Player Choice (in reply to Musco)

[SFDebris]

I didn't want to hijack the thread, but this remark speaks to the heart of where my concern lies with where KOTFE failed and where KOTET seems destined to stumble as well.

 

• Player choice is an interesting topic. KOTFE in many ways had more impact for your choices than our previous stories. One of the pieces of feedback we saw is that sometimes you may make a choice, but not see the consequences until much later on (Koth!). This can definitely lessen the feeling that those choices had impact, since the choice and impact of that choice were far apart.
  

I appreciate the responses, Eric, but I think the issue isn't quite this (which is part of what worries me about KOTET). The issue is the lack of the player having a sense of control over their own destiny. In the Koth example, for instance, that was the result of a choice that had no effect - whether you choose to launch a military attack has no bearing on the war whatsoever, so it's a bait-and-switch: you think you're weakening the enemy but you're actually determining whether or not an entitled jerk storms off. The player is presented with the option "Shoot Senya Down" but you don't shoot her down, so the result is either A) nothing will come of that, or B) it will effect future interaction, which is again a bait and switch. It's not quite about actions having consequences, it's that they're not consequences, they're side effects of what should be consequences, but aren't (because they have no effect).

 

Think of it like this: if you have a cold you can take a cold pill or not. You know if you do, you might be tired and light-headed, but what you're balancing is that misery against the misery of having a cold. If you take a cold pill and all that happens is you're still just as sick AND light-headed and tired, that's a lousy cold pill. Likewise, if you're balancing the choice between a strategic military strike versus the possible loss of allies, and the only result is that you lose allies, that's a lousy "choice." You're just as screwed before, only things are even worse now.

 

This lends to the sense that players are at the helpless whim of someone else, which wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that being betrayed is a scripted plot point, and being manipulated is a scripted plot point. These are fine in isolation, but combine that with the lousy cold pill, combine it with the false choices of the story's conclusion, combine it with the many slights such as Senya, your supposed ally, throwing you around like a rag doll when she's supposed to be on your side and everyone is fine with it, and the player is left with the sense that they have no control, they are merely trapped in a role dictated to them.

 

Then, having Koth teleport onto our ship and steal it, takes that even further: you're not only not in control, the game is conspiring to yank every possible sense of victory away from you. You return to Odessen a broken failure: you were deceived, manipulated, couldn't stop the villain, couldn't stop the villain's escape, lost your most important war asset and get yelled at by Theron.

 

So the point I'm making is that it's not about choice matters, it's that this is part of a larger problem with making the player feel like their actions can, at best, do nothing, and more often, just make things worse. We're supposed to feel like a Han Solo or a Darth Vader, but we feel more like Mr. Bean In Space.

[BuckeyeWolf]

Another choice that didn't matter was whether or not to use Valkorian's power. This happens at the end of Chapter I now fast forward to Chapter XII and we see that that choice didn't matter at all as Valkorian treats everyone the same regardless.

In the end it just seems to me the whole choices matter thing was either just bait and switch or mere illusion

[josephxp]

Another choice that didn't matter was whether or not to use Valkorian's power. This happens at the end of Chapter I now fast forward to Chapter XII and we see that that choice didn't matter at all as Valkorian treats everyone the same regardless.

In the end it just seems to me the whole choices matter thing was either just bait and switch or mere illusion

 

Been saying this since ch. 13 all of the choices will have impacts on you mid way through KotET, which Mr. Musco alluded to in that post, and im sure using Valkorian's power will build up to a boiling point where Lana leaves you, because remember using it killed many people on Asylum in that lightning storm.

[ZanyaCross]

Another thing I think a lot of people are confusing/conflating is the concept of player-agency vs character-agency.

 

SFDebris went into great detail about why the player is denied a sense of agency, but this is compounded with he fact that at no point does it really feel like your character is the one steering the boat or driving the plot. Even in a game with completely linear gameplay, it's still possible to present the protagonist as the one actively participating rather than just being swept along. Being at the whim of the universe is fine in a story like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, but it's absolutely fatal in a space-adventure.

 

I was willing to overlook this a lot in the first 9 chapters, because you're freshly defrosted and on the run, reacting and evading Arcaan's forces, but even after getting to Odessen it never feels like your character, the so-called "commander" is ever the one determining the direction. Theron or Lana brings you a situation, tell you what needs to be done, and sends you off.

 

This is just bad storytelling at its base.

Edited September 14, 2016 by ZanyaCross

[SithEmpress]

I was willing to overlook this a lot in the first 9 chapters, because you're freshly defrosted and on the run, reacting and evading Arcaan's forces, but even after getting to Odessen it never feels like your character, the so-called "commander" is ever the one determining the direction. Theron or Lana brings you a situation, tell you what needs to be done, and sends you off.

 

This is just bad storytelling at its base.

^This is very true; I don't feel like I'm leading anyone. Not once in the story do I say hey let go do this. This is why I'm not as big of a fan of the Inquisitor Story as it feels like everyone just tell MC go do this and so on. The MC doesn't even come up with the plan to save everyone. You need to make the illusion that were making the decision about where our Alliance is going. They could also do better with the illusion of choice mattering.

 

A few example from the story

 

 

When we are rising the gravestone and decide to take in the refugees, they could have Koth mention that the repairs are going along a lot faster due to their help or even show a few extra npc on our ship or bases. Doesn't really change the story but does make it feel different.

 

Example two, this one irritates me as they prompt this before the expansion came out as an example of choice. When you choose to have Lana kill or spare the Knight. They could have made the choice matter by having the player who kill the Knight be hunted down and attack, while the one who spare him isn’t. A simple thing that would make thing feel a little different but instead they took the lazy road, no matter the choice you are still attack by two knights.

 

The same example can be applied if you rammed Marr ship or not. I thought for sure the trooper you saw in the escape pod (lightside choice) would be dead if you rammed the ship as he didn’t get a chance to get off. Nope he still alive, why not swap him out with another NPC, thus giving us a feeling that our choice did change things.

 

 

Yes, it just an illusion and wouldn’t change the story but it makes it so the player feels like they are changing things “even a little bit”. This tie back to the old stories, did our choice really matter, not much (Knight always defeat emperor etc) but they did a good job with the illusion that our choices mattered. Maybe our choice will matter more in the next chapter but right now the few choices we’ve had feel very force and unnatural.

Edited September 14, 2016 by SithEmpress

[ZanyaCross]

So, just played Anarchy in Paradise and Disavowed. Perfect examples of what we're talking about. Theron hears about Kaliyo, sends you to investigate, and then Kaliyo hijacks you to help with her mission. Your only real choice in the matter is whether you blow up faceless innocents and, maybe, if Koth leaves.

 

Same thing in Disavowed. Theron sends you like a messenger to recruit Jorgan, and it's Jorgan that tell you about his op that you can help with. Again, the main character isn't the one driving the plot. It's Jorgan's story, not yours. You're a secondary character in your own game. Oh yeah. and Koth is still a jerk, needlessly antagonizing Senya.

 

Worse yet, you get almost zero good lines, which is bad for any class but flat out criminal (see what I did there?) for the smuggler.

Edited September 15, 2016 by ZanyaCross

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Been saying this since ch. 13 all of the choices will have impacts on you mid way through KotET, which Mr. Musco alluded to in that post, and im sure using Valkorian's power will build up to a boiling point where Lana leaves you, because remember using it killed many people on Asylum in that lightning storm.

 

We will see, I hope so. Also, there is consequence to using his power too much

 

 

there comes a point where you can not refuse it anymore. If you choose to refuse, he buts in anyway and you see plain white text saying you can not refuse or some such.

 

[Keta]

Been saying this since ch. 13 all of the choices will have impacts on you mid way through KotET, which Mr. Musco alluded to in that post, and im sure using Valkorian's power will build up to a boiling point where Lana leaves you, because remember using it killed many people on Asylum in that lightning storm.

 

No. There are far too many contradictory and conflicting options we could have taken with our characters for all the choices in Season 1 to matter. Or even for all the significant choices to matter. My goody two shoes Jedi intentionally got rid of Koth. He also helped every refugee possible anywhere and took every light side choice possible out side of pissing off Koth. So figure out how to balance out that as we go along in the story.

 

Only some choices will matter and as others have pointed out they won't matter in other than a peripheral manner, they're all going to drive you to the exact same result at the end of Season 648, because they have to.

 

btw - my evil as sin Sith Inquisitor kept Koth. Because I wanted to see what would happen. Both characters will fry his arrogant arse given the opportunity.

[FixerFortyKay]

So, just played Anarchy in Paradise and Disavowed. Perfect examples of what we're talking about. Theron hears about Kaliyo, sends you to investigate, and then Kaliyo hijacks you to help with her mission. Your only real choice in the matter is whether you blow up faceless innocents and, maybe, if Koth leaves.

 

Same thing in Disavowed. Theron sends you like a messenger to recruit Jorgan, and it's Jorgan that tell you about his op that you can help with. Again, the main character isn't the one driving the plot. It's Jorgan's story, not yours. You're a secondary character in your own game. Oh yeah. and Koth is still a jerk, needlessly antagonizing Senya.

 

Worse yet, you get almost zero good lines, which is bad for any class but flat out criminal (see what I did there?) for the smuggler.

 

I actually did a video covering a lot of these points.

The Jorgan points at the 4 minute mark onwards.

 

It feels like you have a choice between staying on the rails as a Jedi hero, or trying to fruitlessly deviate by being an incapable 80's Saturday morning cartoon villain. If you light side Chapter 12 you get a happy Jorgan and a trained resistance force on Zakuul. If you dark side it you get an unhappy Jorgan, a bunxh of civvies with guns that are all going to die, and an undeployed spec ops team that dies in Chapter 13 immediately after. That's not ****** Renegade Commander Shepard. That's stupid evil overlord Skeletor.

 

and as you said, despite being a Commander I don't think there's any point you actually get to lead.

 

Chapter 10 - Follow Kaliyo.

Chapter 11 - Follow Jorgan

Chapter 12 - Thrown into a forest by Valkorion

Chapter 13 - Follow Gault

Chapter 14 - Follow Shae Visla

Chapter 15 - Follow Scorpio

Chapter 16 - Follow Lana

[merovejec]

Been saying this since ch. 13 all of the choices will have impacts on you mid way through KotET, which Mr. Musco alluded to in that post, and im sure using Valkorian's power will build up to a boiling point where Lana leaves you, because remember using it killed many people on Asylum in that lightning storm.

 

I actually made a thread about what choices did matter, since I always spacebar all the story. I wanted to hear if there are really people who checked this and know what changes in the story if you pick different choices. However I didnt get much replies.

 

What choices matter?

[americanaussie]

I actually made a thread about what choices did matter, since I always spacebar all the story. I wanted to hear if there are really people who checked this and know what changes in the story if you pick different choices. However I didnt get much replies.

 

What choices matter?

 

There are a few differences. I may add to the thread in the morning.

 

As for the talk with Valkorian in the forest, I'm actually surprised the following isn't an option:

 

Option 4: Lana?! Have you lost your mind? You go from telling me that you're concerned about his presence in my mind to wanting me to commune alone with him? **Note*** This should DEFINITELY be an option for anyone who chooses to use his power twice but tells him no on Asylum against Arcann. I'm actually surprised there isn't a conversation between you and Lana where you confess that you can't control Valk taking over your body any more. Man, she would freak out.

[ChadSkywalkur]

It's not quite about actions having consequences, it's that they're not consequences, they're side effects of what should be consequences, but aren't (because they have no effect).

 

Agree with you OP, especially this line. ^

 

 

There are a few differences. I may add to the thread in the morning.

 

As for the talk with Valkorian in the forest, I'm actually surprised the following isn't an option:

 

Option 4: Lana?! Have you lost your mind? You go from telling me that you're concerned about his presence in my mind to wanting me to commune alone with him? **Note*** This should DEFINITELY be an option for anyone who chooses to use his power twice but tells him no on Asylum against Arcann. I'm actually surprised there isn't a conversation between you and Lana where you confess that you can't control Valk taking over your body any more. Man, she would freak out.

 

Excellent point, couldn't have said it better myself. That is something that always bothered me.

 

Imagining that last part has me laughing so hard right now.

[Victor_Nite]

Another choice that didn't matter was whether or not to use Valkorian's power. This happens at the end of Chapter I now fast forward to Chapter XII and we see that that choice didn't matter at all as Valkorian treats everyone the same regardless.

In the end it just seems to me the whole choices matter thing was either just bait and switch or mere illusion

 

 

While I like Fallen Empire, this was a great disappointment.

[SFDebris]

Worse yet, you get almost zero good lines, which is bad for any class but flat out criminal (see what I did there?) for the smuggler.

 

Yeah, that's another part of the same overall problem, marginalizing the player. If I can spontaneously spout better lines than the PC is given, that's just unimaginative and sad.

[Gokkus]

I think this is a really good thread that goes into the heart of matters. Not a big fan of the pill analogy but the overall topic deserves more attention at this level imo.

[DeltaaXx]

So far the worst is

 

Kneeling to Valkorio or not, it doesn't have ANY effect on the story so far... you follow the same points and plots and convos even when you kneel...

 

[OldVengeance]

That does change a bit of dialogue throughout the story.

It basically works with the assumption that you are willingly partnering up with him (most of the time).

Edited September 18, 2016 by OldVengeance

[DeltaaXx]

That does change a bit of dialogue throughout the story.

It basically works with the assumption that you are willingly partnering up with him (most of the time).

 

I played through it and only a few lines were different, nothing big or drastic happened even tho you decided to side with essentially the Sith Emperor...

 

Maybe KotET will answer this

[OldVengeance]

Another thing I think a lot of people are confusing/conflating is the concept of player-agency vs character-agency.

 

SFDebris went into great detail about why the player is denied a sense of agency, but this is compounded with he fact that at no point does it really feel like your character is the one steering the boat or driving the plot. Even in a game with completely linear gameplay, it's still possible to present the protagonist as the one actively participating rather than just being swept along. Being at the whim of the universe is fine in a story like Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, but it's absolutely fatal in a space-adventure.

 

I was willing to overlook this a lot in the first 9 chapters, because you're freshly defrosted and on the run, reacting and evading Arcaan's forces, but even after getting to Odessen it never feels like your character, the so-called "commander" is ever the one determining the direction. Theron or Lana brings you a situation, tell you what needs to be done, and sends you off.

 

This is just bad storytelling at its base.

 

Is that any different from the class stories? Or any other part of the game? You've always been given directions and objectives from your superiors or your subordinates and just been sent off to do them.

[DreadtechSavant]

I find all these threads laughable. Take two of my own characters, one has lost no companions though storyline the other has lost several. (not counting old comps not returned yet)

 

So choice does matter.

 

If any of you thought choices would be different to that then I question your common sense. Also I note that while there are lots of these threads NONE yet has even given a reasonable choice that could of happened. Kill Arcan? Ok fine kill him and then BW puts up a rolling dialog saying, This is now the end of this characters storyline. In your choice matters KotET does not happen. Feel free to start a new character.

 

Any choice in game has to be done in a way BW can continue the story, BW could not write a thousand different storylines to cater for any other choice than what BW are doing now.

Edited September 18, 2016 by DreadtechSavant

[FixerFortyKay]

Is that any different from the class stories? Or any other part of the game? You've always been given directions and objectives from your superiors or your subordinates and just been sent off to do them.

 

A matter of how they're approached. You can present something as leadership from the player character or someone else.

 

All it takes is having the player character going to the table, announcing the problem and asking for suggestions. After the NPCs give suggestions you choose the way you want to resolve the situation.

 

In many of the class story later missions and most Imperial missions tend to have the NPCs serving you. Instead of ordering you on a mission they are there to support you and provide you the information/resources you need to succeed. Inquisitor chapter 3 has you recruiting Imperial Forces, getting services from aliens, gaining the alliances or Lords or killing them, making use of the Academy for your new apprentice.

 

KotFE's approach was to have NPCs announce they had a new plan or problem, one that your *** kicking skills were needed for, you'd then be the guy going into the field to recruit or provide a service. It's very much like the earlier Jedi chapters were you were following a constant set of instructions from the council, only Lana/Scoprio/Theron seem to be in charge now.

[ekwalizer]

Been saying this since ch. 13 all of the choices will have impacts on you mid way through KotET, which Mr. Musco alluded to in that post, and im sure using Valkorian's power will build up to a boiling point where Lana leaves you, because remember using it killed many people on Asylum in that lightning storm.

 

Yeah, we heard that song when they announced KotFE. Or are you saying that BW Austin has the foresight to think two expansions ahead? I have seen nothing from this studio to lend any credit to that assessment.

[SFDebris]

I've said this elsewhere before, but I'll repeat this example to show how easily it could be done.

 

The choice in chapter 10 should be a trade off where you're picking from two possible outcomes.

A) You launch the attack: Arcann is now weaker, but you risk upsetting your allies

B) You don't launch the attack: Arcann is just as strong, but your alliance is not at risk of fracturing

 

The consequence of this is that if you choose A, Koth leaves and then returns to steal the Gravestone.

If you choose B, during the final confrontation Arcann has more forces to call upon to overwhelm you, allowing Vailyn to kidnap Lana/Theron/your LI.

 

Thus the season ends on a cliffhanger, and KOTET picks up the following season with you having to either retrieve the Gravestone or rescue your kidnapped ally. The setup is that there is a station where an important enemy ship is going to be docking. If you are on path A, Koth is on the station plotting to board that ship and acquire important tactical data, with Lana as your companion. If you are on path B, the prisoner is on that ship, with Koth as your companion. In either case, you are infiltrating and fighting your way through the map (as the point forces for the boarding party), until you get to the destination which is where A turns left to enter Koth's safe house, and B turns right to board the ship.

 

If you are on path A, you overwhelm and defeat Koth's forces. You are given the choice of killing Koth or sparing him, but if you choose the second, Lana kills him herself for betraying the Alliance. You then recover the Gravestone.

 

If you are on path B, you overwhelm and defeat the guards around the prisoner. You can choose to kill Baddie X (whatever name would be for the one in charge torturing your companion), throw them in their own torture field, or knock them out. If you pick kill, Koth has to try to free the companion, succeeding but fat-fingers triggers an alarm. If you pick the other 2, Baddie X first frees the companion, and then after you leave comes to/escapes and hits the alarm. Regardless, your deaths are assured, so Koth valiantly lays down his life to allow the rest of you to escape.

 

You are now back in the same place narratively no matter which path you had originally chosen, Koth is dead and you have the Gravestone, but how you got there was by your own choosing. Were you a pragmatist who bloodied their knuckles to ensure victory, or were you intent on fighting this war on your own terms? That is what shaped how you got to where things were even if the endpoints were both the same, it satisfactorily presented the player with the illusion that they shaped the events. I say illusion because the game makers need to be magicians; like watching a magic act, it's about convincing the audience to accept what they know is a trick as the real thing. Telltale's TWD is an example of a David Copperfield in action. KOTFE is a guy on a street corner hoping you'll throw a dollar in his hat.

[annabethchase]

Is that any different from the class stories? Or any other part of the game? You've always been given directions and objectives from your superiors or your subordinates and just been sent off to do them.

 

We don't have any superiors anymore.

 

For example, the Sith Inquisitor is the rightful Emperor of the Sith Empire as of the point he is out of carbonite. He only has Darth Acina and the Sith Warrior as possible rival claimants.

 

Everyone else, we've left the Republic/Empire and basically founded our own Resistance. So basically how Leia has no superiors. It's established cannon that the Resistance is not affiliated with the New Republic as of Ep7. We are in Leia's position as the leader of that alliance/resistance.

[annabethchase]

I've said this elsewhere before, but I'll repeat this example to show how easily it could be done.

 

The choice in chapter 10 should be a trade off where you're picking from two possible outcomes.

A) You launch the attack: Arcann is now weaker, but you risk upsetting your allies

B) You don't launch the attack: Arcann is just as strong, but your alliance is not at risk of fracturing

 

The consequence of this is that if you choose A, Koth leaves and then returns to steal the Gravestone.

If you choose B, during the final confrontation Arcann has more forces to call upon to overwhelm you, allowing Vailyn to kidnap Lana/Theron/your LI.

 

Thus the season ends on a cliffhanger, and KOTET picks up the following season with you having to either retrieve the Gravestone or rescue your kidnapped ally. The setup is that there is a station where an important enemy ship is going to be docking. If you are on path A, Koth is on the station plotting to board that ship and acquire important tactical data, with Lana as your companion. If you are on path B, the prisoner is on that ship, with Koth as your companion. In either case, you are infiltrating and fighting your way through the map (as the point forces for the boarding party), until you get to the destination which is where A turns left to enter Koth's safe house, and B turns right to board the ship.

 

If you are on path A, you overwhelm and defeat Koth's forces. You are given the choice of killing Koth or sparing him, but if you choose the second, Lana kills him herself for betraying the Alliance. You then recover the Gravestone.

 

If you are on path B, you overwhelm and defeat the guards around the prisoner. You can choose to kill Baddie X (whatever name would be for the one in charge torturing your companion), throw them in their own torture field, or knock them out. If you pick kill, Koth has to try to free the companion, succeeding but fat-fingers triggers an alarm. If you pick the other 2, Baddie X first frees the companion, and then after you leave comes to/escapes and hits the alarm. Regardless, your deaths are assured, so Koth valiantly lays down his life to allow the rest of you to escape.

 

You are now back in the same place narratively no matter which path you had originally chosen, Koth is dead and you have the Gravestone, but how you got there was by your own choosing. Were you a pragmatist who bloodied their knuckles to ensure victory, or were you intent on fighting this war on your own terms? That is what shaped how you got to where things were even if the endpoints were both the same, it satisfactorily presented the player with the illusion that they shaped the events. I say illusion because the game makers need to be magicians; like watching a magic act, it's about convincing the audience to accept what they know is a trick as the real thing. Telltale's TWD is an example of a David Copperfield in action. KOTFE is a guy on a street corner hoping you'll throw a dollar in his hat.

 

This is very similar to how I see it. This would be ideal to have a small handful of items like this for key choices (Gravestone, using Valk power, etc.)

 

Or, my version of the above is I'd have whole chapters where you either get chapter 2 (steal the gravestone), chapter 3 (force quest about Valk influence) or chapter 4 (the default chapter if you don't need 2 or 3) depending on what choices you made in KotFE. Since I assume we get 9 chapters at launch of KotET, it would be ideal to me if you only got 1 of the branching chapters per playthrough. No more effort on Bioware's part as they still build 9 chapters, but we get a branching path through the story more conducive to multiple playthroughs.

 

Either of the above would be