Arrogance and the Current Event

[gabigool]

Bro -

 

Super simple for you.

 

You keep implying "objective" means "Sees both good and bad in something"

 

That's not what it means.

[Khevar]

You keep implying "objective" means "Sees both good and bad in something"

 

That's not what it means.

Exactly!

 

An "objective" is that thing you ignore in a warzone so you can pad your stats.

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Khevar

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Bro -

 

Super simple for you.

 

You keep implying "objective" means "Sees both good and bad in something"

 

That's not what it means.

 

Are you trolling or what?

 

I've never once implied that's what it means ...

 

I think you're being rather subjective in your argument on what you think I think objective means.

[Lularapio]

Stockholm syndrome.

[gabigool]

Are you trolling or what?

 

I've never once implied that's what it means ...

 

I think you're being rather subjective in your argument on what you think I think objective means.

 

You continue to beat this horse that if the bulk of the things i post are negative i must not be looking at things fairly.

 

/shrug

 

Listen man, you hopped on me, I'm just trying to get your point. I don't see one.

[Andryah]

You continue to beat this horse that if the bulk of the things i post are negative i must not be looking at things fairly.

 

I usually stay out of other members conflicts ... but I'm with Menace on this one.

 

Are you denying your totally negative prosecution of the game and the studio? Your approach is not objective at all.. it is extremely biased....though it may genuinely be how you feel about the game. There is a difference... a big difference. If you are negatively biased against the game and the studio then own it.. don't pretend otherwise.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Andryah

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You continue to beat this horse that if the bulk of the things i post are negative i must not be looking at things fairly.

 

I do? Where did I say that then? More strawman crap I'm sure.

 

I challenged you to show me how you were being objective in your large wall of text post in this thread and you've failed to do that numerous times. You did later on imply you try to be objective right? So where is this objectiveness you speak of because so far it's rather non existant.

 

Listen man, you hopped on me, I'm just trying to get your point. I don't see one.

 

Then deal with the posts directed towards you that you failed to do earlier.

 

Piping up such nonsense and strawman arguments regarding posts directed towards other people won't make your previous posts any less "subjective" ya know.

[Lularapio]

I usually stay out of other members conflicts ... but I'm with Menace on this one.

 

Are you denying your totally negative prosecution of the game and the studio? Your approach is not objective at all.. it is extremely biased....though it may genuinely be how you feel about the game. There is a difference... a big difference. If you are negatively biased against the game and the studio then own it.. don't pretend otherwise.

 

If this is about his first post on this thread, I gotta say he put a whole more heart on that in comparison to the fickle arguments people are using to justify the shortcomings of this game. He does have a lot of valid points to the way they approached the playerbase with this update and I would take a few notes if I were a developer of this game.

 

Criticising him for being honest with the way he opinates about the state of the game does not merit calling him out on being a "negative nancy" or whatever derogatory term you guys use these days to name dissenters.

 

I would take his kind of review of the situation any time of the day compared to the general rose colored glasses opinions I see on everything they do. Yeah, the kool aid talk.

[gabigool]

Go back over the wall of text post you made and show me all the fair objective points you made in relation to this event and in particular to the OPs post?

.....

As I said above though, can you demonstrate the objective argument you made in that post because I would love to see it?

 

OP essentially stated that upon reflection he now holds a high opinion of this event, for the following reasons:

 

1) Players have an opportunity to spend credits/cc to attain vanity items that had previously been beyond their reach. I didn't bother with this point as I think the counter argument is pretty obvious.

 

2) Players have a say WRT which new companion we get. I didn't much bother with this point except tangentially to mention I really don't see a need for another companion.

 

^ Both of these seem minor to me but more importantly they seem less important than his next two arguments:

 

3) People get to experience more. I address this directly.

 

4) (His words) The best part: people are doing more. I address this as well.

 

People get to experience more. Those who were drawn to the game by KotFE and instant-60 tokens now get to see the truly impressive part of the game. I hope they don't just spacebar through it. Unless you're a vet who has done the stories before. In that case, spacebar away and get your rewards that much faster!

 

Is it really a good idea to "force" (<-- yeah it's the right word) new players to spend this amount of time experiencing everything this game has to offer instead of perhaps giving them a small taste of everything and allowing them the freedom to explore what they actually find enjoyable?

 

Why all HM FPs? Why not 2 or 3?

 

Why 15 PvP matches? Why not 5? Or combine PvP/GSF/Ops into one category. Let people do what they enjoy.

 

Why all 8 classes to 50? Why not, say, class stories for 4? Doesn't that make much, much more sense? Last I checked, The class stories were amazing. I can promise though that many players - many new players - aren't doing them. The tactical queues are full of them.

 

Why not, say, Planet Story Arc on two planets? Some were really, really cool. No new player doing this event is likely to know that, ever.

 

Bonus quests on two planets? Actually, I wonder if those even exist anymore. Certainly no one is going to be clicking on some random guy with a triangle over his head anymore.

 

Everyone seems to want to call this an event aimed at new players but I see it as crippling to a new player's enjoyment of the game. Without them even knowing it.

 

There is a ton of stuff in this game new players would love. And be able to spend months enjoying. Years maybe. Literally. Years.

 

But not at the pace this event is requiring. Please do not try to sell me on an event being aimed at new players that has as a requirement all HM FPs. That's just insane. Pretend you are, say a sniper. How long are you going to spend just in the queue? 20 hours?

 

I guess I'm not sure what you found in this to be so offensive. I see a difference between "get to experience more" and having to level 6 crafting skills and do all HM FPs. And while I've heard the "well, you don't have to do it all" argument, I'm not so sure it's a good thing when it's pretty much the only rejoinder.

 

If OP went and said something like "Wow, the first tier or two of this event are actually pretty cool" I'd probably agree. But he didn't.

 

Personally, I don't have a huge issue with the amount of stuff there is to do. I actually agree with a lot of what you constantly say to people who expect things to be retroactive. If people don't want to do it, don't do it. But - when you have things that literally some people will not be able to do at all.... I think it's not good design. I'm fine with having to invest time. But time leveling Synthweaving?

 

I guess the point I was trying to make is that "You don't want to do it? Don't do it" sorta also means you don't "get to experience it" either. I also pointed out that speedrunning 8 characters through the more "impressive parts of the game" is perhaps not doing it justice. I believe the 1-50 planets are amazing and participants in this event will likely miss half of it. For vets - no big deal. But for the 60 token people he described - I think it's a shame.

 

And, finally, the best part of the event. People are doing things again. People are playing. Any world I go to, there are plenty of people online, asking questions, recruiting for guilds, and just generally having a good time. This is what it's all about.

 

As I said - at first glance this does look good. Very good. But I think the "why" matters.

 

 

But hey, I'm "doing" stuff. Problem is, what am I doing?

 

I'm killing time.

 

Are players doing what they truly want to do? If so, why isn't Tython always at 150 players on a Wednesday night?

 

If it truly is a good thing to have players playing the game more - and yes, I agree that on it's own that statement is true - is this event really the best way to achieve that? Do you really believe that this is a suitable alternative to player retention? New content?

 

Do you really think a new FP or WZ (which OP said he'd happily delay for, essentially, this event) wouldn't get players playing? I believe it would. I guess I just am not so sure that seeing a bunch of people in gen chat on the first few planets is really helping the game get better, other than for a few hours for each of us.

 

If the content is good people will play it. If the value proposition exists people will pay for it. A healthy game does not wall things behind activities players would ordinarily otherwise not participate in. A healthy game does not have to, because there is enough things players do want to do already.

 

To touch on the whole "I'm bored" line that you've tried to turn into a meme - here's what I'm talking about - I generally log in to run Ops with my groups. Most other times I log in, I'll try to queue for something or spend some time in fleet trying to find something to do. Most of the time there's nothing going on unless I log into one of my Harbinger characters. So I sit in the queue for a while, maybe do a tactical if I'm bored, or log off and play something else.

 

This event has given me a reason to log in and have something to do. But what am I doing? I leveled five crafting skills today. I leveled a few other characters to 50 over the last few days - characters I wouldn't have otherwise leveled as I don't need them and won't ever play them again. I had 3 free server slots so I've deleted two of them already. It really requires bias to wonder at the logic of leveling up a character just to delete it?

 

Getting people playing is a good thing - from the standpoint of it's nice to see other players around. But I don't think it requires a totally negative outlook on the game to make me wonder if others are really going to have fun leveling crafting skills.

 

I think there are far better ways to get people playing this game again. I'm not sure how any of this isn't clear if you read beyond "I'm bored".

 

I get it. You believe that "nudging" people into areas they might not otherwise try is a positive. I don't disagree with that on principle. However this "event" doesn't nudge - it shoves.

 

People haven't tried flashoints? Here, do all of them. In both difficulties.

 

People haven't tried crafting? Max them all out.

 

You can't use the out "You don't have to do it all" and state how great it is people are doing all this stuff at the same time.

 

But beyond that - The event could have at least respected that some of us have been here for 4+ years and maybe we have tried this stuff. Maybe we don't do PvP or FPs or Ops because we genuinely don't like doing them - not because we haven't had the chance to experience them. Personally, I can do everything so I will. But I am far from alone in pointing out that "everything" includes a lot of stuff I'd never - ever - otherwise do. I'm not buying that is a good thing.

 

I dunno man, rereading it I really don't see what your problem is. I think you read "I'm bored" and decided to try to go nuclear.

 

I genuinely do not see your point. Are most of my posts aimed at discussing areas I feel can and should be better? Yup. If you really care to continue stalking my post history though you'll notice I never posted much before about a year ago. And I do try to keep my criticism fair, and reasoned. I don't rail on things like slot machines or wanting something for nothing. I'm not perfect but I can assure you - you aren't either.

 

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that people post their honest opinion but you're welcome to ignore me. I will not take it personally. But I think your tangent here was a bit out of left field and not really fair.

 

I'm happy to discuss with you in-game or in PM if you want because I honestly think you're just mistaken rather than trying to be an ***. But I don't back off a word, including the opener which I am pretty sure even OP took as simply good fun.

 

I'm cool just disagreeing /shrug.

[AlienEyeTX]

Do you really believe that this is a suitable alternative to player retention? New content?

 

Not at all. I've stated that this event is simply better than getting nothing, which is what I believe we would have gotten otherwise. Nothing about the event is new (activity-wise) and it was not designed well. But I can understand a few things that they were going for with it and I think it was good of them to try.

 

But beyond that - The event could have at least respected that some of us have been here for 4+ years and maybe we have tried this stuff. Maybe we don't do PvP or FPs or Ops because we genuinely don't like doing them - not because we haven't had the chance to experience them. Personally, I can do everything so I will. But I am far from alone in pointing out that "everything" includes a lot of stuff I'd never - ever - otherwise do. I'm not buying that is a good thing.

 

Given what they were trying to do, how do you leave out any part of the game from the "achievements" of this event? The mega grind is only for the top tiers, which should be difficult to attain. Do I think it's a bit much for me? Yes. Which is why I would never even consider going for those levels. And I think the rewards stink considering the time and effort it will take to earn them. But, that's just my opinion. Whatever keeps people playing until we get the next set of content (and beyond) is ok with me.

 

To the point of doing things that you don't want to: Why? The rewards must be what makes it worth suffering through. If that's the case, then it is what it is. If you don't like the rewards (I have no idea if you, personally, are satisfied with what they are giving) why would you ever make yourself suffer through doing things that you don't want to do?

[IanArgent]

Not at all. I've stated that this event is simply better than getting nothing, which is what I believe we would have gotten otherwise. Nothing about the event is new (activity-wise) and it was not designed well. But I can understand a few things that they were going for with it and I think it was good of them to try.

 

I can't disagree with this. My complaint is that there is no way for existing characters to participate except as "background support." Which is not minor, I maxed out one crafting skill already simply by using stored mats and making assembly components for my "primary" crafter in that skill, and will probably continue to go that route for the rest - and I can build levelling gear and get money and companion gifts using my old characters. From a game design PoV, this is a fairly heinous sin. From the actual practical PoV, it's not bothering me enough to make me do anything about it - I'm still subbing, I made a new character, and I'm playing the game and the event. Because these are all things I was planning to do anyway, I may as well get rewarded for it on top of whatever else I am doing. I might not have powerleveled as quickly as I am without the goad, but now that I see how easy it it, I may keep doing it. But, I hate the levelling grind. I want to be 65 and have all my skills and not have to worry about upgrading gear, and be getting max cash and alliance boxes from heroics.

 

The event is barely better than nothing; but nothing is exactly what the alternative was. 12x XP and a recycled blatant credit and time sink was what we got last summer, and while I'll grant that the rewards for the Nightlife event were new, I could never get into the "click, wait, click, get more tokens, repeat" mechanic of that "event. " This is the "summer reruns" of SWTOR.

 

Given what they were trying to do, how do you leave out any part of the game from the "achievements" of this event? The mega grind is only for the top tiers, which should be difficult to attain. Do I think it's a bit much for me? Yes. Which is why I would never even consider going for those levels. And I think the rewards stink considering the time and effort it will take to earn them. But, that's just my opinion. Whatever keeps people playing until we get the next set of content (and beyond) is ok with me.

 

To the point of doing things that you don't want to: Why? The rewards must be what makes it worth suffering through. If that's the case, then it is what it is. If you don't like the rewards (I have no idea if you, personally, are satisfied with what they are giving) why would you ever make yourself suffer through doing things that you don't want to do?

 

I'm going to say something potentially inflammatory, and I'm not directing it at anyone specific; because I haven't seen any one individual complain about this directly. But I have seen BW step around it (most recently with the TEC awards). Gabigool, this is specifically not directed at you - you haven't come close to this argument; I read you as being bored of all the content on offer now and waiting for the main thing that can offer you a challenge - a new Op. Which I can sympathize with.

 

Historically, the "best" rewards have come from doing the "hardest" content; mainly with statted gear, but also with some cosmetic items. Raiding (with a sliding scale of difficulty vs reward there) has been the king of the hill, followed by Flashpoints, and then to a lesser extent ranked PvP. Even in the weekly events, for Gree and Rakghoul, the fastest way to get tokens and rep is to take on the ops bosses, then to do the 4-man missions, and then only to solo. So some players have gotten the view that the best and largest rewards accrue to Operating, or 4-grouping. This event breaks that paradigm. The majority of the awards accrue to players of the solo game, with some minor PvP requirements, and a TFP requirement. The highest level still has a lot of single-player grind, and while it has a certain amount of large-group requirement in the Legendary Tier, the heaviest task is the "All HMFP." Which is a brutal timesink, and has me playing "what were they thinking" on my mental soundtrack.

[TUXs]

That's your defense on "why you enjoy the game" heh pathetic.

 

Then stop ruining it for everyone with your annoying negative nancy style posts. It's been going on for months now and any constructive attitude in the majority of your posts has long since evaporated.

 

You aren't make the game any better for anyone with such posts, you are making it worse and if anything possibly driving new players away which seems counter active to the claims you often make of "hating to see anyone leave this game".

 

Practice what you preach.

 

All you ever seem to do is complain ... end of sentence.

 

I mean, ffs, you actually came into a topic that was meant to be positive towards the event to bring your negative attitude in this time.

 

ORLY? Then why ...

 

Would you think a post by a user that basically goes out of it's way to explain and justify how bored they are of the game sums thing up so perfectly for you if you're not bored?

 

I mean if you aren't bored you sure do a bloody good job of convincing players to the contrary with your incessant whinging about the game.

 

Over and over and over ... and you get the point.

 

More careful so they don't come across as sounding like they find so much wrong with this game, agreeing with others on how boring it is and then trying to turn around and say how much they love and enjoy it.

 

Your negative attitude at times annoys me and it comes across as incessant. We only seem to agree when I have a criticism of the game to make and I do so regularly but I at least endeavour to balance it out by looking at both sides of the coin.

 

This event for example ... I've both attacked it and defended it depending on the argument being made and there have been many around it - BoP rewards, retroactive achievements, character slots, selling vs giving players slots to do the event, getting this in place of new content, whether the event itself is good for the game etc. etc.

 

Now this is of course only my perspective but ...

 

You seem to only have one mind set on these forums and that's only ever to support a cause that is against the game, very rarely in defence of the game you seem to love and enjoy so much and as I mentioned above any constructive aspect in your arguments against the game seem to have long since been removed or been repeated ad infinitum.

I just figured if you do enjoy this game so much there would be more balance in your posts because right now you don't sound like you are enjoying the game at all and are more or less trying to convince yourself that you do and justify your sub ... you come across as someone who needs a break from the game.

 

That is my perception anyway.

Pathetic? LOL! I don't need to justify to you why I enjoy this game. You can ask nicely if you're sincerely curious as to what I enjoy, but you're not...you're simply ranting and on a personal vendetta against me for whatever wacky reason you have.

 

I'm far less negative than you are. If you'd like to begin paying for my sub and cartel coins, you're welcome to tell me how I should be posting...but until that time, you should probably just add me to your ignore list since you're so personally effected and annoyed by my posts.

[AlienEyeTX]

Pathetic? LOL! I don't need to justify to you why I enjoy this game. You can ask nicely if you're sincerely curious as to what I enjoy, but you're not...you're simply ranting and on a personal vendetta against me for whatever wacky reason you have.

 

I'm far less negative than you are. If you'd like to begin paying for my sub and cartel coins, you're welcome to tell me how I should be posting...but until that time, you should probably just add me to your ignore list since you're so personally effected and annoyed by my posts.

 

Come on, TUX, don't lower yourself.

[Andryah]

Criticising him for being honest with the way he opinates about the state of the game does not merit calling him out on being a "negative nancy" or whatever derogatory term you guys use these days to name dissenters.

 

I'm fine with someone being critical of the game, as long as they are constructive about it, and as long as they are open to opposing viewpoints.

 

But to then deny they are being negative and biased is what I see as the core issue.

 

If a player genuinely feels so negative about the game that all they do is spout negativity... that is a personal bias. The same is true for people who feel positively about the game to the point where they see no faults with the game. Bot are fine, IMO, as long as the player owns that they are being biased, and accepts the fact that other players are going to disagree with extreme viewpoints.

 

To try to come off as objective... when almost every comment made in the forum is pejorative toward the game and the studio is just over the top bias IMO. Further, it undermines a players valid criticisms because it quickly falls into "chicken little" syndrome.

 

Whereas the OP presents a more balanced viewpoint on the event. Having been strongly negative initially, the OP, after thinking more about it, came back to a more centered position on the event.... seeing both good and bad in it. And frankly... every MMO I have ever played has both good and bad in it. Some people fixate on the negative, some on the positive, and some are in the middle ground.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Andryah

[gabigool]

To try to come off as objective... when almost every comment made in the forum is pejorative toward the game and the studio is just over the top bias IMO. Further, it undermines a players valid criticisms because it quickly falls into "chicken little" syndrome..

 

Please post one example of a criticism I've made you feel is invalid or unwarranted.

[Frenesi]

I'm fine with someone being critical of the game, as long as they are constructive about it, and as long as they are open to opposing viewpoints.

 

But to then deny they are being negative and biased is what I see as the core issue.

 

If a player genuinely feels so negative about the game that all they do is spout negativity... that is a personal bias. The same is true for people who feel positively about the game to the point where they see no faults with the game. Bot are fine, IMO, as long as the player owns that they are being biased, and accepts the fact that other players are going to disagree with extreme viewpoints.

 

To try to come off as objective... when almost every comment made in the forum is pejorative toward the game and the studio is just over the top bias IMO. Further, it undermines a players valid criticisms because it quickly falls into "chicken little" syndrome.

 

Whereas the OP presents a more balanced viewpoint on the event. Having been strongly negative initially, the OP, after thinking more about it, came back to a more centered position on the event.... seeing both good and bad in it. And frankly... every MMO I have ever played has both good and bad in it. Some people fixate on the negative, some on the positive, and some are in the middle ground.

 

You do realise good and bad things are often highly subjective? This event is godsend to new player, who will probably see it as positive thing and chance to get all the shiny stuff while exploring parts of game previously untouched. I'm mostly indifferent to it, becouse I decided not to participate at all. Some people, who already did all this but see the need to participate, will see it for horrible chore and uninventive recycling.

 

OP presents more balanced view becouse he obviously enjoys some parts of event, even if only in theory. Other people don't. Why are they instantly bashed as negative and toxic? What is the misterious "constructive citicism" that is in so high demand? Are we supposed to give suggestions to EA on how to do the event properly? Constructive criticism is fine when criticised side listens and takes notes, but here? It's just feedback sent to black hole. "**** this event is ****" followed by reasons is no better or worse feedback than "Oh, event is fine, but..."

[MadDutchman]

Hmph, well this thread has devolved since I was last in here.

 

Has anyone else noticed that almost the entire last couple pages have been personal attacks and arguments that have very little to do with the event or the OP?

Edited July 12, 2016 by MadDutchman

[rklontz]

That and it's kind of like a train wreck.

You know looking at it is wrong but you just can't stop yourself

[AlienEyeTX]

Hmph, well this thread has devolved since I was last in here.

 

Has anyone else noticed that almost the entire last couple pages have been personal attacks and arguments that have very little to do with the event or the OP?

 

I guess everyone has written what they have to write?

 

But, in all seriousness, what thread doesn't end up that way around here?

 

Back on topic: How do y'all feel about those new CM packs vs. the Event packs?

[ikinai]

Hmph, well this thread has devolved since I was last in here.

 

Has anyone else noticed that almost the entire last couple pages have been personal attacks and arguments that have very little to do with the event or the OP?

 

And no mention of me in ages, this is a thread about arrogance after all.

[MadDutchman]

I guess everyone has written what they have to write?

 

But, in all seriousness, what thread doesn't end up that way around here?

 

Back on topic: How do y'all feel about those new CM packs vs. the Event packs?

 

Well, most of them that go this far get deleted. I'm guessing the forum mods have just stopped looking at this thread.

[TUXs]

Back on topic: How do y'all feel about those new CM packs vs. the Event packs?

I'm indifferent. I understand people wanting "exclusive" perks for an event that's just recycling the base game, but I also understand people wanting a way to complete collections for items they've gotten. I hope this isn't Bioware's final tweak to the 'event', but I don't see it as a bad thing...they're here to make $ after all...why not make easy $ from those wanting more packs?

[TUXs]

And no mention of me in ages, this is a thread about arrogance after all.

I was just about to...but now it seems like I'm just placating you...way to ruin the surprise ikinai

[Frenesi]

Hmph, well this thread has devolved since I was last in here.

 

Has anyone else noticed that almost the entire last couple pages have been personal attacks and arguments that have very little to do with the event or the OP?

 

Good way to know thread died - ctrl+F "strawman". If you find one - discussion is oficially over

[AlienEyeTX]

I'm indifferent. I understand people wanting "exclusive" perks for an event that's just recycling the base game, but I also understand people wanting a way to complete collections for items they've gotten. I hope this isn't Bioware's final tweak to the 'event', but I don't see it as a bad thing...they're here to make $ after all...why not make easy $ from those wanting more packs?

 

One could even see it as a little nod to the people who are not interested in playing the event, but want a chance for some of the items. Works fine for me... I would only have done the event for the packs anyway. I'm never going to have the time to earn the companion or anything like that. At least this way I can sell the crap items that I have no use for.