Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I disagree, the game just isn't free. Free to play, is a way to present things, but we all know that a f2p player can't do everything without paying. And with 5.0 even less. So SWTOR just isn't a free game.

 

But a sub doesn't make a game "pay to win", you're not paying to get more gear or I don't know what, you're paying for full access to the game.

 

We all know that this game wouldn't exist if he was completely free, the sub is a regular thing.

 

Well ideally since you can participate in warzones for free ( albeit a limited amount ) yet you have to pay to get gear to be able to compete in warzones he was correct in it being pay to win by definition.

 

If they removed all access to warzones ( as they've done with ops ) unless you sub then the "pay to get gear" wouldn't matter as much since you couldn't access the content anyway ( thus pay to play ).

 

Of course there would still be open world PVP but that's more or less dead.

[SiegePro]

Well ideally since you can participate in warzones for free ( albeit a limited amount ) yet you have to pay to get gear to be able to compete in warzones he was correct in it being pay to win by definition

Except you can't even get to the max level without a subscription and so therefore would only be able to enter pre-70 PVP matches which won't have the level 70 gear either. That would keep that part from being pay to win.

[eartharioch]

Well ideally since you can participate in warzones for free ( albeit a limited amount ) yet you have to pay to get gear to be able to compete in warzones he was correct in it being pay to win by definition.

 

If they removed all access to warzones ( as they've done with ops ) unless you sub then the "pay to get gear" wouldn't matter as much since you couldn't access the content anyway ( thus pay to play ).

 

Of course there would still be open world PVP but that's more or less dead.

 

You don't have to pay to get WZ gear -- leveling greens Bolster just fine (at least last time I checked). You need to buy (one-time payment) Artifact Authorization to get PVP set bonus gear, which is "required" for competitive Ranked play, but that can be purchased off the GTN. The devs haven't actually said how 5.0 PVP is going to work, but I would distinguish requiring a sub for maximum access as different from actual pay-to-win, since subbing is a flat fee -- i.e., subs can't pay *more* to secure additional advantages.

[Theeko]

Swtor monthly token credit sink !

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Except you can't even get to the max level without a subscription and so therefore would only be able to enter pre-70 PVP matches which won't have the level 70 gear either. That would keep that part from being pay to win.

 

OK fine - assuming someone had at least subbed once for KotET.

I'm sort of using myself as an example as at this stage I don't see myself paying beyond KotET ( might even not bother playing with passes ... time will tell ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You don't have to pay to get WZ gear -- leveling greens Bolster just fine (at least last time I checked). You need to buy (one-time payment) Artifact Authorization to get PVP set bonus gear, which is "required" for competitive Ranked play, but that can be purchased off the GTN. The devs haven't actually said how 5.0 PVP is going to work, but I would distinguish requiring a sub for maximum access as different from actual pay-to-win, since subbing is a flat fee -- i.e., subs can't pay *more* to secure additional advantages.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see on that. No expertise anymore wouldn't surprise me if they somehow royally stuff bolster up but that aside Eric did mention this ...

 

•Will item rating give an advantage over other players with lower item rating gear in Warzones?

 

•Yup. Having an item rating advantage would mean that you have higher stats. In Warzones especially there would be other factors at play such as any stat optimization and of course individual player skill.

 

This tells me if you have no level 70 gear from GC and wanted to participate in PVP against those that do, you will get slaughtered ... I mean they must want people to want to get higher level gear which would be moot if everyone just got bolstered equally again.

 

Sure you could buy crafted gear etc. from the GTN but that cap stops that so you'd have to do so before going preferred and you can't really craft any gear yourself unless you get the schematics first also as you wouldn't be able to access them as preferred/f2p.

 

I guess everyone has different definitions of pay to win but in this sense I am taking it quite literally. You pay to get better gear and thus win.

 

subs can't pay *more* to secure additional advantages

 

They can over each other with this booster concept though. I personally wouldn't call that definitely pay to win though and it has no extra effect over the people paying nothing because they aren't getting gear either way.

 

I can see why people view it as pay to win at the same time too - people could be paying to get an advantage for whatever amount of time it takes non paying customers to get the gear without the boost. It's once you start selling items that can give people an unfair advantage over other paying people that you really start hitting the line around pay to win.

 

They could also just implement this 3 months after KotET and I doubt anyone would care as much ... if it goes in with launch though, watch the fireworks.

[eartharioch]

I guess we'll have to wait and see on that. No expertise anymore wouldn't surprise me if they somehow royally stuff bolster up but that aside Eric did mention this ...

TBH, Bolster is already pretty "stuffed up", but it can be managed. I haven't checked unofficial sources, and I just haven't seen enough specifics to make a call on 5.0 based on vague statements by Eric, but I don't doubt BWA's ability to screw it up, P2W or not.

 

This tells me if you have no level 70 gear from GC and wanted to participate in PVP against those that do, you will get slaughtered ... I mean they must want people to want to get higher level gear which would be moot if everyone just got bolstered equally again.

Unfortunately, I agree with your assessment if they do get rid of Bolster and let gear take over. OTOH, a good Bolster system (even the current one, actually) **could** (if implemented right) negate this problem. Bolster all players to Tier 3 *in WZs* and give ranked more CXP as BW has indicated. PVP is (other than set bonus, which isn't a factor for most players) skill based, but if you want to PVE (or, LOL, OWPVP), you still need to work for your gear. On the surface this may seem bad (encouraging PVE players to do Ranked PVP to get better CXP), but it might not -- if enough (even crap) PVE players PVP ranked, then there might actually be enough "lower tier" players to let the true PVP studs (not me) get real rankings without Win Trading.

 

They can over each other with this booster concept though. I personally wouldn't call that definitely pay to win though and it has no extra effect over the people paying nothing because they aren't getting gear either way.

I don't consider subbing "pay to win" (especially when it's pretty clearly pay-to-even-play), but if they introduce anything like a CXP Booster that subs can buy to get an advantage over other subs, I'd consider that P2W. The current XP Boosters aren't P2W since all they do is get you to end game faster-- once you hit end game, XP doesn't matter. CXP is actually buying an increased amount of end game rewards.

Edited November 10, 2016 by eartharioch

[Liquor]

...

I don't consider subbing "pay to win" (especially when it's pretty clearly pay-to-even-play), but if they introduce anything like a CXP Booster that subs can buy to get an advantage over other subs, I'd consider that P2W. The current XP Boosters aren't P2W since all they do is get you to end game faster-- once you hit end game, XP doesn't matter. CXP is actually buying end game rewards QUICKER.

 

Fixed

 

Make rank faster yet open the same number of crates as everyone else. You just open them faster.

 

It's not pay to win. It's play to win. Just like the current XP boosts and insta level 60. Bypass story and missions to reach end game quicker.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Liquor

[eartharioch]

Fixed

 

Make rank faster yet open the same number of crates as everyone else. You just open them faster.

 

It's not pay to win. It's play to win. Just like the current XP boosts and insta level 60. Bypass story and missions to reach end game quicker.

 

First, CXP Booster isn't actually in-game yet, so this is all speculation. That said, from what's been said officially, is that you get a Command Crate every time you receive a Command Level (which you get from Command XP), *and* your Command Level determines the Tier of items in the crate. So a CXP boost would give you *both* earlier access to higher Tier items *and* more Command Crates (i.e., chances to get gear). Either of those is arguably P2W (the combination just being a stronger argument), since this only involves end game gear. XP boosts and insta-60 (when level cap is 65) get you *to* end game faster, but a CXP boost would give you an advantage *at* end game. That is the difference.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

 

I don't consider subbing "pay to win" (especially when it's pretty clearly pay-to-even-play), but if they introduce anything like a CXP Booster that subs can buy to get an advantage over other subs, I'd consider that P2W. The current XP Boosters aren't P2W since all they do is get you to end game faster-- once you hit end game, XP doesn't matter. CXP is actually buying an increased amount of end game rewards.

 

I didn't consider subbing pay to win but if preferred/f2p can access content but not be able to fight on a level playing field solely because they don't sub it sort of changes the dynamic of what it is to be a sub.

 

Key will be what comes for preferred/f2p - if nothing as in no passes or anything even to access the content without being a sub ... meh good luck finding groups in the long term, it's hard enough now. I say that here because if f2p/preferred can't access the content then it's not really p2w since you can't do the content in the first place ( except the 5 warzones ).

 

Does GSF factor into any of this? I have little to no knowledge of how that all works - much change there?

[AlienEyeTX]

I didn't consider subbing pay to win but if preferred/f2p can access content but not be able to fight on a level playing field solely because they don't sub it sort of changes the dynamic of what it is to be a sub.

 

Key will be what comes for preferred/f2p - if nothing as in no passes or anything even to access the content without being a sub ... meh good luck finding groups in the long term, it's hard enough now. I say that here because if f2p/preferred can't access the content then it's not really p2w since you can't do the content in the first place ( except the 5 warzones ).

 

Does GSF factor into any of this? I have little to no knowledge of how that all works - much change there?

 

They will be able to access the content... depending on what you are looking at. They just won't be eligible for CXP crates. Seems fair enough for the freeloaders.

[Toraak]

Considering the fact that you need to be a subscriber (or buy unlocks) to play the full game, SWTOR is "Pay to win" by definition.

 

That is not the definition of P2W at all. Most games have a free trial (even games from the 1980-1990's). that was a small Demo of the game. Then you had to go out and buy it. In MMO terms that is Subscribing to the game. It's called Pay 2 Play, or P2P. P2W is if the best gear with the highest stats were sold exclusively on the CM so only those that bought it from BW would have it.

[eartharioch]

They will be able to access the content... depending on what you are looking at. They just won't be eligible for CXP crates. Seems fair enough for the freeloaders.

 

Neither MeNaCe-NZ nor I are discussing what is *fair* for [those you call freeloaders]. MeNaCe-NZ (and I) are more concerned about our ability to find groups of people (regardless of subscriber status) with whom to play. Because if I/we can't find groups, we're probably less likely to keep subbing, and we're probably not the only ones in that situation. OFC, I apologize to MeNaCe-NZ if I have misread him.

[ReverendAnderson]

Does it really matter if SWTOR becomes pay-2-win at this point? I mean, SWTOR is all single player story content now, and content so easy we can beat it while sleeping. The only part of the game that actually needs any kind of gearing that Bioware could start selling boosts for is the stuff that hasn't seen anything new in two years. Do a lot of people still play Hard Modes and Ops?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

They will be able to access the content... depending on what you are looking at. They just won't be eligible for CXP crates. Seems fair enough for the freeloaders.

 

O RLY

 

We recognize that players are interested in something similar to the Weekly Passes which would offer non-subscribers access to Galactic Command. We are exploring possible options and I will pass on updates as soon as we have them. As always, keep the feedback coming!

 

Preferred players will fall under the existing restrictions they have now. They can complete Flashpoints normally but with no rewards at level 70, a limited number of Warzones per week but they cannot access Operations.

 

-eric

 

Edit: Clarifying an error

 

Where is the "will have access to the content" in any of that?

 

I personally like having the "free loaders" around, gives me players to actually do the MMO content with. I honestly don't give a **** if they pay or not, it doesn't affect me at all. Does it affect you?

 

With less group pops and me spending my time twiddling my thumbs waiting for pops I figure I might as well not pay either ... oh wait I can't do anything then ... oh but I can in <insert game here> and off I go and 1 less person to do content with ... it may lead to quite a cycle.

 

At least though preferred/f2p can queue for HM FPs in their gear that won't be good enough for HM FPs and ruin that fun for paying subs too.

 

Great system, really "rewarding" the paying customers there.

 

Sarcasm there btw if ya didn't notice, that's the key imo - this system doesn't reward paying players, it just punishes those preferred/f2p. If you want people to pay regularly and en masse they need to make a product that people feel they want to pay for not try force people into it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

P2W is if the best gear with the highest stats were sold exclusively on the CM so only those that bought it from BW would have it.

 

Or like if only people who gave Bioware money had access to that gear ... oh wait ...

[Toraak]

Or like if only people who gave Bioware money had access to that gear ... oh wait ...

 

Incorrect. What BW is saying is that once you hit 70, the free trial of the game is now gone. If you want to participate in end game you pay to play the game at this point (which includes gearing). This is not pay to win, but Pay to play. Remember that non subscribers will still have the same access as they do now (no access to operations, Limited WZ's, tho that can be gotten around by having a sub group queu you, and Limited FP access).

 

BW is just moving to a more common P2P concept, which hasn't been in the game since F2P came out as a model.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Toraak

[xkcurtisx]

Incorrect. What BW is saying is that once you hit 70, the free trial of the game is now gone. If you want to participate in end game you pay to play the game at this point (which includes gearing). This is not pay to win, but Pay to play. Remember that non subscribers will still have the same access as they do now (no access to operations, Limited WZ's, tho that can be gotten around by having a sub group queu you, and Limited FP access).

 

BW is just moving to a more common P2P concept, which hasn't been in the game since F2P came out as a model.

 

And again people steering away from the original arugment at the start of the thread. CXP booster <> not free to play.

Pay to accelerate / pay to win. (take your pick its just twisting the words anyway)

[peter_plankskull]

Incorrect. What BW is saying is that once you hit 70, the free trial of the game is now gone.

 

The free trial ends at 50, the pref status simply is being removed now in KOTET.

[Tsillah]

The free trial ends at 50, the pref status simply is being removed now in KOTET.

 

What do you mean it's being removed? If someone subs for a month and levels to 70 and then drops their sub, will they not have the preferred status?

[xkcurtisx]

What do you mean it's being removed? If someone subs for a month and levels to 70 and then drops their sub, will they not have the preferred status?

 

they will but its no different than being f2p

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Incorrect. What BW is saying is that once you hit 70, the free trial of the game is now gone. If you want to participate in end game you pay to play the game at this point (which includes gearing). This is not pay to win, but Pay to play. Remember that non subscribers will still have the same access as they do now (no access to operations, Limited WZ's, tho that can be gotten around by having a sub group queu you, and Limited FP access).

 

BW is just moving to a more common P2P concept, which hasn't been in the game since F2P came out as a model.

 

How is stating what they are literally doing incorrect? You can interpret it however you want and paint in some other rosey light but facts are facts.

 

I can still play the game as preferred, I can do KotET a million times once my sub runs out, I can do flashpoints at level 70 I can do my 5 warzones - all I can't do is operations content wise. I can't get gear though ... that's because it's pay to win.

 

Other than operations what can't I "play" if this is so pay to play?

[Tsillah]

they will but its no different than being f2p

 

It is different because you still have the content of the expansions which a pure f2p doesn't have access to, a higher credit cap and you get some free unlocks like inventory and skill bars, like they do now. Do I really need to explain the blatantly obvious?

 

Unless someone can actually show me a statement by BWA that says otherwise, preferred is not being removed and is still different from a pure f2p account.

[peter_plankskull]

What do you mean it's being removed? If someone subs for a month and levels to 70 and then drops their sub, will they not have the preferred status?

 

Okay... it isn't full out being removed, it... it was hyperbole...

 

But the benefits of being a part time or using passes now will be gone and you will barely get anything better than a standard f2p anymore.

[xkcurtisx]

It is different because you still have the content of the expansions which a pure f2p doesn't have access to, a higher credit cap and you get some free unlocks like inventory and skill bars, like they do now. Do I really need to explain the blatantly obvious?

 

Unless someone can actually show me a statement by BWA that says otherwise, preferred is not being removed and is still different from a pure f2p account.

 

Old expansion not this one, extra quickbars higher credit cap... that's it? that's nothing.

 

This

 

Okay... it isn't full out being removed, it... it was hyperbole...

 

But the benefits of being a part time or using passes now will be gone and you will barely get anything better than a standard f2p anymore.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Xcurtx