It's Official: Thrawn is canon!

[MoonDroid]

This post totally made my day. The fact that he is canon is fantastic news :D:D. Maybe I'll check out Rebels and I'll definitely read the new book.

[JediAkemi]

All hail Thrawn! All hail Thrawn!

 

Is it wrong of me to want him to destroy the cast of Rebels?

He's Thrawn. He's made of awesome. Ok, he's not infallible. He did make a couple of crucial mistakes in the Thrawn Trilogy (getting the wrong idea about the Noghri, assuming the Heroes of Yavin knew more than they actually did) but overall he was still brilliant enough to hand the New Republic their butts on a platter until Rukh murdered him.

 

The only problem becomes "How to do him justice without completely wiping out the Rebellion?"

Getting rid of the Ghost Crew is fine (especially Ezra and Kanan), but obliterating the entire Rebellion obviously can't happen. Time will tell.

[FlavivsAetivs]

All hail Thrawn! All hail Thrawn!

 

Is it wrong of me to want him to destroy the cast of Rebels?

He's Thrawn. He's made of awesome. Ok, he's not infallible. He did make a couple of crucial mistakes in the Thrawn Trilogy (getting the wrong idea about the Noghri, assuming the Heroes of Yavin knew more than they actually did) but overall he was still brilliant enough to hand the New Republic their butts on a platter until Rukh murdered him.

 

The only problem becomes "How to do him justice without completely wiping out the Rebellion?"

Getting rid of the Ghost Crew is fine (especially Ezra and Kanan), but obliterating the entire Rebellion obviously can't happen. Time will tell.

 

To be honest what they could do is have him obliterate the current rebellion, and Palpatine sends him off to the unknown regions after his success, and it gets reorganized around the characters we know from the movies (Wedge, Riekan, Mothma, Leia, Ackbar) who so far have only had nominal side-roles. It would also be great to see a Rebellion with a gnawing fear of "what if Thrawn comes back?" and they eventually either forget about him or think he's dead.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Spetulhu]

Although they retconned Chiss eyes (Thrawn's aren't featureless, but simply red irises and sclerae; but that could also be a stylistic/animation choice).

 

You're probably right about the eyes. It's possible to make it clear what a character with featureless eyes is looking at but it would require more work in animation - the things you can describe in a book just don't always translate well to a picture.

[Jagaimee]

Although they retconned Chiss eyes (Thrawn's aren't featureless, but simply red irises and sclerae; but that could also be a stylistic/animation choice), he spends the entire second half of the trailer until he turns around staring at a bunch of art pieces.

 

OKAY. I FOUND IT. *waves book around* A while ago, in a discussion over Thrawn's eyes and how they changed the design, I mentioned that Thrawn was originally half-human, and promptly got stuck looking for evidence about that. I knew I'd read it in the Thrawn trilogy itself somewhere, but I couldn't find where exactly (and my computer decided to hate me and freeze everything for about five minutes...it does that).

 

ANYWAY. I found where Thrawn was mentioned to, possibly, be partly human. The statement can be interpreted various ways, granted... :/ Still, it's a start. I think. Dark Force Rising, page 2 (yes, page 2. Buried in a large paragraph.)

"The fact that the late Emperor had seen fit to make Thrawn one of his twelve Grand Admirals was evidence of his own confidence in the man - all the more so given Thrawn's not-entirely-human heritage and the emperor's well-known prejudices in such matters."

 

So... *shrug* "Not-entirely-human" heritage. I guess that could mean anything from "a veiled way to say 'humanoid alien'" to "someone or multiple someones in Thrawn's lineage was human."

[CrutchCricket]

OKAY. I FOUND IT. *waves book around* A while ago, in a discussion over Thrawn's eyes and how they changed the design, I mentioned that Thrawn was originally half-human, and promptly got stuck looking for evidence about that. I knew I'd read it in the Thrawn trilogy itself somewhere, but I couldn't find where exactly (and my computer decided to hate me and freeze everything for about five minutes...it does that).

 

ANYWAY. I found where Thrawn was mentioned to, possibly, be partly human. The statement can be interpreted various ways, granted... :/ Still, it's a start. I think. Dark Force Rising, page 2 (yes, page 2. Buried in a large paragraph.)

"The fact that the late Emperor had seen fit to make Thrawn one of his twelve Grand Admirals was evidence of his own confidence in the man - all the more so given Thrawn's not-entirely-human heritage and the emperor's well-known prejudices in such matters."

 

So... *shrug* "Not-entirely-human" heritage. I guess that could mean anything from "a veiled way to say 'humanoid alien'" to "someone or multiple someones in Thrawn's lineage was human."

Yes I believe we were having that discussion. That quote could indeed be euphemism as much as it could be literal. I guess we can only speculate as to whether Thrawn was ever going to have a different origin and short of asking Timothy Zahn himself we'll never know. I will say that if there was a different origin envisioned for Thrawn I expect Disney will take it, just to give us the finger one more time.

Edited July 26, 2016 by CrutchCricket

[DarthDymond]

Yes I believe we were having that discussion. That quote could indeed be euphemism as much as it could be literal. I guess we can only speculate as to whether Thrawn was ever going to have a different origin and short of asking Timothy Zahn himself we'll never know. I will say that if there was a different origin envisioned for Thrawn I expect Disney will take it, just to give us the finger one more time.

Pretty sure any details on his new origin is going to come from Zahn's own pen in the Canon Thrawn novel he's writing now.

[CrutchCricket]

Pretty sure any details on his new origin is going to come from Zahn's own pen in the Canon Thrawn novel he's writing now.

Which he'll have zero say in if Disney wants to go one way. Even before Mickey, Lucasarts had final say in everything writers did. For example, the Noghri were initially supposed to be the Sith species in the Thrawn trilogy (and be the basis for Vader's mask) and C'Baoth was going to be a mad clone of Obi-wan. Lucas vetoed both.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Which he'll have zero say in if Disney wants to go one way. Even before Mickey, Lucasarts had final say in everything writers did. For example, the Noghri were initially supposed to be the Sith species in the Thrawn trilogy (and be the basis for Vader's mask) and C'Baoth was going to be a mad clone of Obi-wan. Lucas vetoed both.

 

Not going to lie, that was one of the few good decisions on Lucas' part, if true.

 

But I think Disney also knows that "if we **** this up our franchise is going to totally flop." After all, the whole reason they're bringing Thrawn back is because the majority of their market for the books and comics refuses to buy them. They make ****tons of money off the casuals who go to see the movies, and the toys, but the fans that buy the other merchandise (and typically watch the TV shows) are all pissed because of the EU. Although they probably don't give a terribly large **** about us, they do care somewhat to not piss off the fans that pack the audiences at conventions and whatnot, and that other merchandise (collectible action figures, books, etc) does have to sell and be successful.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited July 27, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[CrutchCricket]

Not going to lie, that was one of the few good decisions on Lucas' part, if true.

 

But I think Disney also knows that "if we **** this up our franchise is going to totally flop." After all, the whole reason they're bringing Thrawn back is because the majority of their market for the books and comics refuses to buy them. They make ****tons of money off the casuals who go to see the movies, and the toys, but the fans that buy the other merchandise (and typically watch the TV shows) are all pissed because of the EU. Although they probably don't give a terribly large **** about us, they do care somewhat to not piss off the fans that pack the audiences at conventions and whatnot, and that other merchandise (collectible action figures, books, etc) does have to sell and be successful.

 

~ Eudoxia

Ehhh, it could go either way. I'm satisfied with what they ended up going with in the trilogy but I can also see the benefits of what might've been. If C'Baoth had been the clone of Obi-wan for example they could've played up Luke's conflict even more as he tries to reconcile the memory of his kind and compassionate mentor to the ruthlesness of his clone. But yeah, I don't mind that decision overall.

 

I'd be inclined to disagree with the second part though. Part of my dispair at Disney's shenanigans is that Star Wars seems too big to fail. It's still very much a license to print money, particularly because the casuals who only care about new movies and the marginally less casuals who go "yay no Lucas means no more prequels" and that somehow translates to "they can do no wrong" are legion. Also, whenever I've complained about Disney in the past, some wise guy was always there to tell me the EU is a speck in the overall franchise, too minor for them to care whether we're upset or not. Something which seems to have proven true with what they've already done. More to the point, it seems clear to me they've gone out of their way to piss us off for reasons not yet fully clear to me. But what is clear is that toys are still selling, people are still losing their **** over the most mediocre content as long as it has that SW logo on it and Disney is staying the course for giving us the finger as they do lines off a ****** on furniture made entirely of money.

[Khevar]

Ehhh, it could go either way. I'm satisfied with what they ended up going with in the trilogy but I can also see the benefits of what might've been. If C'Baoth had been the clone of Obi-wan for example they could've played up Luke's conflict even more as he tries to reconcile the memory of his kind and compassionate mentor to the ruthlesness of his clone. But yeah, I don't mind that decision overall.

I agree.

 

We'd also lose the sub-plot of Luke believing that C'Baoth was a lost Jedi Master and train under him (until rescued by Jade). Luke seeing a clone of Obi-wan would be a completely different dynamic and (potentially) not as interesting, as Luke would know right off the bat that something was wrong.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Khevar

[dcaleb]

"This time it's canon."

 

It was all canon the first time (maybe not to Lucas himself, but it was to lucasfilm). Disney retconned it all.

 

Pellaeon would be a great addition.

 

I'm concerned as to what Dave Filoni will do with Thrawn though... he may ruin the character.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

 

It was never at any point in time canon, ever. It was at best 'sure, go ahead and think of it as canon if you like so long as it isn't contradicted by real canon but we reserve the right to contradict it at will in the real canon because it isn't really canon'. Disney just didn't mince words to try to appease people and shot down any notion of it being canon unless they deigned to have it show up in actual canon material. Nothing changed except them saying that the new policy going forward is that all new material released is real canon so fans don't have to deal with any of that 'but some material we are releasing isn't canon so it sucks for you if we decide to contradict it and you liked what we just wrote over' stuff.

[DarthDymond]

It was never at any point in time canon, ever. It was at best 'sure, go ahead and think of it as canon if you like so long as it isn't contradicted by real canon but we reserve the right to contradict it at will in the real canon because it isn't really canon'.

Say what you want, but the Legends / old EU had strict continuity rules for all their products - any novel, comic, or game that came out in the EU treated every other work as part of the timeline the same way as they treated the 'real' canon movies.

 

So around 230 novels, 700 comic books, and dozens of video games all were required to treat Thrawn the same way they treated Luke Skywalker - as an established and concrete part of their continuity.

[CrutchCricket]

*sigh

 

There's always at least one of these people in discussions like this. You could point to the explicit levels of canon, or to all the EU projects Lucas directly consulted on or indeed to stuff he ended up using himself... but you might as well be talking to a brick wall.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Kathleen Kennedy and Leeland Chee both on separate occasions explicitly stated the EU was canon, until the retcon. You can look it up, wookieepedia has not only the exact quotes but also the links to the news reports/etc. of them saying it.

 

Kathleen Kennedy, Leeland Chee, and the Lucasfilm Story Group would not be a thing if the EU wasn't Canon.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Rhyltran]

It was never at any point in time canon, ever. It was at best 'sure, go ahead and think of it as canon if you like so long as it isn't contradicted by real canon but we reserve the right to contradict it at will in the real canon because it isn't really canon'. Disney just didn't mince words to try to appease people and shot down any notion of it being canon unless they deigned to have it show up in actual canon material. Nothing changed except them saying that the new policy going forward is that all new material released is real canon so fans don't have to deal with any of that 'but some material we are releasing isn't canon so it sucks for you if we decide to contradict it and you liked what we just wrote over' stuff.

 

If you checked Lucas script for Episode 4 it was very different than Disney's script. People take Lucas quote out of context via the EU. He doesn't agree with some parts of it but he has also vetoed certain things he didn't want in it. In his Episode 4 it was going to take place way after return of the Jedi, star two completely new characters, and have Darth Talon from the Legacy era as the villain.

 

He may, when he had power, retconned some things in the EU but he took a lot from it as well. He also changed existing plans to follow with some of the EU as well too.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Rhyltran

[FlavivsAetivs]

I'd totally watch an Episode VII with Darth Talon as the villain. That's way better than what we got from Disney (Which is really the same as JJTrek 2009: a reboot).

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited July 28, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[Diviciacus]

If you checked Lucas script for Episode 4 it was very different than Disney's script. People take Lucas quote out of context via the EU. He doesn't agree with some parts of it but he has also vetoed certain things he didn't want in it. In his Episode 4 it was going to take place way after return of the Jedi, star two completely new characters, and have Darth Talon from the Legacy era as the villain.

 

He may, when he had power, retconned some things in the EU but he took a lot from it as well. He also changed existing plans to follow with some of the EU as well too.

 

Lucas may have had somewhat misguided vision for the prequels, and a spectacular inability to write coherent dialogue, but he at least understood when someone else had a good idea. Coruscant is EU-born, for instance.

 

Disney, on the other hand, thinks it knows what's best for everyone.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Diviciacus

[Pietrastor]

Disney, on the other hand, thinks it knows what's best for everyone.

Kinda, they thought "more control will turn up better new EU". Well it didn't. Maybe it allowed to avoid biggest missteps like old EU did, but it didn't produce anything as great, iconic or memorable as the best old-EU stuff. Sure, it's been going on for far shorter, but the point remains. Control doesn't automatically guarantee creative success. Marvel movies are, overall, better than Batman series (which includes giant missteps like Batman & Robin) thanks to tighter and more strict quality control by Marvel. But on the other hand none of the Marvel movies reach the cinematic heights of The Dark Knight. Creative control is a tricky thing, just a bit too little and you can get giant turds, just a bit too much and you can never expect something trully remarkeable.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Pietrastor

[DarthDymond]

Lucas may have had somewhat misguided vision for the prequels, and a spectacular inability to write coherent dialogue, but he at least understood when someone else had a good idea. Coruscant is EU-born, for instance.

 

Disney, on the other hand, thinks it knows what's best for everyone.

How is what Lucas did with Coruscant any different than what Disney is doing with Thrawn, and has already done with several other EU concepts, characters, ships, etc.?

[CrutchCricket]

How is what Lucas did with Coruscant any different than what Disney is doing with Thrawn, and has already done with several other EU concepts, characters, ships, etc.?

Wrong question.

 

The question is what did Disney do with Jacen and Jaina Solo, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and A New Hope in general? They chewed them up and spit them out some more unrecognizable than others.

 

Lucas generally ignored the EU, sometimes he overwrote or veto'd a few things here and there and sometimes he even used them. Disney doused it in gas, set it on fire and pissed on the ashes while cheerfully giving us the finger at every step. So now they say they're bringing Thrawn back. Why should we not expect them to stay the course?

[MadDutchman]

Wrong question.

 

The question is what did Disney do with Jacen and Jaina Solo, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, and A New Hope in general? They chewed them up and spit them out some more unrecognizable than others.

 

Lucas generally ignored the EU, sometimes he overwrote or veto'd a few things here and there and sometimes he even used them. Disney doused it in gas, set it on fire and pissed on the ashes while cheerfully giving us the finger at every step. So now they say they're bringing Thrawn back. Why should we not expect them to stay the course?

 

Because you forget who brought Thrawn back. It was not Disney, they probably don't even know who Thrawn is or how important he is to the fandom. This was Dave Filoni's doing, and he is not going to be inclined to butcher him considering the role Rebels has been taking on as the last bastion of the old EU.

 

Also, Timothy Zahn himself approved of what was done with Thrawn in Rebels, and I doubt he would have done that had they butchered him.

 

 

Now if they said they were bringing Thrawn back in Rogue One or Ep 8, ya, I'd be scared too.

[Darth_Advent]

There's a sense of misconception about how much direct authority "Disney" exercises on its possessions as long as they keep farming profit. Nobody has managed to bring forth one example of executive meddling besides the reshots scheduled for Rogue One, which could have been for any reason.

[Jarcen]

Say what you want, but the Legends / old EU had strict continuity rules for all their products - any novel, comic, or game that came out in the EU treated every other work as part of the timeline the same way as they treated the 'real' canon movies.

 

What continuity in the old EU? There were never any guidelines for a strict continuity in the books made, as there have been stories that contradicted others. The only stipulation GL gave was that none of his characters die in the stories; everything else was fair game. GL himself said he never read any of the EU, and as far as he's concerned the only canon ones were the movies and anything connected to them. The timelines outside the movies were never canon for him.

[DarthDymond]

What continuity in the old EU? There were never any guidelines for a strict continuity in the books made, as there have been stories that contradicted others. The only stipulation GL gave was that none of his characters die in the stories; everything else was fair game. GL himself said he never read any of the EU, and as far as he's concerned the only canon ones were the movies and anything connected to them. The timelines outside the movies were never canon for him.

If something happened in [book A], then [book B] was required to treat it as an established part of the universe's timeline (as long as neither was an "Infinities" title). If Troy Denning had wanted to include Chewbacca in his Crucible novel, he would not have been allowed to, because R.A. Salvatore had killed him off in Vector Prime. When Kevin J. Anderson was writing his Jedi Academy trilogy, he was required to follow the continuity established in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy that Han and Leia had twins named Jaina and Jacen.

 

Members of the current Story Group like Leland Chee had the specific job of keeping the ongoing stories in the novels, comics, and games in a consistent continuity. Anyone whose name wasn't George Lucas was subject to those continuity rules.

Edited July 29, 2016 by DarthDymond