I'm sick of the order and their watered down sense of real Justice

[Spetulhu]

As far as Violently killing people who violently kill other people, there's a word for that-- Karma, just desserts, retribution, justice... ect. Sparing terrorist and malcontents is only enabling them the chance to commit further atrocities within the republic and thus endangering it further. Poison is meant to be expelled from the system, not regulated to it.

 

Summarily executing helpless prisoners (like the royal family or Boris Ulgo) would be a war crime or straight-up murder. A Jedi isn't given any special right to ignore laws or pass judgement on people. If he goes about playing Judge Dredd he's become the poison in the system and needs to be drawn out.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Spetulhu

[Aeristash]

There is a fine line between Justice and Vengeance. And I think you need to learn the difference, OP.

 

Yeah, it's a line called political correctness that can be safely ignored.

[Rolodome]

Of course it's emotional satisfaction, for his Victims. The people he murdered are deteriorating in graves, they don't get the luxury of reviewing their mistakes or transgressions in a cell so why should he? Commit mass murder, plead insanity, go to rehab and then be paraded once more as a pillar of society before those he unjustly injured? If that's the case, what's to stop the next uppity denizen from killing his liege, seizing power and pleading a bad day when he gets caught? And the next.... the next... and the next? That's propagating murder, regicide and gross injustice. Examples must be set and debts repaid.

 

That's like Malak & Revan (Post emperor) bombarding whole planets full of innocent people & children who had caused them no offense and yet the Jedi were ready to welcome them back with open arms to rehabilitate them while their victims lay in unmarked graves or in Malaks case; eaten or turned into monstrous Rakghouls. Should they not have been made to suffer the same fate as their victims? Malak only died grudgingly because he refused to be redeemed and Revan? He went on to find love and a family in spite of the billions he forever tore apart. Oh wait... He did say he felt bad about what he did. Really puts all those childrens charred & scattered bones at ease knowing he contemplated his actions and felt bad while he's celebrating his own wifes pregnancy right?

So what you're saying is that you want to imagine you're making someone's victims feel better by feeling emotional satisfaction in yourself.

 

Just sounds to me like you want to feel a certain way. I don't see how this is about the victims if they are already dead. You can't bring people back, but if you can get a killer turned to the point where they're doing good for society, I'd call that a win... they can slowly began to repair some of the damage they did.

 

"Debts" are already repaid by most justice systems, in the form of people being locked in a prison cell for years, decades, or even a life sentence. I'm not sure where you're getting this picture that a mass killer would be rehabilitated in a month and then be paraded around as a pillar of society. Also not sure where you got the insanity plea idea.

 

I'm sure Bouris Ulgo knew full well what he was doing. But, it's unlikely he's the sort of person who is so far gone mentally that he can't regulate morality at all. It's possible a guy like him can be made to see the folly of his actions over time. That's not the same as making an insanity plea.

 

Examples are set by locking people up for a very long time. Debts are repaid in the same way. Thinking you need someone to pay in blood is going beyond the pale. No matter how horribly you kill them, you will never make up for all of the lives they took.

[Aeristash]

I admit, you've done a fine job of RPing a Dark Jedi, although I also don't think you understand how trials work or why they exist.

 

I believe trials exist to give a man a fair chance to account for his crimes and be judged before a committee of his peers. That's all well & good excepting when the offender in question has been caught red handed in the middle of his treachery, then it's just needless bureaucratic boondoggle. Does the survivors a disservice to hear some mad man give his spiel about why he thought it appropriate to mow down their loved ones to serve his own aims. Best to put em down and let the force sort em out.

[Aeristash]

Summarily executing helpless prisoners (like the royal family or Boris Ulgo) would be a war crime or straight-up murder. A Jedi isn't given any special right to ignore laws or pass judgement on people. If he goes about playing Judge Dredd he's become the poison in the system and needs to be drawn out.

 

Boris ulgo a helpless prisoner... lol is that before or after he tries to add you to his collective body count? You can't murder a murderous regicide, only bring them to justice. The royal family are the only innocents in that equation. As far as the Jedi having no special privilege to pass judgement on people-- That hasn't been true since the republics founding. The republic looks to the Jedi to protect it, guide its stagnant form and establish peace against the empire and beyond. The only reason the Jedi hold back on their authority is because of their own morality. If a Jedi executed twice the number of pirates or Sand people as Nok drayen, the republic wouldn't question it. The order itself is another question.

[SithKoriandr]

I believe trials exist to give a man a fair chance to account for his crimes and be judged before a committee of his peers. That's all well & good excepting when the offender in question has been caught red handed in the middle of his treachery, then it's just needless bureaucratic boondoggle. Does the survivors a disservice to hear some mad man give his spiel about why he thought it appropriate to mow down their loved ones to serve his own aims. Best to put em down and let the force sort em out.

 

I will agree on that. However, once they surrender, then if you do it yourself, it's murder too. Yes, the person should/deserves to die, but that boondoggle is what separates the murder from the executioner.

 

Admittedly, the game doesn't tend to give you that "Cut them down before they surrender" option.

 

The boondoggle could also be shortened down considerably.

 

But looking back at a previous comment, you have to remember the setting. Star Wars. There's a difference between a force user and a non-force user.

 

Yes, many a dark force user can end up reveling in the dark side, but with how the force is explained, it can warp you. Put in some teachings or bad experiences and it can lead down the dark path. The ones who do, are often powerful enough, that it can be a serious problem.

 

That's why it's different for force users. They don't have the choice in having or not having the force, they have it. With it, they get straddled with lots of power and not always ways to use it/handle it well.

 

Non force user gets upset. They get upset, they yell, scream, punch the wall. No foul.

 

Force user gets upset. They could accidentally shatter every bone in someone's body without even many to do it. It's why the Jedi will try to get dark siders back into the light. Though, should be stated, this isn't even always the case.

 

Made worse when one is raised in the Empire, Hutt Cartel or with Mandos. Their ethics are out of whack. They know their ethics are out of whack. They don't care. Not get raised by people in charge of those groups.

[Aeristash]

So what you're saying is that you want to imagine you're making someone's victims feel better by feeling emotional satisfaction in yourself.

 

Oh? You're saying that the families of the murdered husbands, wives & children would feel no satisfaction at the perpetrators demise. You don't think they feel a bit of relief at knowing the one who broke their family will never break another? Across Alderaan, there are literally 3 people that want ulgo to live- A Jedi master, the male panteer heir and the republic captain. Everyone else calls out for blood and his family's ruin. Lord Teral made my counslar an official Lord of Alderaan after I gave into his pleas to help break the entirety of the Ulgo family after they had slaughtered his own. Seems I'm not the only one that enjoys seeing a monster put down.

 

Just sounds to me like you want to feel a certain way. I don't see how this is about the victims if they are already dead. You can't bring people back' date=' but if you can get a killer turned to the point where they're doing good for society, I'd call that a win... they can slowly began to repair some of the damage they did. [/quote']

 

So because they're dead, they don't deserve any justice since they can't be brought back to life anyway? Better to try and save the tool still in working condition than worry about those already broken at the bottom of the bin? I don't know whether that dismissiveness is pragmatic or heartless. Do you think people really want to see Arcann rebuilding villages with his hammer after he blew up 3 planets full of trillions of people to send a message? The damage is done, there is no repairing it, only healing & moving on without the X factor that caused it to begin with.

 

"Debts" are already repaid by most justice systems' date=' in the form of people being locked in a prison cell for years, decades, or even a life sentence. I'm not sure where you're getting this picture that a mass killer would be rehabilitated in a month and then be paraded around as a pillar of society. Also not sure where you got the insanity plea idea. [/quote']

 

Except for when you kill the Justice system along with the people it's supposed to serve. That Queen dear Bouris mauled? She was the dispensary for the law of the land. With her demise, it falls to the worlds people to bring justice to the offender, not some unaffiliated republic judge on coruscant who would levy even one life Ulgo saved against one he took.

 

I'm sure Bouris Ulgo knew full well what he was doing. But' date=' it's unlikely he's the sort of person who is so far gone mentally that he can't regulate morality at all. It's possible a guy like him can be made to see the folly of his actions over time. That's not the same as making an insanity plea[/b'].

 

Examples are set by locking people up for a very long time. Debts are repaid in the same way. Thinking you need someone to pay in blood is going beyond the pale. No matter how horribly you kill them, you will never make up for all of the lives they took.

 

It's not about making up, it's about making sure it never has the chance to happen again whether it be from him or any would be copycats. As for the bolded-- Yeah, that is. Either he was sane when he started butchering people or his Mentality was on the rocks and needs rehabilitation. It can't be both. Either way as I said before, that's a propagation of murder & regicide. Slaughter your queen and your countrymen but worry not, the survivors will help fund your meal & psych consultations on the tax payers dime? Because that's not adding insult to injury. For all the Empires faults, it has one thing right; 'What is one mans sanity or life versus the fate of the Empire?'

Edited October 13, 2016 by Aeristash

[Aeristash]

I will agree on that. However, once they surrender, then if you do it yourself, it's murder too. Yes, the person should/deserves to die, but that boondoggle is what separates the murder from the executioner.

 

Admittedly, the game doesn't tend to give you that "Cut them down before they surrender" option.

 

The boondoggle could also be shortened down considerably.

 

But looking back at a previous comment, you have to remember the setting. Star Wars. There's a difference between a force user and a non-force user.

 

Yes, many a dark force user can end up reveling in the dark side, but with how the force is explained, it can warp you. Put in some teachings or bad experiences and it can lead down the dark path. The ones who do, are often powerful enough, that it can be a serious problem.

 

That's why it's different for force users. They don't have the choice in having or not having the force, they have it. With it, they get straddled with lots of power and not always ways to use it/handle it well.

 

Non force user gets upset. They get upset, they yell, scream, punch the wall. No foul.

 

Force user gets upset. They could accidentally shatter every bone in someone's body without even many to do it. It's why the Jedi will try to get dark siders back into the light. Though, should be stated, this isn't even always the case.

 

Made worse when one is raised in the Empire, Hutt Cartel or with Mandos. Their ethics are out of whack. They know their ethics are out of whack. They don't care. Not get raised by people in charge of those groups.

 

I agree with the latter half of your statement, but you say one should separate themselves from the murderer. That's the guardian ideal but doesn't motive alone make one better than the murderer? Can one who kills for the greater safety of the republic truly be equated to one who kills for malice or petty gain? I'm reminded of Lana beniko's training on Korriban and how in her early days she showed mercy to a murderer who surrendered but ended up coming back and killing one of her companions. Would she have been a monster if she had put the animal down before it could do real damage? Would her friend have still been alive if she had the aptitude to act when it counted?

[SithKoriandr]

I agree with the latter half of your statement, but you say one should separate themselves from the murderer. That's the guardian ideal but doesn't motive alone make one better than the murderer? Can one who kills for the greater safety of the republic truly be equated to one who kills for malice or petty gain? I'm reminded of Lana beniko's training on Korriban and how in her early days she showed mercy to a murderer who surrendered but ended up coming back and killing one of her companions. Would she have been a monster if she had put the animal down before it could do real damage? Would her friend have still been alive if she had the aptitude to act when it counted?

 

I can totally see it from that side. I don't know if her killing a murderer would make her a monster, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't make her a killer, depending on her own motives.

 

There are two core things a successful society needs to follow...don't murder your own and don't steal from your own. Sith fail at both of those. Like all of them The few who don't are in the minority and considered a threat by those who do fail.

[rashencyberspeed]

Yeah, it's a line called political correctness that can be safely ignored.

 

It's not about political correctness, it's about not becoming a monster who's just as bad as (if not worse than) the people you fight against.

 

"I'm good, they're evil" is an excuse by some of the worst human beings to ever live in real life.

[Rolodome]

Oh? You're saying that the families of the murdered husbands, wives & children would feel no satisfaction at the perpetrators demise. You don't think they feel a bit of relief at knowing the one who broke their family will never break another? Across Alderaan, there are literally 3 people that want ulgo to live- A Jedi master, the male panteer heir and the republic captain. Everyone else calls out for blood and his family's ruin. Lord Teral made my counslar an official Lord of Alderaan after I gave into his pleas to help break the entirety of the Ulgo family after they had slaughtered his own. Seems I'm not the only one that enjoys seeing a monster put down.

 

 

 

So because they're dead, they don't deserve any justice since they can't be brought back to life anyway? Better to try and save the tool still in working condition than worry about those already broken at the bottom of the bin? I don't know whether that dismissiveness is pragmatic or heartless. Do you think people really want to see Arcann rebuilding villages with his hammer after he blew up 3 planets full of trillions of people to send a message? The damage is done, there is no repairing it, only healing & moving on without the X factor that caused it to begin with.

 

 

 

Except for when you kill the Justice system along with the people it's supposed to serve. That Queen dear Bouris mauled? She was the dispensary for the law of the land. With her demise, it falls to the worlds people to bring justice to the offender, not some unaffiliated republic judge on coruscant who would levy even one life Ulgo saved against one he took.

 

 

 

It's not about making up, it's about making sure it never has the chance to happen again whether it be from him or any would be copycats. As for the bolded-- Yeah, that is. Either he was sane when he started butchering people or his Mentality was on the rocks and needs rehabilitation. It can't be both. Either way as I said before, that's a propagation of murder & regicide. Slaughter your queen and your countrymen but worry not, the survivors will help fund your meal & psych consultations on the tax payers dime? Because that's not adding insult to injury. For all the Empires faults, it has one thing right; 'What is one mans sanity or life versus the fate of the Empire?'

How exactly is the justice system being killed? Why/how will it happen again?

 

You have not explained either of these points, yet you've made them more than once.

[Aeristash]

I can totally see it from that side. I don't know if her killing a murderer would make her a monster, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't make her a killer, depending on her own motives.

 

There are two core things a successful society needs to follow...don't murder your own and don't steal from your own. Sith fail at both of those. Like all of them The few who don't are in the minority and considered a threat by those who do fail.

 

Agreed

[Aeristash]

It's not about political correctness, it's about not becoming a monster who's just as bad as (if not worse than) the people you fight against.

 

"I'm good, they're evil" is an excuse by some of the worst human beings to ever live in real life.

 

Monsters don't slay monsters. Heroes do. Senya is a fine example of one who can take a monster to task and still keep her principles without breaking a sweat. But then again not everyone can have the strength of mind, body & spirit to do what must be done for the greater good.

[Xilizhra]

Monsters don't slay monsters. Heroes do. Senya is a fine example of one who can take a monster to task and still keep her principles without breaking a sweat. But then again not everyone can have the strength of mind, body & spirit to do what must be done for the greater good.

Er, monsters slay monsters all the damn time; how do you think advancement among the Sith works?

[Aeristash]

How exactly is the justice system being killed? Why/how will it happen again?

 

You have not explained either of these points, yet you've made them more than once.

 

I did actually in paragraphs 3 & 4. The business with the queens death and emboldening copy cats. The latter I've answered 2 or 3 times throughout the thread already.

[Aeristash]

Er, monsters slay monsters all the damn time; how do you think advancement among the Sith works?

 

^ Exactly why monsters don't slay monsters. The Sith don't kill their betters out of a sense of morality, outrage or justice, they kill or rather order assassinations with the intent to replace them in their position on the political ladder.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Aeristash

[Xilizhra]

^ Exactly why monsters don't slay monsters. The Sith don't kill their betters out of a sense of morality, outrage or justice, they kill or rather order assassinations with the intent to replace them in their position on the political ladder.

I should point out that morality/outrage/justice are insufficient reasons in and of themselves to kill someone; thinking that they are is how we get lynch mobs.

 

Also, the Panteers only want Bouris Ulgo dead in the Republic questline. In the Imperial one, the Panteers want him alive to stand trial, while the Empire wants him dead. In that situation, would you bow to the will of the Alderaanians?

[rashencyberspeed]

^ Exactly why monsters don't slay monsters. The Sith don't kill their betters out of a sense of morality, outrage or justice, they kill or rather order assassinations with the intent to replace them in their position on the political ladder.

 

Regardless of intent, it's still villains killing other villains.

 

In addition, if intent really made all the difference, that would make Chancellor Saresh a hero.

[casirabit]

I am going to say you actually should stick to the Empire.

 

I have played the Republic numerous times and while I could see excuses being made to kill this person or that, it is not our job as a jedi to be the executioner. We should bring the person, if at all possible, back to either stand trial for what they have done or they know what they did was wrong and given a second chance.

 

I work in the legal field for a living and there are numerous people that are brought to justice that actually do change and then go and make amends to people for what they have done. In fact, there are people that have had their love ones killed, that actually forgive the person and go on with their lives. They don't look for revenge which is exactly what you are considering when you kill someone that knows they have done wrong.

 

It is easier to kill someone out of a misplace idea of revenge or you are doing something to remove that person but it is actually harder for a person to actually take that person in and give them another chance.

 

We are not called on to be the executioner. We are call to try to bring that person back for justice or show the person where they are wrong and hope they will make a change.

[fovzwk]

The Sith don't kill their betters out of a sense of morality, outrage or justice.

Neither do you. You do it to satisfy your Video-game murder-bon*r which you justify by "they are bad people so it is only fair when I mistreat, torture and kill them without mercy."

And satisfying your virtual muder-bon*r is a fine reson to play darkside Republic characters. (I personally prefer it over Empire darkside as well.) But don't make it out to be the actual "good option". Because we all know it isn't and we know you really only do it because you get your kicks out of violently slaughtering NPCs.

Edited October 13, 2016 by fovzwk

[SithKoriandr]

Regardless of intent, it's still villains killing other villains.

 

In addition, if intent really made all the difference, that would make Chancellor Saresh a hero.

 

Don't know about that. Saresh seems more of a power hungry politician, who while maybe trying to make the Republic better than it was, is doing it for her own gain, with little care for those she is supposed to be serving.

 

Saresh just wants to be in control. She'd also rather live in a nice galaxy than an ugly one. Likely because she escaped being a slave.

 

Though, as a note, I just read her wiki, which seems to say the Hunter did kill the previous Chancellor. Even though, you get a choice on the matter. Is this assuming, all Imps are DS and all Reps are LS?

[rashencyberspeed]

Don't know about that. Saresh seems more of a power hungry politician, who while maybe trying to make the Republic better than it was, is doing it for her own gain, with little care for those she is supposed to be serving.

 

Saresh just wants to be in control. She'd also rather live in a nice galaxy than an ugly one. Likely because she escaped being a slave.

 

Though, as a note, I just read her wiki, which seems to say the Hunter did kill the previous Chancellor. Even though, you get a choice on the matter. Is this assuming, all Imps are DS and all Reps are LS?

 

The wiki goes with that because writing the article to be completely neutral would be a pain in the butt.

 

Anyways, there is absolutely no question that Saresh is power-mad and not a good person, but she honestly truly believes that she's doing the right thing, and that she's the best person suited for power. She does it out of a sense of justice. A narrow-minded and extremely self-righteous sense of justice, but a sense of justice nonetheless.

[drfumblez]

(( Ow the edge on this post, btw. But semi-serious answer below. ))

 

Everything you've described reeks of revenge and vengeance. Emotional reactions that result in being unable to control your own sense of self. A belief that because someone committed evil, you may do unto them the same. You have declared yourself executioner; barely acknowledging a judge, and ignoring the jury.

 

I'm not surprised though. Revenge is easy. To give into impulse, to attack those who have wounded you or those you have deemed to attack what you protect is nature, natural. You blame the Jedi for being too weak, too pacifistic. I say you have no concept of what is to actually enforce justice, to practice restraint and mercy. To emotionally detach yourself from the horrors of evil so that society, not you, be the judge of their fate.

 

The truth of the matter is that as much as you say enforce "justice," you don't. You couldn't stomach justice, and most people can't. Because everything you continue to describe is me, me, me. Justice has never been, and never shall be, personal. Justice is for the whole of humanity. Justice must always be for both sides, or there is no justice.

[TrekkerVGER]

I never thought I'd ever say this. Even typing it makes me nauseous. OP, you may like Dragon Age 2.

[SithKoriandr]

The truth of the matter is that as much as you say enforce "justice," you don't. You couldn't stomach justice, and most people can't. Because everything you continue to describe is me, me, me. Justice has never been, and never shall be, personal. Justice is for the whole of humanity. Justice must always be for both sides, or there is no justice.

 

While not all examples work, I'd say there's a good chance just killing one of his examples (the Correllian) may just help all of Alderaan. He's done enough bad. In jail he could be a reason for his followers not to stop and get him free, as well as cost money to keep him in prison.

 

There are plenty victims who might be relieved to know he's dead. Not to mention, it would allow the hangman to earn another pair of boots! No boots and his family goes hungry!