Why I'm glad KOTFE dedicated time to the antagonist's perspective.

[CloudCastle]

To answer your question, yes. BioWare's other games show plenty of scenes without the protagonist. Obviously, the player character is still in most of them.

 

That's interesting. I'd be curious to know how many non-protogonist scenes there are in these other games compared to KOTFE. BW really does seem to be pushing hard to regain to KOTOR single RPG crowd. I would just like them to still remain true to certain norms the base game established.

 

It's impossible for me not to notice the difference in how much agency my char had in past stories vs now. The fact that KOTFE offered "fake" choices that players could choose - only to have that choice completely disregarded moments later - shows that players have fewer options to influence the story than we did in the past. This may be the first time I have ever seen the dialog wheel (as a game mechanic) "lie" to to speak. I also have a problem with the vastly diminished number of dialog wheels that show up in KOTFE compared to the other stories. I don't even get to choose what my character says half the time anymore. The cut scenes just go on without any input from me.

 

Baras is a terrible example as he is the only major antagonist out of all the classes who actually was also your mentor. Zash was only the villain until Chapter 1 concluded. So yes, of course he was developed because you were always around him. The entire point of not revealing he was the main bad guy was for that plot twist of the betrayal, which was blatantly obvious anyway. I'm not sure why you think the Imperial Agent was so well-done when you even make it abundantly clear you don't know who the antagonist is.

 

Did you mean to say "sith warrior" where you typed "imperial agent?" Or are you saying that Baras isn't the antagonist of the SW story? It's ok if that scene didn't work for you, but I still think it's an acceptable example of how the story can develop a villain's character while still remaining true to keeping the player's perspective intact.

 

I really have no idea who the main villain was in the agent story and frankly I don't care. That's how poorly these class stories handled most of their villains. Being "brainwashed" where the things you were contemplating were different from what you were saying was a dialogue gimmick that didn't personally impress me. It showed the writer was trying too hard and the story was taking itself far too seriously.

 

I thought that was one of the more brilliant moments in the story. What better way to show me how powerless I am than to actually hijack my dialog wheel choice? Telling me would have been way less effective than showing me was.

 

What I think many want is to have absolute control and I find that unrealistic and not in the spirit of what BioWare has done in the past.

 

I'd be thrilled to just get the same amount of choice and class flavor that the base game had. BW has proven they can do it, so it's not like we are asking for the moon. It's only one story now, not eight, or even two, so they have plenty of room to make that one story great.

[Costello]

It can be very bad for the story.

 

The writers allow the player to know things that his character doesn't, so it can lead to annoyance over some of the choices made in the game. Take an example lets say the writers in one of the antagonist cut scenes showed that the Gemini droids looked a lot like Scorpio. Then the player has to play through a chapter so his character can receive the big reveal that the Gemini droids and Scorpio are some how linked. So you have to play through the content to get the character up to the same point that the player is at. If you are going down that route let the player and the character find out at the same time.

 

But that aside it can get even worse, if those cut scenes do nothing but bore the player or if its an attempt to create some deeper understanding of the bad guys if it instead portrays them as one note jokes. Imagine having cut scene after cut scene of a guy sat on a throne going 'Outlander!' and his sister going 'I hate mommy' or 'you look sad'. Rather than establish them as complex people they come off as children that have in-explicitly gained control of the most subservient world and managed to conquer the galaxy. With the cut scenes only enforcing the view that they have no redeeming features and outside of parental issues maybe no features at all.

 

I can't think of any point in any cutscene that gave the impression Arcann or Vaylin would end up in the situation they did at the end of chapter 16.

[Thoronmir]

When it comes to MMO narrative, I find first-person too restrictive. But it depends on a player's approach. Having "grown up" with role-playing in table-top games since the late 70s, I believe I have an acute awareness of the distinction between Player Knowledge and Character Knowledge. But I also realize other players prefer that the story remain in first-person mode to enhance their immersion ... not wanting to know anything their characters don't know.

 

Occasional flashes of the opposition (I won't call them the antagonists because I believe the Outlander is the antagonist in this story) can help set context for events. But even I am not fond of cut-aways to "big reveals" in my character's absence. If Qyzen is going to betray me, don't show me a cutscene in which Qyzen meets with Darth Ebil and agrees to betray me ... let me learn it when he actually does the dirty deed.

 

Therein lies the compromise that must be struck: Show us enough "extracurricular" activity to let the plot make sense, but don't reveal any surprises. As long as the narrative achieves that balance, I'm having fun.

 

Long ago, I ran a RP plot for my WoW Guild. Along with the Guild's RP investigation, I posted a few clues at our Guild website by means of "cutscenes" of my NPCs ... but never revealed any true secrets. Once the plot ended, all key secrets were revealed, the villain was overcome, and revels were had, I went back and posted a series of "behind-the-scenes" vignettes to fill in the other half of the story from its beginning. The players appreciated the peek behind the bad guy's curtain. But, again, they only got that peek after the plot was complete.

[TUXs]

Really? People complained about THAT? I too liked it...I wish the cut-scenes were fewer because I enjoy playing my character more, not because of how they worked in Arcaan and Vaylin. Chapter 16 was, imo, one of the best ways to involve the character in what would have otherwise been a cut-scene fight.

[CloudCastle]

Having a great villain and using the antagonist's perspective are not inexorably linked. You can have one without the other. There are multiple ways to develop character, not just one. Some of the greatest antagonists in history have never been shown from their perspective.

 

KotFE's use of Arcann & Vaylin's perspective failed to advance the plot or develop their characters in any meaningful way (and they were given a lot of time to do so!). The story would have been better served if their characters were illuminated by interacting with the protagonist and through their actions.

 

I agree with this. There is so much information that we were simply "told" through blind cut scenes when the same information could have been conveyed in a way that allowed our characters to participate. Thing is, we don't even need to be meeting face to face with Arcann or Vaylin to accomplish this! Does my character even know that Arcann doomed half his knights to killing each other off in death matches? Why not let me find out myself by actually meeting a disgruntled knight who was forced to kill his/her partner? (Or meet an escapee, or have one of them be in the EC, or whatever.)

 

Now we have Scorpio and Vaylin working together, but my character doesn't know that either. The "big reveal" was given to us, the players, so now when our characters find out the emotional impact of this discovery is gone.

 

I just can't help but feel like many scenes would have had greater impact if my character had been involved.

[DarthSpuds]

I am not going to hunt down every instance of someone making this exact claim just to appease you. Either do it yourself or don't believe me. I don't really care. The fact there are already posters in here who already made this claim and you didn't even bother to read the OP or the thread shows how silly you look and how pointless this discussion with you is.

 

You don't have to find them all.

 

You just have to find ONE.

 

And you couldn't even manage that.

 

All The Best

[Aowin]

You don't have to find them all.

 

You just have to find ONE.

 

And you couldn't even manage that.

 

All The Best

 

What's funny is the answer to your question is literally on the previous couple of pages. If you aren't even troubling yourself to read it, I'm not going to point it out for you. Have fun.

[gabigool]

One of the most recurring criticisms I see of KOTFE is the fact the cutscenes aren't always exclusively dedicated to the player character. In particular, a lot of players have criticized BioWare for showing Arcann and Vaylin too much, comparing it to a "television series." I find this odd and even somewhat confusing. The reason being is any good story will generally give multiple perspectives to broaden the world and give it complexity. If the only perspective we ever have is our own, it makes the storytelling incredibly one-dimensional and not nearly as compelling.

 

Most of BioWare's games have developed the antagonist largely through his/her own personal cutscenes. We see this in KOTOR 1 with Darth Malak. We saw this plenty of times in Mass Effect with Saren, The Illusive Man, the Collectors, and even the Reapers. We saw this in Dragon Age with Loghain. We've seen it in Jade Empire. Considering many hold these games in such high esteem, yet commit the same offense that KOTFE does, I'm not sure exactly why KOTFE suffers from this decision.

 

It's also a long-established tradition in Star Wars, itself, to show the villain and what he/she is up to. Whether it's Darth Vader, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, General Grievous, and now Kylo Ren and Supreme Leader Snoke, the motivations of the other side are incredibly important for developing the story. If we never had any concept or understanding for what the villains were up to, how could we ever truly understand them or enjoy them in the film?

 

If Darth Vader was not shown as much as he was in A New Hope, I doubt many today would ever consider him arguably the greatest villain of all time. One of my major criticisms of the class stories is you do not really get the perspective of the antagonist in any of them, which is why all of the villains are forgettable. The class story is solely focused around the player character, making it one-dimensional and at times boring. I only remember the Sith Emperor for the JK story, and that had more to do with reading the Revan book (where time is dedicated to describing his character in detail) rather than SWTOR.

 

I loved getting to know Arcann and Vaylin more and hopefully this is something BioWare will continue to do as I believe it's incredibly important from a storytelling perspective.

 

By your logic any story that is told from a single perspective less "compelling" than had it been done otherwise. That's obviously ridiculous.

 

Reality is this - you are misunderstanding most of the complaints. People are not annoyed at having to watch Vaylin/Arcann because of some deep desire to avoid the "antagonist PoV".

 

They're annoyed because they are shallow, trite, uninteresting characters, and people are bored watching them.

Edited August 23, 2016 by gabigool

[Aowin]

...

 

To be quite honest, it would probably be easier if you just played some of those other games yourself. You can get Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic I and II on Steam (KOTOR II was developed by Obsidian and not BioWare). You can get the Mass Effect trilogy, all three Dragon Age games, and Jade Empire on Origin. All of BioWare's games are great and have choice-driven story where your choices shape the game. I recommend all of them as I own all of them. Even YouTube might be a possibility if you just look for scenes that deal with the antagonists. Again, the only major distinction between SWTOR and most of BioWare's other games seems to be the lack of an antagonist perspective.

 

You just highlighted an example of the dialogue wheel for the imperial agent blatantly lying to you and you were commending that as excellent storytelling. I agree BioWare probably shouldn't have given players the impression they could kill Arcann, but did you really believe you'd kill him anyway? All Heskal foretold is that Arcann would be removed from the throne and defeated. He never actually said what would ultimately be Arcann's fate. It's still too early to know. We may still have a chance to kill him eventually. However, it was way too early in the story to kill an obviously important character.

 

"Auto dialogue" as some love to call it was an alleged issue in ME3. The reason BioWare largely does this is to keep the plot moving and maintain a steady pace for the story. Generally, what the character is saying in these brief periods we don't have control is trivial and doesn't usually matter. It's also a way for BioWare to save money and invest it in other parts of the story. It's a cost-benefit analysis. It may seem bad in isolation, but that largely depends on what is being improved because of it.

 

No. I was referring to the Imperial Agent story when referencing a lack of an antagonist. Baras is obviously the antagonist of the Sith Warrior story. My point is it is never clear (even really in the end) who the antagonist for the Imperial Agent is. This organization that has existed for a millennia is never thoroughly explained and its motivations aren't entirely clear for it to truly be relevant and compelling. It is just an unknown threat that the agent thwarts. Of course, you don't even really know of this group's existence until the end. Much of the imperial agent story is dedicated to irrelevant storytelling that ultimately has no impact on how the story ends. That's a waste of resources in my opinion.

 

A lot of folks praise the agent story for all the betrayals and the plot twists. I wasn't impressed. The writer tried too hard to make a clever and interesting story. It just got bogged down in predictable tropes and being unpredictable for the sake of unpredictability. That's amateurish writing at best and fan fiction at worst. Especially when your main male "rival" that tried to kill you for the latter part of the game turned out to be a woman who was in love with you, assuming you are a male agent. I just cracked up laughing. That was so random and bizarre I just don't even have words to fathom how that made it into the story.

 

I'm with you there. In theory, BioWare is more than capable of doing one fantastic story rather than having to worry about eight individual stories. I want just as much player agency and great interactions as you do. I just believe BioWare needs to be cautious and not throw features out just because it wasn't executed well in KOTFE. Hopefully we can get more variety in classes going forward as well. I expect we'll see most of that recruiting old class companions.

[Aowin]

...

 

I don't want the antagonist's perspective to spoil anything. Quite the contrary. Anything that we do learn is contextual and relevant to what is happening at the time. Take KOTOR 1 as an example when we first see Darth Malak heading towards Taris. He orders Saul Karath to bombard Taris to dust with the Sith Fleet. This was a necessary show of force to give us insight into Darth Malak's character and the lengths he's willing to go to just to claim one, fleeing Jedi.

 

Or we can look towards Mass Effect where Saren executes Nihlus early on. This is the first time we are introduced to Saren and realize that he was initially an ally at some point, but something far more sinister is transpiring. We can look to Loghain in Dragon Age: Origins where he decides to disobey a direct order from King Cailan, leading to the young king being killed by Dark Spawn while Loghain retreats. We then gain insight into Loghain later learning he believed engaging the Dark Spawn at the time was foolhardy and that Ferelden should focus its efforts uniting under an experienced and well-respected military general.

 

I could go on and on, but the point is that these scenes dedicated to these antagonists were integral in many of these stories to learn about the villain and move the plot forward. It wouldn't have sense for the protagonist to encounter the antagonist at this point for a variety of reasons, so this is an effective and simple way to build other characters the protagonist doesn't currently know.

 

We, as the player, aren't learning information that puts our characters at a disadvantage. We are gaining a larger understanding of the main players in the story to better appreciate what is happening and why we are doing what we are doing. I certainly don't want to know everything while my character knows nothing. It's a balancing act of revealing what needs to be said, but not giving away too much.

[DarthSpuds]

What's funny is the answer to your question is literally on the previous couple of pages. If you aren't even troubling yourself to read it, I'm not going to point it out for you. Have fun.

 

I've read every post, more than once.

 

There are some stating less emphasis on Arcann and Vaylin might be better.

There are some stating a bit more focus on the Player Character would be welcome.

 

But there still hasn't been a single person asking for ALL cutscences to be focused EXCLUSIVELY on the Player-Character.

 

All The Best

[MACharlieV]

I agree with this. There is so much information that we were simply "told" through blind cut scenes when the same information could have been conveyed in a way that allowed our characters to participate. Thing is, we don't even need to be meeting face to face with Arcann or Vaylin to accomplish this! Does my character even know that Arcann doomed half his knights to killing each other off in death matches? Why not let me find out myself by actually meeting a disgruntled knight who was forced to kill his/her partner? (Or meet an escapee, or have one of them be in the EC, or whatever.)

 

Now we have Scorpio and Vaylin working together, but my character doesn't know that either. The "big reveal" was given to us, the players, so now when our characters find out the emotional impact of this discovery is gone.

 

I just can't help but feel like many scenes would have had greater impact if my character had been involved.

Actually the player does know on some level because of the email sent regarding Vaylins coronation as Empress. But that's an entirely different issue all together then seeing the villains perspective.

 

That being said, I agree that there didn't need to be as many scenes because we already understood what was happening and who they were. How many times are we going to be told by Vaylin that she killed x number of knights for failing her? We get it. She's a sociopath.

[Aowin]

Actually the player does know on some level because of the email sent regarding Vaylins coronation as Empress. But that's an entirely different issue all together then seeing the villains perspective.

 

That being said, I agree that there didn't need to be as many scenes because we already understood what was happening and who they were. How many times are we going to be told by Vaylin that she killed x number of knights for failing her? We get it. She's a sociopath.

 

I still believe the issue more than anything else was a clear disconnect from Chapter I-IX to Chapter X-XVI. The first nine chapters were much more succinct. The last seven struggled due to filler, inconsistent pacing, and really just a weaker overall story progression.

 

I don't really know why there was such a shift in the quality between the first bundle of chapters released versus the once a month chapters. But clearly, there was a breakdown in development somewhere during the creation process for the story. I think BioWare needs to rectify those shortcomings and then it will be less likely we'd see any situations of pointless cutscenes with villains reinforcing what we already know.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Aowin

[Damask_Rose]

No. I was referring to the Imperial Agent story when referencing a lack of an antagonist. Baras is obviously the antagonist of the Sith Warrior story. My point is it is never clear (even really in the end) who the antagonist for the Imperial Agent is. This organization that has existed for a millennia is never thoroughly explained and its motivations aren't entirely clear for it to truly be relevant and compelling. It is just an unknown threat that the agent thwarts. Of course, you don't even really know of this group's existence until the end. Much of the imperial agent story is dedicated to irrelevant storytelling that ultimately has no impact on how the story ends. That's a waste of resources in my opinion.

 

 

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hunter was the primary antagonist, and a creepy good one at that. I also thought the Star Cabal's motivations were quite clearly explained. In my opinion, a powerful secret society manipulating the Empire and Republic in order to destroy the Sith and Jedi made for a much more interesting threat than the all powerful, unknowable Emperor of the Knight's story.

 

[Rolodome]

I still believe the issue more than anything else was a clear disconnect from Chapter I-IX to Chapter X-XVI. The first nine chapters were much more succinct. The last seven struggled due to filler, inconsistent pacing, and really just a weaker overall story progression.

 

I don't really know why there was such a shift in the quality between the first bundle of chapters released versus the once a month chapters. But clearly, there was a breakdown in development somewhere during the creation process for the story. I think BioWare needs to rectify those shortcomings and then it will be less likely we'd see any situations of pointless cutscenes with villains reinforcing what we already know.

Could have been a breakdown, but my guess is it was more just to do with time. Trying to push things out on a month to month schedule. It's hard enough to shape up a story on a tight schedule, when it's just a written story that you read. Couple that with making it into an interactive narrative in a game. Plus, when you're pushing things out by chapter, you can only plan ahead so far. You can't really go back and revise if something later on screws up your story.

 

It's just a really challenging way to tell a story, in general.

[Aowin]

...

 

As always, reasonable minds may differ. I didn't find the agent story that compelling and I found the idea of this "secret society" to be silly and ridiculous. Considering the Sith Emperor has been manipulating events in the galaxy for a millennia, it's very unlikely any unknown organization would have had any true influence or capacity to destroy anything.

 

Disregarding the questionable premise the agent story tried to cement itself upon, you can't truly appreciate the Sith Emperor unless you play KOTOR 1, KOTOR 2, and more specifically the Revan book. What you will find is the Sith Emperor has been manipulating the Galactic Republic for centuries. He has created many galactic wars from behind the scenes and even used the Jedi (Revan and Malak) as a means to try and destroy the Republic. I'd highly recommend also looking at the timeline videos BioWare made for SWTOR on this website pre-launch by the Jedi Historian, Master Ghost-Dural. He meticulously goes through all of the major events in the galaxy and how the Sith Emperor was linked to all of them.

 

Sadly, you cannot gain this context from just playing the Jedi Knight story alone. However, when you do have all this prior knowledge and actually understand the impact the Sith Emperor has had on the entire Old Republic era, you will recognize why he is so important, you will understand his motivations, and you will see why he is by far the best antagonist out of all of the class stories.

[Aowin]

...

 

I don't doubt it. More reason for BioWare to plan ahead and try to approach storytelling different when they transition to a monthly chapter model. That was clearly the weak point for KOTFE and it's something they can't afford to repeat with KOTET. Consistency and pacing needs to remain the same throughout and people need to remain engaged with what they are consuming.