Missing KotOR and KotOR:TSL

[DevoutKnight]

So, the above mentioned games are my favorite of all time; I really loved them. I'm now playing SW:TOR in the hopes it will provide a suitable replacement to a different MMO which I quit. I'm really enjoying TOR.

My question is this: Which jedi/sith class story line is the most awesome, and memorable, and well written, like the story lines in KotOR and KotOR II? And, also, which have the best companion stories, because those were a tremendous part of the other games?

Thanks, and I look forward to seeing your responses!

 

Also, I will be going LS. Republic or Empire doesn't really matter to me.

Edited July 19, 2016 by DevoutKnight

[Jagaimee]

Awesome, memorable, and well-written depends on your personal enjoyment of the story. I found the Jedi Knight's story an absolute blast to play through, full of wonder, excitement, and adventure (whoops, this isn't Adventures in Odyssey...sorry ), whereas other people find it cliche and boring. I thought the warrior's story was pretty boring, in contrast, but other people LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE it. So... *shrug*

 

That said, in regards to KoTOR, the Jedi Knight's story is mostly along those lines. It ties up a good deal of plotlines from both games (and the "Revan" novel afterwards), and seems to be the most connected to later storylines in later expansions.

 

As for companion stories, again, varying individuals' opinions will differ, since each and every companion is wildly different from the next. (Personally, I really like the knight's crew; the companions are very unique, likable in their own way [or ones that you looooove to antagonize for the sheer hilarity of it all...looking at you, Doc], and several of them are integral to the class storyline.)

[MattRhodes]

If you enjoyed TSL in particular I would recommend the Jedi Consular Storyline as well. Similar feel, more word-y than action-y and very rewarding in the later Acts.

[DevoutKnight]

Yea, I did enjoy TSL in particular. I think I enjoyed it more than KotOR, even. I just found it all extremely intriguing and full of great stuff.

[OldVengeance]

Personally I really found all the Force Wielding classes were fun, except the Inquisitor which had it's moments but felt mediocre and more boring for me.

[Iffyluse]

Jedi Knight story is too "simple" for something nuanced and interesting like KOTOR 2 writing. Nothing in TOR even comes close to it tbh. Maybe Agent story has its moments. KOTOR 2 is about shades of grey and how both Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same bull**** coin. Theres nothing in TOR that comes even close to Kreia's awesome monologues about the force. Edited July 20, 2016 by Iffyluse

[OldVengeance]

Jedi Knight story is too "simple" for something nuanced and interesting like KOTOR 2 writing. Nothing in TOR even comes close to it tbh. Maybe Agent story has its moments. KOTOR 2 is about shades of grey and how both Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same bull**** coin. Theres nothing in TOR that comes even close to Kreia's awesome monologues about the force.

 

Yeah but that's nonsense, so of course TOR didn't follow up on that.

Edited July 20, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Iffyluse]

Yeah but that's nonsense, so of course TOR didn't follow up on that.

 

True, it is nonsense in the PG 13 bioware SWTOR universe about bad guys and good guys, makes plenty of sense in anything that isn't a fairy tale. Which is KOTOR 2 and huge chunk of the extended universe novels.

 

I'd say bring writers from Obsidian, they know what's up.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Iffyluse

[Rhyltran]

True, it is nonsense in the PG 13 bioware SWTOR universe about bad guys and good guys, makes plenty of sense in anything that isn't a fairy tale. Which is KOTOR 2 and huge chunk of the extended universe novels.

 

I'd say bring writers from Obsidian, they know what's up.

 

Most of the EU disagrees. Dark Side = Bad. Light Side = Good. Following a grey approach in the force usually leads one to falling. Case in point.. anakin, Kyle Katarn, Luke (when he took that approach), Jacen Solo, and I can go on. Even in KOTOR 2 while it has shades of grey and tries to offer a different approach, following Kreia's logic would lead to the destruction of the galaxy. The galaxy can't exist without the force. Trying to remove it so people could be "Free" doesn't work and ultimately she had to die.

[MadDutchman]

My favourites, in order:

 

Inquisitor: I love the exploration of ancient Force lore, and no one else even comes close to the SI in this regard. Plus lightning everywhere.

Warrior: Can have a tendency to come across as a bit of a naive thug, but has the best companions IMO, by far.

Jedi Knight: This is basically KOTOR 3. Simple but iconic story.

Consular: This one can be a struggle. Act 1 is... painful for me, though improves later. Shows more of the diplomatic side of the Jedi, which is cool.

 

All in all, they are all good and should all be played at some point.

[OldVengeance]

True, it is nonsense in the PG 13 bioware SWTOR universe about bad guys and good guys, makes plenty of sense in anything that isn't a fairy tale. Which is KOTOR 2 and huge chunk of the extended universe novels.

 

I'd say bring writers from Obsidian, they know what's up.

 

Star Wars is a fairy tale. Kotor 2 was obviously trying to deconstruct Star Wars. So in that sense it felt oftentimes like writers who hated Star Wars writing a Star Wars story, so they tried to break the setting by adding shades of grey where they don't belong. I don't know if that was actually what motivated the story, but that's how it felt, to me. Case in point, the idea that Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin is preposterous. And trying to twist up the history of the franchise to make it true because they prefer a setting where everyone was an A-hole instead of having good guys and bad guys is not good writing. And that's just one example.

Edited July 20, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Rhyltran]

Star Wars is a fairy tale. Kotor 2 was obviously trying to deconstruct Star Wars. So in that sense it felt oftentimes like writers who hated Star Wars writing a Star Wars story, so they tried to break the setting by adding shades of grey where they don't belong. I don't know if that was actually what motivated the story, but that's how it felt, to me. Case in point, the idea that Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin is preposterous. And trying to twist up the history of the franchise to make it true because they prefer a setting where everyone was an A-hole instead of having good guys and bad guys is not good writing. And that's just one example.

 

If I re-call the writers actually didn't like the direction of star wars. Kreia was their mouth piece on how they wish the force was but they also understood at the same time despite how they felt about the force and their personal feelings kreia was wrong which is why ultimately in the end she fails, dies, and the character doesn't share her view. Whether you're light or dark Kreia's viewpoint of the force and goals is anathema to the force, the galaxy, etc. So she has to go either way. The game was to get people to really look into the force, think about it, and.. that's kind of it. I actually love KOTOR 2 for this reason. At least they don't force you to have to swallow Kreia's coolaid.

[OldVengeance]

Honestly, I felt like the game DID force me to swallow Kreia's nonsense coolaid. I never felt like I had the opportunity to point out the flaws in her philosophy and at the end, the narrative seemed to insist she had succeeded and been proven right all along. And once again I didn't get the chance to point out how I thought her perspective on the Force was ridiculous and I was going to forget her and ignore whatever supposed anti-Force teaching that she believed could not be allowed to die. Edited July 20, 2016 by OldVengeance

[adormitul]

Yeah KOTOR 2 was good but something was missing that made it a worse game then the first and that something is epic. In KOTOR I played a for most of the game a competent soldier that was found to be force sensitive and not just force sensitive but a very powerful one who learned in weeks what others needed years. So at first I taught I played a genius a anomaly and it was not the first time Jaden Korr was another I played. Sure there where signs but hindsight is hindsight and when I found out I played that legendary jedi turned sith all the time it blew my mind hearing all those amazing things he did and being him all along was incredible.

Things like that make a game and none of the class stories in SWTOR compare to such a epic sage KOTOR was.

That being said I liked the SW and the BH amazing stories about betrayal and revenge more betrayal on the SW story but you all get the point revenge is a *****.

[Deshiel]

I don't think that you will find anything relatable to TSL storytelling here.

 

TSL story was written by writters from a different studion than bioware and they focused on different path of storytelling.

[MadDutchman]

Star Wars is a fairy tale. Kotor 2 was obviously trying to deconstruct Star Wars. So in that sense it felt oftentimes like writers who hated Star Wars writing a Star Wars story, so they tried to break the setting by adding shades of grey where they don't belong. I don't know if that was actually what motivated the story, but that's how it felt, to me. Case in point, the idea that Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin is preposterous. And trying to twist up the history of the franchise to make it true because they prefer a setting where everyone was an A-hole instead of having good guys and bad guys is not good writing. And that's just one example.

 

And then Mortis happened and took a great big dump on that polarized philosophy.

 

Looks like The Bendu is going to take another one on that idea.

[Rhyltran]

And then Mortis happened and took a great big dump on that polarized philosophy.

 

Looks like The Bendu is going to take another one on that idea.

 

Except the Mortis episodes didn't take a dump on it. They made it very clear. Anakin could have represented the balance between light/dark because he's the chosen one. It wasn't something attainable by just any joe blow Jedi/Sith. Anakin was the force given physical form.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rhyltran

[MadDutchman]

Except the Mortis episodes didn't take a dump on it. They made it very clear. Anakin could have represented the balance between light/dark because he's the chosen one. It wasn't something attainable by just any joe blow Jedi/Sith. Anakin was the force given physical form.

 

Except the whole too much light or dark will lead to catastrophe thing. That is a direct contradiction of the whole simplistic "light = good, dark = bad" thing.

[Rolodome]

My personal preference is Sith Warrior. I would say it definitely plays to the feeling of power that you'd get out of a classic KOTOR title.

 

Agent is fun, but not really for the same reasons as KOTOR, imo.

 

Jedi Consular takes some time to get moving, but the latter half has a pretty strong KOTOR feel to it for me.

 

None of them are a perfect match, but SW and JC are the ones that align best, based on my experience with KOTOR.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rolodome

[Rhyltran]

Except the whole too much light or dark will lead to catastrophe thing. That is a direct contradiction of the whole simplistic "light = good, dark = bad" thing.

 

This has never been wrong in star wars. Not Disney or EU Canon. It's been widely established that if the galaxy itself was too far one way or the other it would lead to disaster. The Jedi aim for balance but understand following the dark side leads to corruption and degradation. There has been times in the history of the Jedi order not to get involved in certain events or even wars because it wasn't the will of the force to do so.

 

Likewise, there's other dark side using factions that the Jedi have left alone to practice their traditions because on the whole they aren't hurting anyone. The problem here is that the Jedi don't strive to make the galaxy light. The Sith do strive to plunge the galaxy into darkness. This makes them a balance upsetting force.

 

When it comes to force USERS as in individual people. Dark Side = Evil, Light Side = Good. Disney and the EU don't change this and haven't so far. It's no different than the Ying Yang concept. There can't be Light without Darkness. There can't be Good without Evil. The universe can't function with one but not the other. A mere mortal on the other hand doesn't seem to have the capability to truly be in the middle. At some point they will sway one way or the other.

 

This isn't the problem with Kreia. Kreia doesn't even teach balancing them out. She doesn't teach that you need to follow both. Kreia believes that no one has a destiny that isn't laid out before them by the force. That because of this, the force manipulates all events, and therefore controls people's lives. She believes the only path to freedom is by destroying the force itself. She wants to do this in order for people to be able to forge their own destinies and follow their own path. The problem.. life can't exist without the force. So she wouldn't be freeing anyone. She'd be ending existence.

 

I have a feeling something similar is going to be revealed in the holocron. I have a feeling they might actually canonize some of KOTOR 2. My prediction? Ezra will learn the holocron contains a secret on how to damage the force itself. The secret to destroying the Sith? Is by destroying the force. Why? As long as there is Jedi. There will be Sith.

 

Vengeance issue is with the idea one can "Be both Sith and Jedi and turn out alright." or "You can use dark side abilities for good." This is against the grain of star wars. Following the dark side eventually leads one to be consumed by it. This has been beat over our heads repeatedly.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rhyltran

[DarthDymond]

And then Mortis happened and took a great big dump on that polarized philosophy.

 

Looks like The Bendu is going to take another one on that idea.

The Mortis Arc is a really odd duck in that regard (beyond the fact that the whole concept of Force 'gods' came completely out of left field).

 

The visual symbolism of that episode sure supports the idea that the Light and the Dark should be in balance, and it's the fact that the balance was disrupted that's the problem.

 

But the script's dialogue vacillates between that view (The Father: "A family in balance. The light and the dark.") and a view that actually hews a lot closer to the 'Light = Good, Dark = Bad' philosophy that was core to Star Wars, as it describes the Son as just recently beginning to fall to the Dark Side and that this new development is what is throwing things out of balance (Narrator: "...the son, who drifts ever closer to the dark."; Obi-Wan: "But your brother is losing himself to the dark side."; Anakin "What will you do? Now that he's given himself over to the dark side.") - so the "balanced" state that had been lost was when the Son hadn't actually fallen to the Dark Side yet.

 

So yeah, Mortis really muddies the waters by at least intermittently endorsing the idea that Balance in the Force is a yin-yang balance between the Light Side and the Dark Side, but most of Star Wars seems to stick with the Jedi view that Balance = the Light Side, Out of Balance = the Dark Side.

Edited July 21, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Billupsat]

This has never been wrong in star wars. Not Disney or EU Canon. It's been widely established that if the galaxy itself was too far one way or the other it would lead to disaster. The Jedi aim for balance but understand following the dark side leads to corruption and degradation. There has been times in the history of the Jedi order not to get involved in certain events or even wars because it wasn't the will of the force to do so.

 

Likewise, there's other dark side using factions that the Jedi have left alone to practice their traditions because on the whole they aren't hurting anyone. The problem here is that the Jedi don't strive to make the galaxy light. The Sith do strive to plunge the galaxy into darkness. This makes them a balance upsetting force.

 

When it comes to force USERS as in individual people. Dark Side = Evil, Light Side = Good. Disney and the EU don't change this and haven't so far. It's no different than the Ying Yang concept. There can't be Light without Darkness. There can't be Good without Evil. The universe can't function with one but not the other. A mere mortal on the other hand doesn't seem to have the capability to truly be in the middle. At some point they will sway one way or the other.

 

This isn't the problem with Kreia. Kreia doesn't even teach balancing them out. She doesn't teach that you need to follow both. Kreia believes that no one has a destiny that isn't laid out before them by the force. That because of this, the force manipulates all events, and therefore controls people's lives. She believes the only path to freedom is by destroying the force itself. She wants to do this in order for people to be able to forge their own destinies and follow their own path. The problem.. life can't exist without the force. So she wouldn't be freeing anyone. She'd be ending existence.

 

I have a feeling something similar is going to be revealed in the holocron. I have a feeling they might actually canonize some of KOTOR 2. My prediction? Ezra will learn the holocron contains a secret on how to damage the force itself. The secret to destroying the Sith? Is by destroying the force. Why? As long as there is Jedi. There will be Sith.

 

Vengeance issue is with the idea one can "Be both Sith and Jedi and turn out alright." or "You can use dark side abilities for good." This is against the grain of star wars. Following the dark side eventually leads one to be consumed by it. This has been beat over our heads repeatedly.

 

Generally, I find people miss several key points about Kreia and TSL. Kreia does not aim to teach you to be balanced but to think your decisions and actions through. That even decisions made with the best of intentions can lead to disaster (the beggar quest at the start of Nar Shaddaa) and likewise how pointless cruelty serves no purpose (The same quest on Nar Shaddaa.) She's trying to teach the Exile how to be the best Jedi or Sith and be smart about it. You can disagree with her, offer rebuttals and outright refuse to listen to her. Hence, I've never gotten the 'claim' that no matter what you do the game makes Kreia right. If that's how people want to see it I cannot change that, but it does not make it the case.

 

A good deal of the game is spent on Kreia because she is the primary antagonist (You just don't know it for about 3/4ths of the game on your first playthrough) and the writers want you to understand who she is (Now, who she was is another matter that has no definitive answers) and her motivations. A little thing called good writing. So that by the final confrontation you understand why she has done what she has done, and are able to fully understand and see from her perspective why she did it. Which makes her a good villain, she's as well developed as the Exile (If not moreso, because she is static, whereas the exile can have a variety of interpretations being the player character, and harder to pin down motivations on specific playthroughs) which is the point. A Hero is only as good as his/her villain.

 

Now for the argument that it goes against the grain of star wars and the nature of the force. The light side is good, and the dark side is bad, not just a little bad but like a major bad, bad. Objectively, the audience knows this. But do the characters know this? Is it not possible for people within the universe itself to think differently and have compelling and seemingly logical reasons for their viewpoints. Of course it is possible. It does not however, make them correct.

 

Kreia is supposed to be wrong about the force, however, she's also supposed to have a compelling enough argument to give the character/audience pause and make then really examine what they believe. Which is what makes Kotor II, the writing is top notch and it actually makes you question what you know and whether its right or wrong from an in universe perspective, not an objective member of the audience.

[Rhyltran]

Generally, I find people miss several key points about Kreia and TSL. Kreia does not aim to teach you to be balanced but to think your decisions and actions through. That even decisions made with the best of intentions can lead to disaster (the beggar quest at the start of Nar Shaddaa) and likewise how pointless cruelty serves no purpose (The same quest on Nar Shaddaa.) She's trying to teach the Exile how to be the best Jedi or Sith and be smart about it. You can disagree with her, offer rebuttals and outright refuse to listen to her. Hence, I've never gotten the 'claim' that no matter what you do the game makes Kreia right. If that's how people want to see it I cannot change that, but it does not make it the case.

 

A good deal of the game is spent on Kreia because she is the primary antagonist (You just don't know it for about 3/4ths of the game on your first playthrough) and the writers want you to understand who she is (Now, who she was is another matter that has no definitive answers) and her motivations. A little thing called good writing. So that by the final confrontation you understand why she has done what she has done, and are able to fully understand and see from her perspective why she did it. Which makes her a good villain, she's as well developed as the Exile (If not moreso, because she is static, whereas the exile can have a variety of interpretations being the player character, and harder to pin down motivations on specific playthroughs) which is the point. A Hero is only as good as his/her villain.

 

Now for the argument that it goes against the grain of star wars and the nature of the force. The light side is good, and the dark side is bad, not just a little bad but like a major bad, bad. Objectively, the audience knows this. But do the characters know this? Is it not possible for people within the universe itself to think differently and have compelling and seemingly logical reasons for their viewpoints. Of course it is possible. It does not however, make them correct.

 

Kreia is supposed to be wrong about the force, however, she's also supposed to have a compelling enough argument to give the character/audience pause and make then really examine what they believe. Which is what makes Kotor II, the writing is top notch and it actually makes you question what you know and whether its right or wrong from an in universe perspective, not an objective member of the audience.

 

I admitted in another post I like Kreia as the villain. I actually agree with what you said for the most part. I was mostly commenting that Kreia IS a well written villain and not ridiculous. I was arguing in favor of her (maybe it doesn't come out right) because many people have beef with her because her views on the force are ultimately wrong and against everything we've come to know about star wars.. but she's the bad guy. The bad guy is supposed to be wrong. As you pointed out, she doesn't know that. She thinks she's right, believes she's right, and her experiences come to reinforce that in her.

[Billupsat]

I admitted in another post I like Kreia as the villain. I actually agree with what you said for the most part. I was mostly commenting that Kreia IS a well written villain and not ridiculous. I was arguing in favor of her (maybe it doesn't come out right) because many people have beef with her because her views on the force are ultimately wrong and against everything we've come to know about star wars.. but she's the bad guy. The bad guy is supposed to be wrong. As you pointed out, she doesn't know that. She thinks she's right, believes she's right, and her experiences come to reinforce that in her.

 

Right, I probably overreacted to some of the anti-K2 sentiment in this thread by the time I got to your post. That and its hard to read a person's tone online. I probably should have tried to sound a bit less confrontational but alas, I got carried away.

 

Its not that I don't get people's beef with Kreia, as I think everyone has stated it goes against the core of star wars, I just think they are taking said beef out on the game as a whole rather than try and understand how a character in the universe might react. Especially since I generally find TSL to have probably the most solid writing for characters in the history of star wars it frustrates me when people bash it due to misconceptions.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Billupsat

[Rolodome]

Its not that I don't get people's beef with Kreia, as I think everyone has stated it goes against the core of star wars, I just think they are taking said beef out on the game as a whole rather than try and understand how a character in the universe might react. Especially since I generally find TSL to have probably the most solid writing for characters in the history of star wars it frustrates me when people bash it due to misconceptions.

I think KOTOR2's ending, particularly the arc of Kreia, is a bit muddled due to the unfinished nature of the game. Even with the restoration mod, it's not totally clear to me what Kreia's endgame was and I've played it multiple times.

 

At first glance, it seems like her ultimate goal was to destroy the force, so that people would be free to make their own choices. But at the finale, even with certain things restored, it still feels like it never got fully written. It's unclear to me how Kreia thought that Malachor would play into the destruction of the force, or how she thought she was going to accomplish that with you. In the final scene, she seems to just sort of be playing teacher one last time, trying to get you to become another Revan, in a way, not falling in a simplistic way to the dichotomy of light and dark. (Didn't she teach Revan too?)

 

This or that canon argument aside, from the standpoint of only the games themselves, it seems one could almost argue that her "destruction of the force" goal was a red herring and she was really just after bringing about some kind of balance to the galaxy, after seeing its destruction written in her once-allies. Also:

 

She may have even caught wind of the real Sith Empire and knew that Revan would need the help of someone not blinded by ideology to help him in taking on the Emperor.

 

From start to finish, it seems like there is an argument to be made that her goal was always to keep the galaxy from destroying itself (first with Revan and the Mandalorian Wars) and when her allies cast her out, she knew that she now needed to destroy them. Where she could satiate and control her appetite for destruction, Nihilus could not. It's possible, within this line of reasoning, that she did indeed hate the force and want to destroy it, but never truly believed it could happen, instead using the idea of it as a catalyst to drive you in the direction the galaxy needed.