Choices do matter

[Audoucet]

Im curious. how did people feel about content that didn't have any choices that effected the story? For example the prelude to shadow of revan?

 

In my opinion, that's some of the best content in the game. Structurally, it's incredibly balanced for both group and single player. The story portion is awesome. And even though it has no choice that matters.

 

It has no choices, period. And the fact is, no choices is better than fake choices.

[SFDebris]

Let me try to explain why I feel the event of Chapter 10 wasn't really a case of choices mattering.

 

It's election day, you're in the polling booth, about to cast your ballot*:

If you vote for William Bingbong-ala-ding-dong, William wins.

If you vote for Terrence Kibblesandbitsandbitsandbits, William still wins. Also, a boxing glove comes out and punches you in the groin.

 

On the one hand, sure, your choice mattered, but in any meaningful sense, it clearly did not. Saying you got to choose to be punched in the groin is rather disingenuous because A) you didn't come there to choose whether or not to be punched in the groin, and B) the thing that you come there to choose was completely unaffected by whatever you chose.

 

Your choice in Chapter 10 was whether or not you were willing to launch a terrorist assault in the hopes of hindering Arcann's war machine. However, that decision had no impact, Arcann's ability to wage war is not affected in the least by what you did. Instead, what you choose influences whether or not someone disapproves of your choice and in the end will punish you for it. So: both have the same status quo-maintaining result, but one then punishes you for choosing "wrong."

 

A true case of choices mattering would be:

A) You hamper Arcann's military might, but you fracture your Alliance

B) You don't damage Arcann's war machine, but you leave your Alliance intact

 

This is then easily seen in the final chapter as:

A choice) Koth steals the Gravestone (because you fractured your Alliance)

B choice) Vailyn kidnaps Theron/Lana/your romantic interest/whatever (because Arcann had enough force to overwhelm your defenses)

 

Thus with a season ending cliffhanger no matter which you chose, resolved in the first chapter of season 2 which in either case is the same mission: infiltrate a station where at the end you either are told to turn right (to board the docked ship where your imprisoned friend is held) or told to turn left (to get into the room Koth's using to plan his assault on the parked ship). If you turn Left, Koth is killed by you (or if you refuse, by Lana as punishment for his betrayal) and you're free to reclaim the Gravestone. If you turn right, you rescue your companion, but Koth (your mission companion) dies heroically to save you all. And now, both stories are in precisely the same place again for season 2 to continue, your team is whole again minus Koth and you have the Gravestone, but how you got there was through your own decisions meaning something and with little additional work needed. The destination is the same, but you chose how it was that you got there.

 

What we have instead is that everything is the same except you got punched in the groin.

 

* Note to Bioware: these are not the names of real people or meant to represent real people. They are made up names devoid of political representation and solely included to show the fact that elections are a thing which exists and chosen because they are an environment in which choice exists and is expected to matter.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Let me try to explain why I feel the event of Chapter 10 wasn't really a case of choices mattering.

 

It's election day, you're in the polling booth, about to cast your ballot*:

If you vote for William Bingbong-ala-ding-dong, William wins.

If you vote for Terrence Kibblesandbitsandbitsandbits, William still wins. Also, a boxing glove comes out and punches you in the groin.

 

On the one hand, sure, your choice mattered, but in any meaningful sense, it clearly did not. Saying you got to choose to be punched in the groin is rather disingenuous because A) you didn't come there to choose whether or not to be punched in the groin, and B) the thing that you come there to choose was completely unaffected by whatever you chose.

 

Your choice in Chapter 10 was whether or not you were willing to launch a terrorist assault in the hopes of hindering Arcann's war machine. However, that decision had no impact, Arcann's ability to wage war is not affected in the least by what you did. Instead, what you choose influences whether or not someone disapproves of your choice and in the end will punish you for it. So: both have the same status quo-maintaining result, but one then punishes you for choosing "wrong."

 

A true case of choices mattering would be:

A) You hamper Arcann's military might, but you fracture your Alliance

B) You don't damage Arcann's war machine, but you leave your Alliance intact

 

This is then easily seen in the final chapter as:

A choice) Koth steals the Gravestone (because you fractured your Alliance)

B choice) Vailyn kidnaps Theron/Lana/your romantic interest/whatever (because Arcann had enough force to overwhelm your defenses)

 

Thus with a season ending cliffhanger no matter which you chose, resolved in the first chapter of season 2 which in either case is the same mission: infiltrate a station where at the end you either are told to turn right (to board the docked ship where your imprisoned friend is held) or told to turn left (to get into the room Koth's using to plan his assault on the parked ship). If you turn Left, Koth is killed by you (or if you refuse, by Lana as punishment for his betrayal) and you're free to reclaim the Gravestone. If you turn right, you rescue your companion, but Koth (your mission companion) dies heroically to save you all. And now, both stories are in precisely the same place again for season 2 to continue, your team is whole again minus Koth and you have the Gravestone, but how you got there was through your own decisions meaning something and with little additional work needed. The destination is the same, but you chose how it was that you got there.

 

What we have instead is that everything is the same except you got punched in the groin.

 

* Note to Bioware: these are not the names of real people or meant to represent real people. They are made up names devoid of political representation and solely included to show the fact that elections are a thing which exists and chosen because they are an environment in which choice exists and is expected to matter.

 

Even in your analogy, it mattered. Who likes getting kicked in the nuts? Sounds pretty meaningful to me.

[SFDebris]

Even in your analogy, it mattered. Who likes getting kicked in the nuts? Sounds pretty meaningful to me.

 

But since you can achieve that result by not voting, and since your vote is otherwise meaningless, then logically the best choice is not to vote, which in game terms, means to cancel your subscription and not bother playing. Which Bioware's continued silence is suggesting is the only reasonable thing to do if you don't like being punched in the groin.

[Chessack]

But since you can achieve that result by not voting, and since your vote is otherwise meaningless, then logically the best choice is not to vote, which in game terms, means to cancel your subscription and not bother playing. Which Bioware's continued silence is suggesting is the only reasonable thing to do if you don't like being punched in the groin.

 

Your analogy is not correct. You said the choices are Vote for X, X wins, or Vote for Y, X wins anyway and you get punched for good measure. But that is not really what BW did. A better analogy would be, you can vote for X or Y, and it doesn't matter because your vote is not counted at all.

 

There is a huge difference between, I went to the polls, my vote counted, but the other side won and my guy lost... vs. I went to the polls and the polling place discarded my vote after I left. THAT is what BW did. They gave you a vote and then decided your ballot had a hanging chad and threw out your ballot without bothering to tally your choice. This is MUCH worse than if they tallied your choice but the votes went against you.

 

Think about the regular game. You play with 3 buddies. At the end of Esseles, there is a LS/DS choice. You choice DS, the other three choose LS. By random selection, one of the LS guys wins... are you mad at BW because of this? Odds are, you're not... because you got DS points, and because the game registered your DS choice (it counted your vote) even though you didn't get the on-screen outcome you wanted. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone complain about this, because their choice, even though it is not coming true, still, in a sense, mattered -- just like my vote for the losing candidate mattered, because it was counted.

 

But in KOTFE, you don't make a choice and then have it out-voted or something.. you make a choice that the game, as far as anyone can tell, utterly fails to record. The cutscene can only go one way, and the choice you make is utterly cosmetic. The game doesn't count your vote at all, but just does what it wants. This is much worse than the vote analogy you suggested.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

But since you can achieve that result by not voting, and since your vote is otherwise meaningless, then logically the best choice is not to vote, which in game terms, means to cancel your subscription and not bother playing. Which Bioware's continued silence is suggesting is the only reasonable thing to do if you don't like being punched in the groin.

 

You can't lose koth by not playing. That was the analogy, right? Losing koth=getting kicked in the nuts? Anyways, there is a change resulting from a choice.

[SFDebris]

You can't lose koth by not playing. That was the analogy, right? Losing koth=getting kicked in the nuts? Anyways, there is a change resulting from a choice.

 

No, you stated that choosing not to get hit in the balls is a result of this choice, and the easiest way to do that is to not bother making the choice in the first place. Therefore, the best this game has to offer can be achieved by simply not playing it in the first place.

[DreadtechSavant]

I'm tired of people going on and on that choices don't matter when in fact chapter 16 has two different outcomes depending on how you made Koth feel. They put in a choice that matters and some people still complain. And how Senya reacts the next time we meet is surely going to depend on how you reacted to her leaving.

 

I agree some choices do affect outcome, while other don't.

 

Such as you can lose companions by making choices, and really anyone expecting something more than this is been a little naïve. Such as I still have all my companions and did not lose any...... Except when the choice did not matter and you lose them regardless of which option you picked, because it was necessary for story development. Was not over keen on that part.

 

I do think though BW could add a little more freedom.

[DreadtechSavant]

No, you stated that choosing not to get hit in the balls is a result of this choice, and the easiest way to do that is to not bother making the choice in the first place. Therefore, the best this game has to offer can be achieved by simply not playing it in the first place.

 

The most single pathetic argument I have read on these forums. I expected better from you going on other posts by you.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

No, you stated that choosing not to get hit in the balls is a result of this choice, and the easiest way to do that is to not bother making the choice in the first place. Therefore, the best this game has to offer can be achieved by simply not playing it in the first place.

 

Ok, I agree. If you don't play the game, there are no choices to matter.

[gabigool]

Just IMHO -

 

If you have to say "See? Technically, it mattered." - isn't it clear that the mark was missed?

 

Personally I don't see Koth taking the Gravestone as mattering all that much as one of the following will happen:

 

1) We'll get it back

2) Koth will show up at the last minute and "save" us. Picture Fonzie waterskiing.

3) We'll find another way to destroy the fleet

 

Maybe there's something I haven't thought of but at the end of the day, I don't see it as mattering much, at least to me.

 

All that said, I do not see much point in holding out hope for choices really mattering. The most drastic thing they could do is kill off a companion but give us a way to get it back since everyone will cry over the lost influence.

 

This is an MMO. Choices can't matter, not the way some people seem to expect. And I don't think that even matters. My favorite parts of past BW stories had nothing to do with choices mattering. It had to do with the characters and the epic-ness of the struggle.

 

IMO the studio should back off the "choices matter" mantra as it's just borrowing trouble. If the story is good it won't need tricks.

 

Now - for people who want choices for replayability - I get that, but I don't see that as a realistic want from pure story. This is where gameplay enters the picture. It "seems" from listening to Ben on the podcast that he gets that, and I expect KotET to look very, very different than KotFE.

[SFDebris]

The most single pathetic argument I have read on these forums. I expected better from you going on other posts by you.

 

Well it's certainly not my position. My position is that the choice is effectively meaningless, if one casts a vote and that vote can make no difference in the vote's outcome, the choice has effectively achieved nothing. It is only if one insists that avoiding a predetermined "wrong" vote's side effect (someone choosing to punish you for your meaningless vote), that avoiding such a punishment is meaningful that the conclusion can be reached that it is better not to vote in the first place. But MY position is that voting itself should matter, not avoiding punishment for voting for the "wrong" person.

[casirabit]

Intelligence matters too, these whiners are not able to comprehend the full picture of the story and the obvious development limitations.

 

Except until recently (chap 13) we were told that the story was to end in Chapter 16 so then they changed it If the story was supposed to continue after Chapter 16 they should have been honest and upfront about it and told us then not 3 chapters left in Season 1.

[Theradonh]

This is an MMO. Choices can't matter, not the way some people seem to expect. And I don't think that even matters. My favorite parts of past BW stories had nothing to do with choices mattering. It had to do with the characters and the epic-ness of the struggle. .

 

Theoretically they can matter.. But of course you're right : It would be hard.

In a mmo there is no "save & load" so your decisions are permanent and without an option to play the story again something like " kill your companions" or " you can loose the story" would be impossible but with such a option they can create this decisions with a huge impact on YOUR personal story.

 

 

But of course : They won't . So Im waiting for the new ME.

[SFDebris]

But of course : They won't . So Im waiting for the new ME.

Well I'm hopeful. I have ten weeks of subscription left, it's my hope that if the issue is raised enough that during that time someone at Bioware will make clear that KOTET is going to be different. I mean, I stayed for KOTFE because I liked SOR, which I stayed for because I liked ROTHC, which I stayed for because I like my SI, KOTFE is the first utter disappointment, and I'd like to hear that it's a learning curve thing rather than the new status quo, but what we're hearing doesn't suggest that they comprehend just how upset or even outraged a substantial portion of their audience is, grasping the numerous story-related reasons for it. Andromeda is going to be good, I'd just prefer not to make it my lone BW game.

[Nothing_Shines]

When I reached the pinnacle of the bounty hunter vanilla story and was given the option of either assassinating the Chancellor of the Republic or carbon freezing him and delivering him to the Empire, I was presented with a choice that was cathartic, as well as an expression of just who my bounty hunter was after those first 3 chapters.

 

My main was furious that she had been dragged into a war against the Republic, then framed by the Republic for a bunch of evil crap she hadn't done when there was a mountain of evil crap she had done that she could have been charged with, she hadn't been paid nearly enough for any of the very few bounties she was allowed to go after, and largely wanted the whole affair over and done with so she could get back to being a bounty hunter. She listened to the Chancellor make his excuses and offer his compromise and then shot him in the face and called it a day.

 

That moment felt awesome and dramatic. It capped a long, drama-filled climb to become the top bounty hunter (Star Wars synonym for assassin) in the galaxy.

 

Do you want to kill this person who has so grievously wounded you? Yes/No

 

[Yes]

 

You kill this person.

 

What happens as a result of this action? The same thing that happens if you carbon freeze him instead: the old chancellor is removed from the game board and Saresh, the irritating governor of Taris takes over the Republic. And it's that follow-on event that has repercussions throughout all of the expansions. Every one is colored by Saresh's hawkishness, foolishness and eventual descent into fascism. She becomes an antagonist for both Imperial and Republic players. The bounty hunter's action had enormous, long-lasting effects on all other stories going forward AND the player got to feel like they had some agency in those events. They decided the fate of their personal enemy and the rest of galaxy then reacted to the power vacuum.

 

...KOTFE could have had this, too.

 

Arcann could have been redeemed and eliminated at the climax of chapter 16. He doesn't need to be in this story any more. He is a supporting NPC who isn't even the Big Bad at the end of the flagship bridge fight. The pieces were there to make something really great out of the season 1 build up: Arcann's guilty, forgiving mother, a jealous, wrath-filled Vaylin who shows up late and misunderstands what is happening, assuming it's all a plot against her, SCORPIO's Malak-like betrayal of everyone putting a clock on the decision, isolating Vaylin and forcing her down the Dark path, the Outlander deciding whether to argue with or for Senya to take a defeated Arcann into exile and undo his obsession with and corruption by Valkorian.

 

(LS) The Outlander opts for forgiveness and redemption, giving Arcann hope for once in his ****** life and allowing him to find that one shred of decency still left in him to stop Vaylin's ensuing telekenetic tantrum from killing Senya AND the Outlander, his eyes go normal, and then his broken body gives out and he dies. SCORPIO's attack isolates Vaylin and she retreats. Senya leaves the Alliance to seek solace alone in Wild Space - to return and deal with her daughter at the end of Season 2. Valyin joins with SCORPIO and assumes the Eternal Throne. Season 2 opens with the rearranged game board and a seriously irked Valkorian.

 

(DS) The Outlander opts for vergeance and punishment, straight up executing Arcann, breaking Senya's heart, and enraging Vaylin, who is stopped by Valkorian's gift of Dark Side power. SCORPIO's attack isolates Senya and Vaylin, and they both retreat. Senya leaves the Alliance to seek solace in Wild Space - to return and deal with her daughter at the end of Season 2. Valyin joins with SCORPIO and assumes the Eternal Throne. Season 2 opens with the rearranged game board and a gleeful Valkorian.

 

Same general result, same path for the writers, with only some variation in how Senya re-enters the story later on and the tone of Valkorian's continued whispering, and the player is allowed to have some agency over what is supposed to be their story - not Arcann's.

 

Going into Chapter 16, I had been beaten down by how most of the previous chapters had played out, but I still had some small hope that maybe, just maybe, at the end, after they even said they took extra time to make Chapter 16 the best it could possibly be, that something cathartic would be allowed to happen.

 

-Would I get to finally kill Koth? I didn't know.

 

-Would the Gravestone finally actually do what it's supposed to do and win a battle without having to run away? I didn't know.

 

-Would I be forced to chose companion assignments in this final battle and risk losing some or all of them if I chose poorly? I didn't know.

 

-Would I finally be able to cut off Arcann's head and move this plot forward, either to it's conclusion or on towards the actual villain I came all this way to kill: Valkorian/Vitiate? I didn't know.

 

-How would Senya and Vaylin react to me killing Arcann? I didn't know (but could guess: not well).

 

-Would my Alliance recruit numbers and specialist influence amounts have any bearing on the results of the battle? After ME3, I knew. They wouldn't.

 

The fight through the flagship was quicker than the usual KOTFE trash mob slog. The mini-bosses were fun enough and actually interesting to fight through. (Although I way overgeared them, so I was forcing myself to pay attention to their mechanics, when I could have just burned them down standing still). Then the Arcann fight happened, and I didn't need my magic blaster (knew it), because Arcann had dropped his patented Character Shield, and I ended up shield bashing him to almost, sorta death.

 

Do you want to execute Arcann? Yes/No

 

[Yes]

 

LOLWUT? JK. Try again.

 

I shot him in the face, the chest, the gut, and then watched the ceiling collapse and save him...for the third time.

 

I'm given a second opportunity to shoot down a lumbering shuttle in my space superiority starfighter at point-blank range.

 

Do you want to execute Arcann? This will mean also killing Senya (who betrayed you) Yes/No

 

[Yes]

 

A hit! You hit them! Once! Barely! And then they jump to hyperspace anyway! TROLOLOLOLOL!

 

I just sat there dumbfounded at how awful the ending was as Lana tried to spin things into some sort of triumphant victory during the denouement (which took so long that the game actually logged me out of my character, but the cutscene kept playing). I continued to sit through the longest credits I think I've ever seen in a video game, asking myself how could so many people make such a huge dramatic blunder, but I didn't even get to see the end of the credits for KOTFE, because they were soooo long that I was logged out of the game for inactivity and dumped to the server select screen about 2/3 of the way through.

 

The final joke. I mattered so little to what happened in KOTFE, that the game didn't care if I was actually playing anymore before Season 1 ended.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Nothing_Shines

[SerraShar]

I think the misleading (wich btw it is still there on the launcher) that is a low blow .

 

final showdown my butt . That was the crappiest fight ever . Taking or refusing Valk power mean nothing in the end .

 

I kept that fugly Lightsaber for nothing (yeah sure , small buff but come onnnnnnnn)

 

Gravestone is stolen (not stolen) like I care for a ship that so far been staying in dock .

[lilathrone]

Choices has never nor will ever matter in a very meaningful way. It is as it ever was in BW games, I feel many players only want to complain about something so they picked this "choices matter" aspect and rage about it. I only read some comments but they are laughable. It's like as if in DA:O ppl would complain about "I wanted to be the archdemon at the end of the game, I made choices so I can become the archdemon, but BW didn't let me omg my choices doesn't matter!!!". In any previous BW games, no matter what you do the end fight is almost always exactly the same.

 

In Kotor if you pick the DS choice the only difference is that you run the star forge with different companions and one of the bosses is different.

In DA:O you fight the darkspawn in denerim only 1 thing could vary based on your previous choices.

In DA:2 the same, there is a huge choice in the end, but the end boss fight is exactly the same no matter which side you picked.

In DA:I the ending and the last battle is exactly the same no matter what you did before.

As in ME:1,ME2 and ME3. Only in ME2 your companions may die if you make the wrong choices or skip companion missions.

And neither in ME or DA or Kotor (though Kotor2 hasn't been made by BW) do previous game choices matter in a very meaningful way.

 

Let's pick ME. You thought that saving or destroying the collector base matter? Or picking Udina or Anderson as councilor? Or saving/not saving the council? Nope, don't matter at all.

 

You might meet different npc-s based on your choices, have different dialogues, slightly different cutscenes, but that's all. And it's the same in ToR and Kotfe. Your overall experience may vary if you choose different dialogue options, not the ending of the game. So if you expect KOTET to take different routes based on your choices, let me tell you now you will be very disappointed.

[americanaussie]

Yes. They matter. People whinge that losing the gravestone or koth doesn't matter because it'll be replaced etc...like with Tora. But they also expect to be able to finish the game too. So they want their choice to really matter...but they don't want their choice to really matter. Like they don't want it to be more difficult without the Gravestone etc.

 

Bottom line: people are just pissed that

thru couldn't kill arcann

 

[Theradonh]

But they also expect to be able to finish the game too. So they want their choice to really matter...but they don't want their choice to really matter. Like they don't want it to be more difficult without the Gravestone etc.

 

Bottom line: people are just pissed that

thru couldn't kill arcann

 

Well I'm not. It would be fine for me to loose the story..

 

But seriously you can't say they matter, they really don't.

[Mowermanx]

You keep saying this as though you are some super-clever person who is the only one who can see this.

 

You keep saying this but present absolutely ZERO evidence to back your claims up.

 

You seem to think something changed at Chapter 13 with the announcement of KotET - it didn't.

 

And here is how I can support my claim.

 

 

You're taking what he said too literally and out of context.

I also said this in another post, that it became obvious that there wouldn't be a resolution in ch-16 after it was made known that 1-16 was just part 1. If you didnt, I dont know what to say.

IMO it went down something like this.

They release 1-9, lots of people come back to the game to check it out, numbers are up and the bean counters would be happy.

They then watch the numbers carefully as each chapter is released to see how the new content and release cadence is received.

By ch-13(7 months later) the numbers look good enough they decide to continue and give the studio the go ahead for another season, which would invariably change how they were going to end which is now only the last chapter of season 1, instead of the final chapter of the saga, or possibly a lead-in to the final chapter.

 

I based this on the premise they will of had contingencies in place if it was not well enough received to continue it, as no studio in the world would not have tried to cover all the bases ahead of an ambitious project like this.

 

As far as your theory goes, you're arguing against game design and numerous restrictions because of the million other outlanders walking around the world, and or simply fell for marketing speel and built your expectations way too high, its not hard tell a lot of people have from all the whiney posts since last Wed.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Mowermanx

[Boreazthenorth]

snip

 

Well written and sums up my feelings on the final fight and series of choices that were presented to the player at the end of the chapter as well.

As other posters have smartly stated, the biggest choice that was left for me at the end of this season was whether or not I would stay subbed throughout season 2 or just sub at the very end and see it all at once. At this point, it's not a difficult choice to make.

[Nothing_Shines]

Big spoilers for a bunch of BW (and an Obsidian) games and to save those uninterested from an even more massive post:

 

 

ME: So after I let Kaiden eat a nuke and saved Ashley, ending that romance in atomic fire on my first run, and then went on to convince Saren he'd been duped and he suicided during the final fight, I got the same experience on my second run, when I let Ashley eat the nuke and saved Kaiden, and then went on to taunt Saren about his failure and killed him myself? Really? Because Saren ended up zombifying and having to be put down twice, my choices didn't matter at all? Oh, wait, they did. I built up my Renegade so high that first run, that it didn't matter if I got through to him on Virmire, I blew his mind with my verbal Judo and then he blew it himself. Completely different emotional release to see the main villain realize you are right and kill himself versus a typical fight to the death and let fate determine who is right. Saving Ashley over Kaiden, my lover, devastated her. Saving Kaiden the second run led to him being super guilty I sacrificed one friend for another (I romanced Liara that time). Those choices mattered at the time, NPCs reacted realistically to events and later in the same game my past choices opened different avenues to victory.

 

Did ME2 screw with that when they time-jumped and then replaced most of the old crew? Absolutely. But that was the equivalent to Season 2, after I'd gotten my satisfying ending in Season 1. I expect certain things not to be carried over 100% the way I want in the follow-on iterations of a choose your own adventure game. But then ME2 gave me a ******ton of choices that mattered right up to and through the awesome final suicide run that I managed to luck through and ace the first time, and then screwed up (usually on purpose to see what would happen) on subsequent runs. That whole game was pretty amazing for making me feel I had agency.

 

Did ME3 screw with that? Hahahahaha! Yes. Yes it did. But it was on its way to becoming the best of the three games all the way up to the point where you run into the laser artillery and get blinded. Then the cracks of doubt over whether BW would fumble the ball became fissures that shattered the entire experience with the Three Colors Ending and your alliance was revealed to be pointless after a certain, very low threshold, and the consequences for all those choices you made across three games had been rendered meaningless. They screwed up so badly with that ending that they had to come up with some sort of bandaid to cover up the wound to their reputation and it was still meh.

 

DA:O - The hero can live or die in the final fight. Sleep with Morrigan or not. Allow Loghain to redeem himself and take the hit. Choose the next ruler. There's a crapton of choices that change how the game ends. Why would you even bring this one up?

 

DA 2 - Time jump, different protag. Major choices from first game imported save affect questlines/dialogue in this game. And then there's the make peace with / hand over companion / duel to death with the Arishok, before siding with the mages or the templars and deciding the fate of the city. Again...why bring this up? Choices clearly matter here.

 

DAI - Haven't played much of this, so I can't speak to how it all plays out, but the startup process using the DA website thing was pretty involved when I imported past saves. It's the third in a series for BW though, so they probably fumbled at the 1 yard line again. Wouldn't surprise me there.

 

KOTOR - On it's own, running a full Dark or Light side character through this story gave you all sorts of consequences, especially towards the end when companion deaths started happening. And then it ends with either the Light Side redeeming Bastila and saving the day by destroying the Star Forge, or Revan dooming Bastila to darkness and ascending a new throne with an Eternal Fleet of his own, ready to conquer the galaxy under a Dark Side banner. Standing alone, two hugely satisfying endings that rewarded choices made all the way up to the finale.

 

KOTOR II - An even better story (especially with the restoration mod) that told of the rise or fall of another great Force user as they regain access to the Force and survive betrayal to be redeemed or plunged further into darkness. All kinds of choices mattered here again, along the way and right up until the end.

 

Vanilla SWTOR - The journey from starting world to Chapter 3 finale made you feel like you were the center of attention, the focal point for important events. You decided who lived and who died - in the moment. Did each of those decisions get played up in detail further along? No. Then again, I don't expect the family of some mook I executed on Hutta to show up on Hoth in a story spanning 13 planets. I can temper my expectations and take satisfaction in knowing, in the moment, that something I did mattered, if only to that one mook. And the state of things by the end of each light/dark run of a class story is colored by how you chose to behave throughout. You even get multiple endings (some, like the Agent, get like three or four variants).

 

 

KOTFE - NOTHING MATTERED. Everything the Outlander did accomplished nothing. Everything is mocked and laughed at and undone almost immediately after you do it. Win a fight handily? Nope, cutscene says you lost badly and were beaten like a redheaded stepchild. Destroying the Star Fortresses? Nothing. Recruiting a billion allies? Nothing. Clearly going to kill the villain? Nope. Falling debris saves him on three different occasions. Koth steals your ship? Doesn't matter, he still fires the gun before leaving. No ally gained or lost mattered. Stealing the treasury meant nothing. Saving Havoc squad meant nothing - they die no matter what on their first op. Communing with the Force to make a magic weapon, even with characters that can actually USE the Force, meant nothing. Everything Satele and Marr said was a bald-faced LIE. Arcann hadn't gone beyond the Dark Side. He was cartoon evil and then he saved his mom and suddenly he's redeemed. Kneeling or not to Valkorian meant nothing. Agreeing with Valkorian every single time results in the exact same exchange of dialogue about how you're not doing what he wants and are a totes loser. Still no explaination of *** Valkorian's? ...Vitiate's? ... Sel-Makor's? whomever's actual motivation or plans are or why the Outlander (especially a mundane one) matters AT ALL.

 

Not a single antagonist was put down permanently, or even captured.

 

Arcann lives. Vaylin lives. Valkorian "lives". SCORPIO lives. The Eternal Fleet is intact. Zakuul still controls both the Empire and Republic. Koth lives. Senya betrays us (that's both Zakuulan recruits who betray the Alliance when forced to choose and I'm supposed to feel bad, if I let the Zakuulan singer eat it in chapter 15? Yeah, OK.). No great feat was accomplished. Our Alliance recruits all sat on their hands and did nothing while the Deus Ex Machina lumbered into orbit and managed to fire a few shots without blowing the Star Wars equiv of an EPS conduit every single time. Who we assigned to what task didn't matter. They all lived and did equally as well at all tasks because why not have more pointless choices to make? Lots of running around moving pieces with no clear purpose on a board we can't see only to pick up a magic shield, smack Arcann with it, and then have the game delayed due to Lucy yanking away the ball. Twice.

 

Where was my soul-sucking insane monster man? My furry, bug-faced berserker man? My numerous Sith and Jedi? My mad, shape-shifting monster doctor? My Findsman? My merc Trandoshans? My Mandalorian army? Why was NO ONE crewing the Deus Ex Machina but Theron, Tora and three redhirts? The Eternal Fleet hasn't landed ground forces since the Blur trailer. They hyper in, annihilate all enemy fleet assets, and then bombard the surface until the world surrenders. Why would all of my defenses for the Alliance base be centered around sitting on the surface waiting for an invasion that will never come?

 

Where are my upgunned tramp freighters and Pub/Imp snub fighters running CAP to keep enemy starfighters away? Why didn't ground control alert me to a bogey approaching my only ship, if the ship itself couldn't see it coming? Is everyone a traitor and really working for Koth or just incompetent? I know I'M incompetent, because the story keeps telling me I am. Is it rubbing off? Koth's crap shuttle he stole didn't have stealth. It was bigger than Senya's shuttle and everyone saw that appear on the screens the instant it left the flagship hangar. Why did neither the Eternal Fleet battlegroup nor the Deus Ex Machina fire on the shuttle? SCORPIO wanted Arcann dead. Koth wanted Arcann dead. Neither fired a shot. Why continue to fire on the flagship and completely ignore an escape shuttle...from the flagship?

 

What's with the stupid metal stalactite on the Deus Ex Machina? Where did the DEM come from? Who made it? Why is it specifically designed to one-shot Eternal Fleet battlegroups? Why does the Eternal Fleet always stay in such close formation when they know they're going to be fighting a single ship that can only kill them if they stay in close formation?

 

Why is SCORPIO's motivation suddenly completely different from her vanilla storyline and then different from early KOTFE introduction and then different again in chapter 16? is she trying to emulate Valkorian?

 

Did Roberto Orci write this? Am I watching the equivalent of Lost set in SW?

 

*Brain explodes*

Edited August 15, 2016 by Nothing_Shines

[Aricin]

What people get up to these days...

 

There is only ONE choice that matters, it is the choice of paying for a subscription or not. Everything else is BS marketing that has been seen for decades, in any part of industry or venue.

Right from the start I expected the whole "Choices that matter" to be just another sales trick, and having played everything from the ME and DA series I saw what "could" be the result of KotFE`s RPG storytelling.

 

Just a few examples, as the rest of "the horde of fellow alliance meatbags (read, companions) is not even worth the mention, going by the player having finished the last chapter:

Koth - was the most memoreable mainly because of the last chapter, and the only relevant choice that had an impact on the story. And even then the ending of chapter 16 is the same, with or without the Gravestone

Senya - has her own agenda, no matter how you treat her she makes the choice of "saving" Arcann, and will maybe hold a grudge if you decided to shoot at her and her loving son

Lana - even as a romance option...very, very little interaction with her

Theron - bland, not even worth the mention

HK55 - just lol, and I will stop right here as the rest is not worth mentioning, having to be sidekicks to deal with either a babysitter job for maniac and Major pussycat, or taking down 1 of the ships system..which always result in the success

 

So...more to come in future chapters where choice could matter? Most likely..maybe, who cares at this point anyway.

Personally, after having done all KotFE chapters 4 times, I now believe my money spent was not worth the content I was given in return.

 

I have learned my lesson, I was subscribed since the release of the first chapter till the very end, and like some or many I am too canceling my sub, waiting it out for months so I can have a reason to come back.

Do not get me wrong, I am aware that paying for a sub allows me "unlimited" access to the game, but having been with this game from the start there is little to nothing for me to do..and I am most certanly do not have the patience to chase achievements or collect cartel items.

 

Just speaking for myself, this has been the case for over 2 years, the span between my leave has been increasing and will most likely keep increasing if BEWARE keeps it up with this shabby, cheap and bland content releases.

 

Just my 2 cents, I made my choice....

 

^ This, a thousand times this. If you subbed for the whole time from announcement to chapter 16 release to get all the goodies (reskinned junk ...) you spend a $100.

 

Now ask yourself was that a good choice ....

 

While some of the chapters where entertaining many where not and the chapter 16 annoyed me like many others. My main is a BH, nice seeing the effort to shoehorn me into a LS Jedi story. That AND the fact that there is literally zero replay value lead me to cancelling my sub for now. That is my choice.

 

Unless I get a reason from BW to actually sub and a value from doing so then I will otherwise I wont. Especially in an MMO replay value is important its non existent here. Endless corridors of the same design. Two new enemies in a few variants. A story that only really fits one of eight classes - no thanks.

 

Revan was a much better expansion, for all the right reasons.

[Theradonh]

Unless I get a reason from BW to actually sub and a value from doing so then I will otherwise I wont. Especially in an MMO replay value is important its non existent here. Endless corridors of the same design. Two new enemies in a few variants. A story that only really fits one of eight classes - no thanks.

 

Revan was a much better expansion, for all the right reasons.

 

 

Well I will just wait a year, sub a month, play the kotet story in 12 hours and quit swtor.