Was Darth Marr really a good leader(Spoilers)?

[Slowpokeking]

Yeah he turned the tide against the pubs, but let the Revanite traitors got into the Dark Council, then he didn't find the conspiracy until we informed him.

 

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

[Asheris]

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

Because more ships were needed on the front? Because he preffered to surround himself with people he can trust over unsure masses? Dunno, I'm sure there was a reason.

 

Nobody is perfect but as Sith go - he was the best the Empire could hope for.

[Daex]

This is how I see it:

There is a group project and there are 12 members in the group. Every member is an expert in a certain field needed for the project. However, majority of members do not care about the project. They only care about their position in the group. You are the only one who cares and you are the only one who does any real work. Seeing that, you take all of the job upon yourself. Since you are not an expert in every field, you fail deeply at some areas. You end up being a leader without wanting and you end up failing to preserve something you all should have tried to protect.

 

So, no, he was not a good leader, but yes, he was a good leader (when you take a look at current Sith Empire).

[BlazeTomahawk]

Yeah he turned the tide against the pubs, but let the Revanite traitors got into the Dark Council, then he didn't find the conspiracy until we informed him.

 

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

 

In Marrs defense, he was searching for a single entity, that warships could not fight. Nobody expected ( or predicted) the Eternal Fleet.

 

Although maybe he should have asked the Voss about what he'd find

Edited July 12, 2016 by BlazeTomahawk

[Slowpokeking]

Because more ships were needed on the front? Because he preffered to surround himself with people he can trust over unsure masses? Dunno, I'm sure there was a reason.

 

Nobody is perfect but as Sith go - he was the best the Empire could hope for.

 

Then he should not go far with so few forces, since he was the head of the Empire.

[MadDutchman]

Then he should not go far with so few forces, since he was the head of the Empire.

 

Bringing an entire capital ship on an exploration mission? Under most circumstances that would be massive overkill.

[Slowpokeking]

Bringing an entire capital ship on an exploration mission? Under most circumstances that would be massive overkill.

 

No, either let someone else go or bring a fleet to protect himself.

 

It's not just the enemy, some other Dark Council members would surely want him dead and take the power, they are Sith.

[Codedrago]

Yeah he turned the tide against the pubs, but let the Revanite traitors got into the Dark Council, then he didn't find the conspiracy until we informed him.

And? That doesn't make him a bad leader, he's leading armies against the repubic, he doesn't exactly have time to search for a conspiracy, especially since the only proof that Lana could find was because she was apart of Arkus's powerbase. Hell, he has Revanite spies under his command, so odds are that they helped make sure he was preoccupied.

Like being beaten by Arcann doesn't make us weak, being outsmarted or infiltrated by the Revanites doesn't make him a bad leader (Especially considering that stuff like sniffing out traitors is the job of people like his own spies).

 

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

His forces were not few, they were pretty vast considering the fact that his search for the Emperor wasn't supported by the Dark Council (Who are most likly still realing from the recent attacks by Arcann) and he probably had to be discreit with him seeking the aid of republic forces as well. Also, how would him having more battleships of helped us? The Eternal Fleet was attacking us full on and we learn later that few vessles could outrun those ships, and considering we were at the head of Marr's fleet when attacking, we would of been screwed anyway.

[Asheris]

No, either let someone else go or bring a fleet to protect himself.

 

It's not just the enemy, some other Dark Council members would surely want him dead and take the power, they are Sith.

 

Don't be silly, you think he would bring honor guard with him to the toilet "just to be sure"? He stated many times he does not fear death, he was capeable of defending himself. And going with a full armada on a scouting mission was, like someone else stated, total overkill.

 

Especially that taking those ships would weaken the Empire on other fronts - and that he did not want.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Asheris

[Slowpokeking]

And? That doesn't make him a bad leader, he's leading armies against the repubic, he doesn't exactly have time to search for a conspiracy, especially since the only proof that Lana could find was because she was apart of Arkus's powerbase. Hell, he has Revanite spies under his command, so odds are that they helped make sure he was preoccupied.

Like being beaten by Arcann doesn't make us weak, being outsmarted or infiltrated by the Revanites doesn't make him a bad leader (Especially considering that stuff like sniffing out traitors is the job of people like his own spies).

That's not an excuse for his empire to be infiltrated like that. Especially Darth Arkus was responsible for military offense. The Revanites were able to lead an assault on Korriban because of the Revanite traitors, that was REALLY BAD.

 

His forces were not few, they were pretty vast considering the fact that his search for the Emperor wasn't supported by the Dark Council (Who are most likly still realing from the recent attacks by Arcann) and he probably had to be discreit with him seeking the aid of republic forces as well. Also, how would him having more battleships of helped us? The Eternal Fleet was attacking us full on and we learn later that few vessles could outrun those ships, and considering we were at the head of Marr's fleet when attacking, we would of been screwed anyway.

 

With more forces, they could protect the flag ship and give him time to escape. Even on that flagship we saw people got out alive. On Asylum we saw survivors and most of our companions had got away.

[Slowpokeking]

Don't be silly, you think he would bring honor guard with him to the toilet "just to be sure"? He stated many times he does not fear death, he was capeable of defending himself. And going with a full armada on a scouting mission was, like someone else stated, total overkill.

 

Especially that taking those ships would weaken the Empire on other fronts - and that he did not want.

 

But he was the leader, if he dies, the Empire would fall into power struggle again, that's what made him so important. See what the Emperor's absence and "death" made the Empire into a mess due to power struggle?

[thebumpkin]

That's not an excuse for his empire to be infiltrated like that. Especially Darth Arkus was responsible for military offense. The Revanites were able to lead an assault on Korriban because of the Revanite traitors, that was REALLY BAD.

 

That's hardly a damning smudge on Marr's record. The Revanites were able to put their followers right under Satele Shan and Saresh's noses too. Jensyn, and Colonel Darok... TWO high ranking traitors who orchestrated with Arkous to attack Tython.

 

With more forces, they could protect the flag ship and give him time to escape. Even on that flagship we saw people got out alive. On Asylum we saw survivors and most of our companions had got away.

 

Marr did have a few ships flanking him and he had a reasonable sized Force with him, but he clearly wasn't expecting, nor could he have reasonably anticipated the vastness that is the Eternal Fleet to show up.

[OldVengeance]

I kind of assumed Marr was traveling with a small task force as a result of the incident on Ziost. Specifically he figured more soldiers gives the Emperor more potential pawns and more potential for another disaster spiraling out of control.

[Asheris]

With more forces, they could protect the flag ship and give him time to escape. Even on that flagship we saw people got out alive. On Asylum we saw survivors and most of our companions had got away.

 

You still miss the point. They were not expecting the Enternal Fleet. Who could have? They were after a Force Entity, a single enemy, looking for the traces of the Emperor not going on a full scale conflict. There was no need for more ships but the unexpected happened.

[Ceinwyn]

But he was the leader, if he dies, the Empire would fall into power struggle again, that's what made him so important. See what the Emperor's absence and "death" made the Empire into a mess due to power struggle?

 

It makes even less sense that the SI would accompany him (which only occurs if the SI is the PC, of course. BW didn't write KOTFE from the perspective of all classes as we all know). Frankly, from the SI point of view, Marr should have stayed behind and sent him/her to confront the Emperor in his place. But from the perspective of the BH, for example, that would make no sense.

 

Overall, I think he was a good leader, not least because he actually stood up, in the face of an absent Emperor, and took the reins, fighting to make the Empire strong again. Malgus had the same idea but that's another matter.

 

On Makeb Marr says that it's important to keep the Empire united following the revelation of the Emperor's death. On Yavin, he tells the SI (s)he is the only one he can trust "to be truly in the service of the Empire", that they can keep the other councillors in check, he's pleased that the traitors have been dealt with and the Empire is strong again. I think he had noble goals (as far as the goals of the Sith can be noble, anyway).

[Analyst]

A Sith may clearly have noble goals. The methods of achieving said goals are completely different matter.

About Marr - yes, he is a good leader. First of all because in comparison with Vitiate, he is not indifferent to the Imperial people and he is able to limit his own ambitions.

As it was said before, he went on survey and hunt - not to battle with overwhelming foe. And taking into account that Marr simply could not trust the Republic, it would be dangerous for the Empire to divert forces from other places.

[LordDelectus]

Yeah he turned the tide against the pubs, but let the Revanite traitors got into the Dark Council, then he didn't find the conspiracy until we informed him.

 

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

 

Dealing with the Revanite Conspiracy would have been the job of Imperial Intelligence coordinating with Marr's sphere. Since intelligence was shuttered, Marr was in the dark.

 

As for the small taskforce, I theorize a number of reasons. One, Marr always prioritizes the defense of the Empire over everything else. This is seen by his personal flagship being the Terminus Class, and not the considerably more powerful Harrower. He didn't feel it necessary to use all the power of a mighty warship as a testament to his own vanity. Likely, he marshaled as many ships as possible to fortify Dromund Kaas and the Imperial core worlds against the power of the Eternal fleet.

 

Second, Marr was chasing a force spirit. He had no reason to believe the Eternal Fleet and the former Emperor were connected. He probably figured his chase into Wild Space would be far away from the Eternal Fleet.

 

Marr embodied the best qualities of the Sith without the many negatives. He saw the bigger picture of the Empire and what it stood for. He believed in strength and power and detested weakness. He was decisive and not burdened by dogma or morality. He was also NOT: vain, capricious, vindictive or paranoid.

 

He was the most practical force-user in the history of the galaxy, as far as I am concerned.

[Slowpokeking]

Dealing with the Revanite Conspiracy would have been the job of Imperial Intelligence coordinating with Marr's sphere. Since intelligence was shuttered, Marr was in the dark.

As the leader, why didn't he restore the intelligence until the end of SoR? The IA character even pointed it out in the Makeb mission and Makeb's discovery was the intelligence's work.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

You still miss the point. They were not expecting the Enternal Fleet. Who could have? They were after a Force Entity, a single enemy, looking for the traces of the Emperor not going on a full scale conflict. There was no need for more ships but the unexpected happened.

 

No, but Republic/Sith traitors/Emperor possessed forces is very predictable.

[myrdinn]

Marr is incredibly practical. Even in the storylines, when you see the fellow, he is always the moderating influence that stabilizes the excesses of the other Council members' actions.

 

He wears that armor as part of the symbolism he is dedicated himself to; he's the staunchest supporter of the idea of a prime Sith Empire. Therein lies his weakness; he drank the Kool-aid of what a prime Sith should be of the Empire, the philosophical ideal... power met with practicality and function. He is exactly the sort of authoritarian that a lot of folks respond to (Theodore Roosevelt, Kublai Khan, Alexander the Great, etc.), especially in times of chaos.

 

Depending on the situation, he would be a good leader. He also could be a bad leader... think General, then President, Grant. If Sith philosophy did not lead to essentially constant war (even in peace), then Marr's peacetime activities would be a lot like Grant's post-War of Northern Aggression's... and Marr would have similar failures (surrounded by the same sort of sycophantic, power-grubbing, backstabbing supporters).

[Codedrago]

As the leader, why didn't he restore the intelligence until the end of SoR? The IA character even pointed it out in the Makeb mission and Makeb's discovery was the intelligence's work.

 

Because it's not an easy matter of snapping his fingers, especially considering the circumstances in which Intelligence was disbanded; not to mention that Marr has to deal with the other Council Members on the matter as well.

[myrdinn]

Because it's not an easy matter of snapping his fingers, especially considering the circumstances in which Intelligence was disbanded; not to mention that Marr has to deal with the other Council Members on the matter as well.

 

And, he doesn't have control of the budget.

Marr's the head of the Defense department, not the Emperor.

The Sphere of Finance belongs to... hrm. One sec, at work and need to remote in to the house.

 

Edit: of course, how could i have forgotten. Darth Vowrawn was the head of the Sphere of Production and Logistics (which is the closest thing to a Chancellor of the Exchequer/Head of the Fed/Finance minister the Empire has.

 

...and Vowrawn's at a dead run at that timeframe.

Edited July 14, 2016 by myrdinn

[Slowpokeking]

Because it's not an easy matter of snapping his fingers, especially considering the circumstances in which Intelligence was disbanded; not to mention that Marr has to deal with the other Council Members on the matter as well.

 

He was the head of the Empire, and the intelligence was controlled by Jadus/Zhorrid, it should be easy for him to settle the deal.

 

Why would the Dark Council want the intelligence stay dead anyway? It's just retarded.

[PlagaNerezza]

Yeah he turned the tide against the pubs, but let the Revanite traitors got into the Dark Council, then he didn't find the conspiracy until we informed him.

 

In KotFE, as the Empire's leader, why did he meet with us with so few forces, if there were more battleships to protect his flagship, we could have escaped.

 

Marr's shortcomings from my prospective relate to his demand that intelligence be run by the Sith. A clear power play against Jadus. If you play as Jadus's Hand as the Agent you warn Marr about Lana Beniko's shortcomings at heading an Intelligence Operations. She's clearly a sneaky pragmatist, but is over matched by her Republic counterparts.

She even admits, as the pragmatist, to send a letter of resignation to Marr if your agent pushes her at the end of Ziost if you had the agent out himself to her and kill him.

 

 

As a retrospective move its clear that Marr and the Dark Council are under served by the intelligence apparatus and suffer "fatal" loss to the Eternal Fleet and Empire. If you play as the Agent you are seeing Jadus plan come to light. He's gone into "hiding" with his forces and assets and warned of a coming slaughter to the Empire/Sith. Marr played into his hand. Marr got himself killed, the Empire was conquered without the head of the Military. This has left basically Darth Nox and the Wraith as the only surviving Dark Council Member. To the extent that Marr's ship was captured is even more damaging. Arcaan's statements about learning about the Sith reek of other damages having salvaged Marr's personal flagship may have brought to light, like defensive information, fleet strength and positioning.

 

Jadus likely wanted Marr eliminated and knew he lacked the power to take him down. The failure to warn or get any viable intelligence prior to entering Wild Space stinks of Jadus keeping valuable information. Marr may have been a good leader, but he may just have been out maneuvered. We'll see on the Jadus front.

 

The other interesting prospective is that of the Agent and its encounters with Scorpio and the Star Cabal. It isn't as wild to see this story from the prospective of the Agent being a plot to eliminate all the Jedi and Sith only to find out the Star Cabal answers to Jadus who has seen the Jedi Order, Dark Council and the Eternal Empire fall and potentially has the Eternal Fleet as Scorpio answer to him. Thus making Jadus the new "immortal" emperor.

 

Something a Jadus type would be pulling the strings all along to eliminate all challengers and its amazing how the remaining two lightside outlanders are being "directed" to use the darkside to fight... Like Jadus is trying to convert them to be his Apprentice.

 

Eventually introducing the system of 2. Maybe....

[Slowpokeking]

Marr's shortcomings from my prospective relate to his demand that intelligence be run by the Sith. A clear power play against Jadus. If you play as Jadus's Hand as the Agent you warn Marr about Lana Beniko's shortcomings at heading an Intelligence Operations. She's clearly a sneaky pragmatist, but is over matched by her Republic counterparts.

She even admits, as the pragmatist, to send a letter of resignation to Marr if your agent pushes her at the end of Ziost if you had the agent out himself to her and kill him.

 

 

As a retrospective move its clear that Marr and the Dark Council are under served by the intelligence apparatus and suffer "fatal" loss to the Eternal Fleet and Empire. If you play as the Agent you are seeing Jadus plan come to light. He's gone into "hiding" with his forces and assets and warned of a coming slaughter to the Empire/Sith. Marr played into his hand. Marr got himself killed, the Empire was conquered without the head of the Military. This has left basically Darth Nox and the Wraith as the only surviving Dark Council Member. To the extent that Marr's ship was captured is even more damaging. Arcaan's statements about learning about the Sith reek of other damages having salvaged Marr's personal flagship may have brought to light, like defensive information, fleet strength and positioning.

 

Jadus likely wanted Marr eliminated and knew he lacked the power to take him down. The failure to warn or get any viable intelligence prior to entering Wild Space stinks of Jadus keeping valuable information. Marr may have been a good leader, but he may just have been out maneuvered. We'll see on the Jadus front.

 

The other interesting prospective is that of the Agent and its encounters with Scorpio and the Star Cabal. It isn't as wild to see this story from the prospective of the Agent being a plot to eliminate all the Jedi and Sith only to find out the Star Cabal answers to Jadus who has seen the Jedi Order, Dark Council and the Eternal Empire fall and potentially has the Eternal Fleet as Scorpio answer to him. Thus making Jadus the new "immortal" emperor.

 

Something a Jadus type would be pulling the strings all along to eliminate all challengers and its amazing how the remaining two lightside outlanders are being "directed" to use the darkside to fight... Like Jadus is trying to convert them to be his Apprentice.

 

Eventually introducing the system of 2. Maybe....

 

Yeah, I think Jadus had seen the Eternal Empire coming through his "research" on the Empire. That's why he went into hiding.