Those who are resistant to change are destined to perish

[Hawk_IV]

Hot Rod quote. lol.

 

For real though, the playerbase is so rooted in this old-school loot system, I really don't care if you all leave. You will all get replaced in droves when all the new players arrive. I'm not even worried.

 

I can't believe people think the changes are bad. These changes fix everything that's wrong with the old-style mmo elitist attitudes that people get from the old **** system.

 

Loot is going to be streamlined. It won't require you to down a specific boss to get a chance at rolling for a specific piece of gear. You can work at your gear at your own pace without interference.

 

I personally LOVE the new changes. And I look forward to playing with all the new players coming in. I have so many people I'm playing with, I laugh at these forums with all these people complaining. LOL

 

If it gets rid of the loot ninjas, the elitists, and the people who can't let go of old and broken systems, then good riddance!

[Vhaegrant]

Ahhh the irony.

The change is a step back in time to how gear drops used to be handled by many if not all MMOs.

 

You go into a raid, you kill a boss, the boss has a chance of dropping an item off their loot list, it may or may not be of worth to someone in the group.

 

The token system was actually put in place to cater to a more reliable way of getting gear.

[Hawk_IV]

Ahhh the irony.

The change is a step back in time to how gear drops used to be handled by many if not all MMOs.

 

You go into a raid, you kill a boss, the boss has a chance of dropping an item off their loot list, it may or may not be of worth to someone in the group.

 

The token system was actually put in place to cater to a more reliable way of getting gear.

 

This is nothing like that. You don't have to beat specific bosses at all. You can do whatever the hell you want and still work on your gear. You can do the HMOPs you want to in order to get the gear you want.

There is no limit to the gear you can get.

[Vhaegrant]

This is nothing like that. You don't have to beat specific bosses at all. You can do whatever the hell you want and still work on your gear. You can do the HMOPs you want to in order to get the gear you want.

There is no limit to the gear you can get.

By work on your gear I take it you mean cross your fingers, pray to the gods of RNG, and hope the item you want drops from the crate. Which is exactly like the old days.

 

You may not have to kill a specific boss but you are still working towards a randomly generated chance of gear dropping.

 

Without any information with regards how much effort it is to get a crate it's still up in the air how bad the impact will actually be.

 

But in general terms RNG rewards are old school. So old school it's how Dungeons and Dragons used to roll

Edited October 19, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[Rolodome]

This is nothing like that. You don't have to beat specific bosses at all. You can do whatever the hell you want and still work on your gear. You can do the HMOPs you want to in order to get the gear you want.

There is no limit to the gear you can get.

Why is it nothing like that? You're stuck rolling, rather than ever being able to get what you want reliably. Just because you can do the content you want (at a decreased speed to get gear I might add) doesn't change the fact that as it is portrayed at the moment, it's RNG to victory.

 

The opposition to this has nothing to do with resistance to change and everything to do with what the change is. The devil is in the details, as the saying goes. Gamers are not idiots. At least, not the ones posting about these changes. We play MMOs, we know we're dealing with changes all the time. Why you think that would be the hangup here is beyond me.

[Hawk_IV]

Why is it nothing like that? You're stuck rolling, rather than ever being able to get what you want reliably. Just because you can do the content you want (at a decreased speed to get gear I might add) doesn't change the fact that as it is portrayed at the moment, it's RNG to victory.

 

The opposition to this has nothing to do with resistance to change and everything to do with what the change is. The devil is in the details, as the saying goes. Gamers are not idiots. At least, not the ones posting about these changes. We play MMOs, we know we're dealing with changes all the time. Why you think that would be the hangup here is beyond me.

 

Gamers are apparently afraid of the unknown. RNG is really that bad? Go play Overwatch and try REALLY hard to get a skin you want. It's not that bad.

Just play the game until you get it. It's not hard. It's just grinding. Still hell of a lot better than grinding in other fun games like FFVIII where you had to draw 100 spells from an enemy to fill up your spellcount. XD

[ekwalizer]

Hot Rod quote. lol.

 

For real though, the playerbase is so rooted in this old-school loot system, I really don't care if you all leave. You will all get replaced in droves when all the new players arrive. I'm not even worried.

 

I can't believe people think the changes are bad. These changes fix everything that's wrong with the old-style mmo elitist attitudes that people get from the old **** system.

 

Loot is going to be streamlined. It won't require you to down a specific boss to get a chance at rolling for a specific piece of gear. You can work at your gear at your own pace without interference.

 

I personally LOVE the new changes. And I look forward to playing with all the new players coming in. I have so many people I'm playing with, I laugh at these forums with all these people complaining. LOL

 

If it gets rid of the loot ninjas, the elitists, and the people who can't let go of old and broken systems, then good riddance!

 

Simmer down there heero. Let me learn ya a thing or two. First, I must ask, where are all of these new players going to come from? KotET is simply an extension of the bad policies Bioware enacted with KotFE. Did we see a massive increase in players? Nope, we sure didn't, contrary to the Q3 report of subscriber levels near 2.0.

 

The funny thing about numbers is that they can be manipulated to look good. The tale of the tape is on the servers themselves - not the Q3.

 

All but four .... four servers are on their deathbeds and have been terminal since May 2015. KotFE did not produce an influx in repeat customers (ie subscribers) and neither did The Force Awakens.

 

No, in fact servers began dying right about the time they enacted 12X Story XP. When they followed up the expansion announcement, more players departed. Between May 2015 and January 2016 server density appears flat. No gain no loss, but when we look from January 2015 to January 2016 we clearly see a 20% reduction in server density. What I am saying here, so you don't need to read between the lines is that the neglect of actually traditional MMO content has directly resulted in the LOSS of players, not the addition of players.

 

It is the departure of the raiding and PvP community that has the servers in the shape they are currently in. So yeah ... wishing them good riddance is brilliant.

 

Why do people uninterested in Raiding need raid level gear? I've always wondered that. Single player content in this game is designed to be completed in at level Green equipment.

 

Who among the "so many people" you play with are elitists and ninja looters? Sounds like you should keep better company.

[KWONRYU]

This is nothing like that. You don't have to beat specific bosses at all. You can do whatever the hell you want and still work on your gear. You can do the HMOPs you want to in order to get the gear you want.

There is no limit to the gear you can get.

 

You may have to open twenty Command Crates before you find something useful for that particular character.

 

The is to tangible reward (just a higher rate of command rating than doing Flashpoints or Heroics) for doing Operations.

Edited October 19, 2016 by KWONRYU

[Vaalin]

Gamers are apparently afraid of the unknown. RNG is really that bad? Go play Overwatch and try REALLY hard to get a skin you want. It's not that bad.

Just play the game until you get it. It's not hard. It's just grinding. Still hell of a lot better than grinding in other fun games like FFVIII where you had to draw 100 spells from an enemy to fill up your spellcount. XD

 

Yes lets grind for the sake of grinding because grinding. RNG really is in fact that bad. I don't understand how people don't seem to comprehend this: They did it already in this game, it failed, that's why we have tokens. I know which operations I need to run in order to get a certain item of gear should I need it. I also don't want to be stuck waiting on little Jimmy who has now gotten 10 tank Gloves in a row for his DPS Guardian.

[Hawk_IV]

Simmer down there heero. Let me learn ya a thing or two. First, I must ask, where are all of these new players going to come from? KotET is simply an extension of the bad policies Bioware enacted with KotFE. Did we see a massive increase in players? Nope, we sure didn't, contrary to the Q3 report of subscriber levels near 2.0.

 

The funny thing about numbers is that they can be manipulated to look good. The tale of the tape is on the servers themselves - not the Q3.

 

All but four .... four servers are on their deathbeds and have been terminal since May 2015. KotFE did not produce an influx in repeat customers (ie subscribers) and neither did The Force Awakens.

 

No, in fact servers began dying right about the time they enacted 12X Story XP. When they followed up the expansion announcement, more players departed. Between May 2015 and January 2016 server density appears flat. No gain no loss, but when we look from January 2015 to January 2016 we clearly see a 20% reduction in server density. What I am saying here, so you don't need to read between the lines is that the neglect of actually traditional MMO content has directly resulted in the LOSS of players, not the addition of players.

 

It is the departure of the raiding and PvP community that has the servers in the shape they are currently in. So yeah ... wishing them good riddance is brilliant.

 

Why do people uninterested in Raiding need raid level gear? I've always wondered that. Single player content in this game is designed to be completed in at level Green equipment.

 

Who among the "so many people" you play with are elitists and ninja looters? Sounds like you should keep better company.

 

I was just trolling the people like you because you think these changes are bad.

The people in gen chat, they're the garbage of the population, often.

 

I am happily in a guild that's growing and doing more content every day. Running everything from Ranked WZs to NiM content. I've never been happier in this game.

 

So I'm saying good riddance to all the complainers because you can't see the benefits of these new updates

[Rolodome]

Gamers are apparently afraid of the unknown. RNG is really that bad? Go play Overwatch and try REALLY hard to get a skin you want. It's not that bad.

Just play the game until you get it. It's not hard. It's just grinding. Still hell of a lot better than grinding in other fun games like FFVIII where you had to draw 100 spells from an enemy to fill up your spellcount. XD

Afraid of the unknown in what way?

 

Yes, RNG can be pretty bad. Peoples' tolerance for it varies, but you have to remember that individual tolerance for it is partially dependent on how overall lucky one is. There will always be people who get the worst luck imaginable and suffer needlessly because someone decided that it's cool to simulate one of the worst aspects of the real world.

 

It's not dissimilar to how RL is laid out. Some get lucky and get exactly what they want without much effort. Others do their damnedest and end up homeless and dying. Obviously a game is not the same as RL. No one is dying or homeless in the game for reals and it's just entertainment. But the point is, forcing a single path of luck on people borders on sadism, considering that it's a damn game and they can dictate how it works.

 

It's insane the things businesses will do to keep money coming in, with little regard for how it affects people. I hate to go there right now, but I'm going to anyway... addiction in games is a serious thing and is hardly even acknowledged, while it's ceaselessly exploited by suits. Then you have people like yourself "trolling", as you put, not understanding the crap you're buying into and laughing at the misfortune of others, while you casually go along with what's to come because it hasn't struck a nerve with you... yet.

 

People can be so cruel when they aren't the ones whose front window has been broken. Then suddenly it becomes personal and they 180 faster than you can believe.

 

One of the most important lessons of life... take it or leave it: Find it in your heart or head to care about the problems that don't affect you because one day they will reach your doorstep and there won't be anyone left to fight with you.

 

Or you could forget this whole convo and go play the game and enjoy it because we both know that's what you're actually here, at SWTOR, for.

[Hawk_IV]

Afraid of the unknown in what way?

 

Yes, RNG can be pretty bad. Peoples' tolerance for it varies, but you have to remember that individual tolerance for it is partially dependent on how overall lucky one is. There will always be people who get the worst luck imaginable and suffer needlessly because someone decided that it's cool to simulate one of the worst aspects of the real world.

 

First off, you're acting as if these changes are misfortune to some but not me. I'm getting the exact same changes as you, pal. We're all getting the same ice cream, I'm just not the one complaining about a little brain freeze.

 

If the RNG is that bad, the hell of the world mushed into a game, then I will agree with most of what you said. I will be on your side. But I HIGHLY doubt the RNG will be as bad as you say. I doubt it's going to take ages to gear, because they would lose most of their subs after that. If these changes are so bad, they wouldn't be implemented.

 

But if they are as bad as people are saying? (Which I doubt) Then we can say goodbye to swtor. But I'm banking on the fact that it won't be that bad. RNG doesn't have to be bad. It's been apart of the crafting system since the dawn of this game, and the crafters don't complain much. (reverse engineering)

[Khevar]

It's been apart of the crafting system since the dawn of this game, and the crafters don't complain much. (reverse engineering)

As someone who has spent a lot of time in the Crafting sub-forum over the past 4 years, I can assure you that the complaints about reverse-engineering RNG were practically unending until the rate was raised to 60% (from 20%, which itself was raised from 10% in the early game).

 

Hardly a week would go by before someone would have to give a lesson on the Gambler's Fallacy to posters irritated with the mechanism.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Khevar

[QuiveringPotato]

First off, you're acting as if these changes are misfortune to some but not me. I'm getting the exact same changes as you, pal. We're all getting the same ice cream, I'm just not the one complaining about a little brain freeze.

 

If the RNG is that bad, the hell of the world mushed into a game, then I will agree with most of what you said. I will be on your side. But I HIGHLY doubt the RNG will be as bad as you say. I doubt it's going to take ages to gear, because they would lose most of their subs after that. If these changes are so bad, they wouldn't be implemented.

 

But if they are as bad as people are saying? (Which I doubt) Then we can say goodbye to swtor. But I'm banking on the fact that it won't be that bad. RNG doesn't have to be bad. It's been apart of the crafting system since the dawn of this game, and the crafters don't complain much. (reverse engineering)

 

Let me give you an example of Bioware's RNG.

 

I had to open over 180 of those heroic boxes to get the chestpiece for the Remnant Underworld Agent set. I got duplicates of just about everything except for the stuff I wanted.

 

I don't even enjoy doing PVE.

Edited October 19, 2016 by QuiveringPotato

[Hawk_IV]

Some get lucky and get exactly what they want without much effort. Others do their damnedest and end up homeless and dying.

 

I'm a little surprised you're so far down this road that you're comparing the RNG of a loot crate in SWTOR to the damn world reality and perils that people face. Like ***? It's a game, these are rewards. I could've lived with you comparing it to slots and hypercrates, but this? Like cmon, it's not healthy to be that negative about things like games.

[Hawk_IV]

Let me give you an example of Bioware's RNG.

 

I had to open over 180 of those heroic boxes to get the chestpiece for the Remnant Underworld Agent set.

 

I don't even enjoy doing PVE.

 

Let me give you another example of BioWare's RNG.

Most crafters will successfully reverse engineer a 220 optimized piece on their first try. MOST CRAFTERS!

That's over half the crafters successfully reverse engineering the 2nd best gear in the game.

[AllisonLightning]

As someone who has spent a lot of time in the Crafting sub-forum over the past 4 years, I can assure you that the complaints about reverse-engineering RNG were practically unending until the rate was raised to 60% (from 20%, which itself was raised from 10% in the early game).

 

Hardly a week would go by before someone would have to give a lesson on the Gambler's Fallacy to posters irritated with the mechanism.

 

This does encourage me to endgame craft more and get my crew skills up for more than Synthweaving. But I had to reverse engineer one mod twelve frelling times just to get the improved version. I can't imagine 10%.

[Vhaegrant]

Let me give you an example of Bioware's RNG.

 

I had to open over 180 of those heroic boxes to get the chestpiece for the Remnant Underworld Agent set. I got duplicates of just about everything except for the stuff I wanted.

 

I don't even enjoy doing PVE.

 

I win! 790 and I still haven't got the remnant resurrected Agent's wrist.

I know, you can't even see it, but I need the whole set or it looks scruffy in the inventory pane

[Cypherz]

First off, you're acting as if these changes are misfortune to some but not me. I'm getting the exact same changes as you, pal. We're all getting the same ice cream, I'm just not the one complaining about a little brain freeze.

 

If the RNG is that bad, the hell of the world mushed into a game, then I will agree with most of what you said. I will be on your side. But I HIGHLY doubt the RNG will be as bad as you say. I doubt it's going to take ages to gear, because they would lose most of their subs after that. If these changes are so bad, they wouldn't be implemented.

 

But if they are as bad as people are saying? (Which I doubt) Then we can say goodbye to swtor. But I'm banking on the fact that it won't be that bad. RNG doesn't have to be bad. It's been apart of the crafting system since the dawn of this game, and the crafters don't complain much. (reverse engineering)

 

Oh my sweet summer child... Bioware has a long history of not giving a **** about what its players think and going through with bad decisions anyways, despite any sort of overwhelming bad feedback about said decision. Then when it ends up on live servers and they realize their screw up, they take their sweet *** time (months in some cases) to fix it.

 

Slot machine, NiM loot in 4.0, Overall raid quality and bugginess in 3.0, pretty much any exploit since Ravagers. The list goes on.

 

This new one though with endgame gear through RNG, that one takes the cake well above and beyond anything before it. Musta been some good kush they were smoking.

 

And like the guy above said. Just because one of those problems didn't affect you doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. Food for thought.

[denavin]

By work on your gear I take it you mean cross your fingers, pray to the gods of RNG, and hope the item you want drops from the crate.

 

No more like casual players will now be able to get the best gear in the game without having to try to find an Op where you will not get kicked for not knowing the strat.

 

This is the death of Eliteisim not SWTorR.

 

I too think this is the best thing for the casual player.

 

As for PvP don't like it, not interested in it, not going to do it and yes I have played PvP games before, I have tried it and NO I do not like it.

[Rolodome]

First off, you're acting as if these changes are misfortune to some but not me. I'm getting the exact same changes as you, pal. We're all getting the same ice cream, I'm just not the one complaining about a little brain freeze.

 

If the RNG is that bad, the hell of the world mushed into a game, then I will agree with most of what you said. I will be on your side. But I HIGHLY doubt the RNG will be as bad as you say. I doubt it's going to take ages to gear, because they would lose most of their subs after that. If these changes are so bad, they wouldn't be implemented.

 

But if they are as bad as people are saying? (Which I doubt) Then we can say goodbye to swtor. But I'm banking on the fact that it won't be that bad. RNG doesn't have to be bad. It's been apart of the crafting system since the dawn of this game, and the crafters don't complain much. (reverse engineering)

Well, people are reacting to the information they have. You're welcome to disagree with those reactions, but they are what they are and downplaying it or implying people are overreacting doesn't change the reality of what those reactions are, nor does it change the fact that if people follow through on those reactions and the system is pushed out the way it is perceived to be right now, a lot of people will probably leave.

 

Where I'm coming from, is I've seen online game companies try to put out stuff that gets a near unanimous negative reaction, and typically, if they address the main concerns in some capacity, it puts out the fire and a lot of people stick around, if for no other reason than that "faith restored" moment. Usually the worst they can do is absolutely nothing because then it just snowballs into this belief that the company doesn't care about player concerns. Gauging whether a response is necessary is, of course, not an exact science.

 

But this is not the first time I've been through one of these reactionary "events" and I'm sure it won't be the last. All the usual stuff is happening as it usually does. You have the numerous ongoing threads, the vets and guild leaders saying how it's going to cause them to leave the game and this is the first time they've really felt pushed over the edge. You have the "it's not that bad" threads coming out of the woodwork, or even the "I like it" threads, typically a day or so after in response to all of the negativity. And sometimes you have the "I love you X company" thread as a sort of buffer to all the negativity. Not sure we've gotten that last one yet, but we did get an "it's not Musco's fault" thread, so close enough.

 

They're doing another livestream on thursday and I can't imagine they won't at least acknowledge what's being discussed right now.

 

But release will be the true test of how it shakes out. I don't think it's going to kill the game, but it has the potential to do a lot of damage as it is currently perceived. The siren brigade is really just people trying to stop the damage from happening before it does. The dramatic nature of it is always more overblown sounding than the actual circumstances would be, but the point, generally speaking, with these mass drama events is to get the company to realize that this is not "normal levels" of concern and maybe they should reevaluate some things.

[AngFour]

Let me give you another example of BioWare's RNG.

Most crafters will successfully reverse engineer a 220 optimized piece on their first try. MOST CRAFTERS!

That's over half the crafters successfully reverse engineering the 2nd best gear in the game.

 

Now you have to keep in mind that those crafters have to get that piece first. AND THEN they have to succeed on the reverse engineering. And many won't. Not on their first try. So they just destroyed a piece of armor that they might not be able to get again for God knows how long.

 

Do you see the problem yet? Or are you just trolling for the lulz?

Edited October 19, 2016 by AngFour

[Rolodome]

I'm a little surprised you're so far down this road that you're comparing the RNG of a loot crate in SWTOR to the damn world reality and perils that people face. Like ***? It's a game, these are rewards. I could've lived with you comparing it to slots and hypercrates, but this? Like cmon, it's not healthy to be that negative about things like games.

I said that they are obviously not the same and it's just a game, but that the point of the comparison was how they (devs) don't actually have to put that type of unfairness in games and yet they choose to anyway. One of the primary modern motivations for it is the business of keeping people on a treadmill.

 

i.e. games are meant to be an escape from the real world? Not an extension of it.

[Vhaegrant]

No more like casual players will now be able to get the best gear in the game without having to try to find an Op where you will not get kicked for not knowing the strat.

 

This is the death of Eliteisim not SWTorR.

 

I too think this is the best thing for the casual player.

 

As for PvP don't like it, not interested in it, not going to do it and yes I have played PvP games before, I have tried it and NO I do not like it.

This all depends on just how long it takes to get a crate and what are the chances of the gear you need dropping.

I'll be interested to see just how quick Command Rank can be increased by the sort of solo casual content people are playing at the moment.

Also bear in mind that the Command Rank determines the value of the gear in the crate, so depending on what the max level is and the number of tiers of gear really depends on when the real pain of grinding out content will start.

I've not seen any official comment on these values yet.

[Vhaegrant]

I said that they are obviously not the same and it's just a game, but that the point of the comparison was how they (devs) don't actually have to put that type of unfairness in games and yet they choose to anyway. One of the primary modern motivations for it is the business of keeping people on a treadmill.

 

i.e. games are meant to be an escape from the real world? Not an extension of it.

 

I've always thought it weird that MMOs typically have to bribe their players with rewards to play. I wonder if SWTOR could learn anything from a game like Kerbal SPace Program that has a sandbox mode that just puts the game out there for people to play with.

 

Would a free for all phase where you can build up any ability combination, and a full disclaimer that it won't be balanced be that bad if it was fun but had no credit/ comms/ vanity fluff reward?