Why SWTOR feels Lifeless

[Bawheidbob]

Fair comments made here. Having these 'massive' cities and buildings and plonking down 5/6 people randomly in and around them does seem a bit silly now you have brought it to the forefront of my mind.

[Errrkill]

If I were to make a youtube video of tor gameplay it would go like this:

 

Five mins on a speeder riding along to the annoying hummmmmmmmmmm.

 

One minute of turning in a quest and talking with an npc.

 

Five more minutes of...yup speeder again hummmmmmmmmm.

 

Thirty seconds killing a lone nerf in Alderaan.

 

Five more minutes of speeder travel hummmmmmmm.

 

At no point in time would you see other players in this video let alone fight another player.

 

The End

 

P.S. Sad but true story....

[Darth-Malice]

Wish there was a section where people could post there opinions and wall of texts on the forums rather then clutter the general discussion with them.

[JAFOBRIA]

Played wow i saw things move about. guard walked patrols. ETC ETC. I t maybe part of whats missing but theres somthing else i just cant put my fionger on. If this game turns into WOW ill prob cancel.

[Caldric]

Played wow i saw things move about. guard walked patrols. ETC ETC. I t maybe part of whats missing but theres somthing else i just cant put my fionger on. If this game turns into WOW ill prob cancel.

 

Yes I think the game is great, paying 15 bucks a month to play it is a different story. 3 warzones really? They built a galaxy but couldn't make PVP more interesting.

 

Why not a planet to PVP on with objectives. Would have been perfect and a side from all the flirting and talking.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Caldric

[ChuangTzu]

Yes, I agree with the OP because i've been constantly moving around while watching a film with friends. In fact I can't stop moving around ever!

 

 

 

Come on people do just sit around. I happy with how things are.

[Errrkill]

Why no day and night cycles? Why no weather? Why Lame AI? Why npc animations straight from swg (non-moving town npcs: their hand gestures and movement where they're standing in groups is very swg)?

 

Everywhere I go it feels like a set piece with a bunch of extras. I nearly never feel like anything significant is occuring. Adding day and night and weather makes the zones less static and then it feels like a living world.

 

Sadly it feels like a massively single player kotor to me. I try to keep playing but I just can't seem to get into it =/

[ArmchairMagpie]

To be fair some enemy NPCs do have a minimum walk and look-around animation.

 

Day and night cycle would be nice - if it is actually a real night, not some "look it's dark but I can still *see you all*!" kind of fake night. Flash lights and car lights should be mandatory at night.

 

*edit: not all planets would have a classical 24 hrs. day/night cycle though. Depending on characteristics some zones may even have a very long night, think polar circle.

Edited December 28, 2011 by ArmchairMagpie

[RachelAnne]

I dont agree.

 

I did play wow for 6 years and if you want to tell me that the npc´s there got a life and do stuff then I dont know but the word "troll" does come in mind ...

 

Fact is, the NPC´s at wow do stand at their spot and wait for you to come and pick your quest. If you return they do stand at exactly the same spot, doing nothing but waiting.

 

The guards do move sometimes yes, but this the guards at SWTOR do aswell.

 

And do you know why it is like it is? If an MMO would consist of walking NPC´s then handing in quest or picking them up would be frustrating, as you never know where to go.

 

What wow has is a nice draw distance, so that it seems like the place would have more stuff going on. If you could see over the half map at SWTOR too then you would also see more action. Right now you hardly see past 1 pack of mobs, its a shame

[Robbathehutt]

I dont agree.

 

I did play wow for 6 years and if you want to tell me that the npc´s there got a life and do stuff then I dont know but the word "troll" does come in mind ...

 

Fact is, the NPC´s at wow do stand at their spot and wait for you to come and pick your quest. If you return they do stand at exactly the same spot, doing nothing but waiting.

 

The guards do move sometimes yes, but this the guards at SWTOR do aswell.

 

And do you know why it is like it is? If an MMO would consist of walking NPC´s then handing in quest or picking them up would be frustrating, as you never know where to go.

 

What wow has is a nice draw distance, so that it seems like the place would have more stuff going on. If you could see over the half map at SWTOR too then you would also see more action. Right now you hardly see past 1 pack of mobs, its a shame

 

I don't think you read the entire post. I said the quests givers and vendors don't move in WoW or DCUO, I'm talking about all the other NPCS that stand around like statues in SWTOR almost as if they are simply part of the background as opposed to actual inhabitants of this world.

 

And let me be completely frank so it can no longer be misconstrued

 

This is not just about friendly NPCs this is about ENEMIES too

 

Enemies do not just stand around around in WoW or DCUO they patrol they move around they have at least a specific route they move around in. Enemies in SWTOR sit in groups of 4 or 5 and are like statues until you either attack them or get too close. If you walked around the Barrens in WoW and saw all the Raptors just frozen in place you would think the game was broke. If you were going down the streets of Metropolis in DCUO and all the enemies were just frozen still and cars weren't moving and pedestrians weren't walking they just were frozen still you would think the game was broken. This is what SWTOR is missing it feels lifeless because the NPCs friendly or unfriendly have no life to them they are cardboard cutouts that just fade into the background.

 

I like the game I am enjoying it but giving NPCs movement would help make the world more believable as a living breathing world. Having that ONE patrol guy that wanders around inspecting all the groups of statues is not making things seem more alive....

Edited December 28, 2011 by Robbathehutt

[Enako]

First off before I explain my opinion on why I feel (and many others feel) that the worlds of SWTOR feel lifeless and dead I want to say a few things up front.

 

bring supporting statistics for this proposition of 'many others'.

 

i dont see anyone feeling that in my 80 man guild, which has played games including swg, aoc, wow altogether.

 

this game appears more live than stormwind on a saturday night.

 

.............

 

im waiting on the 'statistics' and references about that 'many others feel'.

[SaltAU]

OP, what you describe should be obvious to even a below average game designer. Not sure what is going on at BioWare but my opinion of them has dropped dramatically after playing this game.

[Kumando]

First off before I explain my opinion on why I feel (and many others feel) that the worlds of SWTOR feel lifeless and dead I want to say a few things up front.

 

1. I like SWTOR I am playing SWTOR and I'm enjoying the game. I'm currently a level 26 Jedi Sage and I feel it is a a good game. Is it the best game ever no....but it is a good game and worth playing.

 

2. I have played many other MMOs including World of Warcraft from 2005 to 2010, City of Heroes, Champions Online, and DC Universe Online.

 

So now that I have that out of the way the reason why I believe SWTOR feels lifeless and dead is not because of the lack of players or sharding/instancing of the planets I've seen plenty of other players when I play and I've had no problem putting groups together for Heroic quests. Why it feels dead to me is because of the NPCs.

 

Let me explain, the NPCs in other MMOs like WoW & DCUO don't just stand in one spot moving only their arms or hands from time to time. This goes for the enemy NPCS as well. In WoW and DUCO enemies walk around sometimes run some seem like their on a journey of their own even the giraffes in WoW move around. In SWTOR the enemies just sit in groups of 4 or 5 standing in 1 spot occasionally moving their arms like their all huddled around playing a dice game or something. Sure there are patrols or "pats" in SWTOR but they are few and far between like 1 enemy NPC might walk in between the groups of frozen NPCs that do nothing until you attack them or get to close.

 

This doesn't give the impression of life or a living breathing world, it gives the impression that everything is frozen in place until you interact with it. Like the world has been "Paused" until you either attack it or get to close. It's no different with friendly NPCs, guards just stand there, random NPCs just stand frozen in place, and customers at the cantinas for the most part simply do their small animations over and over. You never see anyone walking anywhere. Have you ever seen a single NPCs casually walk around a cantina? They react like robot stuffed animals at Chuck-E-Cheese they may move their arm or hand or turn their head but it looks so....lifeless.

 

I don't remember much about City of Heroes of Champions Online but in WoW & DCUO the NPCs both friendly and enemies are always on the move. Guards patrol the cities, random NPCS walk around from place to place, cars drive down the street, Pedestrians run away from enemies, enemies walk and run around, the police chase after the bad guys, etc. etc. For the most part the only NPCs that just stand there and do nothing in WoW or DCUO are quest givers and vendors.

 

This is not the case with SWTOR and gives the game a feeling of being dead not because it's a bad game and not because it's not fun and not because there aren't other players around it's because the NPCs & the enemies are stagnant. I leveled several alts in WoW and the world never felt lifeless even though there were hardly ever any other players around. It still felt like a living breathing world that would continue on whether I passed thru or not, SWTOR feels like it's just waiting for me to come along to actually do anything.

 

For those of you that have played Skyrim try to imagine playing that game going to Whiterun and finding all the NPCs just standing around not moving, not talking to you, not talking to each other just frozen until you interact with them. You would probably think the game was broken.

 

I'm not sure why Bioware made the NPCS this way (friendly & Enemies) but it takes away from the game IMO and makes it feel dead. I'm still enjoying the story though and I have no problem playing a game the way it is but if they could improve the NPC animations and actually make them do things it would be great.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I have to agree with you BW should give a look on this, constructive posts like this are welcome, not the garbage that other brats are always posting.

[Enako]

OP, what you describe should be obvious to even a below average game designer. Not sure what is going on at BioWare but my opinion of them has dropped dramatically after playing this game.

 

im earning my living as a developer for the last decade. i have also studied some game design.

 

and i still dont see any statistics supporting that 'many people' argument. please forward us one.

[Mr_Jonse]

One of the few critical posts on General I've agreed with so far! Really good point. One thing I like are the ongoing battles like between the NPC Jedi and Flesh Raiders on Tython etc, really make the game seem like something is happening beyond what youre doing. More like this would be awesome!

[Enako]

One of the few critical posts on General I've agreed with so far! Really good point. One thing I like are the ongoing battles like between the NPC Jedi and Flesh Raiders on Tython etc, really make the game seem like something is happening beyond what youre doing. More like this would be awesome!

 

that seems more unrealistic than anything else - you go around a lot, and then come back, only to see the same people fighting in the same places, and a battle has not ended for days, maybe weeks.

 

totally surreal.

[Grammarye]

A well written post. It would be lovely to increase the ambience of the worlds with more movement & interactions occurring. A little less 'the world revolves around the player' and a little more 'the player is in this world'.

 

Some ideas:

 

Tabula Rasa for all its flaws had some great base defense mechanics, where a given outpost (with friendly NPCs and even remarkably some mission givers/hand-ins!) would come under attack from NPCs. If players didn't lend a hand, the outpost would likely be lost, the friendly NPCs replaced with hostile NPCs, and players have to re-take the outpost - rewards were given either for participating in defense or for the re-taking. This was extended in places where taking & holding four key outposts at a time unlocked a major dungeon entrance. Lots of potential around that concept I feel.

 

There are no patrolling guards on roads anywhere. This is surprising in some places like Dromund Kaas.

 

I realise it is no small investment, but every single walker vehicle being entirely static really drains life. Just once I'd like to see them moving. Ord Mantell is a classic for this; we see ships flying over, gun emplacements firing, but not a walker moving anywhere. This leads me onto another related idea. Patrols need not be simply on roads, nor defense necessarily on bases. How about a long static patrol route for a walker & protecting infantry, complete with hostile rocket launching NPCs on the route, and hey presto you get a long slow moving clearing & respawning of hostile NPCs that eventually causes the walker & infantry to get killed. The player can choose to help out, and perhaps be rewarded if the walker reaches base.

 

There is a big continuum available between 'here, have a mission' as we have now, and 'here, bunch of stuff happening that you can choose to interact with' where you can blend the two and discover missions that you didn't know were there.

[archifikoss]

that seems more unrealistic than anything else - you go around a lot, and then come back, only to see the same people fighting in the same places, and a battle has not ended for days, maybe weeks.

 

totally surreal.

 

But impossible to do otherwise with the specific game design - or without phasing the entire area, which could lead to more problems. Guild Wars 2 will be different in that way... But we've yet to see how well it will work in the context of an MMORPG.

[Enako]

But impossible to do otherwise with the specific game design - or without phasing the entire area, which could lead to more problems. Guild Wars 2 will be different in that way... But we've yet to see how well it will work in the context of an MMORPG.

 

nay.

 

you can do it with considering what would happen in a given zone in normal circumstances :

 

consider coruscant. does it seem lifeless ? not at all. there are a lot of npcs doing stuff around. some trading, some talking, sightseers in senate square, some other stuff going on somewhere else.

 

it looks more real than any other mmo i played.

 

the reason is, whenever you come to such a place like coruscant, the people - if it was real - would be doing those same things.

 

so its simple to beef up liveliness.

 

but, if you go about implementing a 'coruscant under attack' scheme circa level 10, and then when the player comes back to coruscant at level 20 after long journeys, and coruscant is STILL under attack, it looks surreal.

 

lotro is doing that very good with 'game state' stuff. which wow also has incorporated with wrath of the lich king.

 

it works real great for stuff that should change over time.

 

for anything else, just doing the environment as it should appear in its normal state would do the trick.

[DarthAgonny]

Very interesting.

 

 

I beleive there is an undeniable truth here. Both guys who said were lvl 50 feel like there is noone while people who are questing admit they find tons of people.

 

Well i gotta tell you there is a simple explanation. In wow most people dont do quests they just grind or craft or stay in cities cause of the ah or arenas or bgs.

 

Those things in tor are not necesarily in cities i.e crew skills. GTM or warzones (accesable from anywhrre) so most people dont crowd themselves in citiea cause everything is not centered there.

 

 

Plus at this stage people dont hang around,they do quest all day in diff instanced planets. In WoW noone do quest anymore they just grind and thats exhausting so they hang around in cities to relax wich doesnt happen in swtor.

 

Tl;dr quests in swtor are amazing people do not hang in cities they just do quests all day all over the planets. In wow quest suck so people stay in cities.

 

Wrote this on a samsung galaxy s1.

 

this again.

[pmaura]

you know what aliked was the drunk topless girls and dromond kass, I think it was there playing in the fountain while people oggled them.

 

Not sure why peole think npcs walking very predicatable patterns adds life.

[Robbathehutt]

One of the few critical posts on General I've agreed with so far! Really good point. One thing I like are the ongoing battles like between the NPC Jedi and Flesh Raiders on Tython etc, really make the game seem like something is happening beyond what youre doing. More like this would be awesome!

 

You know I actually forgot about this. They did something similar on Coruscant as well with different factions having a big fire fight with each other. I agree these were both cool things and more stuff like this would be great! Maybe there is alot more stuff like this in the game I've only made it to Nar Shadda so far so....I'll find out eventually.

[Nekronus]

I do think simple NPC patrols would add a nice extra touch. It added quite a lot to Star Trek Online having a lot of clusters of NPC's roaming the corridors.

 

I mean the NPC's are going to follow a predictable path one way of the other, we have droids in this game, have mouse droids shooting around the floor, security droids slowly pacing in a loop.

 

I enjoy the movement, even to watch the Star Destroyers go past the window in the fleet station.

[archifikoss]

nay.

 

you can do it with considering what would happen in a given zone in normal circumstances :

 

consider coruscant. does it seem lifeless ? not at all. there are a lot of npcs doing stuff around. some trading, some talking, sightseers in senate square, some other stuff going on somewhere else.

 

it looks more real than any other mmo i played.

 

the reason is, whenever you come to such a place like coruscant, the people - if it was real - would be doing those same things.

 

so its simple to beef up liveliness.

 

but, if you go about implementing a 'coruscant under attack' scheme circa level 10, and then when the player comes back to coruscant at level 20 after long journeys, and coruscant is STILL under attack, it looks surreal.

 

lotro is doing that very good with 'game state' stuff. which wow also has incorporated with wrath of the lich king.

 

it works real great for stuff that should change over time.

 

for anything else, just doing the environment as it should appear in its normal state would do the trick.

 

Hey, I'm all for more "immersive" stuff! But the problem with phasing when it's too heavily implemented in an open world is that it drastically takes away from the continuity between players. "Where are you?" "In the Jedi Temple, it's being invaded by Daleks" "No dude, it's Romulans!" "what are you guys talking about? There's a hippy Wookiee garage sale going on, everything's peachy!" Unless you phase the players in the area as well. Maybe it could be done with certain zones successfully.

 

Still... The thread is more about the feeling of liveliness and interactivity within the game world, to which as I said I agree with OP. It's not bad - but you feel like you can't really do anything in the world apart from fight, click on certain NPCs and certain nodes, and change the song on the jukebox... Granted there are many more serious issues that need fixing, but I hope Bioware will "spice up" the game world to feel more lively at some point. Again, it's not hampering my enjoyment but such a thing would only augment it!

[Enako]

Still... The thread is more about the feeling of liveliness and interactivity within the game world, to which as I said I agree with OP. It's not bad - but you feel like you can't really do anything in the world apart from fight, click on certain NPCs and certain nodes, and change the song on the jukebox... Granted there are many more serious issues that need fixing, but I hope Bioware will "spice up" the game world to feel more lively at some point. Again, it's not hampering my enjoyment but such a thing would only augment it!

 

however what you speak of requires something other than just livening up the zones and making them look realistic.

 

what you speak of, require a game world that has sandbox elements - like swg ; people engaging in activities of trading, business, gathering, manufacturing, even politics ( mayoral elections in swg cities), city planning, this that ....

 

these do not fit with the wow format bioware has - probably forced by lucas party - duplicated.

 

for those to happen, the format of the game needs to become more hybrid than wow.