Personal Aligment DOES AFFECT DvL struggle in 5.0

[Aowin]

As I feared, BioWare has systematically obsoleted neutral/gray/clouded characters. Whatever your personal alignment is will determine whether you are the "winner" or "loser."

 

BioWare also claims it will be virtually impossible to be neutral now based on so many new sources of light/dark points outside of dialogue choices.

 

I suppose the only "bright side" to this clarification is that it doesn't appear to matter whether you are Dark I or Dark V when it comes to rewards. That being said, BioWare is essentially making alignment black and white and getting rid of any third option.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Aowin

[SithEmpress]

I could be wrong but I believe you can be neutral as you will still have a few points. My smuggler has 1600 dark vs 680 light (neutral doesn't mean you have 0 points), so which ever is higher will decide if your on the winner or loser side. I could be mistaken but that how I understood it from the stream. In a way it might be better as you could easily swap you point higher or lower to make sure you are on the winning side. Even just get a few point to swing yourself over to the winning side. Edited October 20, 2016 by SithEmpress

[LordTurin]

I could be wrong but I believe you can be neutral as you will still have a few points 15 dark vs 12 light (neutral doesn't mean you have 0 points), so which ever is higher will decide if your on the winner or loser side. I could be mistaken but that how I understood it. In a way it might be better as you could easily swap you point higher or lower to make sure you are on the winning side. Even just get a few point to swing yourself over to the winning side.

 

Yup. I'm gonna keep my toons close to the limit, and have diplomacy on them so I can just run one mission and flip back and forth.

[SithEmpress]

My sister thought of the same thing, diplomacy might be a very useful tool now. Edited October 20, 2016 by SithEmpress

[Aowin]

I could be wrong but I believe you can be neutral as you will still have a few points. My smuggler has 1600 dark vs 680 light (neutral doesn't mean you have 0 points), so which ever is higher will decide if your on the winner or loser side. I could be mistaken but that how I understood it from the stream. In a way it might be better as you could easily swap you point higher or lower to make sure you are on the winning side. Even just get a few point to swing yourself over to the winning side.

 

The problem is the likelihood of remaining "neutral" now seems to be almost impossible. You aren't just getting light and dark points based on dialogue choices. You get light and dark points for killing NPCs and much more. To actually be able to manage accumulating light and dark points to where you can remain neutral seems to be almost impossible now. It all depends on how BioWare is implementing this system. I think you are vastly simplifying how these mechanisms are in play.

[anolsi]

The problem is the likelihood of remaining "neutral" now seems to be almost impossible. You aren't just getting light and dark points based on dialogue choices. You get light and dark points for killing NPCs and much more. To actually be able to manage accumulating light and dark points to where you can remain neutral seems to be almost impossible now. It all depends on how BioWare is implementing this system. I think you are vastly simplifying how these mechanisms are in play.

Yeah, to me it also looks that will be a lot easier to win dark/light side points on any activity. So to be keeping neutral, (or at least a neutral with difference almost 0) it will be difficult, I think.

 

For me it will be easier and better for everyone if we could choose the side on start of each Battle (not being possible to change until the victory of one of the sides), but not related with other options/choices...

[Aowin]

Yeah, to me it also looks that will be a lot easier to win dark/light side points on any activity. So to be keeping neutral, (or at least a neutral with difference almost 0) it will be difficult, I think.

 

For me it will be easier and better for everyone if we could choose the side on start of each Battle (not being possible to change until the victory of one of the sides), but not related with other options/choices...

 

Yeah. I think this would have been far better and more of an incentive to players if DvL was not tied to personal alignment. Now that it is, it's essentially forcing players to either be Light V or Dark V. The whole idea is that you should choose a side anyway and try to win. Not only would remaining neutral be incredibly difficult under this new system, but in some ways undermine the system by not choosing a side.

[Psychopyro]

IDK, I'm kinda looking at it as being easier to maintain neutral as long as they don't lock your choice during the battle. Each time you do an activity, just switch your alignment. If you push to far one way, switch your alignment and go kill a few mobs on some random planet to move your alignment back to neutral.

 

It may be more of a headache then convos, but it also allows you to easily game both sides of the war if you are dedicated enough to doing it.

[Aowin]

Eric did just provide an interesting answer in another thread related to DvL:

 

Oh! Great question that we probably didn't explain thoroughly enough. Coming with KOTET there will be a toggle on the UI that allows you to change whether you are fighting for the light or dark side. Once you click a side... any enemy you kill, any mission you complete, etc. will then earn you points for that side. If you are at Dark 5 and want to work your way towards light, simply click the light side toggle and play through the game.

 

Note that regardless of your toggle, choices made through conversation will still count as they would normally.

 

Hopefully that makes sense!

 

-eric

 

The question then becomes whether or not this "toggle on the UI" is optional or not. If we are not forced to commit to either light or dark, this would allow players to circumvent the entire system and stay relatively neutral while only using diplomacy to either go slightly light or slightly dark based on who is about to win.

 

My suspicions, however, is that the toggle will not be optional. Which in that case the concern of the thread is realized in that "neutrality" as an alignment effectively no longer exists. Even trying to maintain neutrality would likely be impossible as you would have to constantly switch the toggle between light and dark.

 

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why BioWare isn't forcing you to commit to one side permanently until somebody wins as I could see a lot of exploitation of this system with folks pulling a Benedict Arnold at the last minute if they were really to game the system that intensely. It seems to undermine the very point of the Dark vs Light conflict.

[Belegnole]

Um, what happened to chapter 12 and the whole you need to be grey to win bit?

[Aowin]

Um, what happened to chapter 12 and the whole you need to be grey to win bit?

 

This is actually a really interesting question. Chapter 12 essentially threw out everything we know about the Force. Valkorian, Satele, and Marr made it quite clear that the Jedi and Sith as they understood the Force was wrong.

 

With this DvL event, it seems to me BioWare is not actually addressing this supposedly "superior" understanding of the Force that the Outlander is now following. We have gone back to Dark vs Light without any explanation of what just happened to everything we know about the Force. In fact, I'm going to make a thread address this very point.

[Deewe]

Eric did just provide an interesting answer in another thread related to DvL:

 

 

 

The question then becomes whether or not this "toggle on the UI" is optional or not. If we are not forced to commit to either light or dark, this would allow players to circumvent the entire system and stay relatively neutral while only using diplomacy to either go slightly light or slightly dark based on who is about to win.

 

My suspicions, however, is that the toggle will not be optional. Which in that case the concern of the thread is realized in that "neutrality" as an alignment effectively no longer exists. Even trying to maintain neutrality would likely be impossible as you would have to constantly switch the toggle between light and dark.

 

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why BioWare isn't forcing you to commit to one side permanently until somebody wins as I could see a lot of exploitation of this system with folks pulling a Benedict Arnold at the last minute if they were really to game the system that intensely. It seems to undermine the very point of the Dark vs Light conflict.

It was mentioned in the stream that you always have to choose a side for you actions. So guess staying neutral means keeping switching sides.

 

The concept of having a permanent side is interesting though I guess a bit too restrictive. Although making players to select a side for say a week would be interesting.

[Aowin]

It was mentioned in the stream that you always have to choose a side for you actions. So guess staying neutral means keeping switching sides.

 

The concept of having a permanent side is interesting though I guess a bit too restrictive. Although making players to select a side for say a week would be interesting.

 

I just believe the intent of this new event, which is to fight for Light or Dark, would be more practical if players were locked into supporting a particular side. It wouldn't have to be indefinitely, but at least until one side wins the overall conflict. Once everything resets, players would be free to reconsider which side they want to support. As it stands right now, there is no reason to really be loyal to either side, unless you are just a role player.

[Lanria]

I've loved everything about this game until now.

 

My main is a neutral Sith Inquisitor, I absolutely loved playing through her class questline and liked the whole 'change the empire from within' theme. Now I've got to break character and become either dark or light for the sake of gear and rewards? Worse, it'll be impossible to maintain neutrality? That's not fun or fair, I don't care about this whole dark vs light fiasco, I want to be neutral damn it!

[LyraineAlei]

Eric did just provide an interesting answer in another thread related to DvL:

 

 

 

The question then becomes whether or not this "toggle on the UI" is optional or not. If we are not forced to commit to either light or dark, this would allow players to circumvent the entire system and stay relatively neutral while only using diplomacy to either go slightly light or slightly dark based on who is about to win.

 

My suspicions, however, is that the toggle will not be optional. Which in that case the concern of the thread is realized in that "neutrality" as an alignment effectively no longer exists. Even trying to maintain neutrality would likely be impossible as you would have to constantly switch the toggle between light and dark.

 

To be quite honest, I'm not sure why BioWare isn't forcing you to commit to one side permanently until somebody wins as I could see a lot of exploitation of this system with folks pulling a Benedict Arnold at the last minute if they were really to game the system that intensely. It seems to undermine the very point of the Dark vs Light conflict.

 

I sure hope it is optional for the whole "Chose to fight for the Light/Dark" and not a requirement. I don't want to have characters at LS/DS V, I like having characters floating round LS/DS III or I even as I want that character to be.

 

But I also share your suspicion that it won't be. Which annoys me because alignment doesn't matter to most of my characters, and alignment has never mattered before since relics and armors that aren't alignment-bound have outstripped the ones that were.

[Aowin]

I've loved everything about this game until now.

 

My main is a neutral Sith Inquisitor, I absolutely loved playing through her class questline and liked the whole 'change the empire from within' theme. Now I've got to break character and become either dark or light for the sake of gear and rewards? Worse, it'll be impossible to maintain neutrality? That's not fun or fair, I don't care about this whole dark vs light fiasco, I want to be neutral damn it!

 

Yep. If you really want to try and remain as "neutral" as possible, you'll just have to constantly toggle between light and dark. It's not really practical and BioWare is effectively eliminating the neutral option in favor of picking sides.

[Aowin]

I sure hope it is optional for the whole "Chose to fight for the Light/Dark" and not a requirement. I don't want to have characters at LS/DS V, I like having characters floating round LS/DS III or I even as I want that character to be.

 

But I also share your suspicion that it won't be. Which annoys me because alignment doesn't matter to most of my characters, and alignment has never mattered before since relics and armors that aren't alignment-bound have outstripped the ones that were.

 

Exactly. Alignment, to me, is an ideology that you either fully support or do not. My characters have never made choices based solely on alignment, but rather what they believe is the "right choice" at the time. This system largely invalidates the ability of being able to make personalized choices. Now you are just constantly generating light or dark points based on which side you have toggled on.

[LyraineAlei]

Exactly. Alignment, to me, is an ideology that you either fully support or do not. My characters have never made choices based solely on alignment, but rather what they believe is the "right choice" at the time. This system largely invalidates the ability of being able to make personalized choices. Now you are just constantly generating light or dark points based on which side you have toggled on.

 

Empire vs. Republic would have been better and have that set to the character's default faction (So Trooper, Smuggler, Knight, Consular would be Pub, BH, Agent, Warrior and Inq would be Imp), IMO.

 

It's taking the "RP" out of RPG, IMO as well, the "MM" of MMO RPG already being on debated grounds of existing or not.

 

Guess it's an ... "O G".

 

But the whole Force thing to me, and for my characters, has never been about Light or Dark, but the ideologies of the Codes. I have an LS Sith Warrior and Inquisitor, because they did not feel the need to lord over their Sith-ness and found other passions that Hate (or so I head-cannoned), except for the Inquisitor who hates being told she can't because of her beginnings (often chooses to [shock] if the fool calls her a slave]. I have a DS Knight who absolutely hates the Empire, but the rest of time acts as close to her understanding of the Jedi Code as she understands it, often sacrificing everything for the "greater good". But both groups have a significant smattering on the other side's alignment points bringing both groups from being extremes on either side.

 

And then I have Troopers, Hunters, Agents, and SMugglers who I do not play those characters with any consideration to alignment because they're ... well, they're the Gotham Dark Knights to the Jedi/Sith Kryptonians on Earth. And like Batman, Good and Bad have different meanings than Superman's Good and Bad.

[Aowin]

...

 

I agree. I think this system would be far better suited to being faction-based rather than alignment-based. Had it just been faction-based, this would not be an issue at all. That's of course unless BioWare is planning on just throwing factions out the window depending on how KOTET ends.

 

Exactly. There is so much nuance within the Jedi and the Sith. While their respective codes may be stringent and lack flexibility, the people who follow those codes have their own thoughts and opinions. To essentially railroad everybody into either being Light V or Dark V takes away any sense of individuality and realism in the entire system. Our choices should define who we are, not some arbitrary alignment system.

 

DvL is without a doubt even less appropriate for non-force users. Han Solo didn't even believe in the Force when he was first introduced. Why should any non-force user even care? I understand BioWare had an interesting idea that they wanted to make into a neverending live event for everybody to participate in, but I think they missed the point of what Dark and Light actually means to many.

 

You aren't just simply a good guy or a bad guy. Everybody is different, and while some characters are more beholden to those extremes, you cannot fit everybody into the same cookie cutter framework.

 

Darth Vader, arguably the greatest villain ever created, was not simply "evil." There were many folds to him and I think BioWare does a disservice to SWTOR by making the entire system so simplistic.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Aowin

[Nempo]

Um, what happened to chapter 12 and the whole you need to be grey to win bit?

 

It is not "you need to be neutral" it is "you need to wield both sides" which is NOT grey.

 

So many people fail at the wording regarding the lore and terminology. A 'grey' Jedi is one that ignores the council (qui-gon jin) to do what is right and a 'grey' Sith is one that ignores the Darths to do something.

 

Grey =/= neutral

You can wield both sides of the force, responsibly, and still not be neutral or grey.

[phalczen]

The problem is the likelihood of remaining "neutral" now seems to be almost impossible. You aren't just getting light and dark points based on dialogue choices. You get light and dark points for killing NPCs and much more. To actually be able to manage accumulating light and dark points to where you can remain neutral seems to be almost impossible now. It all depends on how BioWare is implementing this system. I think you are vastly simplifying how these mechanisms are in play.

 

I don't think that actions you take during the DvL war that earn the sides points are the same points you earn on your character's alignment. I certainly didn't walk away from the livestream thinking that. I suspect that alignment points will remain earned in the same ways they are currently: by conversation choices, and through diplomacy missions. We know that the server tally getting updated periodically is determined by participating in content via the galactic command interface, and also there will be a new UI element that will let you choose which side you want your points to contribute to. I was unclear when Charles Boyd was speaking about it whether convo choices add to a server's tally in the same way that these GC activities contribute.

 

But, Musco did say that a role-played neutral character (say, a smuggler or BH) might choose to tip the scales in favor of the losing side if one side is becoming too dominant. That seems to indicate being neutral is still allowed in the system. Since its not really possible to have a zero score mathematically (you are forced to make at least one binary L/D choice in your class story on your starter planet before you hit level 10 and can pvp to level up, unless you exclusively level via GSF, which hardly anyone does), you'll still have some weighting that will enable you to access the rewards of the hourly? winner. Or so I gleaned from the livestream.

[americanaussie]

I have grey toons. Is anyone a perfect 0? Besides low level characters?

 

And it doesn't make them obsolete they just don't get access to the special vendor. I don't pvp. It's the same concept. On that one character you may not be involved in the dvl. It's like conquest or rakghoul plague. You just don't participate.

[Limariko]

My interpretation of Ch. 12 was that the interpretation of the Force as the Jedi saw it (and subsequently influenced the later Sith variant) as seen through their dogma was wrong. Strip away the dogma and the Force simply Is, and anything else is the user's understanding of it. Case in point, during the Warrior's storyline on Hoth:

 

 

The Jedi master that Baras wants you to kill states he's been in such deep meditation of the Force, his understanding of the Force is beyond most Jedi or Sith's. He even mentions he's progressed so far he can sustain himself through the Force alone which was something only known of the original Sith species because their connection to the Force was so strong.

 

 

As far as Satele and Marr's advice went, it was to not follow the dogma at the expense of what one feels through the Force. Going from what we've seen in the movies, it's following the dogma blindly that causes the problems such as having any attachments/emotions isn't a problem but how one is able to cope/deal with them.

[Aowin]

It is not "you need to be neutral" it is "you need to wield both sides" which is NOT grey.

 

So many people fail at the wording regarding the lore and terminology. A 'grey' Jedi is one that ignores the council (qui-gon jin) to do what is right and a 'grey' Sith is one that ignores the Darths to do something.

 

Grey =/= neutral

You can wield both sides of the force, responsibly, and still not be neutral or grey.

 

A few corrections here.

 

Wielding "both sides" is nonsensical. The Dark Side is a cancer and is corruption. The moment you use the Dark Side, you have been corrupted. This is why BioWare needs to actually explain what is happening in the story.

 

A better example of a Gray Jedi would be Jolee Bindo, not Qui-Gon Jin. Jolee had disagreements with morals and the code of the Jedi, thus he left and became a hermit. He was still a Jedi in the sense that he shared many of the same principles and beliefs, but one that did not follow the Jedi Order. Qui-Gon Jin, while rebellious, was still a member of the Jedi Order. He didn't always agree with their methods, but ultimately he was still very much a Jedi.

 

Either way, this is a bit off topic as the ability to be neutral has been removed from the game. You are either Light or Dark now. There is no in-between.

[Aowin]

...

 

Eric's remarks suggest that killing NPCs, doing missions, and really doing anything in the game (with the toggle on) will all generate points for Light or Dark (personal alignment and server alignment) depending on which side you fight for:

 

Oh! Great question that we probably didn't explain thoroughly enough. Coming with KOTET there will be a toggle on the UI that allows you to change whether you are fighting for the light or dark side. Once you click a side... any enemy you kill, any mission you complete, etc. will then earn you points for that side. If you are at Dark 5 and want to work your way towards light, simply click the light side toggle and play through the game.

 

Note that regardless of your toggle, choices made through conversation will still count as they would normally.

 

Hopefully that makes sense!

 

-eric

 

I think you may be confused with the Light and Dark tokens you can earn, which are going to be the new currency for the vendor that has special rewards if your side wins.

 

Being neutral will likely not be practical. The reason for this is because the moment you choose a side based on the toggle, you are gaining light/dark points for everything you do. The only way to maintain any sort of alignment balance would be to constantly switch between light and dark and be able to effectively calculate how long you should use the toggle before switching sides. I can't see very many players trying to game the system that way.