Titan 6 nim Huge Grenade damage

[rpointon]

Ok so after taking a few months off from game i finally come back and my guild is doing S&V nim, we get to the titan 6 boss and i am on my shadow, i get huge grenade and as i have always done, resilience through it or at least i attempt to. Resilience does nothing, my guild later told me that the devs changed the damage of grenade to weapon damage and 7 attacks rather than one attack with force/tech damage, so in effect resilience is useless.

 

I then get told to bring my guardian tank as blade turning (with full set pc bonus) makes it take no damage - WRONG AGAIN, i lose half my life on each grenade even using warding call along with saber ward.

 

when i check starparse it clearly still shows the damage as force / tech, yet my guild tank buddy insists his grenade shows as weapon damage. Both of us are getting really punished in this fight with a damage type that should be possible to mitigate with CDs but isnt working.

 

Has anyone else noticed this ? worth a bug report ?

[Ryuku-sama]

Huge Grenade can be mitigated by two out of three tanks.

 

Sin got Shroud.

Jugg got Blade Blitz.

PT got shafted.

 

Yes. Blade Blitz mitigate every damage taken during the animation. This means you have to time it perfectly.

[Tsetso]

Huge Grenade can be mitigated by two out of three tanks.

 

Sin got Shroud.

Jugg got Blade Blitz.

PT got shafted.

 

Yes. Blade Blitz mitigate every damage taken during the animation. This means you have to time it perfectly.

 

Hmm, never thought about this but won't translocate do it if timed right?

[Ryuku-sama]

Hmm, never thought about this but won't translocate do it if timed right?

 

No. Translocate doesn't bring any inate defensive buffs.

[Botho]

It was weapon damage from the beginning in NiM, I remember well as it was so easy to avoid with resilience in HM.

 

Your best options are CD's that have a flat Damage Reduction, such as Shadows Battle Readiness or Reactive Shield for VG Warding call for Knights? I cant really remember the Guardians CD's well. I suppose this Blitz as well if it reduces damage.

 

I can't honestly remember back in the day a time Huge grenade was ever Defended againts so It could be that it's just not avoidable at all only mitigated.

 

To be honest though a Bubble from a sage should be enough to survive it if you have one with you and our hp is topped off.

[Ryuku-sama]

It was weapon damage from the beginning in NiM, I remember well as it was so easy to avoid with resilience in HM.

 

Your best options are CD's that have a flat Damage Reduction, such as Shadows Battle Readiness or Reactive Shield for VG Warding call for Knights? I cant really remember the Guardians CD's well. I suppose this Blitz as well if it reduces damage.

 

I can't honestly remember back in the day a time Huge grenade was ever Defended againts so It could be that it's just not avoidable at all only mitigated.

 

To be honest though a Bubble from a sage should be enough to survive it if you have one with you and our hp is topped off.

 

Someone is mixing damage type with attack type.

 

Ok.. Lets get the long winded explanation started.

 

There are four types of attack : melee, ranged, force and tech. Saber Ward increases your chance to avoid melee and ranged and absorb part of force and tech damage.

There are four damage types : weapon/energy, kinetic, elemental, internal. Your armor reduces kinetic and energy damage.

 

It doesn't matter if Huge Grenade does energy/weapon damage or anything. The reason you could Shroud it was because it is a tech attack and Shroud increase your chance to avoid force and tech to 200% + current resist chance.

In the same way, Blade Blitz increases your chance to avoid all four attack types by 100%.

 

Attack type generally indicate how you can avoid it and damage type generally indicates what damage reduction to use. It's not as black and white as that but the basis are there.

 

Defense Rating works against melee and ranged. It doesn't work against force and tech.

Shield Rating works against kinetic and energy but not against elemental and internal.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[trashy_spartan]

As a vanguard tank, I use an absorb adrenal.

[Ryuku-sama]

As a vanguard tank, I use an absorb adrenal.

 

I know

 

My first point was Guardian and Shadow can completely negate 100% of Huge Grenade damage every time. Vanguard can at most negate 50% of it unless you stacks defensives.

[Tsetso]

No. Translocate doesn't bring any inate defensive buffs.

 

My idea was more like - translocate with a shadow/sin who uses taunt - resilence/shroud

[LordTurin]

My idea was more like - translocate with a shadow/sin who uses taunt - resilence/shroud

 

If the shadow taunts right before the grenade comes out, that would work, but if you translocate after the grenade comes out, you'll keep the grenade just be in a different spot.

 

So translocate doesn't really help with that anyway.

[nyrkverse]

shroud/resilience doesn't work on the huge grenade in NiM (anymore?). It works just fine in HM. That's the OP issue, however deflection does and it's enough for tanks and deception/infiltration (as in NiM anyone can get the grenade as you guys know).

As for hatred/serenity, given its awesome (*cough* *cough*) damage reduction I would personally add a prayer to the Force and lots of nice words for your healers

[Torvai]

Grenade counts as stun, so spec for the stun damage reduction and you'll be good even on hatred

[nyrkverse]

Ah thank you the next time I'm there I will definitely scare the healers with the squishy spec then

[Ryuku-sama]

shroud/resilience doesn't work on the huge grenade in NiM (anymore?). It works just fine in HM. That's the OP issue, however deflection does and it's enough for tanks and deception/infiltration (as in NiM anyone can get the grenade as you guys know).

As for hatred/serenity, given its awesome (*cough* *cough*) damage reduction I would personally add a prayer to the Force and lots of nice words for your healers

 

You're right.. I checked stuff better. In NiM, Huge Grenade seems to deal 7 blows of damage each of them dealing about 30% less damage than the full Huge Grenade in HM. In HM it deals only one hit. In NiM, Huge Grenade doesn't seems to be typed. But it has the Is Special Ability flag turned to false which means the game will consider the ability as a melee or ranged ability. In HM, Huge Grenade is a tech attack.

 

This means a few things. In HM, 100% resist is needed to be sure to avoid the ability. Everything else is likely to fail. On the other hand, in NiM, a partial defense increase would allow you to avoid at least 1-3 hits. Which is quite a bit considering the delta of damage between NiM Huge Grenade and HM Huge Grenade.

 

Grenade counts as stun, so spec for the stun damage reduction and you'll be good even on hatred

 

Grenade doesn't count as a stun Grenade applies a 1s stun effect with ballistic impulse and knockdown just before dealing damage. The debuff is hidden but it's still there.

It's just semantic, but Grenade is a stun. It doesn't just count as one, it is one

Edited October 5, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[Torvai]

Grenade doesn't count as a stun Grenade applies a 1s stun effect with ballistic impulse and knockdown just before dealing damage. The debuff is hidden but it's still there.

It's just semantic, but Grenade is a stun. It doesn't just count as one, it is one

Smart*ss

 

I was just told so by my Co-Tank, who mains Sin, that the stun DR works. Since I don't have it as a jugg, I rely on Mad Dash

 

Btw, if it is F/T on HM, do you, by chance, know if it can be reflected? I think when I tried it didn't work, but I'm not really sure, haven't been in HM on my Jugg for a while

Edited October 5, 2016 by Torvai

[Ryuku-sama]

Smart*ss

 

Always

 

I was just told so by my Co-Tank, who mains Sin, that the stun DR works. Since I don't have it as a jugg, I rely on Mad Dash

 

Btw, if it is F/T on HM, do you, by chance, know if it can be reflected? I think when I tried it didn't work, but I'm not really sure, haven't been in HM on my Jugg for a while

 

It's AoE. So no it cannot be reflected.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[Torvai]

It's AoE. So no it cannot be reflected.

 

Alot of AoE things can be reflected

[WheresMyWhisky]

shroud/resilience doesn't work on the huge grenade in NiM (anymore?). It works just fine in HM. That's the OP issue, however deflection does and it's enough for tanks and deception/infiltration (as in NiM anyone can get the grenade as you guys know).

As for hatred/serenity, given its awesome (*cough* *cough*) damage reduction I would personally add a prayer to the Force and lots of nice words for your healers

 

Shroud never worked in Nim as lots of us poor shadows / assassins found out to our cost when it came out. So yip overcharged sabre, deflection and absorb adrenals are your friends. If aren't topped up by healers for any reason a med pac is also a good shout.

 

On the Brightside its better than at launch of Nim when it was one big hit and if it did hit you as an assassin you pretty died, they changed it to 7 smaller hits due to the one shotting of assassins. They did have a thing for one shotting assassins in this raid as terminate was horrendous as an assassin when it came out as it was hit deflection and pray.

 

I have a feeling you can sabre reflect it as I seem to remember a lot of qq from the shadows / assassins as to why the **** resilience no longer worked but sabre reflect now did but I may have mis remembered as I hate my jugg tank with a passion so aint played it in ages

[Ryuku-sama]

Alot of AoE things can be reflected

 

We don't use AoE in the same way. When I say AoE, I mean the debuff dealing damage has a "utility.is_aoe" tag or another of the AoE tags. Basically, everything AoE DR works against, Saber Reflect and Sonic Rebounder won't work and the reverse is true.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[rpointon]

well we tried using enure + warding call on guardian and that seemed to work best, the additional temporary health + 40% dmg reduction meant that what would normally be 7 x 9k attacks = 63-64k damage was temporarily offset by the ensure and the warding call reduces the ~63k by 40% so we only take ~25k damage which isnt too bad but it would be nice if we could still mitigate the whole thing. We will try the blade blitz tac as that would make sense.

[Culoph]

Hello! I'm the OP's guild tank buddy

 

The mystery here for me is why Blade Turning fails to mitigate the Huge Grenade hits.

 

To recap, Blade Turning is the guardian passive that causes Saber Ward to grant a 100% increase in melee and ranged defense for the first 5 seconds (taking into account the War Leader 6-piece bonus).

 

On nightmare mode the attack type of Huge Grenade is melee/ranged. It follows that having Blade Turning active when the 7 Huge Grenade hit rolls take place should lead with certainty to result of Dodge, Parry, Deflect, or Resist every time. That is to say, zero damage.

 

However, that's not what happens. Perhaps the starkest example in my combat logs is this:

 

04:33.863 (00:45) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [Huge Grenade]
04:40.190 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Activated [saber Ward]
04:40.190 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [blade Turning]
04:40.191 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [saber Ward]
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (7422 kinetic [2857 Cul'miarta: Blade Barrier]) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.974 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.974 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.976 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Removed Effect [Huge Grenade]

 

Every single one of the seven flurry blows hit me, despite my defense chance exceeding 100%.

 

Huge Grenade is undoubtedly MR on NiM, and I can accept that maybe the OP's StarParse is making a mistake in assigning the attack type of force/tech (as this information is inferred and not contained in the combat logs). Also, in lieu of blade turning i've been using warding call + enure, with acceptable results. The real enigma though is why blade turning does nothing to mitigate huge grenade.

 

I've also tried using Blade Blitz in the past. Here's an example of the results:

 

08:17.178 (04:54) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [Huge Grenade]
08:23.874 (05:01) Cul'miarta: Activated [blade Blitz]
08:23.874 (05:01) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [blade Blitz]
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.161 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.163 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Removed Effect [Huge Grenade]

 

Now as we know Blade Blitz increases your defense chance by 100% for 1 second, similar to Blade Turning but of shorter duration. So the failure of Blade Blitz to prevent all damage here is equally mysterious for exactly the same reasons.

 

I can think of a few possible explanations. Perhaps what's happening is something similar to the 'snapshotting' effect seen on alacrity enhanced DoTs — I'm reminded of this thread on the subject. In this case it would be the target's defense chance at the time the Huge Grenade debuff is applied that determines the outcome of the hit rolls 7 seconds later when the debuff expires... but there are lots of debuffs in the game that don't work like that so why would this one?

 

On the other hand, perhaps the hit rolls for Huge Grenade simply ignore defense altogether? Or perhaps Huge Grenade temporarily reduces the target's defense chance? I've seen Misses (i.e. hit roll fails to meet the accuracy boundary), but never Dodges, Parries, or Deflects. The mystery remains...

 

On a side note, good to know the 30% DR from Mental Defense on shadow works I hadn't thought of that! While the OP was taking time off I often solo tanked Titan 6 NiM on shadow and it would have been quite a bit easier knowing that

[Torvai]

Not sure on Blade Barricade, but Mad Dash actually works, so my guess would be that your timing is off.

 

Yes, you combat log states, that you activated it before the detonation, but that doesn't have to be true for the server as well. Especially when we talk about a difference of ~0.5 seconds.

[Ryuku-sama]

Hello! I'm the OP's guild tank buddy

 

The mystery here for me is why Blade Turning fails to mitigate the Huge Grenade hits.

 

To recap, Blade Turning is the guardian passive that causes Saber Ward to grant a 100% increase in melee and ranged defense for the first 5 seconds (taking into account the War Leader 6-piece bonus).

 

On nightmare mode the attack type of Huge Grenade is melee/ranged. It follows that having Blade Turning active when the 7 Huge Grenade hit rolls take place should lead with certainty to result of Dodge, Parry, Deflect, or Resist every time. That is to say, zero damage.

 

However, that's not what happens. Perhaps the starkest example in my combat logs is this:

 

04:33.863 (00:45) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [Huge Grenade]
04:40.190 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Activated [saber Ward]
04:40.190 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [blade Turning]
04:40.191 (00:52) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [saber Ward]
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (7422 kinetic [2857 Cul'miarta: Blade Barrier]) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.973 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.974 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.974 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (10279 kinetic) <10279>
04:40.976 (00:52) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Removed Effect [Huge Grenade]

 

Every single one of the seven flurry blows hit me, despite my defense chance exceeding 100%.

 

Huge Grenade is undoubtedly MR on NiM, and I can accept that maybe the OP's StarParse is making a mistake in assigning the attack type of force/tech (as this information is inferred and not contained in the combat logs). Also, in lieu of blade turning i've been using warding call + enure, with acceptable results. The real enigma though is why blade turning does nothing to mitigate huge grenade.

 

I've also tried using Blade Blitz in the past. Here's an example of the results:

 

08:17.178 (04:54) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [Huge Grenade]
08:23.874 (05:01) Cul'miarta: Activated [blade Blitz]
08:23.874 (05:01) Cul'miarta: Applied Effect [blade Blitz]
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (5316 kinetic shield) <5316>
08:24.160 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.161 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Hit [Huge Grenade] (9973 kinetic) <9973>
08:24.163 (05:01) Titan 6 @ Cul'miarta: Removed Effect [Huge Grenade]

 

Now as we know Blade Blitz increases your defense chance by 100% for 1 second, similar to Blade Turning but of shorter duration. So the failure of Blade Blitz to prevent all damage here is equally mysterious for exactly the same reasons.

 

I can think of a few possible explanations. Perhaps what's happening is something similar to the 'snapshotting' effect seen on alacrity enhanced DoTs — I'm reminded of this thread on the subject. In this case it would be the target's defense chance at the time the Huge Grenade debuff is applied that determines the outcome of the hit rolls 7 seconds later when the debuff expires... but there are lots of debuffs in the game that don't work like that so why would this one?

 

On the other hand, perhaps the hit rolls for Huge Grenade simply ignore defense altogether? Or perhaps Huge Grenade temporarily reduces the target's defense chance? I've seen Misses (i.e. hit roll fails to meet the accuracy boundary), but never Dodges, Parries, or Deflects. The mystery remains...

 

On a side note, good to know the 30% DR from Mental Defense on shadow works I hadn't thought of that! While the OP was taking time off I often solo tanked Titan 6 NiM on shadow and it would have been quite a bit easier knowing that

 

I have a theory. But it needs testing.

Since my team is not NiM capable.... Can you guys try to mitigate it with Saber Ward (not Blade Turning), Deflection and Dodge??

Could you also provide more data about these misses you've seen? Were they after 4.0? Or during 2.0?

 

If I am right, considering Huge Grenade doesn't actually have an attack type just a Is Special tag which is not seen on tech/force, it may be Huge Grenade in NiM cannot be dodged anymore because it is neither ranged or melee. Especially considering you have proof of being hit with it through Mad Dash which is impossible.

 

Not sure on Blade Barricade, but Mad Dash actually works, so my guess would be that your timing is off.

 

Yes, you combat log states, that you activated it before the detonation, but that doesn't have to be true for the server as well. Especially when we talk about a difference of ~0.5 seconds.

 

The logs are confirmed by the server. That's why the writing is so slow, it needs confirmation from the server while being very low priority. So no, if the log shows something, it is right.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[auroroavalor]

well we tried using enure + warding call on guardian and that seemed to work best, the additional temporary health + 40% dmg reduction meant that what would normally be 7 x 9k attacks = 63-64k damage was temporarily offset by the ensure and the warding call reduces the ~63k by 40% so we only take ~25k damage which isnt too bad but it would be nice if we could still mitigate the whole thing. We will try the blade blitz tac as that would make sense.

 

I don't suppose your tanks have less than 80k HP at full health do they? The grenade itself might do a lot of damage but don't forget its heavily scripted and provides plenty of time to top the tank off as they run it away. DR cool downs are preferable here as I seem to recall a jugg friend doing some experimenting and concluding mad dash was inconsistent at best and downright useless at worst. Personally on my Sin I tend to only use an absorb adrenal to eat it, on my PT I usually have energy shield running from when I was actively tanking, I don't jugg tank NiM anymore but I cannot understand why you would need to enure and warding call, personally I would be using enure + adrenal if I was going to use anything other than enure.

 

Last question, you are tank swapping on grenades right?

[rpointon]

I don't suppose your tanks have less than 80k HP at full health do they? The grenade itself might do a lot of damage but don't forget its heavily scripted and provides plenty of time to top the tank off as they run it away. DR cool downs are preferable here as I seem to recall a jugg friend doing some experimenting and concluding mad dash was inconsistent at best and downright useless at worst. Personally on my Sin I tend to only use an absorb adrenal to eat it, on my PT I usually have energy shield running from when I was actively tanking, I don't jugg tank NiM anymore but I cannot understand why you would need to enure and warding call, personally I would be using enure + adrenal if I was going to use anything other than enure.

 

Last question, you are tank swapping on grenades right?

 

I personally have around 80.5k and my tank buddy usually has 81k on his.

 

yes we tank swap on grenade.

 

Our reason for using ensure + warding call is the CD time - if we used an adrenal then what would we use the next time we get a grenade or right at the end on burn phase ? by the time we get a second grenade warding + ensure should be ready to use again. most times we get two grenades on one tank and depending on how good our dps are - sometimes two grenades on each tank. All i am trying to do here is work out if its a bug or working as intended, i cant think its intentional that the damage isnt correctly mitigating

 

My reason for posting was not to say it was casing a major problem but in that we couldnt understand why a particular CD (blade turning) wasnt mitigating the damage like it really should. Then again, as a tank i do like to ensure i am doing all i can to help my healers so give them more time to heal others.