PVP is now dead in swtor

[Acaelus-Thorne]

You'd be surprised how much better people do when they take 15 minutes to understand the spec they're playing, and then take maybe 2 minutes to parse it out and make sure they're recognizing all their procs. That's what decides games. 2018 expertise is easy as all hell to get, and you can have the required comms well before you hit 65 even with an insta 60. Just hit the weekly and you're practically there. Min/max 208 vs 204, isn't going to curb stomp. You'll have an advantage, but not curb stomping. People seem to mess up the simple **** that's clearly explained in the spec tree and they gimp their own damage.

 

This. Gear grind is not a thing anymore. Remember how it used to be back in the day? Plus some of us actually like to have full ranked sets with min max. I RARELY see people ************ to new players in regs. Rarely. There are a few ******s but its few and far between. Its when those people step into Ranked, without gear, and i'm going to make a general statement that is almost always true here, The people who step into ranked without ranked gear have no idea *** they are doing and its just wasting everyones time. That's when people get upset. Just as if I stepped into a HM RAID and didn't have any gear. Even on the dead servers, people are always dueling and figuring out rotations. All you have to do is ask. 9/10 times if you ask someone politely to duel for practice they will. There is no excuse in this game anymore to not know how to play your class with all the hand holding they have given. They new player gets a token, bumps to 60, learns maybe 10 abilities and think they can hold their own, then get mad when they get destroyed and complain. Regs are the place to learn. Not Ranked. But there is this mindset that everyone deserves to be in ranked. Completely untrue.

[Dayshadow]

You'd be surprised how much better people do when they take 15 minutes to understand the spec they're playing, and then take maybe 2 minutes to parse it out and make sure they're recognizing all their procs. That's what decides games. 2018 expertise is easy as all hell to get, and you can have the required comms well before you hit 65 even with an insta 60. Just hit the weekly and you're practically there. Min/max 208 vs 204, isn't going to curb stomp. You'll have an advantage, but not curb stomping. People seem to mess up the simple **** that's clearly explained in the spec tree and they gimp their own damage.

 

There are people who simply do more damage and take less damage than other people. Period. Like one guy, same spec, can take off 75% of another guy's health in one attack. Guy two uses the same ability and barely makes a scratch. This isn't a rotation. This is a single ability opener backstab. Identical conditions (minus slight level variation). This was tested. No amount of class knowledge can account for this. It's the same crap as launch were you have these super soldier would could solo entire 8 man teams. OK, it's not THAT bad anymore, but it's still bad. Because people who try out PvP for the first time are ran off when this is their first impression. I remember once a few years ago I was able to take on 3 guys at once, taking down 9 in total - back to back groups of opposing players. I'm constantly seeing people with non-healing classes able to outheal 3+ other player's DPS without a healer in sight. Rather they are bad players or not the sheer numbers alone should make up for it. I've seen entire teams have to converge on a single node in Alderaan WZ, for instance, to kill a single operative. Who can dish out loads of damage while healing. These super soldiers literally shred through one player after another. What is this? I've been away for awhile. Can you explain it?

 

If everything is so easy and stats (not just expertise) are irrelevant than it shouldn't matter if everyone has the same default stats. The ranked crowd can have all their fancy sets, elitism and stat variation. You also need to understand that most people are not hardcore into PvP. The idea of gearing up may be entirely a non-entity to them. Now you can say that's their problem. Fine. But don't complain that PvP is dead when those types aren't queuing because of elite hardcore super solider curb stomping them because they aren't interesting in (or even are ignorant of) PvP gearing mechanics. They are the one who are going to potentially be filling the WZs if the queues were as fast as you guys would like.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

What? lol?

 

The gear grind in this game is extremely fast.. they updated the grind so you can play like 10 games and get a full set of PvP gear. This grind is NOTHING compared to other PvP games; they are literally giving the gear for free.

 

Everyone has the same default stats...? Not sure where that comment is coming from. The only differences you would see if people got datacons or not and thats purely PvE object finding.

 

Then it shouldn't be a problem since there practically is no grind anyway, right? And the ranked crowd can still have their gear dependency and whatnot.

 

You say this game's grind is nothing compared to other games? Which games? Could you name some? I'm surprised other games have any kind of grind whatsoever in this day and age. Other than maybe EVE.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Icykill_]

-10/10 B.S. whining attempt

 

I have no issue getting matches. I don't have any 65 characters so maybe your issue is there. I can't speak for that, but I have no issues whatsoever getting into matches. Is 1 pm primetime on an east coast server? I'm retired. I play at all kinds of hours. Right now it's 9 am and I guarantee I can get into matches right now. There are typically 70-111 players on fleet in midday.

 

The games not dying. PvP is fine on Ebon Hawk. You're not happy and therefore nobody should be. Your type is nothing new.

 

Firstly, considering you don't have any lvl 65s, tells me you've not played the game for long. You are popping lowbies and mids because people are doing DvL.

You are in the minority if you think there isn't a population problem. If you think 70-111 people on the fleet is a lot, then you need to rethink your definitions. A lot is 3-4 fleet instances, 2-3 fleet instances is a good population, 2 fleet instances ok. Seeing as 160-170 is when another instance is created, 70-111 is terrible. Especially when you consider that 80% of those people aren't pvpers or all at the same LvLs.

Your pops might be fast, but I'm guessing it's nearly always the same people popping together or close to it. While that seems good, what happens when some of those people don't queue. The pop times can go from 5mins to 20mins and then onto 1 hour and more very quickly.

I've played since launch, as have many of the other people in this forum. Your comments about whining and "my type being nothing new" show your ignorance to the issue. If you want to get into a slinging match and try to derail the thread, then have at it. You'll be the one who ends up looking stupid through your pure ignorance.

 

Edit : after reading your responses and posts to other people, who I can tell you have been around for a long time and most since launch, that you really have no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest you stop attacking everyone aggressively and maybe ask questions, because it's obvious you need to L2Post intelligently as well as L2Play or at least understand the meta and abilities of all classes before making unyielding statements about gear, damage or population.

Either that or you are trolling, in which case, good luck talking to yourself.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Icykill_

[Dayshadow]

Firstly, considering you don't have any lvl 65s, tells me you've not played the game for long. You are popping lowbies and mids because people are doing DvL.

You are in the minority if you think there isn't a population problem. If you think 70-111 people on the fleet is a lot, then you need to rethink your definitions. A lot is 3-4 fleet instances, 2-3 fleet instances is a good population, 2 fleet instances ok. Seeing as 160-170 is when another instance is created, 70-111 is terrible. Especially when you consider that 80% of those people aren't pvpers or all at the same LvLs.

Your pops might be fast, but I'm guessing it's nearly always the same people popping together or close to it. While that seems good, what happens when some of those people don't queue. The pop times can go from 5mins to 20mins and then onto 1 hour and more very quickly.

I've played since launch, as have many of the other people in this forum. Your comments about whining and "my type being nothing new" show your ignorance to the issue. If you want to get into a slinging match and try to derail the thread, then have at it. You'll be the one who ends up looking stupid through your pure ignorance.

 

Edit : after reading your responses and posts to other people, who I can tell you have been around for a long time and most since launch, that you really have no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest you stop attacking everyone aggressively and maybe ask questions, because it's obvious you need to L2Post intelligently as well as L2Play or at least understand the meta and abilities of all classes before making unyielding statements about gear, damage or population.

Either that or you are trolling, in which case, good luck talking to yourself.

 

How many people should be on at 12pm on a weekday? 500? I've played since Beta. Your type is nothing new. Not for this game, MMOs of the past and certain not going into the future. No one is ignorant for not agreeing with your whining and expectations that a 5 year old MMO maintain launch level activity. The fact that your only recourse is personal attacks tells me right off the bat you have nothing put angst and personal frustration. When facts are considered over your baseless whining you implode. Again, nothing new.

 

I suggest you stop attacking everyone aggressively and maybe ask questions

 

There are people who simply do more damage and take less damage than other people. Period. Like one guy, same spec, can take off 75% of another guy's health in one attack. Guy two uses the same ability and barely makes a scratch. This isn't a rotation. This is a single ability opener backstab. Identical conditions (minus slight level variation). This was tested. No amount of class knowledge can account for this. It's the same crap as launch were you have these super soldier would could solo entire 8 man teams. OK, it's not THAT bad anymore, but it's still bad. Because people who try out PvP for the first time are ran off when this is their first impression. I remember once a few years ago I was able to take on 3 guys at once, taking down 9 in total - back to back groups of opposing players. I'm constantly seeing people with non-healing classes able to outheal 3+ other player's DPS without a healer in sight. Rather they are bad players or not the sheer numbers alone should make up for it. I've seen entire teams have to converge on a single node in Alderaan WZ, for instance, to kill a single operative. Who can dish out loads of damage while healing. These super soldiers literally shred through one player after another. What is this? I've been away for awhile. Can you explain it?

 

Please explain. Come on. Enlighten me. Educate me on the cool new self healing abilities of snipers that rival an actual healer.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Dayshadow

[mfourcustom]

sig lul

[frosttj]

There are people who simply do more damage and take less damage than other people. Period. Like one guy, same spec, can take off 75% of another guy's health in one attack. Guy two uses the same ability and barely makes a scratch. This isn't a rotation. This is a single ability opener backstab. Identical conditions (minus slight level variation). This was tested. No amount of class knowledge can account for this. It's the same crap as launch were you have these super soldier would could solo entire 8 man teams. OK, it's not THAT bad anymore, but it's still bad. Because people who try out PvP for the first time are ran off when this is their first impression. I remember once a few years ago I was able to take on 3 guys at once, taking down 9 in total - back to back groups of opposing players. I'm constantly seeing people with non-healing classes able to outheal 3+ other player's DPS without a healer in sight. Rather they are bad players or not the sheer numbers alone should make up for it. I've seen entire teams have to converge on a single node in Alderaan WZ, for instance, to kill a single operative. Who can dish out loads of damage while healing. These super soldiers literally shred through one player after another. What is this? I've been away for awhile. Can you explain it?

 

Please explain. Come on. Enlighten me. Educate me on the cool new self healing abilities of snipers that rival an actual healer.

 

Sounds like you need to learn to root, not burn off your hard stun when you first engage, and not throw your burst into their defensives. Lot of ranting that sounds like a L2P issue. Knowing your auto crits and lining up your burst correctly allows every burst class to drop a target's health dramatically. Also, read your gear set bonus...it also grants an auto crit that is on a cooldown timer. Know your timer and line it up when it's going to kill a target. Don't set it off when you know a target is popping dmg reduction/absorbtion.

Edited October 16, 2016 by frosttj

[Icykill_]

How many people should be on at 12pm on a weekday? 500? I've played since Beta. Your type is nothing new. Not for this game, MMOs of the past and certain not going into the future. No one is ignorant for not agreeing with your whining and expectations that a 5 year old MMO maintain launch level activity. The fact that your only recourse is personal attacks tells me right off the bat you have nothing put angst and personal frustration. When facts are considered over your baseless whining you implode. Again, nothing new.

 

There are people who simply do more damage and take less damage than other people. Period. Like one guy, same spec, can take off 75% of another guy's health in one attack. Guy two uses the same ability and barely makes a scratch. This isn't a rotation. This is a single ability opener backstab. Identical conditions (minus slight level variation). This was tested. No amount of class knowledge can account for this. It's the same crap as launch were you have these super soldier would could solo entire 8 man teams. OK, it's not THAT bad anymore, but it's still bad. Because people who try out PvP for the first time are ran off when this is their first impression. I remember once a few years ago I was able to take on 3 guys at once, taking down 9 in total - back to back groups of opposing players. I'm constantly seeing people with non-healing classes able to outheal 3+ other player's DPS without a healer in sight. Rather they are bad players or not the sheer numbers alone should make up for it. I've seen entire teams have to converge on a single node in Alderaan WZ, for instance, to kill a single operative. Who can dish out loads of damage while healing. These super soldiers literally shred through one player after another. What is this? I've been away for awhile. Can you explain it?

 

Please explain. Come on. Enlighten me. Educate me on the cool new self healing abilities of snipers that rival an actual healer.

 

From looking at all your threads on the forums.. yes I went through your statistics to see you have indeed played since launch... it looks like you haven't posted much about pvp in that whole time and what you have posted is mostly wrong... I would guess that you don't pvp often and have only started to because of the DvL event... so regardless of you playing since beta, you seem to be a newbie when it comes to pvp.

 

Most of what you are ranting about can be easily be explained and others have tried to explain it to you, except you seem not to be listening to people who are some of the more experienced pvpers still left in the game.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you if you won't listen to what people are trying to tell you.. Go and look up some other threads on why all of the things you are ranting about happen and stop arguing with people.

 

Edit : you know why non dedicated healers can out heal some dedicated healers?.. it's because those healers were terrible.

Why do some tanks out DPS some DPS classes?.. because of a number of reasons.. but number one on my list is there are tonnes of bad players who can't DPS. There is also an issue with people running tanks in DPS gear, but that's a whole other issue.

Why do some players smash people of the same spec, because they are much better players, they also probably keybind instead of mouse click.

Good players know when and how to use the right abilities and rotations/priorities in pvp,, other players learning or not as skilled don't.. that is a L2P issue..

I have never seen 2 players who have exactly the same skill lvl, one will always be better. The bigger the skill gap, the bigger the damage they will know how to inflict and also mitigate against... even a small percentage higher in skill can make a huge difference...

If you are also talking actual lvl difference in lowbies or mids, then that is another issue, no matter how close in lvl they are. One lvl higher can give another player a passive buff or an extra ability. But once again it's a L2P issue for most people,

Nearly everything you have complained about is a L2P issue. People have told you this. I have now explained it to you as well.

 

FYI, I often out heal 60% of healers on my DPS sorc/sage. Why? Because I have instant and castable self heal, I know when to self heal and I know when to disengage to find somewhere to cast self heal.. plus, 60% of healers are rubbish.

A typical match for me on my Lightning spec is 1mil+ DPS and 600k+ healing.. I've had matches where my heals were over 1 mil.. lots of healers these days have trouble cracking 600k... I always play as if I don't have a healer, but I'm always happy when I have a good one because then I can conctrate more on DPS... I'd actually prefer lower skilled healers to heal others than me.

I'm certainly not the best lightning spec Sorc on Harbinger, but I'm better than 99% of them. That is why I can destroy other Sorcs, even ones 20 Lvls higher than me.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

If everything is so easy and stats (not just expertise) are irrelevant than it shouldn't matter if everyone has the same default stats. The ranked crowd can have all their fancy sets, elitism and stat variation. You also need to understand that most people are not hardcore into PvP. The idea of gearing up may be entirely a non-entity to them. Now you can say that's their problem. Fine. But don't complain that PvP is dead when those types aren't queuing because of elite hardcore super solider curb stomping them because they aren't interesting in (or even are ignorant of) PvP gearing mechanics. They are the one who are going to potentially be filling the WZs if the queues were as fast as you guys would like.

 

If you or anyone needs help gearing, you can refer them to my thread on gearing. It's the sticky at the top of the forums page.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=795518

 

Regardless of pvp level, there is something there for every lvl.

 

As for all having the same stats or cookie cutter setups.. how boring would that be.. that is why pve people have a gear grind so that they can gear the way they want, so that it's fun... if they have to gear for pve, why would they think they wouldn't have to gear for pvp?

Plus Bio Devs always get the stats wrong. ie, you don't need to equipe accuracy to pvp gear. Most people swap it out. If we relied on the Devs, then the stats would be bad.. sure we'd all have them.. but why can't we have the same options as pve people to setup our gear the way we want.

Also people have different playing styles. Someone might prefer more alacrity or crit or more power or mastery over another stat. Not everyone plays at the same ping rate either. Mine is 180-300ms.. so I often sacrifice a little bit of some other stat for some alacrity.

 

Yes there is a problem with gearing up. Why? Because Bioware do not explain even the basic fundamentals or have a system in place to tell people they have the wrong gear on. This is why people like myself make threads to help people.

 

Regardless, pvp is dead / dying. If you were a hardcore pvper as you like to put it, you would know this and understand what the "hardcore" pvpers are trying to tell you and what we are complaining about.

 

FYI, do you really have no lvl 65 toons, especially as you've been playing since launch?

 

Edit : also I have to ask this, are you suggesting good players dumb down their play or skill level to give newbies a better experience? It's not our fault if we have higher skill and can global them. We all had to learn to play pvp too. We've all been through the same experience, we paid our dues, except back then it was 10 times harder than it is now. All the highest skilled players when most of us were learning have left the game. 99% of us can only dream of being as good as they were. The newbies these days have it easy in comparison, not just because the exteme pvp gods have left, it's because Bolster actually works now, gear "shouldn't" be an issue "if" people listen when people try to help them.

I won't lie to you and say newbies are all scrubs and should be good when they first start. No one expects that. But they should not expect us to take it easy on them. The only way you learn and get better is to keep playing against better players. That doesn't make us elitists, it makes us experienced.

I actually wish some of those players who were heaps better than me would come back so that I could grind against them to learn more, which is exactly how most of us learned. We jumped into the meat grinder.

Are there some pvp douche bag trolls out there? Sure, they're in every game. They will go out of their way to make the experience as unenjoyable for everyone involved, including me. Are there elitists out they're? Sure, they are the loud idiots who do not represent most of us pvpers. They think the louder they are, the better they are. Do you know how to shut them up? Get better and grind them into the ground like I try to do. Either that or put them on ignore, it's an awesome option to shut them up.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Icykill_

[Tharianus]

Waste of time to discuss with people who think they know everything better.

 

Yesterday (during my level process with my scoundrel heal) i queued for some tactical flashpoints:

 

1st time Kuat drive yards:

Commando DPS guy with healing cell - I tried to explain that he has got the wrong cell and he simply ignored me.

 

2nd time Kuat drive yards:

Vanguard DPS with Ion Cell - tried again to explain that he has got the wrong cell and that he would deal more dmg with another cell - result: he insulted me^^

 

So better not Talk with such overpowered guys =)

just enjoy to rape them during warzones till the game dies completely xD

Edited October 17, 2016 by Tharianus

[TBDNicodemus]

Waste of time to discuss with people who think they know everything better.

 

Yesterday (during my level process with my scoundrel heal) i queued for some tactical flashpoints:

 

1st time Kuat drive yards:

Commando DPS guy with healing cell - I tried to explain that he has got the wrong cell and he simply ignored me.

 

2nd time Kuat drive yards:

Vanguard DPS with Ion Cell - tried again to explain that he has got the wrong cell and that he would deal more dmg with another cell - result: he insulted me^^

 

So better not Talk with such overpowered guys =)

just enjoy to rape them during warzones till the game dies completely xD

 

and we wonder why the game is getting dumbed down... Personally I love this game, a few tweaks could be done, and game modes be added, maybe some open world improvements but in the end this game is > any other I've played.

[kissingaiur]

Then it shouldn't be a problem since there practically is no grind anyway, right? And the ranked crowd can still have their gear dependency and whatnot.

 

You say this game's grind is nothing compared to other games? Which games? Could you name some? I'm surprised other games have any kind of grind whatsoever in this day and age. Other than maybe EVE.

 

WoW PvP and Rift come to mind. Rift had a extremely terrible gear grind. It took you close to 2 months to get PvP gear from grinding warzones. The worst was at one time the best PvP weapons were the endgame raid bosses. If you didn't raid you werent able to get the best BiS in PvP.

 

Again, there is literally no grind for PvP gear in this game anymore since they decreased it in 3.0. There isn't any gear factor in pvp that is holding people away from doing ranked. Majority of the factors that keep players away from ranked is they are:

 

A) Casuals

B) Like only "objective" skill PvP

C) Lack full understanding of PvP in this game

D) Find rank too "hardcore" and toxic

 

It has literally nothing to do with gear. The only differences between normal PvP gear and "ranked" PvP gear is a couple percentages that 95% of the players can't even utilize the effectiveness of. Ranked PvP gear in my opinion, shouldn't even be in the game anymore because its just left over content pre 3.0. Back in the day when "ranked gear" was hard to get because the easiest way to get it was by doing ranked or converting a crap load of coms.

Edited October 17, 2016 by kissingaiur

[EnzoForMe]

A lot has been covered in this thread, here's an observation that I've had for a couple years now that causes me to lean towards the OP's camp.

 

In addition to swtor, I play an RTS that's been out for over 10 years. During my time with that game, I've seen a lot of incredibly skilled players. What stands out to me the most, though, is that throughout the years, players have become better. This game has an "expert" tag for the best players, and many of the experts have gone on to be top 50 in sc2. Competition is kept alive and well with global cash tournaments, and a community attitude of improvement and elitism. When I say elitism, I mean a community that plays for fun and recognizes it's just a video game, but at the same time rejects mediocrity and rewards skill and innovation. It's also a community that does a far better job teaching new players at the same time. At any rate, Experts from 2002 wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed and advanced strategies of today's experts. In other words, current experts learned from the past ones, and evolved/advanced the game and took it to a higher level.

 

The exact opposite is true for swtor, and it's one of the major reasons I feel pvp started out strong and diminished over time. For whatever reason, the players who were best 3-4 years ago are still top, and new ones haven't come in and disrupted the hierarchy. The best players I play with/against in group ranked were apart of the 8v8 ranked scene. The skilled players I see in regs are the same names I've seen for years. For the life of me, I don't understand it. MMO pvp is vastly simpler than RTS pvp, and with updates to the meta by BW each patch, new ways of playing should emerge.

 

For all the bickering about balance, something I learned in the RTS world is balance doesn't come into play until you reach the top ladders of competition. If you're doing 1000 dps in a game and not guarding, the class you play, the class they play, what map it is, etc. are totally irrelevant. It's entirely an issue of class mechanics, positioning, and poor GCD utilization/ decision making that can't be solved by a patch.

 

Ignoring support from bioware (again, this RTS has been out for 10 years and gone 9 without a patch) there's no reason why someone who joins swtor in 2016 can't be a top reg player in 3-4 months and start to think about ranked. I could point to theories I have- mechanical ones like lack of GCD utilization or thematic ones like an overall pvp community that is far more populist than it is elitist with its ridiculous anti-premade threads, but the full explanation for this enigma is a mystery to me.

Edited October 17, 2016 by EnzoForMe

[Dayshadow]

Sounds like you need to learn to root, not burn off your hard stun when you first engage, and not throw your burst into their defensives. Lot of ranting that sounds like a L2P issue. Knowing your auto crits and lining up your burst correctly allows every burst class to drop a target's health dramatically. Also, read your gear set bonus...it also grants an auto crit that is on a cooldown timer. Know your timer and line it up when it's going to kill a target. Don't set it off when you know a target is popping dmg reduction/absorbtion.

 

This has nothing to do with me. How do you know I'm not the person doing the higher amount of damage. I've certainly been in both situations in WZs, but that's clearly off subject if you actually bothered to read what I posted instead of going into excuse/defensive mode. Did you even read the part about the two backstab openers? Again, has nothing to do with rotations. Just a single attack under identical controlled circumstances. The only difference is one player can do a lot more damage than another. Your entire reply is moot.

[Dayshadow]

From looking at all your threads on the forums.. yes I went through your statistics to see you have indeed played since launch... it looks like you haven't posted much about pvp in that whole time and what you have posted is mostly wrong... I would guess that you don't pvp often and have only started to because of the DvL event... so regardless of you playing since beta, you seem to be a newbie when it comes to pvp.

 

Most of what you are ranting about can be easily be explained and others have tried to explain it to you, except you seem not to be listening to people who are some of the more experienced pvpers still left in the game.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you if you won't listen to what people are trying to tell you.. Go and look up some other threads on why all of the things you are ranting about happen and stop arguing with people.

 

Edit : you know why non dedicated healers can out heal some dedicated healers?.. it's because those healers were terrible.

Why do some tanks out DPS some DPS classes?.. because of a number of reasons.. but number one on my list is there are tonnes of bad players who can't DPS. There is also an issue with people running tanks in DPS gear, but that's a whole other issue.

Why do some players smash people of the same spec, because they are much better players, they also probably keybind instead of mouse click.

Good players know when and how to use the right abilities and rotations/priorities in pvp,, other players learning or not as skilled don't.. that is a L2P issue..

I have never seen 2 players who have exactly the same skill lvl, one will always be better. The bigger the skill gap, the bigger the damage they will know how to inflict and also mitigate against... even a small percentage higher in skill can make a huge difference...

If you are also talking actual lvl difference in lowbies or mids, then that is another issue, no matter how close in lvl they are. One lvl higher can give another player a passive buff or an extra ability. But once again it's a L2P issue for most people,

Nearly everything you have complained about is a L2P issue. People have told you this. I have now explained it to you as well.

 

FYI, I often out heal 60% of healers on my DPS sorc/sage. Why? Because I have instant and castable self heal, I know when to self heal and I know when to disengage to find somewhere to cast self heal.. plus, 60% of healers are rubbish.

A typical match for me on my Lightning spec is 1mil+ DPS and 600k+ healing.. I've had matches where my heals were over 1 mil.. lots of healers these days have trouble cracking 600k... I always play as if I don't have a healer, but I'm always happy when I have a good one because then I can conctrate more on DPS... I'd actually prefer lower skilled healers to heal others than me.

I'm certainly not the best lightning spec Sorc on Harbinger, but I'm better than 99% of them. That is why I can destroy other Sorcs, even ones 20 Lvls higher than me.

 

Nope, been PvPing since beta too. I could give two cents about DvL. And stop dictating my experience when my comments don't fit your narrative. How about this? You haven't played any PvP ever before a week ago. How do I know this? You said something I disagree with.

 

Now I have started playing the game again recently. Like a month or so ago. I'm recording the story/gameplay and editing it into an episode series. I don't even care about anything outside the vanilla game atm. But I do still PvP.

 

If your only response is ad hominems and other nonsense don't bother to reply. You cannot explain certain people being able to simply do significantly more damage than another. Not in a game that doesn't have seriously flawed programming. Again, not talking about rotations. Just straight up doing more damage given identical individual ability use and circumstances. If you bothered to actually read what was posted you wouldn't be saying L2P, making the assumption that I am necessarily the one on the receiving end in this scenario or that I'm talking about rotations.

 

A sniper healing at the level or better than a heal specced sorc is not the same as a DPS sorc (who still at least has actual healing abilities on their hotbar) out-healing a crappy heal specced sorc. Again, this has nothing to do with who uses what abilities properly. You're making up your own strawman to argue against. I even posted at one point about taking on 9 people straight with no healer. Sorry, telling those players to L2P is b.s. and any rational person would acknowledge this. But I guess you're the kind of person who would just pat yourself on the back and tell yourself how good you are. Something is definitely off with this games bolster mechanic and how stats function in PvP.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

If you or anyone needs help gearing, you can refer them to my thread on gearing. It's the sticky at the top of the forums page.

 

Yes there is a problem with gearing up. Why? Because Bioware do not explain even the basic fundamentals or have a system in place to tell people they have the wrong gear on. This is why people like myself make threads to help people.

 

What if the people you want to join WZs don't want to gear up? What if they just want to have fun and being able to fairly compete? No prep? No specialized gear? They just PvE and get whatever they get from drops and then they'll PvP when they want to have some WZ fun. Because you can't say they just need to get with the program. They aren't the ones complaining. They will just not queue. It's their way or they hit the highway. It's the PvP crowd who whines about it, not the guys who gave up on it. If PvP is going to be more mainstream it's going to have to accommodate the casuals. Not the other way around. This is the direction gaming is going toward. Instant gratification. Rather you like it or not.

 

What really is the point in having to gear up if it's so easy. Why not just do away with it and make it fair across the board for anyone regardless of gear or intelligence? That's all I'm saying. You can't fix stupid people who refuse to learn; players in the wrong stances, not reading the ability/spec tree descriptions and whatnot will still underperform. I think if people new to PvP weren't getting curb stomped they'd stick around longer. When I ask in fleet this is typically the reason people who don't PvP say is the reason they don't bother; and I paraphrase, "It's not fun having no chance and just being fodder for the elite". Maybe I'm not hardcore enough because Ebon Hawk queues are fast enough for me, but there are a lot of potential PvPers in the cantina writing novels in chat (which is their version of RPing, I guess) who could be writing novels in the WZ starting area:)

Edited October 19, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Razortron]

This mmo will die when a better mmo comes along! But wait nobody is making mmo games anymore so im afraid its this or WoW !

[EnzoForMe]

What if the people you want to join WZs don't want to gear up? What if they just want to have fun and being able to fairly compete? No prep? No specialized gear? They just PvE and get whatever they get from drops and then they'll PvP when they want to have some WZ fun. Because you can't say they just need to get with the program. They aren't the ones complaining. They will just not queue. It's their way or they hit the highway. It's the PvP crowd who whines about it, not the guys who gave up on it. If PvP is going to be more mainstream it's going to have to accommodate the casuals. Not the other way around. This is the direction gaming is going toward. Instant gratification. Rather you like it or not.

 

What really is the point in having to gear up if it's so easy. Why not just do away with it and make it fair across the board for anyone regardless of gear or intelligence? That's all I'm saying. You can't fix stupid people who refuse to learn; players in the wrong stances, not reading the ability/spec tree descriptions and whatnot will still underperform. I think if people new to PvP weren't getting curb stomped they'd stick around longer. When I ask in fleet this is typically the reason people who don't PvP say is the reason they don't bother; and I paraphrase, "It's not fun having no chance and just being fodder for the elite". Maybe I'm not hardcore enough because Ebon Hawk queues are fast enough for me, but there are a lot of potential PvPers in the cantina writing novels in chat (which is their version of RPing, I guess) who could be writing novels in the WZ starting area:)

 

I just do operations for fun, give me optimized 224 gear cuz I can't compete and we should be more inclusive.

 

Gear is a smaller factor in pvp than most will accept. I could play with 0 expertise and still outperform 95% of the people who queue for regs. I've done it in the past. The ramp up to a full pvp set is short, but it exists so pve gear doesn't trump pvp gear. But in 5.0 that's changing, lol, because the lowest common denominator needs more hand holding.

 

This game had a much bigger population from 1.0-2.0 and I wouldn't describe the pvp or pve communities as "casual". You had great ranked teams and heavy competition for operation server first clears. Don't take Bioware's unimaginative business plan for this game in 2016 and extrapolate some larger commentary about "casual" being better and more lucrative for gaming.

Edited October 19, 2016 by EnzoForMe

[Dayshadow]

I just do operations for fun, give me optimized 224 gear cuz I can't compete and we should be more inclusive.

 

Gear is a smaller factor in pvp than most will accept. I could play with 0 expertise and still outperform 95% of the people who queue for regs. I've done it in the past. The ramp up to a full pvp set is short, but it exists so pve gear doesn't trump pvp gear. But in 5.0 that's changing, lol, because the lowest common denominator needs more hand holding.

 

This game had a much bigger population from 1.0-2.0 and I wouldn't describe the pvp or pve communities as "casual". You had great ranked teams and heavy competition for operation server first clears. Don't take Bioware's unimaginative business plan for this game in 2016 and extrapolate some larger commentary about "casual" being better and more lucrative for gaming.

 

Are Operations having participation problems. Or PvE in general? I don't see them whining so much. They whine, but about content. Not participation. I never said the PvP community were casuals. I said the opposite actually. It's the casuals you're going to have to court if you want faster queues. The casuals are the PvE majority who are not queuing for PvP atm.

 

The entire point went right over your head, didn't it? Doesn't matter how you feel about it. Make all the snide condescending remarks you want, but you're either going to give those casuals that hand to hold or they aren't participating. Period. Again, I cannot reiterate this enough, YOU want THEM. Not the other way around. They have all the cards. You say how great you are and how you trounce them with 0 expertise. Great! So it shouldn't matter one bit to you if all that stuff was gone. You'd still kick butt, right?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Dayshadow

[mfourcustom]

Are Operations having participation problems. Or PvE in general? I don't see them whining so much. They whine, but about content. Not participation. I never said the PvP community were casuals. I said the opposite actually. It's the casuals you're going to have to court if you want faster queues. The casuals are the PvE majority who are not queuing for PvP atm.

 

The entire point went right over your head, didn't it? Doesn't matter how you feel about it. Make all the snide condescending remarks you want, but you're either going to give those casuals that hand to hold or they aren't participating. Period. Again, I cannot reiterate this enough, YOU want THEM. Not the other way around. They have all the cards. You say how great you are and how you trounce them with 0 expertise. Great! So it shouldn't matter one bit to you if all that stuff was gone. You'd still kick butt, right?

 

 

Your sig is so lul I wish I was as dope as you and could have a sig like that...

[Dayshadow]

This mmo will die when a better mmo comes along! But wait nobody is making mmo games anymore so im afraid its this or WoW !

 

Plenty of better, original MMOs have come along.... and failed miserably. Probably because the companies don't have the financial support to market them properly. The big money is on WoW clones. The days of Everquest-type MMOs are over. This game barely counts as an MMO. It's a glorified single-player game.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Dayshadow]

Your sig is so lul I wish I was as dope as you and could have a sig like that...

 

Take a time machine back to pre-launch when these were all the rave. Haven't changed it since.

[Lundorff]

The entire point went right over your head, didn't it? Doesn't matter how you feel about it. Make all the snide condescending remarks you want, but you're either going to give those casuals that hand to hold or they aren't participating. Period. Again, I cannot reiterate this enough, YOU want THEM. Not the other way around. They have all the cards. You say how great you are and how you trounce them with 0 expertise. Great! So it shouldn't matter one bit to you if all that stuff was gone. You'd still kick butt, right?

 

But couldn't this still end up as a rather traumatic experience for an inexperienced PvE-player? Once this system is well underway, many PvP-players (of those that are left) will eventually have acquired some neat gear, and when Joe NewPlayer decides to check out PvP on his new level 70 character he is in for a shock.

 

The optimal solution for PvP is no gear. Ignore gear completely and give all mirror advanced classes the exact same stats (i.e. a tank should not have the same stats as, say, an operative). Then at least gear discrepancies would no longer be an issue. Alas, that is clearly not the approach BW have taken. I fully expect PVP to become extremely unbalanced when 5.0 hits.

[EnzoForMe]

Are Operations having participation problems. Or PvE in general? I don't see them whining so much. They whine, but about content. Not participation. I never said the PvP community were casuals. I said the opposite actually. It's the casuals you're going to have to court if you want faster queues. The casuals are the PvE majority who are not queuing for PvP atm.

 

The entire point went right over your head, didn't it? Doesn't matter how you feel about it. Make all the snide condescending remarks you want, but you're either going to give those casuals that hand to hold or they aren't participating. Period. Again, I cannot reiterate this enough, YOU want THEM. Not the other way around. They have all the cards. You say how great you are and how you trounce them with 0 expertise. Great! So it shouldn't matter one bit to you if all that stuff was gone. You'd still kick butt, right?

 

Stop making assumptions, I don't want just anyone to queue for pvp- that diminishes quality. That's your narrative and the misguided dev team,, not mine. Regs pop on harb around the clock with minimal waits, we have fine participation at that level. I want more participation in ranked, and more incentive for players to want to improve their game and participate. Casuals in this game never needed this level of hand holding before to transition into being good at pvp, anyone who can't put minimal effort will always be useless.

 

Don't mistake me- I don't want a large gear ramp up for pvp. In many ways, 5.0 is going to make the problem worse.

 

Your "point" is straightforward and easy to understand. My point was if pve'rs don't have to gear for pvp, I shouldn't have to put effort into the inverse either. Strip away your assumption that I want just anyone to queue up for pvp and the logic is reciprocal. And FYI< the competitive operations community has been decimated- so yes, they are having participation problems.

Edited October 19, 2016 by EnzoForMe

[Icykill_]

Well the point is probably going to be proven when 5.0 launches with RNG boxes to gear up in pvp.. I've heard from lots of pvpers that they will be leaving the game if this goes ahead.. I've already noticed quite a few leave.. I'm not even sure I'll stick around either

When the majority of your pvp community leaves... then pvp will well and truely be dead... because any "non" pvpers who pvp occassionally won't be able to keep pops happening