LONG:The Valkorion / Vitiate dilemma-related questions (no post-ch 9 spoilers please)

[PlagaNerezza]

*shrug* Thought I read that somewhere. Maybe it was just somebody speculating.

 

 

Well, I don't think Revan's actions need to make perfect sense. He was clearly driven insane by the emperor and became obsessed to the point of lunacy.

 

 

Lol, I agree it sounds like a load of nonsense on the surface. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the KOTFE story is terrible as a whole, myself, but I would agree that Valkorion's role is confusing.

 

I still find it very very odd the wording that Valkorion uses in the prelude:

 

PC: The sith emperor... your presence is unmistakable.

 

Valk: Oh, I think a mistake has been made... but by whom?

 

Marr: Your constant silence across our history... this was your distraction?

 

Valk: This was my focus. Everything else... a means to an end.

 

-----

 

Valk: You say you know me--if that is true, then you know the depths of my power. Whatever you hoped to achieve here, you know--deep inside--that you cannot succeed.

 

 

The curious part is that I don't think there's a single line in the prelude where Valkorion outright says, "Yes, you're right, I'm the sith emperor, Vitiate." It's only heavily implied and we buy into it because it's what we're expecting, not to mention the comments of his presence being familiar / the same.

 

And yet, I don't think Valkorion says a single word that only Vitiate could say until after the prelude, when he's in your head. And once he's in your head, he could theoretically have read your mind and pieced together who Vititate is to you, so that he can pretend to go along with the "I'm Vititate" shtick.

 

If you watch the throne room scene with the belief that he's not Vitiate, it looks like a powerful and manipulative sith lord using what people say to him to bend them in the direction he wants them to go. The closest he comes to indicating he knows who you are is saying, "In all my centuries, you alone have merited my full attention. You leave your mark upon the galaxy wherever you act, just as I do." But think about it, if you take away (once again) the expectation, he's tossing some pretty generic stuff your way. We buy into it because Vitiate said something similar on Ziost about attention. But he could just as easily be sensing the power in you (with no prior knowledge of who you are) and seeing an opportunity, much like how Palpatine saw potential in Anakin.

 

I'm inclined to think that their "out" for making the story simple is essentially to reveal that Valkorion was never Vitiate in the first place.

 

There's still a lot it doesn't explain on the surface. For instance, they would need to explain whether Valkorion is actually beyond death in any way, or if maybe he's simply tied to you (and pretends to leave at certain points). Or maybe he's a dark side force ghost and has no expectation of coming back in any capacity, but wants someone competent to rule his empire.

 

They would also need to explain what actually happened to Vitiate after Ziost... if he's still out there or what.

 

Good response. I'm inclined to your view of the whole plot of Valkorian being not the same and messing with us to an extent. Except the codex entries above especially around the wealth of Zakuul almost explicitly state they are the same "being" whatever that means. Which throws even my point below sort of out the window, but its my only rationale around the lines of being duped into believing Valkorian and Vitiate are the same. Even though they explicitly state the are in some of the codex.

 

About the only explanation that makes any sense at this point is a twin of Vitiate. In the keeping of star wars usage of twin siblings and force users throughout the EU and original story. Or a clone of some sort. A familiar presense with insane power. Some rationale is overdue on some of these plot points.

[IanArgent]

My thoughts have been that Valk is "spawn" of Vitiate created as a "backup policy" somehow. That they were in psychic communication, but Valk "evolved" into a separate personality, as it were. And when Vitiate fled to Wild Space to exercise his "backup plan," Valk "ate" Vit.

[Rolodome]

Good response. I'm inclined to your view of the whole plot of Valkorian being not the same and messing with us to an extent. Except the codex entries above especially around the wealth of Zakuul almost explicitly state they are the same "being" whatever that means. Which throws even my point below sort of out the window, but its my only rationale around the lines of being duped into believing Valkorian and Vitiate are the same. Even though they explicitly state the are in some of the codex.

 

About the only explanation that makes any sense at this point is a twin of Vitiate. In the keeping of star wars usage of twin siblings and force users throughout the EU and original story. Or a clone of some sort. A familiar presense with insane power. Some rationale is overdue on some of these plot points.

Good points. Do you know if there's any precedent for them retconning the codex, or contradicting it? I hadn't thought about it in my analysis, but it does occur to me that most players probably don't even read codex entries, so if all they did is contradict something in one or two vague entries, it may not be a big deal. They could even make up some lore reason, like those codex were written by satele and marr, who mistakenly thought vitiate and valk were the same entity.

 

I can see twin as being a strong possibility. In fact, in thinking about that idea, there's one of those star wars "poetic" things about it that could fit really well with the KOTFE story... Arcann and Thexan, twins; Valkorion and Vitiate, twins. And maybe Valkorion and Vitiate were raised in the same way that Arcann and Thexan were; never shown fatherly love and eventually parting ways, maybe violently. It'd probably involve a little retconning to go that far, but it's all legends anyway and I don't think Vitiate's backstory is explicitly laid out in any game (maybe some is in that Revan novel? the star wars wiki has backstory on Vitiate, but I'm not sure from where).

 

Clone could make sense as well, though tbh, it isn't as interesting to me as the possibility of a twin.

 

My thoughts have been that Valk is "spawn" of Vitiate created as a "backup policy" somehow. That they were in psychic communication, but Valk "evolved" into a separate personality, as it were. And when Vitiate fled to Wild Space to exercise his "backup plan," Valk "ate" Vit.

That's an interesting thought. Would fit with the clone idea, I think.

[Celise]

The part I've never quite understood is the timeline of the kids. Obviously they are not that old, so they must have been born only a couple decades prior to their rampage across the galaxy. Which would mean there was a lot of empire-ruling time in which Valkorion didn't have Senya in his life as a lover.

 

I looked up the timeline on TOR Community and according to it, the peace treaty was signed roughly 16 years prior to the KOTFE prelude. I remember something about Revan being in Vitiate's mind and getting him to push for the treaty (dunno if that's true or not). But it could be Revan's presence also pushed Vitiate to find love and he did, in one of his bodies, Valkorion. So shortly before the treaty is when he got together with Senya and she got pregnant with the twins. If the twins were born around when the peace treaty was signed, that would make them roughly 16 when they do their galactic rampage, which isn't impossible to believe, given how they were raised and trained for battle. Interestingly, it would also make Arcann and Vaylin's immaturity more understandable, since they'd be about 21 and 20, if Vaylin was born a year after the twins.

 

It would also make sense with Valkorion being distant as a father, considering that all of that CotE and Cold War stuff was raging on in the core worlds.

 

I always got the sense that the twins were in their early 20's when one betrayed the other and by the time of FE, Arcann was in his late 20's, but while Vaylin is younger, she looks a lot older than Arcann, that horrible outfit she wears doesn't help her cause either, she looks like shes in her mid to late 30's truth be told.

 

It's possible Revan may have shown Vitiate how to fall in love or see the lightside from another point of view, but he may have already learned that centuries earlier, where the sith were his darkside, the eternal empire could of been his light side, at least up to the point Arcann corrupted it for his own ends.

 

It's also entirely possible Vitiate could of made plans in advance for the possiblity of a treaty to delay should the need arise for a purpose of his own rather than influence from Revan.

[PlagaNerezza]

I always got the sense that the twins were in their early 20's when one betrayed the other and by the time of FE, Arcann was in his late 20's, but while Vaylin is younger, she looks a lot older than Arcann, that horrible outfit she wears doesn't help her cause either, she looks like shes in her mid to late 30's truth be told.

 

It's possible Revan may have shown Vitiate how to fall in love or see the lightside from another point of view, but he may have already learned that centuries earlier, where the sith were his darkside, the eternal empire could of been his light side, at least up to the point Arcann corrupted it for his own ends.

 

It's also entirely possible Vitiate could of made plans in advance for the possiblity of a treaty to delay should the need arise for a purpose of his own rather than influence from Revan.

 

The problem with the Revan plot device is that if he learned to love that was prior to him as Vitiate being a massive toolbox even the Sith wanted gone. When Vitiate returns he is hell bent to destroy all life for a Sith Ritual to grant him this great power. He is a monster on Ziost. The whole plot device of "love" is astronomically weird.

 

His idea of love with his children is really messed up. He's pitting his kids against each other for his affection and attention. His actions caused the death of one of his sons and the horrible disfigurement of another. His daughter is a murderous loon with no impulse controls. His loving skills are not very strong. I don't buy the loving angle much as its not very integrated into the whole story. It's the least fitting chapter with what they did to Satele Shan in that same chapter being a terrible move. Idealist don't give up. She's the type of character that typically dies for the idea and cause.

 

This would be like Luke finding Yoda in the woods after watching the temple burn seeing dead younglings and being beaten by the Emperor and forced to dwell in a swamp being introduced and going to Luke,

 

Yea, don't be a jedi. Use the dark side if you need to and kill Vader and the Emperor. They are jerks. Its what they did to Satele's character there that is the most disturbing writing. It's basics of being a writer that you understand the characters. She's the central glue of the Jedi Order who saved it after the Sith invasion. To have her abandon her order and philosophy and tell the last Knight of substance to abandon the ways of the jedi?

 

I was like are you kidding? Keep the theories coming though as I like reading um.

[FlavivsAetivs]

I've been reading through this and wanted to make a few points:

 

1. Revan himself says he's the one who persuaded the Emperor to make the peace treaty. He was not yet totally insane when he states that, but was getting there so that may or may not be true.

 

2. The Great Galactic War started ~25 years before the peace treaty which was signed 16 years before the game. Game starts in 3643/3642. Hutt Cartel is 3641. Revan is 3640. IIRC. That makes KotFE 3635.

 

3. Revan and Vitiate battled for roughly 310 years. Theoretically Revan could have changed him (he claims he did, at least). Someone mentioned Sel Makor trapping part of Vitiate's mind - that's probably just a plot hole, but they could do something with that.

 

4. Revan is not entirely out of the equation. Satele's Dissappearance Codex entry heavily implies she was talking to a Spirit who was NOT MARR on Yavin IV. The Guss Tuno mission implies Revan will not be helping us directly but his spirit might.

 

However, this might also be another plothole - because the Codex implies she was talking to someone before coming to Odessen, yet she states herself she met Marr on Odessen. Still, the Guss Tuno mission implies Revan may yet make an appearance.

 

Yes, the instant I started Chapter 1 I was like "what the heck? None of this new storyline makes any sense. There's no way Valkorion is Vitiate." Even the voice actor is different when in all the storylines when Vitiate controls any body it's the same guy.

 

But yeah, the whole SWTOR story is so ridiculously overcomplex and confusing. I like some of it - the novels like Deceived and Annihilation are good, so are some of the class stories and stuff. Revan is meh, at best, it doesn't even focus on him really and was rushed and mediocre. But the whole KotFE thing fits right in with why Disney got rid of the EU - inconsistencies with views of the force and force ghosts. They didn't get rid of it because of plot consistency, etc (that was an issue thanks to Filoni's clone wars messing up the original timeline), but because every other author seemed to come up with some crazy crap about the force that contradicted 20 other things a dozen other authors had come up with.

 

Like someone else said. A good villain can be described in at most a few sentences

 

Vader was a man who was recruited too late by the Jedi and was twisted by his fear of loss due to his attachments.

 

Palpatine was the most powerful sith who had ever lived, who sought to finally achieve what the others couldn't: the annihilation of the Jedi order and the establishment of a Galactic Empire. He did this through manipulation, rather than blatant show of force.

 

Bane was a man who saw how the Sith Order had become weak, as too much power was shared and when the Sith did fight for control it tore their Empire apart. He reformed the Sith by killing them all and establishing a rule of two, so there would always be one apprentice to grow more powerful than the master and replace them.

 

Revan was a man who fell to the dark side in war and made a Darth by the Emperor, but was redeemed under a new identity and reconciled his old and his new self. He was tortured for three hundred years which tore his mind in half, and was unable to wholly die until both halves could be reconciled. (This one is obviously already too convoluted because Revan is an anti-hero whose story got royally messed up in this game).

 

Kylo Ren is... an emo teen with a lightsaber and daddy issues.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited September 19, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[IanArgent]

Vitiate is a Force Entity obsessed with obtaining immortality at the price of omnicide. He seeks revenge on the PC for trying to thwart his most recent step along this path

 

Valkorian is an aspect of Vitiate who seeks to understand and create emotional attachments, and continually fails and abandons his failures. The PC is his latest project. His children were attempts to create connections from others to him.

 

Simplicity of concept is necessary but not sufficient to drive a good story.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Vitiate worked, at least. Him being able to possess people and seeking to eat the galaxy are pretty simple concepts.

 

Valkorion... if they make him separate from Vitiate it would work, but right now he makes no sense.

 

When I finished Ziost I expected the next expansion to be focused on Vitiate starting to eat worlds, building power, and you had to stop him. The way Ziost ended that's just what I expected, with both the Republic and the Sith campaigning across the Galaxy chasing him, trying to control the crisis (while Saresh obviously being, well, Saresh).

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited September 19, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[IanArgent]

Vitiate worked, at least. Him being able to possess people and seeking to eat the galaxy are pretty simple concepts.

 

Valkorion... if they make him separate from Vitiate it would work, but right now he makes no sense.

 

When I finished Ziost I expected the next expansion to be focused on Vitiate starting to eat worlds, building power, and you had to stop him. The way Ziost ended that's just what I expected, with both the Republic and the Sith campaigning across the Galaxy chasing him, trying to control the crisis (while Saresh obviously being, well, Saresh).

 

~ Eudoxia

 

It is my deep desire (currently highly unrequited) that Valkorian turns out to be a separate entity from Vitiate-of-Ziost.

[DarthScruffy]

My guess is that they'll choose to give "rules" around the end of KOTET/beginning of 6.0. The way they chose to end KOTFE means that they'll spend the early part of 5.0 dealing with fallout.

[Dmasterman]

I personally believe Volk is trying to use the player, as he did his Voice or his false bodies.. but that's just me

[Kaprua]

Someone mentioned Sel Makor trapping part of Vitiate's mind - that's probably just a plot hole, but they could do something with that.

 

The reason I brought it up is that Sel Makor is a vital part of both the Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight on Voss, not to mention the Voss planetary story arc's finale revolves around him and the Nightmare Lands. When the Jedi Knight ecounters Sel Makor and he describes his power, it is literally everything we have seen Vitiate do. Plus the Voss Mystic calls him "Will with out a body" Valkorian talks a lot about the will to be greater and more.

 

I do believe something is going on between both Sel Makor and Vitiate, I have no idea how Valkorian or Zakuul fits into this but after the finale on Yavin and then the Ziost story all I could think about was the earlier interaction with Sel Makor on Voss and how similar the two are. Valkorian feels worlds away from both Vitiate and Sel Makor, but there is something off about everything he says. And remember he apparently killed the old gods of Zakuul as their demon savior, that sounds familiar...

[MayhemofChaonus]

Personally, I choose to believe that Vitiate consuming Ziost changed his personality. In a "you are what you eat" kinda way. That's why we're dealing with this pussified version of the original Omnicidal Maniac Vitiate, because he ate something that "disagreed" with him and now has a little more flowers and sunshine to him. Remember that he "ate" 8000 of the most depraved, Dark-Side adhering, almost fanatical Sith Lords on Nathema (During the Golden Age of the Sith, there were absolutely NO Light-Side Sith, as the entire society into which all Sith were born had zero exposure to the Jedi and the Light Side. The Sith of that time were likely unaware of the existence of the Light Side, believing the Dark Side to simply be the Force), there were nowhere near that many on Ziost when it was devoured, and some of those Sith may have had significant light-side leanings. The whole thing is basically BW's cop-out to the build-up they've been giving Vitiate over the course of the game. Instead of giving us an epic story with awesome, believable, and likable characters on a quest to defeat a mad god intent on killing everyone and destroying everything...they gave us a lame, poorly-written, poorly-executed, uninteresting, irritating, shameful excuse for a story expansion.

 

I was genuinely excited for KotFE. I thought BW's "return to story" would be just what a people-hating RPG-lover like myself wanted. Then I was completely and utterly disappointed. I'm a prequels fan, but I now understand how the prequel haters felt when they watched those movies for the first time. KotFE is someone else's Star Wars, because it's definitely not mine. If you want to see a taste of what kind of class stories BW could have and should have written after vanilla, read my fanfic, hyperlink is the purple phrase in the description! #shamelessselfpromotion

[PlagaNerezza]

Personally, I choose to believe that Vitiate consuming Ziost changed his personality. In a "you are what you eat" kinda way. That's why we're dealing with this pussified version of the original Omnicidal Maniac Vitiate, because he ate something that "disagreed" with him and now has a little more flowers and sunshine to him. Remember that he "ate" 8000 of the most depraved, Dark-Side adhering, almost fanatical Sith Lords on Nathema (During the Golden Age of the Sith, there were absolutely NO Light-Side Sith, as the entire society into which all Sith were born had zero exposure to the Jedi and the Light Side. The Sith of that time were likely unaware of the existence of the Light Side, believing the Dark Side to simply be the Force), there were nowhere near that many on Ziost when it was devoured, and some of those Sith may have had significant light-side leanings. The whole thing is basically BW's cop-out to the build-up they've been giving Vitiate over the course of the game. Instead of giving us an epic story with awesome, believable, and likable characters on a quest to defeat a mad god intent on killing everyone and destroying everything...they gave us a lame, poorly-written, poorly-executed, uninteresting, irritating, shameful excuse for a story expansion.

 

I was genuinely excited for KotFE. I thought BW's "return to story" would be just what a people-hating RPG-lover like myself wanted. Then I was completely and utterly disappointed. I'm a prequels fan, but I now understand how the prequel haters felt when they watched those movies for the first time. KotFE is someone else's Star Wars, because it's definitely not mine. If you want to see a taste of what kind of class stories BW could have and should have written after vanilla, read my fanfic, hyperlink is the purple phrase in the description! #shamelessselfpromotion

 

I understand what your premise is, but doesn't hold up as the codex and timelines for the childern. Valkorian's force philosophy according to the codex morphed prior to the Sith Invasion. The knights of zakuul and the entire century old society that Valkorian led are ancient and different than Vitiate's sith teachings and philosophy governing there force users.

 

With the only consistent view is that Vitiate/Valkorian is above all. Emperor of the societies. Each society is structured with vastly different approaches to people and governing. Valkorian, Satele Shan and Marr lecture us about using the force differently.

 

Yet we are expected to put aside that Vitiate was trying to consume all life on Yavin and Ziost to resurrect himself and that the Vitiate we meet earlier who articulates his grand plan to consume all life in the galaxy is also Valkorian.

 

It doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. As to the rest of your points I agree. This story isn't much of a star wars classical story. It is barely star wars. It almost is a slap in the face to the original game. The Jedi and Sith conflict. Pft. Over. They got beat up by these "knights" of super amazing better force skills who are loyal to Valkorian, whose really the Sith Emperor and now is a little bit good because he found love and uses the force all better than you.

 

Its not the new focus that is the issue with KOTFE. Its the writers. No matter how good they execute the cut scenes and acting the story is terrible. Its not vetted enough and doesn't have that iconic star wars good vs. evil soap opera style. Its got this entire emo aspect to it introduced to characters.

 

Its gotten away from the theme of redemption and overcoming evil. Very powerful themes deep in star wars. Its gotten away from corruption of the good. Very powerful theme.

 

Its scrapping internal conflict as a motivation to characters. Frankly, it also breaks with some serious social norms we accept. The concepts of good will eventually triumph over evil. You've got some writers who are not really authors working this story driven game. I think the developers should focus efforts on hiring more writers and focusing on writing if they are drifting away from content focus.

 

The guy who can write an interesting flashpoint or operation is not necessarily equipped as a writer to develop major story. This is likely the cause as each chapter feels like a disjointed effort. They don't feel like interwoven story long drawn out and story boarded and vetted. With people sensitive to Star Wars at the table providing guidance and feedback that traditionally would follow a Lucas product.

[IanArgent]

I understand what your premise is, but doesn't hold up as the codex and timelines for the childern. Valkorian's force philosophy according to the codex morphed prior to the Sith Invasion. The knights of zakuul and the entire century old society that Valkorian led are ancient and different than Vitiate's sith teachings and philosophy governing there force users.

 

With the only consistent view is that Vitiate/Valkorian is above all. Emperor of the societies. Each society is structured with vastly different approaches to people and governing. Valkorian, Satele Shan and Marr lecture us about using the force differently.

 

Yet we are expected to put aside that Vitiate was trying to consume all life on Yavin and Ziost to resurrect himself and that the Vitiate we meet earlier who articulates his grand plan to consume all life in the galaxy is also Valkorian.

 

It doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. As to the rest of your points I agree. This story isn't much of a star wars classical story. It is barely star wars. It almost is a slap in the face to the original game. The Jedi and Sith conflict. Pft. Over. They got beat up by these "knights" of super amazing better force skills who are loyal to Valkorian, whose really the Sith Emperor and now is a little bit good because he found love and uses the force all better than you.

 

Its not the new focus that is the issue with KOTFE. Its the writers. No matter how good they execute the cut scenes and acting the story is terrible. Its not vetted enough and doesn't have that iconic star wars good vs. evil soap opera style. Its got this entire emo aspect to it introduced to characters.

 

Its gotten away from the theme of redemption and overcoming evil. Very powerful themes deep in star wars. Its gotten away from corruption of the good. Very powerful theme.

 

Its scrapping internal conflict as a motivation to characters. Frankly, it also breaks with some serious social norms we accept. The concepts of good will eventually triumph over evil. You've got some writers who are not really authors working this story driven game. I think the developers should focus efforts on hiring more writers and focusing on writing if they are drifting away from content focus.

 

The guy who can write an interesting flashpoint or operation is not necessarily equipped as a writer to develop major story. This is likely the cause as each chapter feels like a disjointed effort. They don't feel like interwoven story long drawn out and story boarded and vetted. With people sensitive to Star Wars at the table providing guidance and feedback that traditionally would follow a Lucas product.

 

I think you're judging a story on its first act and the climax of a different story; without knowing all the players or what they've done.

 

Not that elements of the story are good, mind you. Bash all you like on the superiority of the Knights' approach to the Force, or even the superiority of the Eternal Fleet. I'd have liked to have seen the Republic and Empire, the Jedi and Sith, beat each other senseless and bloody, being equal and opposite, and then have the Eternal Empire and Fleet sweep in and oppress the shattered ruins of two hubristicly-proud star empires; outsiders able to defeat the remnants of their armies, but unable to conquer the dreams of their citizens.

[Kaprua]

It's also possible we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet to understand who or what Vitiate and Valkorian are entirely. All we know is that for the longest time Vitiate/Tenebrae was a sith, who devoured all life on Nethema, and then took over the Sith Empire, and was the recluse Emperor that no one but his Hands, Children, and Voice ever interacted with. Till we interact with a disembodied voice on Yavin and Ziost. And every thing we know about Vitiate is from interactions with those parts of him, which Valkorian says in Chapter 2 "Our Flesh is not who we are" as he then lists all the things we interacted with that was supposed to be him/Vitiate. There is so much dialogue and text in both the story and codex that suggest that things are not what they seem, that we might not be properly seeing what is going on in regards to Valkorian/Vitiate. Like we are seeing what we want to see, but not actually understanding what is in front of us, much like Darth Marr suggests about not seeing the Emperor properly till it was too late.

 

I personally love the KotFE story for how it challenges our player characters with this dilemma of question who they are and what they believe. My main that I have played with since launch is a Jedi Sage, that has never once choosen a dark side option. Until this expansion.

 

I create little backstories for each character to kind of flesh out their personality and have the story impact that personality, and I made him very loyal to the codes of the Jedi, and in particular the Jedi Order even more so than the Republic, and everything that happens 1-50 story arc, all of it, didn't make him question his ideals or the Jedi Order, and even so into the whole Hutt Cartel and Dread Master story arcs.

 

But starting a little bit with Shadow of Revan, I think he saw how the Order was not always perfect and had many of his peers, and friends who would easily leave it for a cause they saw more worthy, in Revan. And then seeing the destruction on Ziost and realizing how powerless he and his ideals really are.

 

Then KotFE starts and his world is turned upside down, along with the rest of the galaxy, and he no longer has the Jedi Order as he knows it for help. And he refused Valkorian's power the first few times, but with his constant talking in his head, and him trying to appear human and reasonable, the minute Arcann kills you know who, and starts calling my character, "father" repeatedly, and says he "can't wait to meet all my friends" my poor sage, couldn't take it and accepted to use V's power. That was in my opinion one of the most crazy and memorable moments in the story, and one where it felt very engaging to be apart of. Until then my Sage had never faced the "no win scenario" before Ziost. And then to be confronted with another no-win scenario, with someone offering save the situation and all he had to do to win was just let him have his way for a little bit. It felt like everything in the character's story was leading to that point, and in a moment of weakness he choose poorly.

 

There seems to be an overarching theme of destiny and identity in this expansion. Trying to escape fate or be more than destiny, while also question ourselves and those we know. So when Valkorian says "a mistake has been made but by whom" is what we should be asking ourselves.

[Rolodome]

which Valkorian says in Chapter 2 "Our Flesh is not who we are" as he then lists all the things we interacted with that was supposed to be him/Vitiate.

Maybe the ending will be like one of those sitcom parodies, where we wake up screaming in bed and Valkorion is there as this plain, old man. And we're all like, "I had this terrible dream."

 

Kinda like the Wizard of Oz, lol.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Maybe the ending will be like one of those sitcom parodies, where we wake up screaming in bed and Valkorion is there as this plain, old man. And we're all like, "I had this terrible dream."

 

Kinda like the Wizard of Oz, lol.

 

*Revan wakes up*

 

Bastila: "What is it dear?"

 

Revan: "I had this terrible dream where my life was destroyed by terrible writing after a mediocre book and disjointed storyline in an MMO. Then the Sith Emperor I've been trying to kill all my life suddenly was some sort of manipulative ghost that didn't want to eat the galaxy anymore and wasn't even a Sith anymore, and the main character who defeated me was running around dealing with his kids' daddy issues for the next two years. Then it was all made Non-Canon so nothing even exised and none of it ever happened."

 

Bastila: "This is why I drink."

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited September 22, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[PlagaNerezza]

Till we interact with a disembodied voice on Yavin and Ziost. .

 

This isn't true. Especially if you are the Jedi Knight and the story KOTFE is based upon. The Knight story which basically I assume is cannon for this new story goes like this.

 

 

The Knight and Kira go aboard, destroy the weapon, and face Angral. Before the fight, Kira becomes possessed by the Emperor, thanks to her training as a Child of the Emperor, before running away. The Emperor commands Angral to kill the Jedi and Kira is able to fight off the Emperor's control. After Angral is defeated, the Emperor takes control of Kira again, and the Knight has to fight her. After the Emperor is defeated, he threatens to kill the Jedi, even at the expense of Kira's life. Kira, however, fights his control again, and this time perminently breaks his control of her. The two return to Tython, and Kira is promoted to Jedi Knight, and the two Jedi are told to prepare for challenges in the future.

 

While on his space ship, the late Master Orgus Din speaks to the Jedi Knight, telling him that he must stop the Emperor and take the ship and head to Tatooine, to find a crashed starship. They reach the ship and find a Jedi, Jomar Chul. Jomar speaks to his master, Tol Braga, informing him of his status, and Jomar gives the Knight the sensor logs to deliver to the Council. The Knight reaches Tython and delivers the sensor logs, and he meets Tol Braga in person, who states he is creating a secret strike team, and asks the Knight to join them to capture the Emperor. The first step is to locate an Imperial fortress hidden by a cloaking device where the Emperor resides and they need to find it. He sends the Knight to Balmorra to meet with another Jedi who is investigating a way to pierce the cloacking around the Emperor's fortress.

 

The Jedi Knight, along with Braga, Warren, and Leeha arrive at the fortress, with hardly any opposition upon arrival. The Jedi Knight arrives at the throne room, where the Emperor and Scourge are waiting for him. The Knight duels Scourge and defeats the Sith and the other three Jedi arrive at the throne room. The Jedi try to detain the Emperor, but they are all no match for his power and are subdued by him. Time passes and the Jedi Knight has fallen under the Emperor's control, being trained under the watch of Scourge. The Knight has another vision of Orgus, who tells the Jedi Knight to fight the Emperor's control. Orgus tells him to keep his freedom to himself and escape the fortress and his "dark ally" will help. A Sith Overseer arrives and asks the Jedi to help interrogate Kira, but instead, the Knight frees Kira. They two Jedi arrive at the hanger, to find Scourge has already freed the Knight's companions. Scourge tells the Jedi he had a vision centuaries ago of the Knight defeating the Emperor and wants to save the Galaxy from total destruction. He joins the Jedi and they fly to Tython.

 

Finale

 

The Jedi Knight and his team arrive on Dromund Kaas. Scourge located the Emperor's where abouts and they hijack a shuttle to infiltrate the temple. The Jedi Knight confronts the Emperor in the temple's throne room. The duel ends with the Emperor's death and the temple collapses.

 

[Rolodome]

*Revan wakes up*

 

Bastila: "What is it dear?"

 

Revan: "I had this terrible dream where my life was destroyed by terrible writing after a mediocre book and disjointed storyline in an MMO. Then the Sith Emperor I've been trying to kill all my life suddenly was some sort of manipulative ghost that didn't want to eat the galaxy anymore and wasn't even a Sith anymore, and the main character who defeated me was running around dealing with his kids' daddy issues for the next two years. Then it was all made Non-Canon so nothing even exised and none of it ever happened."

 

Bastila: "This is why I drink."

 

~ Eudoxia

Lol.

[BlazeTomahawk]

If we're lucky we'll wake up and find out Revan was all a dream. God what an overblown character

[Rolodome]

If we're lucky we'll wake up and find out Revan was all a dream. God what an overblown character

KOTOR 1 and 2 era Revan was an amazing character, but they took it too far with the rest of it, IMO. The whole thing with him and the emperor is silly to me, in part because they stuffed it into a book, which, from reading the reviews, isn't exactly a Revan story in the first place.

 

The fundamental problem is that Revan was always going to be a character that people had very personal views about and so he should have remained a legend, where he would stay intact as the character that people saw him as. Either that, or they should have made another game with him in it; a legit KOTOR 3.

 

I think the whole sith emperor idea was overdone from the offset (SWTOR vanilla) and it was a hamfisted way to do a callback to the style of the original trilogy, with rebels against a seemingly immortal emperor. Part of the issue with his character from the very beginning is that his backstory is next to nonexistent; he is basically just evil incarnate. You can read wookiepedia to read his backstory, but there's nothing clear about him within the story of the game.

 

And the thing about the OT is that it had Vader to balance out Palpatine. Palpatine was a similar character to Vitiate; little to no character development, evil incarnate. But it was compelling because Vader was his weak link. Vader was the thing that tied him to mortality and humanity. And when Luke defeated Palpatine, it wasn't because he was really strong in the force, or because he had the right friends, or because he planned it with a council of Jedi, or any other complicated, superhero-style ending. He defeated Palpatine by acting like a true Jedi; being an example of sacrifice and serenity in the face of death, resulting in the redeeming, sacrificial moment of his father, Vader.

 

I think they have tried to define Vitiate's character to address this problem, first through Ziost and then later through Valkorion (assuming Valkorion is truly Vitiate). But now they've got a Too Many Cooks kind of thing going on with both good guys and villains, and the story is needlessly complicated.

 

The OT was Luke, Han, and Leia against Vader and the Emperor. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy was Luke, Han, and Leia against Thrawn and Pellaeon (more or less, I don't remember the details of the Thrawn Trilogy well).

 

Heck, even Shadows of Revan more or less followed this simplicity and clarity.

 

Then KOTFE is You, Lana, Koth, Theron, Senya, and.. Valkorion?? against Arcann, Vaylin, Scorpio, and Valkorion again I guess?? And it only gets more complicated from there. Lana seems to trust no one but you. Koth only trusts you if you do exactly as he wants, but definitely doesn't trust Senya regardless. Theron seems to trust you, but still isn't comfortable with most anyone else. Senya pretends to get along to a point, but probably doesn't even trust you, much less any of your other allies. Valkorion doesn't trust a turtle to have a shell and is everyone and no one's ally. Arcann doesn't trust anyone. Vaylin seems to want to trust her brother, but doesn't. Scorpio couldn't care less about anyone but herself and her goals, trust or otherwise.

 

It's maddening chaos. Compare that to a simple band of allies who are pushed together by fate and become best buds. Or a duo of villains, whose allegiance to one another is unquestioning and straightforward, but gets disrupted by the unexpected realization of a once-hidden son and daughter.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying every story needs to follow the same formula. But there's a difference between telling a complex story, and telling a story that is complex yet doesn't even have a complex message or meaning. Unless the meaning is supposed to be "the world is too much, argh blargh, head asplode." If that is the intention, then bravo.

[FlavivsAetivs]

The OT was Luke, Han, and Leia against Vader and the Emperor. Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy was Luke, Han, and Leia against Thrawn and Pellaeon (more or less, I don't remember the details of the Thrawn Trilogy well).

 

You also had Talon Karrde and Mara Jade as intermediate characters that go back and forth between sides. But it was versus Thrawn and Joruus C'Baoth. Pellaeon was learning from Thrawn.

 

~ Eudoxia

[myrdinn]

You also had Talon Karrde and Mara Jade as intermediate characters that go back and forth between sides. But it was versus Thrawn and Joruus C'Baoth. Pellaeon was learning from Thrawn.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Oh, and Mara was mind-controlled by the Emperor's last command/thought pulse, who had set her on "Kill Skywalker."

Luckily for Luke (and, much later, Ben), Luuke showed up...

Edited September 24, 2016 by myrdinn

[myrdinn]

Thinking through, and... yes. Valkorion IS Vitiate.

 

But, you need to remember where Arcann failed, from the very first chapter onward with KoTFE. Specifically, remember the dream sequence... Valky and Vit are the same entity.

 

Oh, Oppenheimer; Shiva was a rank amateur compared to the Outlander.