What is the Logic behind removing Iconic Class Abilities?

[Falensawino]

Create a bunch of place holder characters and leave them with no advanced class. See what happens to them when 5.0 launches

 

There won't be class abilities. There will only advanced class abilities, in 5.0 new characters start with advanced classes at creation screen.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Falensawino

[coldcite]

Removing cover from healing scoundrel/operatives is a mistake, too.

Technically they are "ranged" and cover could be used as another layer of defense sometimes, can't say I'm happy with its removal.

[DarthEnrique]

Hm. Tad confused about phasewalk. It seems perfect for shadows/sins (even "lore-wise," fitting in with the rest of their abilities, relying on stealth and being sneaky and whatnot).

 

Not too happy about losing Dirty Kick for my gunslinger. I mean...yeah, I don't use it very much - but it's still an incredibly fun ability. Even if some of the bosses (in solo play!) I use it on aren't affected by it... Dirty Kick Grand Moff Kilran. Dirty Kick various members of the Dark Council/Darth Malgus. Dirty Kick

 

Skavak. Bonus points if that ends up being what, ultimately, kills him. Poetic justice at its absolute finest.

 

For that matter, I Dirty Kicked DARTH FLIPPING REVAN. And then promptly died in the ensuing fight, because I was too busy falling off my chair in hysterical laughter.

 

...so yeah. I'm a bit miffed about that. Because there's something hilariously beautiful about my tiny, body-type-one female gunslinger Dirty Kicking her way across the galaxy, purely for the bragging rights. ("I kicked [insert the name of any highly influential person here] between the legs! Who else can claim they did THAT??")

 

Anyway, other than those things, I was expecting these changes to be a lot worse. XD Overall, they seem like fairly decent changes. 'Course, time will tell what they're like in practice, when 5.0 goes live, but for the most part they seem all right.

 

Now if they would only remove it from NPCs I hate being kicked in the You-Know-What area.Yay for this removal!

 

RIP Assassins/Shadows... We shall miss you...

Edited November 8, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[SithKoriandr]

They did it with Propel and Shock for Shadows/Assassins before and now, it's just going farther by getting rid of them all together.

 

Flame Thrower? I used it on my Arsenal Merc! Smuggler's kick to the groin, I used it too. :/ Now, I didn't really use their opposite classes version though.

[Krazhez]

Removing cover from healing scoundrel/operatives is a mistake, too.

Technically they are "ranged" and cover could be used as another layer of defense sometimes, can't say I'm happy with its removal.

 

um cover does nothing for operatives... Their highest dps skills are melee, sniping operatives are laughable

[Lunafox]

I don't like these changes either, I like making use of the skills, but quite honestly, at this point, I can pretty much kill just about anything with my default attack. One button, that's all I need.

[Deaconik]

um cover does nothing for operatives... Their highest dps skills are melee, sniping operatives are laughable

 

Have you read the healing part of that post?

[Uruare]

TBH, I rarely used flamethrower anyway. If its going away, I'll welcome the free slot on my bar.

[Krazhez]

Have you read the healing part of that post?

 

Okay? and he brought up that it's a ranged class so I tangented. Cover still does nothing for operatives.

[Deaconik]

Okay? and he brought up that it's a ranged class so I tangented. Cover still does nothing for operatives.

 

Sure, I am not defending his/hers choice. But bringing up snipe for a healer is, kinda, wrong Though I have to admit I have seen such players

[Krazhez]

Sure, I am not defending his/hers choice. But bringing up snipe for a healer is, kinda, wrong Though I have to admit I have seen such players

 

Sorry, I had just seen a snipe only operative in an fp just before i posted that, so i couldn't resist.

[Tsillah]

Removing phase walk from assassins/shadows does seem to be the most significant change mentioned and it's become sort of iconic for the class as people say, but that's only because it's taken BWA too long to remove it.

 

Mind you, we haven't seen the full complement of changes and I've heard some other stuff about stealth becoming more powerful and such, so we'll see. But overall I don't see the need for a stealth class to have phase walk on top of their ability to stealth out of combat.

 

Someone mentioned that their mara or whatever is less squishy, well they don't have stealth do they? So they need to be less squishy. People naturally would like to have everything in one class. Of course at the same time we have to recognise that, again, these changes are clearly meant for PvP and PvE suffers from it.

 

Now, I don't play my assassin tank much as I prefer Juggernaut tanking but could someone enlighten me why a tank cannot do without an ability like phase walk? You have a speed boost and a pull ability right?

[JamieKirby]

From experience, people t end to complain BEFORE things get released and then think 'this isn't half bad' and then they feel like idiots, having hissy fits over nothing, i personally like the changes they are doing, i mean the RNG part is not so good, but moaning about it will change nothing, RNG is the common thing now with F2P MMOs.

[Tsillah]

RNG is the common thing now with F2P MMOs.

 

That's a pretty silly comment considering that the RNG people are complaining about is for gearing in Galactic Command which is a subscriber-only part of the game.

 

Mind you, apparently WoW has introduced RNG in endgame gearing as well, which is not an F2P game either.

 

So really, bringing F2P MMOs in as a comparison makes zero sense.

[SteveTheCynic]

These changes are severely the wrong idea and I wanna know what logic and reasoning went into this nonsense.

I'm so disappointed that Eric didn't say that other changes had made Sins/Shadows too mobile and that they removed Phase Walk to reduce their mobility. Oh. Wait. He did say that.

[Deaconik]

I'm so disappointed that Eric didn't say that other changes had made Sins/Shadows too mobile and that they removed Phase Walk to reduce their mobility. Oh. Wait. He did say that.

 

You mean the broken Shadow Stride? Sure, every tank who flies over Boss into despair knows how this mobility works. Not mentioning the burst spec where it's part of the rotation. So fun to use this bugged nonsense. Had they fixed it...

[Torvai]

I'm so disappointed that Eric didn't say that other changes had made Sins/Shadows too mobile and that they removed Phase Walk to reduce their mobility. Oh. Wait. He did say that.

 

The problem is, they aren't. At least not more than anyone else. And with that change, they'll be even less. Especially considering that there's a utility that converts Force Sprint into a dcd. Which leaves Sins, especially tanks, with only Phantom Stride, which only works half the time and sends you off the map the other half.

[nyrkverse]

Removing phase walk from assassins/shadows does seem to be the most significant change mentioned and it's become sort of iconic for the class as people say, but that's only because it's taken BWA too long to remove it.

 

Mind you, we haven't seen the full complement of changes and I've heard some other stuff about stealth becoming more powerful and such, so we'll see. But overall I don't see the need for a stealth class to have phase walk on top of their ability to stealth out of combat.

 

Someone mentioned that their mara or whatever is less squishy, well they don't have stealth do they? So they need to be less squishy. People naturally would like to have everything in one class. Of course at the same time we have to recognise that, again, these changes are clearly meant for PvP and PvE suffers from it.

 

Now, I don't play my assassin tank much as I prefer Juggernaut tanking but could someone enlighten me why a tank cannot do without an ability like phase walk? You have a speed boost and a pull ability right?

 

Juggs can force charge every 15 seconds, a CD that's reduced when attacked if you take the appropriate utility and can be reset by force push every minute. Plus Mad Dash every 45 seconds, 20 seconds Intercede on a friendly target and 2 optional speed buffs with utilities.

 

Assassins can force speed every 25 seconds (baseline is 30 seconds, you need to spend a utility point for 25) and phantom stride every 30 seconds if it doesn't bug out. Pull won't move a boss to your location (great for extra opening threat though) and it's only available to tanks anyway. Brontes (HM and NiM) is a great example of a fight where Phase Walk is pretty essential for quick repositioning but I can count on one hand the bosses where I don't use it and where my dps and/or utility to the group wouldn't suffer without it.

 

And frankly, if you think Assassins don't need it, then how can a ranged class (Sorcerers) do?

[Tsillah]

Juggs can force charge every 15 seconds, a CD that's reduced when attacked if you take the appropriate utility and can be reset by force push every minute. Plus Mad Dash every 45 seconds, 20 seconds Intercede on a friendly target and 2 optional speed buffs with utilities.

 

And assassins can stealth to sneak up on people and even stealth out of combat completely. Which is something a Juggernaut cannot do. You can't just ignore abilities because they don't suit your reasoning.

 

Assassins can force speed every 25 seconds (baseline is 30 seconds, you need to spend a utility point for 25) and phantom stride every 30 seconds if it doesn't bug out. Pull won't move a boss to your location (great for extra opening threat though) and it's only available to tanks anyway. Brontes (HM and NiM) is a great example of a fight where Phase Walk is pretty essential for quick repositioning but I can count on one hand the bosses where I don't use it and where my dps and/or utility to the group wouldn't suffer without it .

 

Again, you can stealth and get close to a boss. How come you do not see stealth as a gap closer I wonder? Now I understand that phase walk can be useful but it doesn't mean you can't do without it.

 

 

And frankly, if you think Assassins don't need it, then how can a ranged class (Sorcerers) do?

 

A ranged class that cannot stealth out of combat you mean?

[Deaconik]

Juggs can force charge every 15 seconds, a CD that's reduced when attacked if you take the appropriate utility and can be reset by force push every minute. Plus Mad Dash every 45 seconds, 20 seconds Intercede on a friendly target and 2 optional speed buffs with utilities.

 

Assassins can force speed every 25 seconds (baseline is 30 seconds, you need to spend a utility point for 25) and phantom stride every 30 seconds if it doesn't bug out. Pull won't move a boss to your location (great for extra opening threat though) and it's only available to tanks anyway. Brontes (HM and NiM) is a great example of a fight where Phase Walk is pretty essential for quick repositioning but I can count on one hand the bosses where I don't use it and where my dps and/or utility to the group wouldn't suffer without it.

 

And frankly, if you think Assassins don't need it, then how can a ranged class (Sorcerers) do?

So much this.

[Deaconik]

And assassins can stealth to sneak up on people and even stealth out of combat completely. Which is something a Juggernaut cannot do. You can't just ignore abilities because they don't suit your reasoning.

Doesn't matter when talking about boss fights in progress. Also you lose threat which isn't good for tank.

 

Again, you can stealth and get close to a boss. How come you do not see stealth as a gap closer I wonder? Now I understand that phase walk can be useful but it doesn't mean you can't do without it.

Again, doesn't matter for bosses in fight

 

A ranged class that cannot stealth out of combat you mean?

I main sage healer and I say they don't need it as much as shadows. Sage has many defensive abilities for a ranged class, they don't need it. I would trade my WZ Sage's phase walk for my PvE tank PW any time.

[Torvai]

Again, you can stealth and get close to a boss. How come you do not see stealth as a gap closer I wonder? Now I understand that phase walk can be useful but it doesn't mean you can't do without it.

Speaking from a pure PvE perspective here:

-Tanks(good ones at least) use the shroud on stealth as a dcd

-Deception uses stealth as part of their optimal dps rotation

Hatred is the only spec that doesn't need it for resource management or dps.

In addition to that, Deception already uses Phantom Stride as part of their dps rotation. And come 5.0, Darkness and Hatred will too, since it then gives a proc for Assassinate(yeah I know, hatred has that already).

 

So, Phantom Stride is used rotationally, vanish is a dcd for tanks and a dps ability for deception, phasewalk is taken away and sprint will be another dcd in 5.0. Where do Sins have movement abilities again?

 

And also, why should it be taken away in the first place? If people don't want to use it or can't comprehend how to, that's their problem.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Torvai

[Rheshalea]

I hope the devs keep in mind that every skill does NOT have to be THE best and greatest and most efficient. It's perfectly ok to have some moves that are just plain fun or dramatic.

Yes, I'm thinking about Flame Thrower and Dirty Kick.

 

Also, to those who say "wait and see". THIS is when we need to provide feedback. When there may still be time to influence what the devs are doing. FEEDBACK. Now. Before it's too late and the changes go through.

[Deaconik]

Speaking from a pure PvE perspective here:

-Tanks(good ones at least) use the shroud on stealth as a dcd

-Deception uses stealth as part of their optimal dps rotation

Hatred is the only spec that doesn't need it for resource management or dps.

In addition to that, Deception already uses Phantom Stride as part of their dps rotation. And come 5.0, Darkness and Hatred will too, since it then gives a proc for Assassinate(yeah I know, hatred has that already).

 

So, Phantom Stride is used rotationally, vanish is a dcd for tanks and a dps ability for deception, phasewalk is taken away and sprint will be another dcd in 5.0. Where do Sins have movement abilities again?

 

And also, why should it be taken away in the first place? If people don't want to use it or can't comprehend how to, that's their problem.

 

IMO this is pure PvP change.

[Rabenschwinge]

Another example:

 

"Phase Walk"

 

This was originally a Shadow/Sin only move and then you gave it base line to the class and now you're taking it away from Shadows and Sins? Like what the heck, really?

 

These changes are severely the wrong idea and I wanna know what logic and reasoning went into this nonsense.

 

Hmmm... I don't really mind the Phase Walk is removed even though a Jedi Shadow is my main character. It is an interesting ability that allows you to do unusual things with the proper preparation (such as fleeing up a ledge that cannot be climbed on a PvP map) and it can be helpful during boss fights in hard mode flashpoints, but it was never really required; typically Force Speed does just as well. As a matter of fact I sometimes forget that I laid down a phase walk and only remember when paced back to the anchor point.