RACATW Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) 1. Maras have plenty of defensive capability, and are one of the most durable dps classes in game, if played correctly. 2. The skill cap statement is true for all classes. A sub par virulence sniper or IO merc won't do any better than a sub par marauder. In fact, i'd dare say that a sub par mara can do better, as it doesn't have a resource that relies on being kept at a certain point in order to stay high (like heat and energy). 3. Read point 1. 4. Kinda pertaining to point 2, the class can easily bring the pain, even if not as high as the other DPS classes, and the predation and bloodthirst are just icing on the cake. This video though - whoever posted it. It's gold! Anyway, melee dps especially a marauder should do top dps. Edited November 16, 2016 by RACATW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I don't agree pure dps class should top off massively the damage chart in live ops, as they already bring nice utilities to the raid. But mdps should definitively be higher on the dummy, ramp up like anni on top of the dummy parses, like we see now, and burst like carnage about on par with the sustained rdps class. Lightning, Arsenal and Marksman should do the less dummy parsing, as we see now, as burst rdps are the easiest to keep up dummy numbers with in ops. But currently, the way the meta is, being a spec that can tank or heal doesnt do much in HM raids. Its nice for sm to have a dps with a taunt as many ops can then be done single tank and go faster, but thats it. A dps that taunts an HM raid boss is just going to get oneshotted in most case within a few seconds. Offheal? Typically unneffective due to massive pushback and ressource consideration. So unless those are made effective, which I don't think it will, neither do I think marauder and sniper, which bring nice utilities to a raid group, outside their damage, should have a dps advantage in any trees, if not for the fact that arguably, you have 3 different dps spec for the fight, and should a player be proefficient in all 3, you can field respec and take the best spec for the fight you are heading in. Thats the one advantage that dps trees currently have, and should keep. But having one or all of those spec be better than the other classes dps would currently not be fair imo, as both have decent utility ability. A couple of points. - Sorry for the length. I am one of those that feel that a pure DPS class, should do more DPS [potentially, the skill of the player is always a requirement for this]. That said, I have seen more than one person disagree with me on this,and that's fine everyone's entitled to their opinion. None of my comments are intended to denegrate your opinions or are personal in nature. As another poster has already pointed out, Marauders need to have a higher skill set to do well and reach the heights of their DPS potential compared to most other classes. I think [i won't assume] that that is a known and generally accepted fact. Annihilation has among the hardest rotations to maintain. Even carnage, which really doesn't have a hard rotation [its easy to remember, and you pretty much know what you're going to need to do each 'cycle'], it's great speed, while it's greatest asset is also it's greatest potential pitfall because you have to respond that much quicker to things to stay on rotation, this speed can make it difficult to maintain a proper rotation when responding to mechanics and other unforeseeable factors, and messing up the rotations in both these specs comes at a notable dps loss, and with neither spec is it easy to get the rotation back on track quickly [that's worse for annihiliation though do to ramp up time]. The specs are not forgiving of mistakes and forced downtime only compounds the frequency of such instances. Marauders greater DPS also makes them that much more likely to pull agro. This is an extremely common occurrence, and contrary to popular belief, even while being guarded, a marauder can still pull agro [those guard makes such occurrences much more infrequent. Pulling agro happens more with carnage due to it's burst, but happens to Annhilation as well. While pulling agro might be good for the ego, it's extremely bad for survival. DCDs, no matter how good, do not allow you to survive to survive the attentions of an Operation boss for very long. I sometimes get obliterated in seconds. As I tend to pull agro a good deal, this makes the job of the healers in my group all the more difficult. Heavy armor is a great advantage to surviving a bosses attentions, which is something Marauders don't have. You cannot call a Jugg or a PT a glass canon, no matter how good their DPS is. You suggest that self-healing does not play any part in a player's survival in live group content. I have an issue with that suggestion as I see people [non-healers] using self heals in operations all the time [Operatives and sorcs], to say nothing of the fact that off heals can still be used on others which can be of great value when facing hard group content [i see DPS mercs doing so all the time]. A person may choose not to use self heals or off heals in favor of directing their attentions elsewhere, but it's still none the less an option, that if properly and appropriately used can make the difference of success or a wipe. Any way you cut it, it's an added survival mechanism, one which marauders do not have [anni self heals are virtually useless and besides it is only one spec].Any way you cut it, it's an option. Regarding DCDs. Considering the average length of a Operation boss fight, and the length of the cool downs and duration of Mara DCDs, you are looking at a small fraction of time wherein a DCD is active [COP is an exception, perhaps the best DCD in the game]. Undying rage lasts 4 seconds and has 2 and half/3 minute cool down. If you got the opportunity to use it three times in an Operation fight its a lot and that's 12 seconds out of 5-10 minutes, and after 4 seconds, you're still on the verge of death without OUTSIDE assistance. Melee has less uptime than ranged, melee has a much greater likelihood of taking damage compared to ranged or mid-ranged [PT], Melee is very often more effected by raid mechanics, and many raid mechanics are particularly melee unfriendly. You bring up raid utility. Again, bloodthirst is a 10 second buff [a small fraction of time compared to the average length of a boss fight. There are certain fights wherein other utilities may be the better choice that the predation utility [although to be fair, most of the time that's not the case]. They are, nonetheless, both good raid utilities. Being able to switch roles, I simply cannot see any other way to describe that option other than being a good raid utility as well [conditionally]. One may chose not to do so, of course, but it is nonetheless an option that Marauders simply do not have. Furthermore, it is not at all uncommon to see role changes in operations from time to time and it can on certain fights and situations be deal breaker. [To be fair, i see this a lesser counter argument because there is plenty of times this doesn't come into use,]. But it remains an option. Wherein your argument has it's basis in PVE, PVE is not the only mode of play in this game. I think you would agree that your arguments hold less water when it comes to PVP. Self-heal usage by non healers in PVP are the norm. They can make all the difference and those without them suffer a much higher incidence of death. Marauders are the single worst class you can play in PVP given the inherent circumstances one find's in WZs. DCDs are virtually useless in PVP when you are taking damage from more than one sources which is not the exception but rather virtually the rule. I cannot think of one class [all specs] that suffers from survivability issues more than Marauders, and in fact, there are many other classes than do substantially better than marauders on average even when it comes to damage. You can put out some very nice numbers, even with survivability issues as a marauder, but you never see marauders putting out the kinds of numbers [top end] frequently seen but certain other classes [skill of course being a determining factor]. There is a practical side as well. Tanks cannot be ranged. Marauders share close proximity to the tank, so if they pull agro, the boss is not moving substainally, he's merely changing the direction he's facing. What's going to happen now, when Mercs and Snipers who will virtually always be the players that are the furtherest away from the boss, start pulling agro because they will not be putting out the highest dps? The boss is going to tear across the battlefield trying to get his hands on the rDPS who's pulled agro. Now, all the melee are going to have to tear across the battlefield after the boss, which will only further lesson their uptime, to say nothing of wherein the boss is running thru stupid and thus the melee will have to go thru stupid [potentially] if they want to get to the boss. This would either cause greater unecessary damage or greater unnessary downtime for melee. This is where those DPS speced players who will still be able to use taunt will be an exceeding useful and of great raid utility. They will be able to pull the boss back when he starts tearing after the merc or sniper that just grabbed agro. That they will now face the eeire of the boss they just taunted, will not be any different than when a marauder pulls agro. You're right, you won't last long under those circumstances, just like Marauders don't presently. The idea though is for that agro to be temporary. Giving the tank a few seconds to get agro back on the boss. Your suggestion that they should do better DPS on a dummy but not in a boss fight is a bit confusing. What good is doing greater DPS on a dummy, if that same DPS does them no good in an actual live fight? Beyond ego, that's a pointless distinction. Melee have less uptime, they need more DPS to make up for the downtime they suffer, but thats true of all melee, not just pure DPS. When DPS is all you can do, doing less DPS than other classes that can do other things besides just DPS, renders the pure DPS class less desurable for DPS. Why bother? Why would you want a class who's DPS can be outdone by another class that in addition to that better DPS, also can lend some measure to healing, to stealth, greater and more abundent CCs [which are very useful even in PVE], can dirty rez [stealth rez], can off tank, can switch role's if needed, can help the group get around trash mobs [sorcs, Operatives, Aassassins], can use heavy armor [Mercs, Juggs, PTs], can skank tank [pvp], can move enemies around against their will without needing to be in arms reach [push.pull], can put enemies to sleep without agrooing them and who can spam basic attacks at both range as well as melee? Just because someone might not choose to employ their options doesn't mean they don't have those options. Choosing not to excersize those options isn't always the wisest choice. Sure, you can choose to not use off heals while DPSed speced to try and keep the tank standing because you don't want to gimp your DPS, but it the tank goes down, it's quite possible that added DPS isn't going to make a difference. You need the tank to stay standing, you don't always need the DPS. Snipers and Marauders can only do one thing. The thing they are devoted to. The thing that they only exist to do. DPS. These are some of the reasons why I think they should be the best of it. They don't necessarily need to much better at it, but they should be better at it, otherwise you make them to the clearly subpar choice. The differences in DPS out put between dps specs ofallclasses should be notably closer. The idea here is not to make one class/spec significantly higher in DPS out put than another DPS class/spec. I don't see it as being necessary. I would have no issue with a pure DPS class only doing 200-300 DPS higher than any other DPS class/spec. As it stands now and how it will stand in 5.0 you have a 1000 point DPS difference between the Rank 1 and Rank 18. Of course that's gonna piss people off. How could it not? You could have raised the DPS of the under performing DPS specs to bring them in closer margin to the highest DPS specs. The specs that were buffed would be happy because they got much improved DPS and the already good preforming DPS specs would be no worse for the ware and not been gutted, thusly making everyone happy. Win/Win. But yeah, I do think Marauders and Snipers should do the highest DPS. A pure DPS class with two specs at Rank 10 and 11? You make them pointless. Operatives and Mercs are going to be putting out more DPS than even Annihilation. The DPS output Marauders are losing is not undone by a 10 second buff that everyone benefits from. I'd gladly give bloodthirst up to maintain the higher DPS output. Two months from now you are going to be seeing a lot less marauders around. This is why. Edited November 16, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACATW Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Two months from now you are going to be seeing a lot less marauders around. This is why. Honestly they're already rather few and far between because they're simply not a great class - even when in a premade. My opinion from a pvp perspective the only other specs in this game that requires skill on par or greater than a mara are the op healer and merc healer, pyro PT and even then they're not greater than their FOTM counterparts. Can't think of any aside from those really. Edited November 16, 2016 by RACATW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essodu Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1. Maras have plenty of defensive capability, and are one of the most durable dps classes in game, if played correctly. 2. The skill cap statement is true for all classes. A sub par virulence sniper or IO merc won't do any better than a sub par marauder. In fact, i'd dare say that a sub par mara can do better, as it doesn't have a resource that relies on being kept at a certain point in order to stay high (like heat and energy). 3. Read point 1. 4. Kinda pertaining to point 2, the class can easily bring the pain, even if not as high as the other DPS classes, and the predation and bloodthirst are just icing on the cake. Marauders have decent defensive cooldowns, but two of the three are on fairly lengthy cooldowns. One of them doesn't even work on most ops boss mechanics and can easily be completely bypassed by players. Then you've got obfuscate; which is near worthless in ops, and doesn't really seem to make much of a difference in PvP anymore either. It is extremely easy to get oneself killed with even a single mistake regardless of skill level. Your skill cap comparison seems to be somewhat misleading. First of all, marauders very well do need to constantly monitor their rage usage versus their rage intake. A single mistake can leave you rage starved and cost a significant amount of DPS. Annihilation in particular is bad about this. You really can't get away with any mistakes at all if playing Annihilation, though I will concede that Carnage is a bit more forgiving. Again coming back to Annihilation, the spec's lengthy ramp up combined with its long rotation, resource balancing needs, and vulnerability to disruption makes it rather easy to have absolute garbage tier DPS if one is not playing it with a good amount of skill. To touch on the last point, how is it "bringing the pain" if it's consistently losing out to other, less risky DPS classes? Current projections would effectively make it so bloodthirst and predation are the only reason to even bring a marauder to high end PvE content, not to mention the drop off they will undoubtedly experience in PvP. Long story short, a glass cannon needs to be just that; a glass cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 A few points I feel should be made here. 1.) The hybrids are generally significantly more durable. If a marauder botches a mechanic or is unlucky enough in the RNG to be chain targeted with unavoidable mechanics, it's more than likely just straight dead. This same thing, putting aside instant death mechanics, has a very low chance of actually killing a Juggernaut. Other hybrids make up for lack of tankiness by being able to heal themselves. And more importantly than that, these classes can choose to assume a role other than DPS when they're put in a position where their numbers, be it through player error or poor game design, are no longer sufficient for a given task. Pure DPS classes lack this option and therefore suffer significantly more from poor design decisions Marauders are a lot more durable than your average "hybrid". I put " " to hybrid, because there is no real hybrids the way discipline are designed. Carnage has an effective DR and defense that is higher or equal to heavy armor, anni is slightly squishier (they need to buff the self-heals from dot a bit imo) but the class has saber ward, cloak of pain (which gives them a DR close to the tanks for 30 seconds) undying rage and obfuscate, which, while it cannot be used on ops boss, can normally be used on some adds that dps have to deal with. Tbh, which class have you really played in HM? I personnally ran also quite often with Sorc (both spec) and sniper, and I run with people who uses arsenal, and I can tell you as an annihilation marauder (therefore the "squishiest" of the spec between carnage and anni) I am a lot more survivable than most of them. Yes, ops boss in HM will make short work of you, but look how fast your tank go down if the healers die. Assuming you see the pull immediately (which you should with target of target) you have a lot of tools to survive it. But take in mind HM ops are all about not taking damage you aren't supposed to, and should you take it, you aren't supposed to survive it long. That includes avoidable raid damage, and for dps, unwanted attention from the boss. EVERY dps feels like a glass cannon in there. Last night in a DF HM, I was the one that stood beside the tank when our offtank died and shared the cleave with a cooldown. I don't think too many other class could have done that, the cleave left me at around 30% health with Cloak of pain, which wasn't a problem for healers to pick back up. As for the second part, thats a false good point. Any class in the game can have ALL THREE discipline sub-par due to bad design. Currently, assassin and operative dps is totally unwanted, and operatives are the less desired of the 3 healers. As I said but you didnt note in my previous post, the pure dps classes have an extra dps tree, which if done right should give them 3 very different spec with 3 very different strenght and weaknesses. More than one spec being difficult to play, THIS is what requires an higher skill cap from marauder players. By being proefficient in all 3 specs, your marauder has one more choice of damage style than the others for the same gear set. I'm not going to consider "player error" "laziness" in balancing, but anyone regardless of their class should be competitive in the dps scene in live ops. Its not because you are rolling a sorc that you are expected to heals in HM, or a jug that you are expected to tank. 2.) Marauders in particular have a very high skill cap. The gap between the 'average" marauder and one that is truly skilled is very pronounced. Average players won't even be able to draw out three quarters of the class's potential. A tremendous amount of effort, focus, and hand/eye coordination are required to keep up your rotation/priority whilst at the same time performing the plethora of boss mechanics that are aimed your way. Its an mdps class, which means it does have extra challenge. I've said it previously, mdps should have an higher potential dps (read DUMMY parsing) seeing as they have less uptime on boss typically. They are not as pro-efficient as target switching than most rdps (I say most, since some rdps class do have issues with target switch, due to ressources or DoT setup with cooldowns, and they also should be balanced accordingly). Just that means that a player that knows a fight and is class and is a champion at sticking to the boss will unlock more damage from such a spec, and be the top dps in their team. But sometimes you gotta be crafty about it, all the while avoiding all the mechanics thrown your way. As for "Higher skillset means it should do more dps", I'm sorry but no. Its player choice what kind of challenge they like when playing whatever they want. Some like arsenal or lightning simple rotation, as they prefer focusing on the ops, or they do not want to invest the time required to get annihilation to muscle memory. Other, like me, love the complexity of annihilation or the speed of carnage, and thrive of using those. I want to have FUN and find it challenging to play whatever I'm playing. But thats personnal choice, balancing has nothing to do with that. Balancing means, in a perfect world, that all classes have the same potential. That some are easy mode and others aren't doesnt matter that much. 3.) Marauder has zero survivability outside of Undying Rage. If that's on CD and you get in trouble, you're pretty much SOL. Being a "glass cannon" without the "cannon" would probably be quite off putting to players. Which brings us back to point 1 in a roundabout way, which I've already answered. Plenty of survival tools there, its a typical case of thinking grass is always greener on your neighbourg' side. for the most part, its not. By far marauder are currently the sturdiest mdps ops wise there is. Jug's main defensive cooldown is enrage defense, which, which is EXTREMELY powerful at dealing with lots of small hits or dots, is not nearly effective enough to deal with the heavy blows ops boss mostly do. 4.) Marauder does present some nice utility in the forms of Bloodthirst and Predation, but that is all it brings to the table aside from damage. The class as a whole exists purely to bring the pain. So bearing these four things in mind, why shouldn't all three marauder specs pretty much stay above average? Besides, dummy parses only mean so much. If we use Annihilation's spot as fifth as the example, I believe it won't be hard to conclude that it'll be much lower than current projections once fight mechanics are brought into the equation. The most powerful class buff in the game and the ability to break ALL roots and snares on the group every 30 seconds and move everyone at 50% extra speed is "just a nice bit of utility"? and thats its "all it brings to the table" ? What else could you want? Its already 2 EXTREMELY sought after abilities, especially since pred now can (and should) be specced to work on a cooldown rather than from the fury system, which used to force you to gimp your dps to provide it. Predation is probably the single most useful utility in the game as far as keeping groups alive through some time sensitive area mechanics or group-wide snares/roots. Obfuscate can also help deal with hard hitting adds, altough it is rather situational in operations, so its more of a solo godsent. But please, do name me what more sought after utilities ANY other class bring that makes those 2 look meh. Because, I personnaly cannot think of a class that has significantly more utility than marauder does. 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Essodu Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I've used Sorc, Assassin, Marauder, Juggernaut, Powertech, Mercenary, and Smuggler in HMs and NiMs as both DPS and tank across my years of playing this game, though I do confess I've never healed in any ops -- I simply don't have the mindset of a healer. In any case, I might not play all of those anymore, but I have made sure to remain familiar with how they operate in case I ever find myself with enough free time on my hands to resume raiding, in which case I would need to pick up whatever class is the strongest at that time in order to be competitive at my preferred level of play. As for the skill cap, there is a certain ratio of effort to reward that is generally maintained in MMOs. It's long been a thing that the harder the class is to play, the more powerful it is compared to the easier ones when placed in the right hands. Throwing that away may be fine for those that play marauder purely for the challenge, but no longer having any shot at pulling top end numbers regardless of skill level isn't going to sit well with people that chose the class for its capabilities. I happen to enjoy the marauder playstyle--it's easily my favorite class, but I will admit that I'm not exactly pleased to know that the amount of effort that goes into said playstyle may no longer yield appropriate results. As for the mention of having three DPS specs being the balancing factor, I'm afraid that's not how their balancing works. The game is not designed around frequently changing specs to suit a particular fight, though I do agree that all players wanting to see high end content should make certain they are able to do so. There is also the fact that Fury has absolutely no place in PvE whatsoever. It is not even competitive for cleave heavy fights anymore--Carnage will always beat it hands down, and I'm reasonably certain Annihilation would as well. Its viability is even less on single target. The fact that Carnage appears to be falling down to near-Fury levels in 5.0 definitely doesn't help matters any either. In any case, it appears we're more or less in agreement that mDPS should have higher dummy DPS than ranged. That's what people in this thread have been getting at. There has been no call for marauder to consistently be the end all be all of DPS, only that having melee DPS in parity -- or behind, as is currentlythe case -- with ranged DPS in dummy parses is a terrible game decision that will strongly negatively effect mDPS in general, but marauder in particular. Edited November 16, 2016 by Essodu Adding a final thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 A couple of points. - Sorry for the length. As another poster has already pointed out, Marauders need to have a higher skill set to do well and reach the heights of their DPS potential compared to most other classes. I think [i won't assume] that that is a known and generally accepted fact. Annihilation has among the hardest rotations to maintain. Even carnage, which really doesn't have a hard rotation [its easy to remember, and you pretty much know what you're going to need to do each 'cycle'], it's great speed, while it's greatest asset is also it's greatest potential pitfall because you have to respond that much quicker to things to stay on rotation, this speed can make it difficult to maintain a proper rotation when responding to mechanics and other unforeseeable factors, and messing up the rotations in both these specs comes at a notable dps loss, and with neither spec is it easy to get the rotation back on track quickly [that's worse for annihiliation though do to ramp up time]. The specs are not forgiving of mistakes and forced downtime only compounds the frequency of such instances. Carnage actually profits from downtime, as it allows them to reset their initial burst. When jumping back. The adds in Calphayus 1st phase future, soa, the corruptor adds in draxus etc all are very good exemple of where a burst class like carnage will shine from downtime. Messing up or restarting a rotation can be annoying to all spec equally, player error is not much more forgiving for sustained rdps, sometimes even less so due to their energy regen being negatively affected under 60%. This is a generic statement about all dps, I',m sorry, and marauders are not less or more prone to it than any other dps spec in the game by class, its really something that differentiate specs, as some are easier to get back into (read MM sniper as the easiest, but also the lowest dummy parsing spec, as it should be) and anni as the hardest, and highest dummy parsing spec. Marauders greater DPS also makes them that much more likely to pull agro. This is an extremely common occurrence, and contrary to popular belief, even while being guarded, a marauder can still pull agro [those guard makes such occurrences much more infrequent. Pulling agro happens more with carnage due to it's burst, but happens to Annhilation as well. While pulling agro might be good for the ego, it's extremely bad for survival. DCDs, no matter how good, do not allow you to survive to survive the attentions of an Operation boss for very long. I sometimes get obliterated in seconds. As I tend to pull agro a good deal, this makes the job of the healers in my group all the more difficult. Heavy armor is a great advantage to surviving a bosses attentions, which is something Marauders don't have. You cannot call a Jugg or a PT a glass canon, no matter how good their DPS is. As for the pulling aggro part, thats a tank issue, assuming you drop your threat, and even if you do not (sometimes I have to keep camouflage for the purge part, and I warn the tank of it) a good tank will have no issues keeping you. A friend of mine kept karraga on her tank geared in 180 gear, while I was doing my best to troll her and pull with my 224 mara (checked starparse after, I spiked 9k dps, pulled an adrenal and didnt threat dump). She simply knows her tanking very well, and used her taunts optimally. After that she could have sat and taunted on cd to keep her threat. But balancing a dps dcds over the fact they "pull aggro" is not a good argument, as it would be a tank issue. Since, as said in the previous exemple of my friend with her 180 geared tank in sm karraga, a good tank will hold aggro on you easily, guard or no guard. Guard just makes their job slightly easier, and lessen the burst spike some class have with their opening. So in your case, I'm sorry, but find better tanks, its clearly a L2P issue for them if you pull that much outside natural threat dumping mechanic of some bosses. (as extra reading, look up how taunt really work threat wise in SWTOR) As for jug or PT being glass cannons in HM ops, you bet I can. What kind of DR do you think a jug or PT has? Its around 35%. Now I'd invite you to check your carnage marauder DR in fight with the spec. Assuming 220 armorings, they have around 25% from medium armor, 2% in the defensive form utility (which should always be taken) 2% from the tree in permanence and 6% from stacks build by ataru form (which should be up and maintained from the first few seconds). This brings them to roughly 35% as well With the same 220 armoring, vengeance jug have 31% DR from armor, and 5% from their spec for 36%. I wouldnt call 1% massive DR difference. Also marauder have better DR to internal and elemental damage that bypasses armor. Anni is squishier, but thats a spec issue, not a class one, I'm sorry, and it should be looked at as it is. But straight from armor? 6% difference. Not exactly ground breaking. You suggest that self-healing does not play any part in a player's survival in live group content. I have an issue with that suggestion as I see people [non-healers] using self heals in operations all the time [Operatives and sorcs], to say nothing of the fact that off heals can still be used on others which can be of great value when facing hard group content [i see DPS mercs doing so all the time]. A person may choose not to use self heals or off heals in favor of directing their attentions elsewhere, but it's still none the less an option, that if properly and appropriately used can make the difference of success or a wipe. Any way you cut it, it's an added survival mechanism, one which marauders do not have [anni self heals are virtually useless and besides it is only one spec].Any way you cut it, it's an option. Just because someone might not choose to employ their options doesn't mean they don't have those options. Choosing not to excersize those options isn't always the wisest choice. Sure, you can choose to not use off heals while DPSed speced to try and keep the tank standing because you don't want to gimp your DPS, but it the tank goes down, it's quite possible that added DPS isn't going to make a difference. You need the tank to stay standing, you don't always need the DPS. Not saying its totally useless, but nearly. Many things can affect how useful it is, but primarily, mostly healing by itself gets very ressource taxing, and most spec cannot do it without severly gimping their dps, and its not going to be very efficient. Mostly they have a way to cleanse themselves, which is the more useful thing in HM ops, but so can marauder if specced into it (granted it does require a point of utility). So sure, its in their suite of tools, and it deserve a place in your bar, but I can count on one hand the times I saw offheal from a merc or a sorc to make a real difference, or saving the day or the tank. The output is just not there. Merc's having their instant emergency heals baseline are perhaps the exception to this, as throwing it out on the tank is potentially very good, but tbh I don't know why they have that baseline and not healing scan. On sorc's part, they have a free nice self-heal, but they also rock a lot less DR from armor. Which I believe was a valid point for you before no? As far as operative goes, melee dps that has 0 DCDs. Really not in a good place in PvE. Those, I agree, are not in a good place, and should this post be about them I wouldnt be arguing. Regarding DCDs. Considering the average length of a Operation boss fight, and the length of the cool downs and duration of Mara DCDs, you are looking at a small fraction of time wherein a DCD is active [COP is an exception, perhaps the best DCD in the game]. Undying rage lasts 4 seconds and has 2 and half/3 minute cool down. If you got the opportunity to use it three times in an Operation fight its a lot and that's 12 seconds out of 5-10 minutes, and after 4 seconds, you're still on the verge of death without OUTSIDE assistance. if you have to use undying rage 3 times in an operations boss fight, someone is doing something wrong. Plain and simple. And the fact you can survive it 3 times is statement enough of the class strength, not its weakness. Also, all the powerful dcds that cover a wide range of damage type have long cds. The shortest is probably the Bounty hunter's energy shield, but its also less potent, and currently their sole DCD (altough thats about to change). Regardless, wit CoP, Undying rage, and blade ward, you are well placed enough to take on moderate damage at times, and deal with some oh crap moment as well. Undying rage being an emergency dcd, I do believe its in their nature to delay death giving the CHANCE of outside assistance. Its 2 and a half minute cd, can be brough to 2 minute cd and 6 sec duration if specced into it. I'm assuming you refer to the sorc's bubble now, when you mean "dcd" that doesn't leave you near death, well the sorc bubble may be very nice, but it has its drawback. longer cooldown than undying rage, requires you to CC yourself for a few seconds, AND the nice part is an heroic utility that requires you to either give up mobility or the 30% AoE DR to take it. Also, its the sorc only real DCD that doesn't include running away or healing oneself (which is hard to do if you got oneshotted) You bring up raid utility. Again, bloodthirst is a 10 second buff [a small fraction of time compared to the average length of a boss fight. There are certain fights wherein other utilities may be the better choice that the predation utility [although to be fair, most of the time that's not the case]. They are, nonetheless, both good raid utilities. Being able to switch roles, I simply cannot see any other way to describe that option other than being a good raid utility as well [conditionally]. One may chose not to do so, of course, but it is nonetheless an option that Marauders simply do not have. Furthermore, it is not at all uncommon to see role changes in operations from time to time and it can on certain fights and situations be deal breaker. [To be fair, i see this a lesser counter argument because there is plenty of times this doesn't come into use,]. But it remains an option. BT is a class buff, used to be unique but now several AC has them. Its pretty standard, and BT is arguably the most powerful of them. Now predation is awesome. It speeds up the whole group, making some mechanics a LOT easier and more forgiving, which is a godsend in HM, contrary to SM where most mechanics can just be ignored, walked through, stopped in to scratch your (insert body part of your choice), answer an SMS, and moved on from after with no real damage. Not only that, but it can break ANY movement impairing effect on the whole raid when specced into it (and most of the time, its going to be) Wherein your argument has it's basis in PVE, PVE is not the only mode of play in this game. I think you would agree that your arguments hold less water when it comes to PVP. Self-heal usage by non healers in PVP are the norm. They can make all the difference and those without them suffer a much higher incidence of death. Marauders are the single worst class you can play in PVP given the inherent circumstances one find's in WZs. DCDs are virtually useless in PVP when you are taking damage from more than one sources which is not the exception but rather virtually the rule. I cannot think of one class [all specs] that suffers from survivability issues more than Marauders, and in fact, there are many other classes than do substantially better than marauders on average even when it comes to damage. You can put out some very nice numbers, even with survivability issues as a marauder, but you never see marauders putting out the kinds of numbers [top end] frequently seen but certain other classes [skill of course being a determining factor]. PvP WZ is a massive unbalanced place right now, and the issue is that PvE and PvP requires totally different skill suites. Proof is, the kings of PvP are crap at PvE, and it can also be told for the opposite. The nerfs they brought to bring some class in line in PvP ruined them in PvE. As for being focused, it shouldnt be survived just through DCDs longer than a few seconds, unless a tank and healer come to the rescue. thats their job after all. A Marauder without his dcds is dead in the water, but not less than a sorc with bubble on cooldown. My main focus is pve, and so is this thread so far, so I won't go too far there. But balancing PvE and PvP is a truly different thing, and BW stubborness at not changing abilities and tree effects, and only gear (which will also be the same come 5.0) is a good explanation of WHY we have so many issues with WZ, and that those issues sometimes borked a class for PvE by nerfing its sustained to keep the burst in check. Tanks cannot be ranged. Marauders share close proximity to the tank, so if they pull agro, the boss is not moving substainally, he's merely changing the direction he's facing. What's going to happen now, when Mercs and Snipers who will virtually always be the players that are the furtherest away from the boss, start pulling agro because they will not be putting out the highest dps? The boss is going to tear across the battlefield trying to get his hands on the rDPS who's pulled agro. Now, all the melee are going to have to tear across the battlefield after the boss, which will only further lesson their uptime, to say nothing of wherein the boss is running thru stupid and thus the melee will have to go thru stupid [potentially] if they want to get to the boss. This would either cause greater unecessary damage or greater unnessary downtime for melee. This is where those DPS speced players who will still be able to use taunt will be an exceeding useful and of great raid utility. They will be able to pull the boss back when he starts tearing after the merc or sniper that just grabbed agro. That they will now face the eeire of the boss they just taunted, will not be any different than when a marauder pulls agro. You're right, you won't last long under those circumstances, just like Marauders don't presently. The idea though is for that agro to be temporary. Giving the tank a few seconds to get agro back on the boss. Best case scenario, tank manages to retaunt over you a few seconds after and it was mostly useless. Worse case scenario, your taunt comes 2 second after the tank uses his, boss go firmly on you, or offtank has to blow his taunt to save you, an add comes and wipe the raid, and your raid lead kicks you out for being stupid. If you noticed, most tanks coordinate their taunt in a raid not to override each others, and assume the tank with current threat will get it back. Therefore the tank will not coordinate with you. When such an occurance happen, as melee just stay there till tank reposition the boss, but mostly it shouldnt happen, unless you as a melee dps are really not pulling the numbers, as melee range pulls at a lesser threshold over the tank threat than ranged does (you don't pull from being 1 threat over the tank, but around 10%, and 35% for rdps). So it means, real pull from tank outside of start are not seen often, and means there's a massive tanking issue and DPS issue from your melee, as their ranged counterpart are 25% over you. The sole place a taunt is really useful I can think off is Soa since its single tanked and the tank can be mind-trapped. Now, Soa is not exactly a challenging fight, and whoever gets the threat when it happens can kite him around as much as you. Exception being a pug group, and person that gets him has no clue what to do with him. Other than that, it can be used to help the tank build initial threat, but you have to coordinate closely with them, and most tanks dont require it. Its like offering your hand to someone who fell on their butt. They'll probably take it and use it to hoist themselves up, but in retrospect it wasn't that hard for them to get back on their feet on their own. So as far as having a "dps with a taunt" goes, the best utility you actually bring is allowing single tank queue for GF SM ops. Sorry, but its far from being a I]great raid utility[/i]. Melee has less uptime than ranged, melee has a much greater likelihood of taking damage compared to ranged or mid-ranged [PT], Melee is very often more effected by raid mechanics, and many raid mechanics are particularly melee unfriendly. Your suggestion that they should do better DPS on a dummy but not in a boss fight is a bit confusing. What good is doing greater DPS on a dummy, if that same DPS does them no good in an actual live fight? Beyond ego, that's a pointless distinction. Melee have less uptime, they need more DPS to make up for the downtime they suffer, but thats true of all melee, not just pure DPS. I brought this earlier part of your text down, since both have the same answer. Actually you answer your own question as to why dummy parses (which are typically used like in bant's optimal stat thread, or parsely) are not the same for all classes. Also I did say "melee dps should do more dummy parse" without ever saying marauder should top them for being pure dps. I did say Annihilation should be on top, since its a ramp up, sustained melee spec. Breaks in the fight hurts it a lot more than other specs, its affected by close range mechanic, AND it doesnt have burst on demand for burst phase. Its the spec, even if perfectly played, that is the most likely to see massive dps drop from dummy to live. Even on nice anni friendly fights, my dummy dps of over 7k drops to 6.2k single target. a dummy doesnt move, doesnt attack you, doesnt force you to stop dps a few seconds every now and then and you can concentrate your full attention on the rotation, as your ship is a fairly safe spot with no raid wide mechanics. When DPS is all you can do, doing less DPS than other classes that can do other things besides just DPS, renders the pure DPS class less desurable for DPS. Why bother? Why would you want a class who's DPS can be outdone by another class that in addition to that better DPS, also can lend some measure to healing, to stealth, greater and more abundent CCs [which are very useful even in PVE], can dirty rez [stealth rez], can off tank, can switch role's if needed, can help the group get around trash mobs [sorcs, Operatives, Aassassins], can use heavy armor [Mercs, Juggs, PTs], can skank tank [pvp], can move enemies around against their will without needing to be in arms reach [push.pull], can put enemies to sleep without agrooing them and who can spam basic attacks at both range as well as melee? Nice. What class does ALL that? I want it. You can't compare EVERYONE utility to one class lol. You have yours, they have theirs. Most of those brought here I've explained already why they are not perhaps that great or geater than your own. A good ops team have a diverse amount of class in it to profit from those many utilities (some i've already debunked as bad idea tough, mostly dps offtanking in HM ops, which should be the benchmark for pve balancing, not Story "rollfaceonkeyboardfullclear" mode. Snipers and Marauders can only do one thing. The thing they are devoted to. The thing that they only exist to do. DPS. These are some of the reasons why I think they should be the best of it. They don't necessarily need to much better at it, but they should be better at it, otherwise you make them to the clearly subpar choice. The differences in DPS out put between dps specs ofallclasses should be notably closer. The idea here is not to make one class/spec significantly higher in DPS out put than another DPS class/spec. I don't see it as being necessary. I would have no issue with a pure DPS class only doing 200-300 DPS higher than any other DPS class/spec. As it stands now and how it will stand in 5.0 you have a 1000 point DPS difference between the Rank 1 and Rank 18. Of course that's gonna piss people off. How could it not? You could have raised the DPS of the under performing DPS specs to bring them in closer margin to the highest DPS specs. The specs that were buffed would be happy because they got much improved DPS and the already good preforming DPS specs would be no worse for the ware and not been gutted, thusly making everyone happy. Win/Win. But yeah, I do think Marauders and Snipers should do the highest DPS. A pure DPS class with two specs at Rank 10 and 11? You make them pointless. Operatives and Mercs are going to be putting out more DPS than even Annihilation. The DPS output Marauders are losing is not undone by a 10 second buff that everyone benefits from. I'd gladly give bloodthirst up to maintain the higher DPS output. Two months from now you are going to be seeing a lot less marauders around. This is why. Since this looks like a conclusion i'll answer with mine. Those are dummy numbers, and you contradict your earlier statement that suggest you understood the difference. Dummy numbers don't hold the same for all classes. Marksman for the sniper, especially is a spec with EXTREME burst, 0 target preparation, great range and that doesnt suffer from downtime. On the contrary, they reset their burst and go again with joy when boss comes back. On top of that they have very strong aoe, suppressive fire still being the sole survivor of the 3.0 AoE mad damage buff. The actual live ops spread is going to be much closer, as MM doesnt lose as much dps from its dummy parse compared to its live ops. What I say, is to balance fairly not with what someone can whack on a dummy, but depending on the spec type, damage and how they deal with certain situation and LIVE ops. I expect specs to shine in some fight and less in others. I expect a marauder or sniper have 3 very different spec, and knowing all 3 of them means you can respec in an ops to always have and use that best spec for the fight being a dps advantage, and a good one. Sniper can be pure burst, pure sustained, or pure aoe. Pretty nice I say. Marauder's fury used to be awesome aoe, but obviously that got nerfed due to pvp smashmonkeys. Since healing and dps have different set bonus and some stat difference, you still need to swich pieces around, so getting a 2nd set for a toon, or having an alt geared are roughly the same, with the possible exception of you left side, but regardless its not a massive difference, and if you need to totally change role, changing toons isnt that long. Its not like we don't all have alts everywhere with DvL. So while its perfectly possible that you carry a full tank set on your dps jug, respec in the op from dps to tank in sm, as many thing can be single tanked, the later and more challenging HM ops require 2 tank at all time, so its a moot point. If for some reason you as a dps jug, and whatever the offtank is decide to switch role and you both have another set on you (his, a dps set, yours a tanking one) well cool, but how is it a raid advantage? Just 2 names that switched position in the frames. HM ops test every member of the raid in their spec. DPS on their ability to dish out damage under pressure, without dying or taking uncessary damage, healers on triaging and ressource management (HPS vs EHPS in a way) and tank in positionning, damage management, and threat management with your partner. It doesnt care if you have a fancy taunt or not, if you use it, you'll be killed. And if you have some heals to throw around, most likely you are not going to be be proefficient enough at it for the kind of mechanic and damage HM ops have. So having 3 dps trees to choose from IS the advantage pure dps class have, assuming the player bothers to learn them all to a workable level at the very least. If your idea of a "dps class above others" as in, it would ONLY bring lot of damage, then you could discuss it, but it would mean removing all utilities from those classes, as their "utility" would be considered to be higher raid damage. Also would have the downgrade effect to attracting all the ego-powered players that "wanna pull" and "be the best evah on starparse and parsely". Don't forget many parsely live ops parse submitted are fluffed by useless aoe. The raid lose more damage if a carnage mara runs off to kill adds to fluff with aoe his parse, and run back, rather than have the rdps mop them up from afar with their aoes. Worse I've seen is a rather well known Carnage/Combat player using EVERY berserk with sweeping slash spam on the Warlords HM. Sure he had over 7k dps. Too bad 5k out of 7k healed up after each Warlord died. But grats on having good parsely live ops parses. you are a champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threjyan Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Since healing and dps have different set bonus and some stat difference, you still need to swich pieces around, so getting a 2nd set for a toon, or having an alt geared are roughly the same, with the possible exception of you left side, but regardless its not a massive difference, and if you need to totally change role, changing toons isnt that long. Its not like we don't all have alts everywhere with DvL.. i can tell you that respeccing from anihilation to carnage for pure PvE environment will take much more them moving only a few pieces. it will even make u swap crystals.. gearing up alts will be such a pain in 5.0 ugghhh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threjyan Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Worse I've seen is a rather well known Carnage/Combat player using EVERY berserk with sweeping slash spam on the Warlords HM. Sure he had over 7k dps. Too bad 5k out of 7k healed up after each Warlord died. But grats on having good parsely live ops parses. you are a champion. as long as u dont bring the bosses from bellow 90% (or is it 80%) they wont heal up - i rememnber seing something on the database about the mechanics of this fight but i cant quite remenber percentages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsetso Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Worse I've seen is a rather well known Carnage/Combat player using EVERY berserk with sweeping slash spam on the Warlords HM. Don't know about cartel WLs but i just love the entrance to bulo. Once i even used BT + adrenal to pad my numbers. Can't really remember what it was but felt godly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted November 18, 2016 Share Posted November 18, 2016 (edited) It's kinda funny knowing that the 2 classes that get a huge spike in survivability will be able to outdps us. Considering that judging from the Sentinel updates. No changes to their sustain, being a melee, this is beyond humor. However, I believe that these stats (dps records) are slightly inconsistent and lack certain factors that consider the update in mind. I can say that for a fact. Because just by looking at the changes, I can see a whole new style of opener from Sentinel that is not even close to anything it's come to before. So who knows. Simply put, having a 75% damage amp potential for Annihilation/Watchman, will take their ramp to a whole new level. Like most things, the stage is set for Sentinel to be put on the precipice of a "dead class" and left to simply prove the whole community wrong once again. As a Watchman main, I don't agree with these changes, they lack value, and certain factors that stripped Sentinel of being the best class have not been addressed and with Bioware's track record... will probably never will. I guess I should be glad, I changed my expectations a long time ago, and they were low to begin with, but this is a whole new level of absurd. So we're now a stand-alone class, no longer identified as a Knight... does this mean Guardian's will stop stealing our core talents? because we're down 5 to 1, just saying... We're also the only class without a static sustain cooldown... jee thanks Don't suppose bioware would consider restoring our Juyo form ramp pooling seeing as every class has methods to keep themself alive.. no? Tch On a positive note, can't wait to see Blade Barrage's new animation. Hope it looks cool Some of these changes look and sound cool, there's no denying that. Can't wait to see what happens Edited November 18, 2016 by Bonzenaattori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 in a PvP perspective, i wait to test the new carnage ability which will do like electronet effect for 1.5sec (each 15sec). if the damage is good too, this can be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 (edited) The really interesting change is with that new Pacify\Obfuscate utility. I'm not talking about about 75% redo but about being able to use finisher on any %. In 5.0 we are on 5th spot by DPS. But did that guy use new utility? Did he have dispath every 45 secs? What do you guys about new WM rotation? Probably run with Inspiration = max focus + Force Camo 48% damage amp and open with Overlord saber > Blade barrage, zealous strike > Melt > Merciless > Cauterize The camo would be a good window to drop adrenals and whatnot also Just off the top of my head Curious to see what would happen, I'm very curious about blade barrage, there's no mention of it's damage being changed to fit with the 1.5 global instead of a 3 second window and you're looking at probably 25-30k in a single strike if it's damage pool is the same. I can picture a bunch of ppl whining about that to no end, but i guess we'll see when we see Also how would dispatch every 45 second even work when you can't pacify raid bosses. Edited November 20, 2016 by Bonzenaattori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Probably run with Inspiration = max focus + Force Camo 48% damage amp and open with Overlord saber > Blade barrage, zealous strike > Melt > Merciless > Cauterize The camo would be a good window to drop adrenals and whatnot also Just off the top of my head Curious to see what would happen, I'm very curious about blade barrage, there's no mention of it's damage being changed to fit with the 1.5 global instead of a 3 second window and you're looking at probably 25-30k in a single strike if it's damage pool is the same. I can picture a bunch of ppl whining about that to no end, but i guess we'll see when we see Also how would dispatch every 45 second even work when you can't pacify raid bosses. Its something to be the most hated by the tank lol. Blow your threat drop for a massive damage spike pre-fight lol. Thats mostly aimed at pvp I think. However, 5th dps for anni means its not in a good place to be interesting in ops sadly. ramp up + melee? Its not going to be easy to hold top numbers in live ops. Especially since merc will also be able to do what jug currently do on many boss, stand in bad voluntarily and reflect it back for massive damage to the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essodu Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I have no doubt that many marauders will use the new camo ability to front load their damage at the start of a fight. And if they do that, they're going to rip hate right off the tank and not have any way to get rid of it again. As useful as it might be under the right circumstances, one has to think it would be a bad idea overall. After all, marauders that play their class well have long had to use force camo specifically TO drop their threat--you will inevitably pull hate if you do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Its something to be the most hated by the tank lol. Blow your threat drop for a massive damage spike pre-fight lol. Thats mostly aimed at pvp I think. However, 5th dps for anni means its not in a good place to be interesting in ops sadly. ramp up + melee? Its not going to be easy to hold top numbers in live ops. Especially since merc will also be able to do what jug currently do on many boss, stand in bad voluntarily and reflect it back for massive damage to the boss. no sorry but no. force camo's threat drop is terrible, and if a tank cannot hold sent's opener then there's really no hope for them. And should consider reading what their skills do and how they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I have no doubt that many marauders will use the new camo ability to front load their damage at the start of a fight. And if they do that, they're going to rip hate right off the tank and not have any way to get rid of it again. As useful as it might be under the right circumstances, one has to think it would be a bad idea overall. After all, marauders that play their class well have long had to use force camo specifically TO drop their threat--you will inevitably pull hate if you do not. Not to gainsay your point, which has valid concerns, I think it's important to make a distinction here. Force Camouflage is not a threat drop. It's a threat reduction. It reduces current threat by 50 percent. I have personally found it to be nearly useless in that regard. There are many times I pull threat [which happens to many marauders from time to time, especially in the opener], use force camouflage and it literally does nothing. Now, I'm not saying use force camouflage than immediately start attacking again. You do that you lose all effects from force camouflage immediately, and if you are trying to loss threat attacking isn't the wisest method of doing so =p. My point here is that, I use it, I stop attacking completely, I may even back away and it does absolutely nothing. The boss just still keeps coming in, still chasing after me and still trying to rip my head off. If I do nothing but run, after about 5-7 seconds, he stops trying to pound me into the dirt. With regard to that experience, this has happened with different raid groups Ive been in and with, in countless pugs, in different modes of Operations. I state this so that these occurrences can't be blamed on bad tanks or l2p issues. It works better if you use it before you actually pull threat to lesson the chances of pulling threat. For example if you have already landed to serious damage quickly, and you've cycled through your rotation reliably 4 or 5 times, I find it works better to just use it every so often to continually half your threat at different intervals. This method, unfortunately isn't always practical for obvious reasons. Better still, I find, is to have a healer in the group tell you when to 'drop threat'. They are watching health levels of the group already so it's easier for them to keep an eye on the marauder's threat levels. With burst, your threat can spike very quickly, so what looks manageable at the moment, could change quickly based not only the burst, but also on the actions or things effecting the tank and his available taunts. Healer is keeping a more attentive eye on the tank to begin with out of necessity. If you arrange the frames so that the tank and the marauder who may be known to have a tendency to pull threat are next to each other, it's easier for the healer to keep on eye on the threat levels. This method can work very well in a raid group but it seldom is done in pugs which a good amount of the time aren't using a parser. Without a parser threat levels can't be monitored. In my raid group the healer tells me when to 'drop threat'. Used post agro pull force camouflage is very ineffective in my experience. A good amount of the time a competent tank can rectify the situation relatively quickly, but if taunts are on cool down and an off tank ain't quick on the draw you can hold agro for uncomfortable amounts of time. This is a good time to use Undying rage even if your not close to death. Marauders can't take the kind of beating a boss can dish it for very long. The longer you hold the agro the better chance your gonna get wipe off the face of the earth real fast. When the tank goes down, I know I'm doomed. I healer can help but only for so long, maras just don't have the defenses for it. With regard to using the new force camo ability to front load the damage at the start of the fight. Honestly, given that very often you are pulling threat in the opener anyways, you might as well use it. Fortunately, even when you pull threat in the opener, the tank can usually pull it back rather quickly I find. Also, given that the CD for Force camo is pretty quick [30 seconds] and that the tank will likely have enough taunts to keep control in the opening stage of the fight, this may be a workable tactic. For PVE, it is the only viable time to use this ability. You're not going to use it during the fight unless you are planning to do nothing for 6 seconds to get the full benefit of the ability to maximize the damage bonus, which would be a DPS loss overall I'd imagine. That said, however, during forced downtimes, this would be a very viable tactic to employ, at least damage wise, threat issues aside. This will take some coordination, if you are using voice chat, and work with the tank employing this tactic during forced downtimes, it could be manageable even with threat concerns. There's no way to really be sure though until it can be tested in actual game play tho. At this point its more theory. - You may very well be right. I should add that given my lack of first hand tanking experience I may be working on assumptions that don't pan out with regard to how the use of this ability might effect tanks and you may be in a better position than myself in analyzing it's potential effects. As far as PVP in concerned, I don't see much reason not to employ this ability. The only downside to it, again, maybe the DPS loss of sitting around for 4 or 6 seconds to maximize the damage after the ability has amped up may be greater than the added damage from it once done. Additionally, you could lose all the benefit from it immediately if you get cced quickly once you're ready to light someone's *** up with it, which would suck. In PVP it might be wiser not to take the utility that will extend the duration of force camouflage by 2 seconds [thereby increasing the added damage this ability can provide] due to the uncertainty of whether or not you might be cced before being able to use it for full effect or your target employing stealth, phasewalk, or other movement enhancers that might take them out of your effective range. Given that in all likelihood we will be given only one choice among Legendary utilities [i could be wrong on that of course, I'm not sure], for raiding I personally see Zealous Judgment: [Dispatch refunds 2 focus on targets affected by your Pacify. Additionally, Dispatch is usable on targets affected by your Pacify, regardless of remaining health. Pacify also grants Zealous Judgment, increasing Force and tech defense by 75% for 6 seconds] as a better choice than hidden advance over all. There are, of course, some fights where it might prove to be more advantageous to employ one of the other legendary utilities. For PVP Hidden Advance could be very useful, but in terms of more readily available opportunities of use, Intercessor: [Force Leap grants Intercessor, allowing you to activate Force Leap a second time. Intercessor lasts up to 7.5 seconds and is removed if Force Leap is reused. If Intercessor is not utilized by the end of its duration, Force Leap is placed on a 7.5 second cooldown. Additionally, Force Leap now builds 2 Centering.], might prove more advantageous than hidden advance, depending on the WZ in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 no sorry but no. force camo's threat drop is terrible, and if a tank cannot hold sent's opener then there's really no hope for them. And should consider reading what their skills do and how they work. Uhuh. I'm perfectly aware of how my skill works and what they do. What you seem unaware off, is how threat works in this game, mostly when it factors in to pull and taunts. I do not remember the exact number, but I think within 4m (melee range) of the boss it is 110 or 115% pull threshold, and 120 or 130% over that, so for ranged dps. You don't "pull" from a boss as soon as you go over the tank's threat, or the initial pull WOULD be a rip fest. You pull when you pass the threshold in relation to your position to the boss (so a rdps and an mdps having the exact same threat, the mdps will pull from the tank first, unless the rdps is standing in melee range as well for any reason (ex the tanks in EC)) Now, what matters is, the threat drop, or "threat reduction" if you want to play with words, it reduces your threat by a certain percentage (around 20% if I recall well). So assuming you pulled at 115 threat, 20%*115=22.5 = 92.5 threat. Assuming the tank was at 100 threat when the pull happened and you dropped threat, you are now under the tank's threat. However, the boss is still on you, as the tank has only 108% of your threat, not enough to pull it back. Assuming it was an initial burst, your tps should be roughly lowering and tank should grab back the boss attention shortly. My numbers are totally off my head, as I did not go and research the thread about taunts and threat threshold, what is important is the mechanics of them, and how threat "reductor" work. First, using your threat reduction too early means you will actually drop a very low amount of actual threat points in the start of a fight. Dropping say, 10k threat after doing 50k damage isnt exactly a big ammount, and you can easily make an extra 10k if the tank has a mechanic to avoid or has to move the boss and cannot do his full threat rotation. Using it too late, meaning just after you did pull from the tank, is also not optimal. Assuming you had exact threat scales visible, the moment to drop threat would be JUST before pulling, as this would ensure the largest drop in actual threat. If you pull, keep the threat drop till after the tank taunted off you, as taunts uses the highest threat + I think 30%, as well as protecting the threat for 6 sec. This is also why good tanks should NEVER open with a taunt, but rather get their 2-3 high threat moves as well as the dps burst in before taunting over it 3 times in a row if possible. So your threat will help the tank's taunt along, and as he taunts, you drop threat and gives the best chance of not pulling again. (ex, in the previous exemple, a taunt would take 115+30% so put the tank at 150 threat, rather than 130, which is the highest threat after you dropped+30% (tank's at 100+30%). So it means, effectively if you threat drop after the taunt, you are still at 92 threat, and the tank at 150, giving a better margin to work with before another pull happens. I typically keep my threat drop on cooldown for 2 other times after the first, and as the fight proceed, preventively dropping threat is the best way to keep from pulling, and it shows a good bit in starparse who uses it and who doesnt. As the fight proceed, the higher the threat drop effectiveness becomes, as well as the tanks taunt. Its not strictly necessary, but it does gives the tank a better margin to do their work, and its appreciated. There are some fight, like the council hm where I am unable to do so, since I spec it for cleanse. I normally warn the tank of my utility status, ask for a guard and the tank is careful to apply as many taunt fluff as he can in the first minute of the fight. Tank swap lessen this problem further, with the bosses being firmly on the two tanks, unless they have a mechanic where they drop the threat of their target to force uses of a taunt. So the marauder's thread reductor is not any better or worse than any others in the game, its working as intended and in line with the other. The big difference perhaps is that Force Camouflage does have other uses that you might want it for, utility cleanse, damage reduction, physic's immunity etc). But as I'm dropping threat in fight, I can see my actual threat, with a guard and my threat drop, can go from a 5.8-6k ops fight dps to as low as 3.2-3,4k tps. still using it for the total opposite of what it does, which is having a greater initial burst, is rather ironic, and yes it will make the tank's job a bit harder, especially in pulls where the boss have to be moved and dps jump right on him and follow with their best openers. But smart uses of threat drops when opening (for anni, I typically use it just before proceeding with the 3rd annihilate, so I can dump the full threat of my opening rotation which normally includes 2 berserk) So yes, its teamwork with the tank. Keyword: teamwork. Expect he knows how to handle threat, and make your best effort to handle yours, and knowledge of how it works feels like the least you can do to optimize your threat drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Bonus damage from camo seems meh for pvp. Coz, both in yolos and wzs you use camo in order to run away and heal up. The Pacify youtility on the other hand is really good for pvp. The ability to do additional 10k damage when you applied your dots and used ur main hittings skills alrdy is quite nice. I'm also wondering about that new Inspiration utility that additionally heals u by 1% every time you use a force consuming skill. That utility may play out pretty well for wm in wzs and maybe in yolos. I don't recall every reading about that new Inspiration utility that heals you one percent when using a force consuming skill. Do you recall the source by any chane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzenaattori Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) Uhuh. I'm perfectly aware of how my skill works and what they do. - Okay What you seem unaware off, is how threat works in this game, mostly when it factors in to pull and taunts. Orly? I do not remember the exact number, but I think within 4m (melee range) of the boss it is 110 or 115% pull threshold, and 120 or 130% over that, so for ranged dps. Uh huh You don't "pull" from a boss as soon as you go over the tank's threat, or the initial pull WOULD be a rip fest. You pull when you pass the threshold in relation to your position to the boss (so a rdps and an mdps having the exact same threat, the mdps will pull from the tank first, unless the rdps is standing in melee range as well for any reason (ex the tanks in EC)) Now, what matters is, the threat drop, or "threat reduction" if you want to play with words, it reduces your threat by a certain percentage (around 20% if I recall well). Maybe if your tank is afk and is generating no threat consistently So assuming you pulled at 115 threat, 20%*115=22.5 = 92.5 threat. Wrong but please continue Assuming the tank was at 100 threat when the pull happened and you dropped threat, you are now under the tank's threat. However, the boss is still on you, as the tank has only 108% of your threat, not enough to pull it back. Assuming it was an initial burst, your tps should be roughly lowering and tank should grab back the boss attention shortly. Your argument is inconsistent My numbers are totally off my head, as I did not go and research the thread about taunts and threat threshold, what is important is the mechanics of them, and how threat "reductor" work. First, using your threat reduction too early means you will actually drop a very low amount of actual threat points in the start of a fight. Dropping say, 10k threat after doing 50k damage isnt exactly a big ammount, and you can easily make an extra 10k if the tank has a mechanic to avoid or has to move the boss and cannot do his full threat rotation. Using it too late, meaning just after you did pull from the tank, is also not optimal. [Again assuming your tank isn't consistently building threat as the fight progresses, maybe he's afk] Assuming you had exact threat scales visible, the moment to drop threat would be JUST before pulling, as this would ensure the largest drop in actual threat. If you pull, keep the threat drop till after the tank taunted off you, as taunts uses the highest threat + I think 30%, as well as protecting the threat for 6 sec. So you're point is what exactly This is also why good tanks should NEVER open with a taunt, but rather get their 2-3 high threat moves as well as the dps burst in before taunting over it 3 times in a row if possible. So your threat will help the tank's taunt along, and as he taunts, you drop threat and gives the best chance of not pulling again. (ex, in the previous exemple, a taunt would take 115+30% so put the tank at 150 threat, rather than 130, which is the highest threat after you dropped+30% (tank's at 100+30%). So it means, effectively if you threat drop after the taunt, you are still at 92 threat, and the tank at 150, giving a better margin to work with before another pull happens. I'm talking about a resource that builds damage and you're now talking about tanks using taunts? Wut I typically keep my threat drop on cooldown for 2 other times after the first, and as the fight proceed, preventively dropping threat is the best way to keep from pulling, and it shows a good bit in starparse who uses it and who doesnt. As the fight proceed, the higher the threat drop effectiveness becomes, as well as the tanks taunt. I feel like at this point im being held hostage in a ops if I play like you Its not strictly necessary, but it does gives the tank a better margin to do their work, and its appreciated. There are some fight, like the council hm where I am unable to do so, since I spec it for cleanse. I normally warn the tank of my utility status, ask for a guard and the tank is careful to apply as many taunt fluff as he can in the first minute of the fight. Tank swap lessen this problem further, with the bosses being firmly on the two tanks, unless they have a mechanic where they drop the threat of their target to force uses of a taunt. You lost me at strictly necessary, are we talking about the same thing? So the marauder's thread reductor is not any better or worse than any others in the game, its working as intended and in line with the other. The big difference perhaps is that Force Camouflage does have other uses that you might want it for, utility cleanse, damage reduction, physic's immunity etc). But as I'm dropping threat in fight, I can see my actual threat, with a guard and my threat drop, can go from a 5.8-6k ops fight dps to as low as 3.2-3,4k tps. A ramp class taking aggro at the start. Oh the inhumanity x) still using it for the total opposite of what it does, which is having a greater initial burst, is rather ironic, and yes it will make the tank's job a bit harder, especially in pulls where the boss have to be moved and dps jump right on him and follow with their best openers. But smart uses of threat drops when opening (for anni, I typically use it just before proceeding with the 3rd annihilate, so I can dump the full threat of my opening rotation which normally includes 2 berserk) Only a bit. Did you even read what you type yourself? So yes, its teamwork with the tank. Keyword: teamwork. Expect he knows how to handle threat, and make your best effort to handle yours, and knowledge of how it works feels like the least you can do to optimize your threat drop. What the f.... -sigh- when people take theory crafting too seriously, and lose themselves in their own train of thought when trying to make a point and then go onto something completely irrelevent *points upwards* This conv is pointless so I'm not going to refute your 'points', because you're missing the main one Edited November 21, 2016 by Bonzenaattori Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 I didnt check the official class changes...Thought that they posted them all...: D Basically, the utility we alrdy have ( the one that gives 12 focus every time u uze inspiration) in 5.0 will be moved to Legendary tier and additionaly u will be healed by 1% every time u use any focus consuming skill at any time. Again, its not official info yet and it might be a subject to change but I see no harm talking about it right now since 5.0 will go live in a week. I did check the official release notes on class changes as well as the 5.0 datamine info on jedipedia after I read your post cuz I thought perhaps somehow I missed it. Neither source has that listed so that's why I asked. I don't usually take the present utility 'Thirst of Rage', [that's what it's called for Marauders] except if I'm dummy parsing. For raids it doesn't really seem much worth the utility point just for rage bonus one time. Rage building with the opener gives more than enough rage for your opener sequence. But, if it provided some healing everytime you used a focus using skill, that might well be useful. That actually seems very good. During a fight you are constantly using abilities that consume focus [or rage in the case of marauders] most of your attacks consume focus/rage, so you'd be getting healed by 1 percent throughout most of your rotation actions. Only time you wouldn't be was when employing rage/focus building attacks, like basic attack, battering assault, or dual saber throw. The only issue I see with it is that it would be almost pointless during your opener because you won't have taken any damage yet, you might take some within the first ten seconds, but generally not much. Also there is the issue by it's very nature it's limited. It's 10 seconds maybe once or twice at most during your average boss fight. Realistically, the most you could probably hope for is a 10 percent heal of your total health once or twice [more than once would require a fight to last over ten minutes due to the cooldown on inspiration/bloodthirst, In most cases you would only have the opportunity to use it once and that's almost always going to be during your opener when you are at full health. Looked at in those terms, it really is kind of useless. With regard to PVP, it's usefulness isn't much better. Some Wzs will go over ten minutes, so you might be able to use this at least twice, but once again, you are probably not looking at more than a 10 percent heal of your total health per use [if that much], and in PVP that's virtually nothing. Your average med pac will do considerable more than that [35 percent]. Add to that that it will cost you a Legendary utility slot, other choices would be better over all. If they had put this on Berserk or Cloak of Pain, it would be well worth it, but under the proposed conditions I can only see this being useful conditionally. Most of the time, I don't think it would be worth the utility point in the legendary bracket. Too bad, it could have been designed with a more practical usage platform. Perhaps at release it may have under gone some change making it more practical. Fingers crossed. Thanks for letting me know. Much obliged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaladan Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 for PvP : in anhi this can be an interesting add to your heal and rage management. even in carnage, why not (many low rage cost abilities and often with alacrity) i will try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsetso Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 The thing is it seems that this utility work full time. Not only when your inspiration activated. This utility must be a pretty much must have. Imagine this one + Saber Ward heal xD 1% of total health doesn't seem really impressive but assuming 100k hp it'd be about 750 hps which is about operatives' hots at the moment. Adding the heals from hungering i'd say anni is probably going to be a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsetso Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Seems like this time we will have lots of different and actually userful utilities at the last tier : ) The problem is we can only take 2. And in the legendary tier i can see at least 5 i want to take.Choices matter apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essodu Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 1% of total health doesn't seem really impressive but assuming 100k hp it'd be about 750 hps which is about operatives' hots at the moment. Adding the heals from hungering i'd say anni is probably going to be a lot better. Oh Christ, don't let them know that. The last time annihilation was self-sufficient they clubbed its self-healing until there was almost nothing left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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