Light Side and Dark Side make no sense

[KorPhaero]

I recently started playing a consular, (never played this class because i head how bad the story was) and decided that I was gonna play him as the epitome of the Jedi Code.

 

The problem I am quickly finding is that if you were to follow the code to the letter then most of the choices would be dark side( witch makes zero sense since I chose the most logical non-emotional choices there were).

 

(Slight Spoiler)

 

As an example the Master you are suppose to (cure) on taris. By the time you find him to the end he is a mass murderer who has killed 10s of not 100s of republic citizens. If you kill him at the end, you get dark-side points witch makes no logical sense. By this point everyone with the exception of his padawan wants this guy dead. If you kill him everyone pads you on the back( as they should) because they received justice. If on the other hand you cure him(light-side) and pack him off to the council everyone is angry and resentful.

 

If you follow the Jedi code the you are suppose to spreed serenity and harmony everywhere you go. But if you choice the light-side on the above you are creating anger and resentfulness by basically patting a mass murderer on the back and sending him merely off with a he'll face trial and with a reason that no1 but a jedi would understand(force plague and mind control, Really?)

 

The most logical choice with the greater good in mind and as a guardian of the republic is to simply kill him. If you have that in mind and are serene when you do kill him, then you should not receive dark-side but light-side.

[Tarlonniel]

Under many legal systems, if someone is judged to have been insane at the time they committed a crime, they are not held responsible for it. They are sentenced to treatment instead. Also, both summary executions and killing those who have been rendered defenseless are not the Jedi way.

[KorPhaero]

Under many legal systems, if someone is judged to have been insane at the time they committed a crime, they are not held responsible for it. They are sentenced to treatment instead. Also, both summary executions and killing those who have been rendered defenseless are not the Jedi way.

 

Im am not talking about the(legal system) Im speaking about how the people of the republic feel about the acts of terror that were committed by one who was there to protect them. Also one doesn't instantly become insane, so the only explanation I could give them (Force Plague and Mental control) doesn't mean anything to anyone who isn't a jedi, so what it looks like to the people of taris is that Im excusing a mass murderer because hes a Jedi. And that creates anger against the jedi, for no reason.

 

Also executions and so aren't the jedi way because most of the time when someone kills anyone for whatever reason , that reason has to do with a strong ( negative) emotion(anger, fear, hate, envy) etc..

 

But if you kill someone with no felling at all and for the greater good, then I don't see the dark-side in that.

 

Also nether here nor there but the morality of star wars is really childish. Because the only people that kill with strong emotion are people who do it for the first time or are mentally deranged. Professional assassins( people who kill others for money) exhibit no feeling in the act itself because for them it had become common place.

Edited July 15, 2016 by KorPhaero

[MadDutchman]

The issue is the difficulty writers have with light = good and dark = bad.

 

They are not the same at all of course, but Lucas created such a messed up system, it gets rather weird.

[Billupsat]

"The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution, no matter what their crimes."

 

I believe this quote here from Kotor sums up exactly why killing him is dark side. You have the option to save him, heal him, and if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light.

 

Its a pragmatic choice yes, but pragmatism is not the Jedi way. The Jedi are much closer to idealists than pragmatists, whether you like that or not is up to you but it doesn't change the fact that killing him is the dark choice, the easy choice, and redeeming him is the Jedi choice, the hard choice.

[KorPhaero]

"The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners. No one deserves execution, no matter what their crimes."

 

I believe this quote here from Kotor sums up exactly why killing him is dark side. You have the option to save him, heal him, and if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light.

 

Its a pragmatic choice yes, but pragmatism is not the Jedi way. The Jedi are much closer to idealists than pragmatists, whether you like that or not is up to you but it doesn't change the fact that killing him is the dark choice, the easy choice, and redeeming him is the Jedi choice, the hard choice.

 

Here is the problem with this, I am talking about the Jedi Code, there is nothing about mercy or compassion in there actually its against those things since mercy and compassion are emotions (There is no Emotion, there is Peace).

 

 

Also as to this ( if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light. ) it has to do with what my character is feeling at the time on the killing. If he is at peace and with no emotion because he is serving the greater good of the republic then, yes it it a light choice. Remember the Jedi are "Guardians of the Republic" not guardians of the jedi order.

[Billupsat]

Here is the problem with this, I am talking about the Jedi Code, there is nothing about mercy or compassion in there actually its against those things since mercy and compassion are emotions (There is no Emotion, there is Peace).

 

 

Also as to this ( if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light. ) it has to do with what my character is feeling at the time on the killing. If he is at peace and with no emotion because he is serving the greater good of the republic then, yes it it a light choice. Remember the Jedi are "Guardians of the Republic" not guardians of the jedi order.

 

It may not be in the Jedi Code, but you can bet its a part of the order's teachings. If you start going about things with the attitude that 'well, the Jedi code does not specifically say anything against this' then pretty soon your character will be doing all kinds of morally reprehensible things that while not in the Jedi Code, are most certainly dark.

 

Furthermore, Master Cyn Tyken was not in control of his own actions, he was being used by a Sith to achieve evil. You are essentially punishing him for someone else's actions. The Jedi Order may be the Guardians of the Republic, but last I checked Guardian did not include Judge and Jury. Your character can try and justify their actions all they want, but that does not make them 'Jedi' actions. Which is fine, but trying to claim that they are is simply not true.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Billupsat

[Limariko]

The issue is the difficulty writers have with light = good and dark = bad.

 

They are not the same at all of course, but Lucas created such a messed up system, it gets rather weird.

 

I'd say it was Lucas presented something very loose and vague recipe that once other writers began throwing in their own versions of ingredients ended up making a very messed up stew. Even going with Lucas basing much of the Jedi concept off of Buddism, going from my studies as a History Major, Buddists haven't always been the peaceful types we're more familiar with.

 

Going from the many alcohol fueled discussions about Light Side and Dark Side with friends over the years, our conclusions are the Jedi interpretation of Light vs Dark is just as broken as the Sith's actualization of their interpretation of Light vs Dark. The Jedi's main sticking point comes from not being able to handle how emotions interact with Force usage especially with the attachments people form so they take the extreme solution of shying away from all emotion and attachments. For them, any deviation from their interpretation is deemed as leaning to the Dark Side. The Sith take the opposite argument of embracing emotions, but sell themselves short by predominantly focusing on anger/hate/fear despite insisting they're really all about passion. If they really were about truly embracing passion and emotions, we'd see Sith channeling love, and joy as well as many others. Both sides are dropping the figurative ball, and essentially are in dire need of therapy.

 

My own interpretation tends to lean to something similar to how Michael Moorcock addressed his concepts of Law and Chaos in his Eternal Champion books of while Law was generally seen as good, it was pretty harmful to humanity in that it also meant eradicating individuality and resulted in stagnation, and while Chaos was seen as evil, it represented infinite change and variety. The best option for humanity was Balance which promoted individuality and measured gradual change. To put this in Star Wars setting, completely Light Side is emotionless stagnation while Dark Side is a constant boiling of emotions with no stability. Balance or the Grey Side is what's likely best in that it encourages healthy attachments and emotions while being cautious around the more negative ones.

[Analyst]

If you follow the Jedi code the you are suppose to spreed serenity and harmony everywhere you go.

Actually, no. You are supposed to act serenely and in harmony, but not to make everyone so. Doing so will be violent, and contrasting with the Order policy.

[Rhyltran]

Here is the problem with this, I am talking about the Jedi Code, there is nothing about mercy or compassion in there actually its against those things since mercy and compassion are emotions (There is no Emotion, there is Peace).

 

 

Also as to this ( if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light. ) it has to do with what my character is feeling at the time on the killing. If he is at peace and with no emotion because he is serving the greater good of the republic then, yes it it a light choice. Remember the Jedi are "Guardians of the Republic" not guardians of the jedi order.

 

It doesn't work that way. The Jedi code was never meant to be taken literally. The code is mostly used in metaphors. "There is no emotion, there is peace." means to not let emotion cloud judgement. Jedi laugh, they cry, they celebrate, and they crack jokes. You see emotion in all jedi, even in the movies, from obi wan kenobi, to windu, and even Yoda. Talking about "For the greater good" falls under "The ends justify the means" and that train of thought has created more Dark Jedi and Sith than anything else. The books, movies, games, etc has drilled it into our heads that if you go along the lines of "The end justify the means" you are following a dark path. Anakin thought along those lines, Jacen Solo, Revan, etc.

[casirabit]

I have done the story twice (once a shadow and once a sage) and from what they did is they knew it was not the Master that was doing it, it was the Sith that was controlling him so they both healed him. Yes the trooper was upset but not everything we do is going to be approved by a solider. He only saw that the Master killed people but couldn't understand how someone else was controlling him, even though when you first came to him you said that the Master was unwell and they well argued with you in the beginning.

 

To me killing a person that was not responsible for those actions would make me just as bad as the sith controlling him since my shadow/sage knew that he was being controlled. It would be easy to kill him but knowing he was being controlled made the choices a bit harder so in the end they chose to heal him and send him to the council.

[PlagaNerezza]

I recently started playing a consular, (never played this class because i head how bad the story was) and decided that I was gonna play him as the epitome of the Jedi Code.

 

The problem I am quickly finding is that if you were to follow the code to the letter then most of the choices would be dark side( witch makes zero sense since I chose the most logical non-emotional choices there were).

 

(Slight Spoiler)

 

As an example the Master you are suppose to (cure) on taris. By the time you find him to the end he is a mass murderer who has killed 10s of not 100s of republic citizens. If you kill him at the end, you get dark-side points witch makes no logical sense. By this point everyone with the exception of his padawan wants this guy dead. If you kill him everyone pads you on the back( as they should) because they received justice. If on the other hand you cure him(light-side) and pack him off to the council everyone is angry and resentful.

 

If you follow the Jedi code the you are suppose to spreed serenity and harmony everywhere you go. But if you choice the light-side on the above you are creating anger and resentfulness by basically patting a mass murderer on the back and sending him merely off with a he'll face trial and with a reason that no1 but a jedi would understand(force plague and mind control, Really?)

 

The most logical choice with the greater good in mind and as a guardian of the republic is to simply kill him. If you have that in mind and are serene when you do kill him, then you should not receive dark-side but light-side.

 

The age-old justification for taking another persons life. The person may be a homicidal Sith and the Jedi still attempt to arrest the individual. Emperor Palpatine.

 

Unfortunately, you don't get option of remanding the individual into custody of the Republic. This presents a far more interesting dilemma for the Jedi.

 

My question for our Jedi friends. Is it acceptable to remand an individual into the custody of the Republic if you believe that person is going to summarily executed? As Guardians of Peace and Justice it to me is a situation for the Jedi that is problematic. Does the Jedi Code allow them to remand people into custody if that person faces a death penalty for their crimes.

 

I've seen a lot of interesting Republic options that have me questioning somethings. Like the Jedi have the power to without trial execute individuals in custody? The Republic seems to be turning a blind eye to war crimes.

[KorPhaero]

It doesn't work that way. The Jedi code was never meant to be taken literally. The code is mostly used in metaphors. "There is no emotion, there is peace." means to not let emotion cloud judgement. Jedi laugh, they cry, they celebrate, and they crack jokes. You see emotion in all jedi, even in the movies, from obi wan kenobi, to windu, and even Yoda. Talking about "For the greater good" falls under "The ends justify the means" and that train of thought has created more Dark Jedi and Sith than anything else. The books, movies, games, etc has drilled it into our heads that if you go along the lines of "The end justify the means" you are following a dark path. Anakin thought along those lines, Jacen Solo, Revan, etc.

 

Ok apparently you guys don't understand where im coming from. I'm not talking about laws or the morality of actions, I am talking about how the Dark-Side and Light-Side is shown in this game. Morality cannot be light or dark side for the simple reason that morality is only based on the society it come from.

 

As an example, The Mandalorians have a warrior society, where personal combat to the death is accepted and raiding worlds is the norm. The huts live in a criminal society where slavery, spice and anything illegal is the norm.

 

So what Im trying to say is that light or dark side of the force are universal concepts and NOT based on morality, since the said morality can change with the culture.

 

As I said in my opening post if you have a situation there u can kill some and your mind is either i do it with a clear conscious and for the greater good, or just to see how his blood will splatter, then one would have to be light and the other dark. Because if both are dark then the whole system goes in the toilet, because i start getting dark-side points because a soldier fired a bolt which ricocheted and killed some1 a mile away. Or a character having a fight in an abandoned building and saving a baby but getting a brick dislodged which fell and killed a passer-by a day later.

[Limariko]

As far as the Republic seems to be overlooking war crimes, I'd say they most certainly are considering the actions of Generals Var Suthra and Garza. Even the Jedi are being really questionable with how they treat the Flesh Reavers since they're the native species on Tython, they are intelligent, have visible tool usage, possess a culture, have a belief structure and some are Force Sensitive, yet the Jedi consider them animals.

 

Regarding how Light and Dark choices are seen in game, I'm going to have to point the finger at Bioware's writing. For as much as on some things, they're amazing with how well they get it right, on other things....ooooh do they drop the ball big time. Bioware dropping the ball on moral choices is not anything new as it's easily been going on since Jade Empire with the Open Palm/Closed Fist options. Open Palm was supposed to be helpful and kindly with Closed Fist being firm with teaching self reliance, instead it played out as "act as a civilized human being or be a complete ***hole". Same can be said for Paragon/Renegade in the Mass Effect franchise which was supposed to be fair and upright behavior/act the anti-hero and really played out as "don't be a ****/be a ****" In SWTOR's case, Light Side/Dark Side tend to play out as "be a decent person/be a psychotic sociopath".

[Billupsat]

Ok apparently you guys don't understand where im coming from. I'm not talking about laws or the morality of actions, I am talking about how the Dark-Side and Light-Side is shown in this game. Morality cannot be light or dark side for the simple reason that morality is only based on the society it come from.

 

As an example, The Mandalorians have a warrior society, where personal combat to the death is accepted and raiding worlds is the norm. The huts live in a criminal society where slavery, spice and anything illegal is the norm.

 

So what Im trying to say is that light or dark side of the force are universal concepts and NOT based on morality, since the said morality can change with the culture.

 

As I said in my opening post if you have a situation there u can kill some and your mind is either i do it with a clear conscious and for the greater good, or just to see how his blood will splatter, then one would have to be light and the other dark. Because if both are dark then the whole system goes in the toilet, because i start getting dark-side points because a soldier fired a bolt which ricocheted and killed some1 a mile away. Or a character having a fight in an abandoned building and saving a baby but getting a brick dislodged which fell and killed a passer-by a day later.

 

If you play the different classes, you'll notice the empire's sense or morality (Light side choices) differs greatly from the republics. In the republic, pragmatic choices are choices that compromise morality for the good of the republic. Which is why they are dark sided choices. Unfortunately, Like Kotor and Kotor II before this game, your characters sense of morality was decided before you even created them, which is why their are light and dark choices. You don't get to decide their moral spectrum, only regard or disregard it as you see fit.

 

Conversely, the empire's pragmatic choices are sacrificing personal vengeance/gain/benefit in favor of benefitting the empire as a whole. Which is why those choices are light sided for that faction.

 

You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[Rhyltran]

Ok apparently you guys don't understand where im coming from. I'm not talking about laws or the morality of actions, I am talking about how the Dark-Side and Light-Side is shown in this game. Morality cannot be light or dark side for the simple reason that morality is only based on the society it come from.

 

As an example, The Mandalorians have a warrior society, where personal combat to the death is accepted and raiding worlds is the norm. The huts live in a criminal society where slavery, spice and anything illegal is the norm.

 

So what Im trying to say is that light or dark side of the force are universal concepts and NOT based on morality, since the said morality can change with the culture.

 

As I said in my opening post if you have a situation there u can kill some and your mind is either i do it with a clear conscious and for the greater good, or just to see how his blood will splatter, then one would have to be light and the other dark. Because if both are dark then the whole system goes in the toilet, because i start getting dark-side points because a soldier fired a bolt which ricocheted and killed some1 a mile away. Or a character having a fight in an abandoned building and saving a baby but getting a brick dislodged which fell and killed a passer-by a day later.

 

Star Wars has it's own morality. It's a universal morality. We don't have the force and Lucas created the world of star wars. He decided the morality in his own universe and has clarified that the Jedi.. are the ones that's right. Real world morality does not play into the fictional world of star wars. The force is sentient to a degree. So the "culture" and "Society" it is based off of is the force itself.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Rhyltran

[Jaiddyn]

From the side of the Jedi Code, they don't kill unless they absolutely have to.

 

The option and choice was there to heal and save the person. You knew as the Consular that he was not at fault for what he did. He was being controlled by the Dark Side and otherwise would never have done any of the things he did. Basically he was "innocent" because he was driven to it by the Dark Side and couldn't control himself.

 

If you, instead, choose to kill a person that did something "evil" against his will and desire due to outside forces, it's murder by the standards of the Light Side and the Jedi. You didn't have to kill him. You could have neutralized him and helped him. Choosing to end his life was a "dark" choice, so you got Dark Side points. Simple as that.

 

The reason being it was not "justice" that the soldiers wanted his death. Until they were sure what was going on, they repeatedly said they couldn't believe or understand why he would do that. Their anger and hurt is due to negative feelings; they wanted him dead because they felt betrayed. Feeding that desire for the sick Jedi to "pay" for his crimes was just fueling their negative emotions in a roundabout way. Which is not something the Jedi are supposed to do. Killing him in revenge for them just taught them that even Jedi agree that some people "need to die". As Jedi, you're supposed to be above that.

 

He wasn't a mad dog anymore, or at least he didn't have to be. Healed and sent to Tython, he would have been given treatment, counselling, and probably spend the rest of his life trying to atone and doing good for the universe. If you kill him, his life is over, not because he could not be helped but because you gave into the idea that their wrongly placed negative emotions were "justice".

 

Believing that the Light can always chase away the Dark is a core ideal to the Jedi Order. It comes up time and time again. If you snuff out the Light trying to get rid of the Dark, all you've done is create more Darkness.

 

That said, there are some DS options that just baffle me greatly, but that particular one is not one. Granted, logically speaking, it's not wrong to put him down for fear he might fall again and cause more damage. However, it's just not a very "Jedi" thing to do.

[MrStuntAction]

Think about Batman; he could kill the Joker and save thousands of lives, yet his moral code makes him spare its life again and again. If a rightful Jedi has the opportunity to trap the man and make him face a trial instead of killing him, you bet your *** that's what he'll do

[americanaussie]

I kind of see what you're saying...but, just because a person feels morally inclined to perform an action, it doesn't make it good or evil based on their intentions. A Sith may feel it right to destroy all of Alderaan, but it doesn't make that a "light" side choice.

 

The Jedi, at least in the way the Knight is portrayed in SWTOR, believe that every action leaves a mark upon your "soul". Although, the JK moves on from being controlled to do horrible things, the marks remain until healed. Taking a life leaves a mark that can taint a person and cause their descent into the dark side, even if the person was fighting the Jedi to the death.

 

I have the Book of the Jedi, and it also goes along with that theory by adding that Jedi will feel the force ripple with said deaths and it can haunt them should they let it. It leads me to believe that taking a life would be the very last resort and it comes at a price. My Jedi Knight always took the option to save a life or convert a Sith until KOTFE. It didn't matter whether the council or the republic supported her. Peace over violence. I'm pretty sure the Jedi are not well liked because of it.

[fovzwk]

How would killing the Jedi, that was mind controlled into doing evil things by someone else, while the option to free him of said mind control exists, ever be considered anything but Dark side? This thread is ridicioulous.

[Rolodome]

The Jedi way isn't about public relations. Note that they regularly do stuff that accidentally pisses non-Jedi off.

 

Example:

 

Tython, with the Twi'leks. It's clear from the start that the Twi'leks are pissed off that the Jedi have basically been ignoring their concerns. If the Jedi acted as you think they should, they would have been helping the Twi'leks from the start.

 

But the Jedi don't believe in starting fights or getting into wars, even if it means fighting for someone else. Probably the singular exception to this is when they defend the Republic. (This is also one of the main points of contention in the story of the Exile in KOTOR2, and the references to the Mandalorian Wars. The Jedi refused to go to war against the Mandalorians while fringe systems were being dominated, but Revan and many others did regardless of the Council's wishes.)

 

Some Jedi think the way you do, but it's not the accepted, Jedi-Council-approved way of being a Jedi. So yes, it makes more sense as a DS choice because there is no Gray morality system in this game.

 

 

Also:

Also as to this ( if you choose to kill him to satisfy republic bloodlust that does not make you light. ) it has to do with what my character is feeling at the time on the killing. If he is at peace and with no emotion because he is serving the greater good of the republic then, yes it it a light choice. Remember the Jedi are "Guardians of the Republic" not guardians of the jedi order.

This just sounds like weird justification for murdering someone. By this logic, any Jedi can be a mass murderer under the Jedi Code, as long as they are at peace and are telling themselves that they are serving the greater good of the republic.

 

But that's never been how it works in SW. Obi-wan didn't go to Vader, "I am at peace with the force, Lord Vader, and now I strike you down." WHAM, BAMMO. *Obi-wan kills Vader*

 

Luke is like, "Holy **** dude, you just killed Darth Vader!"

 

"Yes, Luke, I know from the outside, this looks bad, but I was at peace on the inside, so it's ok. As long as you're at peace, murder as many wicked imperials as you can find."

 

"Thanks, Ben!"

 

Later on, in the throne room...

 

Palpy: "Strike me down with all of your hate!"

 

Luke: "Nah, I feel at peace. I'll strike you down with that."

 

Palpy: "Wait, what? No! Stop! *urk*"

 

Luke: "Hey, this killing thing is kinda nice. I should do it more often. What was that technique Palpy tried to use on me? *uses Force Lightning* Oh wow, cool! I gotta use that. Hey! Emperor's Royal Guard, I want to test some cool Jedi abilities on you!"

 

Years later, Luke is speaking to his force-sensitive students...

 

Luke: "So I figured, why not update the Jedi Code? It makes more sense this way I think, with what I was taught. It goes like this: There is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, I obliterate it where I see it. There is no passion, like I said, I'm at peace, for real yo. There is no chaos, I enforce order. There is no death, unless you're a wicked imperial or sith. Then I'll make you one with the force."

Edited July 31, 2016 by Rolodome

[Elisaie]

There are different philosophies of Evil and Good and Dark and Light.In SW universe you have to choose between Dark and Light not between right and wrong because choosing darkness is right for someone while choosing light is bad choice.So these are two choices and they are bad or good depending on yourself.I don't like that philosophy but... Edited July 31, 2016 by Elisaie