Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[RswanBing]

I haven't seen ANY valid arguments to counter so points aren't needed. It's not pay to win, the end.

 

I see that coming, you keep saying "NO NO NO, YOU'RE ALL WRONG" but you are unable to dismiss other arguments, or to give counter arguments. I'm not saying I or other can't be contradict, but you're the one with no valid arguments, actually, you don't have any arguments at all.

 

You make me laugh, nothing much, stubborrness at his best.

[Bruticis]

I see that coming, you keep saying "NO NO NO, YOU'RE ALL WRONG" but you are unable to dismiss other arguments, or to give counter arguments. I'm not saying I or other can't be contradict, but you're the one with no valid arguments, actually, you don't have any arguments at all.

 

You make me laugh, nothing much, stubborrness at his best.

 

I suppose if you told me the moon was made of cheese, you'd want a 500 page dissertation from me disputing that the moon is in fact not made of cheese?

[RswanBing]

Hate to be that guy but the mount is still exclusive, is it not? The EC mount is different. Even if you don't like the differences.

 

Yes there are other examples where BW has changed direction on certain things. But changing direction is not lying.

 

I get your point, but still, saying a mount is different just because it's another color is kind of reaaaaally fetched. Take two cars, same model, same everyting. Only difference, one is painted in blue, the other in red. Guess what, they are still the same car.

 

I

[Soljin]

Right, that tells me enough about you as a person. Your agression is completely unnecessary, but clearly that won't stop you.

 

 

 

Ah I see, you are not very good at reading. My point is that people often have different definitions of concepts and that it is therefore best to share these definitions so we know what everybody is actually is talking about.

 

The idea that I am pushing my definition on others...now that is entirely you. I want people to clarify their definitions to avoid confusion

 

 

 

And that is your opinion, but that still means it isn't pay to win even by your definition.

 

Not caring about what you appreciate is not aggressive....if anything it was dismissive.

 

The thread is "Possibility for SWToR to Go Full Pay-to-Win". Not learning with Tsillah...get over yourself and back on topic.

 

Is the CXP booster concept a gateway to P2W aspects being released into the game? Kinda seems like a step in that direction...

[RswanBing]

I suppose if you told me the moon was made of cheese, you'd want a 500 page dissertation from me disputing that the moon is in fact not made of cheese?

 

Not at all, but if our arguments are not valid, tell me why, and explain. Just saying they are not is not sufficient you know. If you're smarter than us and know better, I'm sure you're able to explain your thoughts.

[Andryah]

I suppose if you told me the moon was made of cheese, you'd want a 500 page dissertation from me disputing that the moon is in fact not made of cheese?

 

LOL.. so true.

 

It's a clear trend in social media these days in general. Modern internet communications style, in the age of random social media channels, has changed in recent years. Now days, a lot of internet communicators have adopted a popular approach long used in politics ... state something absurd or clearly hyperbolic and then demand others prove them wrong.

 

Personally, I see clear parallels with the scripts written for the PeeWee Herman Show.

[RswanBing]

LOL.. so true.

 

It's a clear trend in social media these days in general. Modern internet communications style, in the age of random social media channels, has changed in recent years. Now days, a lot of internet communicators have adopted a popular approach long used in politics ... state something absurd or clearly hyperbolic and then demand others prove them wrong.

 

Personally, I see clear parallels with the scripts written for the PeeWee Herman Show.

 

Hum, I'm not asking him to prove me wrong at first. He's the one saying my and other arguments are not valid, while he doesn't give any arguments at all. All he keeps saying is "no you're wrong".

 

I can be wrong for sure, I'm not omniscient, but still, if he doesn't have anything more to say and if he's unable to at least explain his thoughts, what's the point of discussion ?

 

Take notice that I don't deny that these boost are hypothetical, all I'm saying is IF they were real it would be a pay to win thing. I give arguments to make my point, if you tell me that I'm wrong, at least tell me why, I'm only asking to prove me wrong because he just keeps saying I am.

Edited November 8, 2016 by RswanBing

[TUXs]

Unacceptable but what would you do about it? If everyone is concerned and disappointed but still continues to sub and others still buy the boosts ... what do BWA care if anyone finds it unacceptable?

What will "I" do? I'll tell them what a bad idea it is. It won't hurt me, but it hurts the game itself imo. It creates a paid way to gear up faster, which means you're buying better gear, than those who don't pay extra. This is the very definition of P2W imo.

What about the fact that now they require a certain level of valor for you to enter r-warzones. And they do sell valor boosts

Not the same thing at all. The valor boosts simply allow you to participate sooner, they don't give you an advantage, like this will.

They have boosts for everything else. So, why not?

This is like selling "better loot drop" boosts. This is more like doing an Op now and while you get 216 gear, I would use my boost and get 220 or 224 gear.

[psandak]

Did not read all ten pages, but I am going to throw in my 2c...

 

CXP boosts are not Pay-to-Win, BUT the Galactic Command feature in general could be.

 

First let me talk about CXP: Command XP boosts would be "pay-to-accelerate" not P2W.

 

I play the CCG Hearthstone and there are constant "this game is P2W" threads on those forums. In that game all paying does is buy you card packs which are completely random, therefore all paying does is allow a player more opportunity in a shorter time to potentially get more/better cards; there is no guarantee of getting better in that game by paying money.

 

The same thing could be said of CXP boosts: all they would do is give the character more opportunity to acquire command crates in a shorter to potentially get more/better gear; again no guarantee of getting better gear by using a CXP boost.

 

That being said, there are what could be defined as Pay-to-Win implementations in SWTOR. Once a F2P player hits a certain point they HAVE to pay to progress. Currently, that means:

• one HAS to subscribe for at least one month to get all the KotFE chapters and they will have to subscribe for another month (once released) to get the KotET chapters.
  
• and more importantly, one has to continually subscribe to participate in Galactic Command; let your sub lapse and you cannot get CXP anymore.
  

 

That said, this type of pay for content has been going on since F2P was introduced to SWTOR prior to RotHC; a F2P account could not play RotHC. And these "P2W" implementations are not nearly as heinous as the original release of heroic space combat and grade 7 ship parts - that WAS definitely P2W: you HAD to purchase the grade 7 ship parts (off the CM: whether directly or the CT schematics) to even have a chance at completing the heroic space combat missions; it was a paywall. It was obvious (to me anyway) that EA/BW tested the waters for a more P2W model and we the players cried out with a resounding NO!

 

TL;DR - CXP boosts would be pay-to-accelerate not pay-to-win. But it can be argued that the "subscribe for new content" model is a version of P2W because one has to pay to advance, but it is more palatable than other examples.

[Tsetso]

Not the same thing at all. The valor boosts simply allow you to participate sooner, they don't give you an advantage, like this will.

Except they stated that r-pvp and nim ops give max amount of cxp

[Tsillah]

Not caring about what you appreciate is not aggressive....if anything it was dismissive.

 

The thread is "Possibility for SWToR to Go Full Pay-to-Win". Not learning with Tsillah...get over yourself and back on topic.

 

Is the CXP booster concept a gateway to P2W aspects being released into the game? Kinda seems like a step in that direction...

 

Sigh...totally not worth it. Let me scratch this and /ignore instead.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Tsillah

[TUXs]

Hum, I'm not asking him to prove me wrong at first. He's the one saying my and other arguments are not valid, while he doesn't give any arguments at all. All he keeps saying is "no you're wrong".

There are certain people here who are simply antagonists. They don't contribute anything, they just antagonize. Don't give them the attention they crave.

[TUXs]

Except they stated that r-pvp and nim ops give max amount of cxp

As they should. You can't waltz into a NiM Ops without any experience at it, the same is now true for R-WZ.

[Andryah]

CXP boosts are not Pay-to-Win, BUT the Galactic Command feature in general could be.

 

........

 

it can be argued that the "subscribe for new content" model is a version of P2W because one has to pay to advance, but it is more palatable than other examples.

 

Actually, it's pay-to-play. Noting indicates any player will actually "win" anything by having to pay a sub to play particular content. They will however, experience more access to game content, which is precisely how flexible access models work for MMOs.

 

See... Pay-2-Win originated around the idea that players could pay to win in PvP... as in not have to go through all the same steps and effort as other players to be competitive ... but rather buy into being competitive by simply paying real money to insta-cap items, skills, etc. etc. Which in turn puts pressure on everyone to do exactly the same thing. Yes, you could extend this to PvE content.. but let's be honest here... winning to most MMO players centers around beating other players at something... and there is less case for this in the PvE space.

 

There will always be two or more camps on discussion about "boosts". And people are often very subjective on this.. claiming that their particular craved boost is not P-2-W but Billy's definitely is. It's a classic circular argument in a gaming forum, complete with a big flush-handle.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Andryah

[Tsillah]

That being said, there are what could be defined as Pay-to-Win implementations in SWTOR. Once a F2P player hits a certain point they HAVE to pay to progress. Currently, that means:

• one HAS to subscribe for at least one month to get all the KotFE chapters and they will have to subscribe for another month (once released) to get the KotET chapters.
  
• and more importantly, one has to continually subscribe to participate in Galactic Command; let your sub lapse and you cannot get CXP anymore.
  

 

I really don't get how pay to play became pay to win. When did this happen?

[psandak]

@ Andryah and Tsillah

 

I am not saying I agree that pay to play is pay to win, but there are those who could and would make that argument

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

Is the CXP booster concept a gateway to P2W aspects being released into the game? Kinda seems like a step in that direction...

 

I agree.

 

Gamers without it will be left behind. Left behind by 25% for every kill. Depending on how fast points are earned, that could be a fairly large gap if all things else are equal. Spend more money get more gear faster. Get more gear for PVP quicker where gear really is the admission price and makes a much bigger difference.

 

Spend more money beyond your sub, get CXP boost and get more gear faster than others who do not spend more cash. It's getting awfully close to a P2W scenario.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Quraswren

[Bruticis]

According to the gang, PVP and OPs are dead so we can just dismiss the already silly argument that this is P2W.

[AlienEyeTX]

What will "I" do? I'll tell them what a bad idea it is. It won't hurt me, but it hurts the game itself imo. It creates a paid way to gear up faster, which means you're buying better gear, than those who don't pay extra. This is the very definition of P2W imo.

 

Not the same thing at all. The valor boosts simply allow you to participate sooner, they don't give you an advantage, like this will.

 

This is like selling "better loot drop" boosts. This is more like doing an Op now and while you get 216 gear, I would use my boost and get 220 or 224 gear.

 

No, the gear is the same, you just get there quicker. Same as any other boost.

[Quraswren]

According to the gang, SNIP....

 

Sorry but the little rascals don't really count here. There cute and all but thats about it.

 

When it comes to P2W, selling CXP boosts is getting really close no matter how you spin it. Pay more beyond your sub, get gear faster, which can actually make a difference in game vs someone else as well as most others areas when completing content.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Quraswren

[Tsillah]

@ Andryah and Tsillah

 

I am not saying I agree that pay to play is pay to win, but there are those who could and would make that argument

 

Ah I see. Well, these days people claim the most ridiculous things so people make worse arguments than that.

 

If it wasn't so easy to get gearboxes from what I understand I would be more concerned about it as well, but it seems that the difference it will make is between easy and easier and not between hard and easy.

 

I don't see how that would open the gate to actual pay to win either because that would lose them too many players, myself included, but in it's current form as they have presented GC I don't think that boosts to speed up the xp gain would be problematic, especially since unranked pvp and sm pve are all bolstered. So the point is not about having a real competitive edge but how fast do you want to go into ranked or HM/NiM content.

[RswanBing]

There are certain people here who are simply antagonists. They don't contribute anything, they just antagonize. Don't give them the attention they crave.

 

Don't worry, I don't take him too seriously but I don't know, I just don't get the point of doing so. I get that some people want attention, but what do they get from that, I really don't understand. I guess I want to believe everyone can say something pertinent if they try.

 

Still, I know it's waaaay too much optimistic, I must have too much faith in humanity I guess

[casirabit]

If they do this, then why restrict the command crates to subs if they going to offer them on the cartel market. You know fully well they will let anyone buy them and therefore their comments that only subs can get them is false.

 

It does sound like pay to win if they do this but if they do it nothing we can say will change it as if it makes them money that is all that matters to them and people will buy them if they put them on the market.

[Soljin]

Sorry but the little rascals don't really count here. There cute and all but thats about it.

 

When it comes to P2W, selling CXP boosts is getting really close no matter how you spin it. Pay more beyond your sub, get gear faster, which can actually make a difference in game vs someone else as well as most others areas when completing content.

 

Especially when you consider maxed out gear could possibly take an entire year...we don't know for sure.

 

All the time in between for people that use the boosts and gain an advantage....that borders on pay to win. You have paid to propel yourself in front of those that do not buy the boosters which gives a gear advantage that may allow you to beat someone you otherwise would not have......

 

Sounds like we are pushing on the door to me.....

Edited November 8, 2016 by Soljin

[Jerba]

So?

How is that any different from XP boosters that shorten the average time until a player gets to endgame or valor & social boosts that shorten the time it takes to rank up in their respective areas?

 

Gotta have social rank to get access to unique social equipment and the achievements that come along with it.

I'm sure valor gives you something, but it's PvP and I don't care about it.

 

Leveling up gives you access to better gear that you still have to buy, craft, or loot.

Leveling up your Command Rank gives you more random chances to get a piece of gear you may or may not need.

 

It sounds like this whole argument comes back to a whine about "oh noes, someone else will have gear like mine and I won't be special anymore" or something.

We are talking about P2W. Social armor or valor won't let you win, only gear with stats will.

 

The reason I am against the boosts is that at least in the first few weeks/months after a level increase, my main motivation to play is to get BiS gear again. Once I am geared up, I can enjoy playing with my raid group where we take fun in killing the same bosses over and over again and don't have to worry about loot (or with 5.0, worry about leveling up our command rank).

 

Being a progression player, I (and the people in my guild) will try to find the optimal ways to farm command points and get gear as fast as possible. To me, that is the main appeal of an MMO, and the reason why I can still derive some pleasure from the Galactic Command system.

A CM boost item will invalidate all that. Why bother doing the daily highlighted activity when the CM item boosts your chosen activity even higher? Why bother doing Tactical/HM flashpoints when solo mode + boost gives more points? I enjoy playing with a group, but it is always a hassle to organize a group that won't go AFK or waste your time, so if solo content gives more points than group content, I won't mind doing solo content from time to time.

 

And of course, there is the slippery slope argument. Once CXP boosts are in, it is only a matter of time before BioWare will pursue more P2W items, eventually putting Command Crates or even BiS gear in the Cartel Market.

 

I don't worry too much about some casual player getting BiS gear. There was a time where I worried about that, but after the Coratanni exploit, Monolith dropping BiS MH and Highlighted HMs, there is no point in holding onto that, even though it is a core MMO concept.

And it is still very easy to see who is a raider or not. Do players have their gear augmented, do they use the optimal stats, do they use legacy gear, have they collected all datacrons, do they have HM/NiM achievements, what guild are they in? As long as I can still see this, I'm happy.

Believe me, you don't know me at all. I couldn't care less for casual players getting BiS gear.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Jerba