[spoilers] Torian questions...

[Cayoimeah]

Let me start my admitting it's possible these questions are not answered through canon sources. If that's true, I would still enjoy hearing other people's ideas on what they think happened!

 

I searched a bit to see if I could find any kind of definitive answer to this question with no luck so far. I was curious what happened to Torian's Mother? I can't find the reference now, but we know from the conversation with Jicoln that he believed that Torian was killed along with all of his other clan members for his actions.

 

I wondered if she was killed as part of the culling of Clan Cadera--and if she was why did Mand'alor spare Torian? I don't think I've seen anything that really explains it other than perhaps bending to the ideal of this tenet:

 

Gar taldin ni jaonyc; gar sa buir, ori'wadaas'la. - "Nobody cares who your father was, only the father you'll be."

 

I tend to think that his Mother WAS killed, since if I understand it correctly he was adopted into Clan Ordo where he would have been raised.

 

I know, thinking too deeply about things but that's my personality haha I just love the details!

 

Would love to hear what others think!!

 

*bonus* I was thinking about the option you have to freeze Jicoln instead of killing him yourself or allowing Torian to kill him. Has anyone taken that option before? I was wondering what actually happens if you do. I couldn't find any reference videos or anything of that nature. It's an interesting thought that if he was frozen then after Mandalore the Vindicated was killed where and who has his body?

 

I muse. I know haha

[Analyst]

Gar taldin ni jaonyc; gar sa buir, ori'wadaas'la. - "Nobody cares who your father was, only the father you'll be."

One correction - there is no "father" here. The word "buir" in Mando'a actually means "parent", without distinction, and is translated according to context. Here it is "father", because all the Torian's introduction centers around his father.

About the mother - I assumed that she deceased in the initial mutiny, or, maybe, even before that. Mandalorian life is not safe, as you know.

 

*bonus* I was thinking about the option you have to freeze Jicoln instead of killing him yourself or allowing Torian to kill him. Has anyone taken that option before? I was wondering what actually happens if you do. I couldn't find any reference videos or anything of that nature. It's an interesting thought that if he was frozen then after Mandalore the Vindicated was killed where and who has his body?

The result is not much different. Mandalore sends you a letter later about how he stares at frozen face of Jicoln and cannot believe it. After Artus' death the frozen Cadera was, perhaps, destroyed, or simply neglected. Who needs them, anyway? Not Zakuulans.

[Cayoimeah]

One correction - there is no "father" here. The word "buir" in Mando'a actually means "parent", without distinction, and is translated according to context. Here it is "father", because all the Torian's introduction centers around his father.

 

I struggled a bit with this in the interpretation, knowing that the language does not specify any gender to words, and settled on "father" based on a post on Karen Traviss' Goodreads where she used the term "father" and not "parent"--made me think that the connection wasn't specific to Torian's dialogue but rather a "proverb" that unlike most of the traditional meanings, that perhaps this one spoke very specifically of fathers...perhaps since most cultures tend to universally place a greater importance on the maternal influence?

 

About the mother - I assumed that she deceased in the initial mutiny, or, maybe, even before that. Mandalorian life is not safe, as you know.

 

I know the dialogue differs based on choices you make. This is what I had:

 

 

 

J: You two are good. Real good. Even Artus never gave me this much of a run.

 

T: His name is Mandalore.

 

J: I know what he calls himself boy I was there

 

BH: Torian cool it. this isn't the time to lose your head.

 

J: Torian? No....you can't be.

 

J: Artus swore he'd slaughter my boy at his mother's breast. Swore it when he left me here.

 

T: Sometimes I wish he had.

 

J: It's really you. Artus knows how to put the crowning irony on a vengdetta.

 

BH: Torian is doing this for himself.

 

J: But does he know why?

 

T: You stripped our clan of its honor. Today, I'm taking it back!

 

J: Ah, ah. Just do it.

 

Fight.

 

T: Liser gar su jorhaa'ir haar joha, dar'manda? Ib'tuur gar dar'buir balyc.

(Can you still speak the language dar'manda? Today you no longer have a son/child.)

 

J: "Me'ven? Ner ad? Oyayc? I have a last request hunter. I want a moment to speak with my-- my son."

(What? My child/son? Alive?)

 

BH: I can spare a few minutes. I'll be watching.

 

J: You've got no business carrying your name like a mark of shame.

 

J: I fought a righteous battle. You'll never get me to admit otherwise

 

T: I understand.

 

J: Take my head to Mandalore if you're gonna. I'm tired.

 

BH: This is your call to make, kid.

 

T: I'm sorry.

 

J: Gar taldin ni jaonyc, gar sa buir, ori'wadaas'la.

(Nobody cares who your father was, only the father you'll be.)

 

T: I'll do our name proud.

 

Shoots.

 

T: That...wasn't what I expected

 

BH: You seem shook up. What'd he say to you?

 

T: Nothing I didn't already know. Just differently told. I want to be alone. It's been an honor.

 

 

 

Given that I felt like it was

 

 

 

pretty heavily implied that Torian's mother was still living when Artus left Jicoln. The implication that Artus intended to kill not only his wife but also his son made me consider there was perhaps a time and place the decision was made. If Artus allowed Torian to live, is it possible his mother was also spared but exiled.

 

So many questions haha

 

 

The result is not much different. Mandalore sends you a letter later about how he stares at frozen face of Jicoln and cannot believe it. After Artus' death the frozen Cadera was, perhaps, destroyed, or simply neglected. Who needs them, anyway? Not Zakuulans.

 

Thank you for this insight! It was a long unanswered question of mine! The letter makes sense! It's an interesting concept to imagine that at some point or another Jicoln could potentially resurface. Who knows what he might end up being at that point.

 

I'm master of what ifs haha

 

Thanks again for your insights!

Edited June 14, 2016 by Cayoimeah

[Celise]

It was clearly shown that Clan Cadera was run into the ground because of Jicoln Cadera, matters were made worse when Artus Lok the leader of the Mandalorians before the eternal empire invaded had Jicoln on the black list.

 

It was all started because several clans in the Mandalorians decided to join the republic, mostly because of nostalgic reasons of something that happened 300 years ago with the Neo-Crusaders. when the Neo-Crusaders were stopped by the Republic, the Mandalorians called it a great battle with a lot of honor in it for both sides, some of the Mandalorians even supported the republic after the conflict, one of which was from Clan Ordo.

 

Because of this political shift and because it was a dangerous idea, Artus decided to wipe them out because they became a threat during an uprising. Clans Ordo, Cadera, Itera and Kelborn were almost all but destroyed by Artus and his forces.

 

It was further reinforced during chapter 14 when Shae mentioned that Clan Cadera survived another battle, which implied that Torian is the only member of clan Cadera to be living and carrying the clan with him.

 

The chances are that Torian's family was almost completely killed off during or after the attempted uprising and response from Artus Lok.

 

The event is called the Cruasder's schism.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Celise

[Analyst]

Are you sure about Ordo? Clan Ordo is still among the Mandalorians, and Torian - after Jicoln's schism - was a good friend with one of them.

[Cayoimeah]

some of the Mandalorians even supported the republic after the conflict, one of which was from Clan Ordo.

 

I was also under the impression, not just from this game but from what I had read elsewhere, that Clan Ordo had regained their favor and were accepted back into the Mandalorian folds?

 

By the way, LOVE to talk about this kind of information of historical significance to the stories! Thank you!

[Phyreblade]

Start with Canderous Ordo's story, maybe. Ordo fought with the Neo-Crusaders during the Mandalorian Wars. Until they were defeated by Revan. After that, he went on to work as a mercenary, only later encountering Revan on Taris after he'd lost his memory. They fought together, and Canderous became Revan's friend. So much that the two went on to recover Mandalore's Mask together, so that Ordo was eventually able to take on the role of Mandalore himself; effectively making the Clans far more pro-Republic than they'd ever been before.

 

Years later, when Mandalore the Vindicated (Artus Lok) took leadership, clans Cadera, Ordo, Itera, and Kelborn argued that the Clans should ally themselves with the Republic. Partly from the tradition set down by Canderous years earlier. And partly because it was the Empire that set a puppet Mandalore in place to try controlling the Clans; a puppet that the Vindicated killed in order to take over leadership. So the Clans were largely leery of remaining aligned with the Empire.

 

Jicoln Cadera was the one who lead the Schism into outright conflict, though. He actually battled with Artus Lok. It's hinted in conversation in-game that Artus Lok and Jicoln Cadera were friends beforehand, which might account for how bitterly Artus Lok eventually responded. Or maybe it's just because Jicoln was the leader of the revolt. Regardless, when Jicoln Cadera was defeated it was his Clan that was virtually wiped out; the adults were killed while the children were parceled out for adoption among the other Clans. The other clans, including Ordo, were accepted back by the Mandalore.

 

Torian's mother was likely killed in the immediate aftermath. It's interesting that Torian never gave up the name Cadera, however. He did grow up to be fiercely loyal to Mandalore the Vindicated, fighting to make up for the shame his father's revolt brought to their Clan. Torian also succeeded apparently. Since Clan Cadera has been recognized and accepted back into the Clans under Torian's own leadership by the time we find him on Darvannis.

 

That being said the Clan is still very small, according to Torian. Chances are he can call on a sizeable number of troops, or warriors that would rally to his call. But it's never clarified just how many warriors follow him. Still, the leader of a Clan in terms of rank is perhaps equal to a General if we're talking military ranks, at least when they're in a battle or conflict of some sort. That explains why Torian is involved in war table discussions with Mandalore herself.

 

I do like how Torian's presented as being more mature by the time he's on Darvannis; he's gained experience enough to provide his own thoughts and consideration of the battle. But his basic personality remains very much Mandalorian and individual. He's still my favorite companion in the game, lol.

[Cayoimeah]

Torian's mother was likely killed in the immediate aftermath. It's interesting that Torian never gave up the name Cadera, however. He did grow up to be fiercely loyal to Mandalore the Vindicated, fighting to make up for the shame his father's revolt brought to their Clan. Torian also succeeded apparently. Since Clan Cadera has been recognized and accepted back into the Clans under Torian's own leadership by the time we find him on Darvannis.

 

I think she was also killed as part of the culling of Clan Cadera. I hadn't seen the practice mentioned of them sparing children, but now that I have considered it, that seems likely--given the fact that they hold to the whole "not your father, but you" tenet of thinking. In this, I suppose the point of confusion comes as you said later which is that Torian kept the name "Cadera" instead of absorbing into the clan he was adopted into and becoming "Ordo". If that were the case, his family tree wouldn't be questioned really at all. Generally, most people would not ask where they was from I would think.

 

That being said the Clan is still very small, according to Torian. Chances are he can call on a sizeable number of troops, or warriors that would rally to his call. But it's never clarified just how many warriors follow him. Still, the leader of a Clan in terms of rank is perhaps equal to a General if we're talking military ranks, at least when they're in a battle or conflict of some sort. That explains why Torian is involved in war table discussions with Mandalore herself.

 

I do like how Torian's presented as being more mature by the time he's on Darvannis; he's gained experience enough to provide his own thoughts and consideration of the battle. But his basic personality remains very much Mandalorian and individual. He's still my favorite companion in the game, lol.

 

I appreciated the fact that the five years had seen Torian grow up to be able to be in command, in fact to have the CONFIDENCE to be in a position of leadership, and not just led around by his guilt and shame. I had also wondered about him clearly being an important part of planning and strategy--as I guess I had just continued to headcanon that he was still the only member of his clan (apart from hiss missing Riduur). That said, if he still did not have any other followers at this point, I can see where he would be an amazing asset to Mandalore even as a "one man clan"--since he was driven by honor and passion and not just a lust for domination, I think he would bring a certain temperment that was lacking in others. That said, it's quite possible that what you have said is truth and that he has become a leader and that others do see the greatness in him and want to follow him. That would certainly make sense! BUT I like to think

 

 

...that the affirmation that Shae gave them when your character and Torian return from the factory by saying "Clan Cadera survives another battle." (and earlier she made reference to them "living up to their Clan". It made me feel like THEY were Clan Cadera. But again, it's headcanon for me, not proven by anything other than the way I heard it happen in my mind lol