Broken Companions

[Cedia]

Both companions and the story recognized my Mandalorian as Mandalorian even with the Resol'nare conversation missing. Torian gets other references to it, all of which occurred normally including getting the Mandalorian versions of the 'trouble' and final romance conversations. Even the RotHC mention happened normally, even though the opening cinematic was busted for her in a different way (it behaved as if Mako was her only companion). All SoR and KotFE references to her being Mandalorian worked too. In terms of the romance, she got all the vanilla letters, the mention in the SoR intro, the option to tell Valkorion about it (twice) in chapter two, and the KotFE letter just fine.

 

If there's a problem with flags, it's specifically the two missing conversations. It's more likely that those conversations were removed, either because they were lost in the shuffle when BioWare changed the order and triggers around or they were deliberately removed for some reason. I'm hoping that they just got lost when things got rearranged and BioWare can put them back in without much fuss but I'm not holding my breath either.

 

Thank you, this gives me a bit of hope. I've taken three characters through "A Dream of Empire" and none of them have been able to tell Valkorian about their romances. The last one was about a week ago.

[leviathanmirror]

Thank you, this gives me a bit of hope. I've taken three characters through "A Dream of Empire" and none of them have been able to tell Valkorian about their romances. The last one was about a week ago.

 

I'm sorry. That sounds incredibly frustrating.

 

I've only taken two characters with vanilla romances through KotFE and neither had problems. They were both made after 4.0 was released. Maybe that makes it less likely to happen?

[Cedia]

I'm sorry. That sounds incredibly frustrating.

 

I've only taken two characters with vanilla romances through KotFE and neither had problems. They were both made after 4.0 was released. Maybe that makes it less likely to happen?

 

Only one of these characters was created pre 4.0. The Bounty Hunter is my favorite, so I'm just hoping that this new one isn't going to be bugged like the first one.

[MishaCantu]

Only one of these characters was created pre 4.0. The Bounty Hunter is my favorite, so I'm just hoping that this new one isn't going to be bugged like the first one.

 

I just took a female bounty hunter through the vanilla story with romanced Torian and am kicking myself 12 different ways right now. While I was on Belsavis, the icon popped up over Torian that he wanted to talk to me on the ship but I ignored it and continued on until the end of Belsavis where he gets kidnapped. I figured the conversation flag would still be there after I rescued him. It was not and I will never know if that was the Resol'nare conversation or not unless I roll another BH and play through again, this time going to the ship as soon as that icon pops up, IF it pops up. Point being, any time Torian wants to talk, stop what you are doing and go talk to him, even if you have to leave a planet and go back.

 

I have noticed that the conversation icon displays sometimes even when there is no conversation to be had so that may have been the case here also.

 

However, I DID get the tingular/dinner date convo as well as the marriage proposal from Torian, so at least that worked.

[Shambolic]

Both companions and the story recognized my Mandalorian as Mandalorian even with the Resol'nare conversation missing. Torian gets other references to it, all of which occurred normally including getting the Mandalorian versions of the 'trouble' and final romance conversations. Even the RotHC mention happened normally, even though the opening cinematic was busted for her in a different way (it behaved as if Mako was her only companion). All SoR and KotFE references to her being Mandalorian worked too. In terms of the romance, she got all the vanilla letters, the mention in the SoR intro, the option to tell Valkorion about it (twice) in chapter two, and the KotFE letter just fine.

 

My BH also flagged as Mando for the rest of the class story (referred to by NPCs as "Mandalorian," saying "we" when referring to other Mandos, etc). I didn't know there was a non-Mando version of the 'trouble' convo, but I'm going to assume I got that one as well--even though I got "shooting lessons" instead of "Mando'a lessons." I had the same Mako-only cinematic going into RotHC, and also wasn't aware there was a different one. I wonder if it has to do with affection? Mako was still my highest affection companion going into RotHC (level 30).

 

I have yet to see if my romance gets recognized in KOTFE, since I experienced the missing completion bug for finishing Chapter 3, and I didn't want to start SoR or KotFE without having it. I did get all 3 of his letters while doing Ilum, indicating that the romance is on track.

 

If there's a problem with flags, it's specifically the two missing conversations. It's more likely that those conversations were removed, either because they were lost in the shuffle when BioWare changed the order and triggers around or they were deliberately removed for some reason. I'm hoping that they just got lost when things got rearranged and BioWare can put them back in without much fuss but I'm not holding my breath either.

 

I stick with my missing trigger post-Belsavis theory. I no longer believe that their exclusion has anything to do with the player's choice regarding being a Mandalorian, however it seems that what option you choose in the missing Resol'nare conversation ("Ways of the Warrior") affects which FTB conversation ("The Next Step") you get later in the story.

[Cedia]

I wonder if the missing conversations show up if you talk to him as soon as his flag pops up on Belsavis.

 

I'm currently on Alderaan, but if they don't fix it with tomorrow's patch, I may just say screw it and continue, since it will most likely take them at least a year to fix this (because we're only now getting the "human" hairstyles/colors for other races).

[Shambolic]

I just took a female bounty hunter through the vanilla story with romanced Torian and am kicking myself 12 different ways right now. While I was on Belsavis, the icon popped up over Torian that he wanted to talk to me on the ship but I ignored it and continued on until the end of Belsavis where he gets kidnapped. I figured the conversation flag would still be there after I rescued him. It was not and I will never know if that was the Resol'nare conversation or not unless I roll another BH and play through again, this time going to the ship as soon as that icon pops up, IF it pops up. Point being, any time Torian wants to talk, stop what you are doing and go talk to him, even if you have to leave a planet and go back.

 

I have noticed that the conversation icon displays sometimes even when there is no conversation to be had so that may have been the case here also.

 

I have recordings of my BH's entire Class Quest on Belsavis (and the latter half of the planetary story arc), and in none of them does Torian indicate he wants to speak to me on the ship. However, I remember having a conversation icon appear and disappear on Vector in a similar way on Voss and I only caught it because I was looking forward to that particular convo. I was heartbroken when the icon disappeared, thinking it might have bugged--but lo and behold, when I returned to my ship, Vector's convo still procced. I haven't finished my IA because of the bug, but everything with Vector is on track.

 

Since I'm done with Torian's romance in its current incarnation, here is the order of the quests:

 

1: "Unburdened" - After Taris

2: "Looking to the Future" - After Quesh

3: "Talking Shop" - Beginning of Hoth

4: "War Stories" - Mid-Hoth

5: "Point Blank" - Right before going to the Star Cluster Casino on Nar Shaddaa (Ch. 2 Conclusion)

6: "Battle Brothers" - Chapter 3 Introduction, before meeting Darth Tormen ("Failure To Communicate class quest)

7: "Hunting Party" - Chapter 3 Introduction, after meeting Darth Tormen (Pre-Belsavis, "The Ferryman" class quest)

8: "Home Cooking" - Right before Belsavis ("A Flicker of Hope" class quest, before disembarking on Belsavis)

9: "Kinship" - Early Voss

10: "Mandalorian Iron" - After Voss

11: "Brothers in Arms" - After the Tyrant ("Thus, Always to Tyrants") quest, pre-Corellia

12: "The Next Step" - Mid-Corellia

13: "Bound By Blood" - After Corellia

14: "Family Commitments" -After finishing "Number One With a Bullet" (BH Chapter 3 completion)

 

There seems to be a gap between the beginning of Chapter 3 and early Voss. Further proving my point is the fact that Mako's "Practice Makes Perfect" and Skadge's "First Impressions" quest happen right after Belsavis (and Torian's abduction)--clearly, some quests are supposed to trigger here. Moreover, Gault's "Exes and Ohs" quest, Blizz's "Keepsakes" quest, and Skadge's "Back in Black" all occur after Torian and I safely return to the ship ("No Strings Attached"), pre-Voss. Torian has NO conversation for almost two whole story arcs (though admittedly, he is the primary focus of "No Strings Attached").

 

Got 2 letters in 24 hours during Ilum ("Hunting Trip" and "Admission") and then the last one a day or so later.

 

As an aside, If they placed all marriages after Chapter 3's conclusion now, all new Sith Warriors romancing Quinn are going to be really, really confused.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Shambolic

[CloudCastle]

As an aside, If they placed all marriages after Chapter 3's conclusion now, all new Sith Warriors romancing Quinn are going to be really, really confused.

 

Just curious, why would this make it more confusing? Back in the day, I purposefully held off on the bulk of Quinn's conversations until after Corellia. I thought his story made a lot more sense that way, and I believe that most of the his romance conversations should have been gated behind Corellia in the first place. It would have solved the disaster that occurs if you marry Quinn before the "incident."

[leviathanmirror]

From a thread I made trying to figure out what the trigger for the two different Makeb cinematics is (the likely culprit is the broken class quests that they're fixing in 4.5, since the alternate cinematic with just Mako appears to be for people who didn't finish their class quest and wouldn't have all their companions):

 

I started Makeb on my newest Bounty Hunter yesterday and got a different opening cinematic than I did with my first two BHs (one of which I did Makeb on earlier this month). In the usual cinematic, Gault and Blizz are present and Gault shows up as a potential bounty. The one I just got was just Mako and there was an ortolan in Gault's place on the bounty list.

 

I started SoR planning to escape out if the cinematic was broken. It went off normally, so I went on ahead with it and everything turned out all right.

 

About the trouble conversation: for non-Mandos the trouble is that they aren't Mandalorian rather than being from different clans that were recently in conflict. You'd know if you got the version not for Mandalorians, Torian straight up says that the BH isn't one.

 

I also didn't see a conversation pop up on Belsavis. I have one from just after speaking to Tormen at the start of Chapter 3 and then the next one is after starting the class quest on Voss and I dropped everything to talk to him when his conversations popped up since I was aware that people weren't getting conversations.

[Shambolic]

Just curious, why would this make it more confusing? Back in the day, I purposefully held off on the bulk of Quinn's conversations until after Corellia. I thought his story made a lot more sense that way, and I believe that most of the his romance conversations should have been gated behind Corellia in the first place. It would have solved the disaster that occurs if you marry Quinn before the "incident."

 

 

This is just my take on it, but If you marry Quinn after the incident, you have to force your character to accept him in a very short period of time--requiring an extreme stretch of the imagination for most players (except a die-hard Sith who would undoubtedly find his ambition attractive). Before, you could rationalize keeping him around by falling back on what seemed like a loving marriage. In the current model, you either ditch him immediately or you forgive him enough to want to marry him in the space of a few quests--I don't know about you, but I would need more time than that to consider even letting him back on the ship.

However, saving all the romance options until after Corellia might be a way around that. The catch is, new players won't know what's coming and will blow through his romance convos as they come.

 

Also, I honestly think that that disaster is a cornerstone of the female Warrior's story line, and marrying Quinn beforehand gives even deeper meaning to the events that transpire afterward. Of course, it's all subjective--that's the beauty of the game. I think Quinn's romance could make sense both ways, but I also believe that the game designers intended his romance to play a part in the Warrior's greater story:

(for instance, the tiny bit of development that happens after he protects Vowrawn at your ship where you can decide to forgive him)

 

 

By the way, I will be pissed off if that convo is missing because you can't marry Quinn til after the resolution now.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Shambolic

[Shambolic]

From a thread I made trying to figure out what the trigger for the two different Makeb cinematics is (the likely culprit is the broken class quests that they're fixing in 4.5, since the alternate cinematic with just Mako appears to be for people who didn't finish their class quest and wouldn't have all their companions)

 

Makes sense, I never got the completion achievement on my BH, and I haven't started SoR for the same reason.

 

About the trouble conversation: for non-Mandos the trouble is that they aren't Mandalorian rather than being from different clans that were recently in conflict. You'd know if you got the version not for Mandalorians, Torian straight up says that the BH isn't one.

 

Ah, it took me a moment but I know what you're talking about. I thought you meant the quest that starts with the BH approaching Torian and saying, "Trouble?" That quest is about Corridan Ordo, not our clans, so it threw me for a sec. You mean the "I love you" convo! Makes sense now. Thankfully there's that one non-Mando romance on Youtube to show all of us die-hards what the other side looks like. Unfortunately, she ends the romance by telling him that her kids won't be Mando, so I'll be left wondering what the marriage proposal looks like for a non-Mando.

[Shambolic]

Also, the patch notes for 4.5 are up, and no mention of companion fixes. At all. How depressing.

 

http://dulfy.net/2016/05/31/swtor-game-update-4-5-patch-notes/

[XiamaraSimi]

Might want to add in your notes that the Vector/Scourge unitard bug has be going on for 4+ YEARS now

[leviathanmirror]

Also, the patch notes for 4.5 are up, and no mention of companion fixes. At all. How depressing.

 

http://dulfy.net/2016/05/31/swtor-game-update-4-5-patch-notes/

 

It seems like people have only really been reporting or considering Torian's conversations an issue recently (probably because more people are replaying in anticipation of his return). It may take awhile for BioWare to look at the issue, decide if it really is an issue, and then figure out a fix if they decide that it needs to be fixed. The patch at the end of the month is really the earliest we could possibly hope for. But it will probably take longer if they even see it as a problem.

 

I hope if they don't see it as an issue we at least get a 'working as intended' post.

[Damask_Rose]

This is just my take on it, but If you marry Quinn after the incident, you have to force your character to accept him in a very short period of time--requiring an extreme stretch of the imagination for most players (except a die-hard Sith who would undoubtedly find his ambition attractive). Before, you could rationalize keeping him around by falling back on what seemed like a loving marriage. In the current model, you either ditch him immediately or you forgive him enough to want to marry him in the space of a few quests--I don't know about you, but I would need more time than that to consider even letting him back on the ship.

However, saving all the romance options until after Corellia might be a way around that. The catch is, new players won't know what's coming and will blow through his romance convos as they come.

 

Also, I honestly think that that disaster is a cornerstone of the female Warrior's story line, and marrying Quinn beforehand gives even deeper meaning to the events that transpire afterward. Of course, it's all subjective--that's the beauty of the game. I think Quinn's romance could make sense both ways, but I also believe that the game designers intended his romance to play a part in the Warrior's greater story:

(for instance, the tiny bit of development that happens after he protects Vowrawn at your ship where you can decide to forgive him)

 

 

By the way, I will be pissed off if that convo is missing because you can't marry Quinn til after the resolution now.

 

On my first playthrough, way back when, I didn't feed Quinn gifts and just gained affection from conversations and the marriage occurred after the Quinncedent. That seemed to me the way it was intended and worked quite well. It was only by reading the forums that I learned other people rushed and got the marriage earlier which made the betrayal seem much worse.

[Shambolic]

It seems like people have only really been reporting or considering Torian's conversations an issue recently (probably because more people are replaying in anticipation of his return). It may take awhile for BioWare to look at the issue, decide if it really is an issue, and then figure out a fix if they decide that it needs to be fixed. The patch at the end of the month is really the earliest we could possibly hope for. But it will probably take longer if they even see it as a problem.

 

I hope if they don't see it as an issue we at least get a 'working as intended' post.

 

Makes sense, but I was more shocked to see no references to any of the other bugs that have been around a lot longer--courting gifts, voice problems, the HK and Treek issues, missing influence from conversations, and so on.

[Shambolic]

On my first playthrough, way back when, I didn't feed Quinn gifts and just gained affection from conversations and the marriage occurred after the Quinncedent. That seemed to me the way it was intended and worked quite well. It was only by reading the forums that I learned other people rushed and got the marriage earlier which made the betrayal seem much worse.

 

Well, it seems I might be forced to play it that way now, so I'll get to see if it feels more natural. I'm sure the story remains enjoyable either way, as long as you get to stick it to Darth Diabeetus in the end. Also, +1 for "Quinncident!"

[Shambolic]

Might want to add in your notes that the Vector/Scourge unitard bug has be going on for 4+ YEARS now

 

I added it to the post. Since it's been that long, I can only make three assumptions: either people haven't complained enough for them to be aware of it, or they don't know how to fix it, or it's not actually a bug and the unitards are supposed to be there. None of those assumptions are very hopeful

[Cedia]

One can always hope for stealth fixes! Though I'm not sure what I want to do now.

 

Anyway, I can totally see BioWare preparing for 4.0 by saying, "Yeah, just make the conversations start after every planet," and totally forgetting (or not caring) about Torian and Belsavis.

[CloudCastle]

Also, I honestly think that that disaster is a cornerstone of the female Warrior's story line, and marrying Quinn beforehand gives even deeper meaning to the events that transpire afterward. Of course, it's all subjective--that's the beauty of the game. I think Quinn's romance could make sense both ways, but I also believe that the game designers intended his romance to play a part in the Warrior's greater story:

(for instance, the tiny bit of development that happens after he protects Vowrawn at your ship where you can decide to forgive him)

 

 

That's an interesting perspective and not one I've heard expressed much, actually. When I first did the SW story, there was a huge thread railing about Quinn, where the majority of the people who seemed most upset were the ones who had married him early. His romance is a complicated one, and you really do have to bring your own interpretation to the table to make it work. I personally like the idea that my SW was actually quite impressed with Quinn's gall and clever planning, and saw him as a worthy contender in the Sith game of politics after that. It ended up being what launched her romance with him, rather than what (could have) ended it. I also picture them having had a lot of time together before hand to get to know each other already (a year or more?) Even waiting until after Corellia, I didn't feel the romance was rushed, rather it went from a slow burn to a full out explosion.

 

To get back to Torian, I don't have much to add there. I just did his quests on both a male (Mandalorian) and a female (non-Mando) but I can't recall if my male got the Resol'nare convo or not, because I did it before reading the thread on it.

[Shambolic]

That's an interesting perspective and not one I've heard expressed much, actually. When I first did the SW story, there was a huge thread railing about Quinn, where the majority of the people who seemed most upset were the ones who had married him early. His romance is a complicated one, and you really do have to bring your own interpretation to the table to make it work. I personally like the idea that my SW was actually quite impressed with Quinn's gall and clever planning, and saw him as a worthy contender in the Sith game of politics after that. It ended up being what launched her romance with him, rather than what (could have) ended it. I also picture them having had a lot of time together before hand to get to know each other already (a year or more?) Even waiting until after Corellia, I didn't feel the romance was rushed, rather it went from a slow burn to a full out explosion.

 

I can see this working, especially since Quinn basically ignores all of your advances until halfway through Taris. Even then, there's no real assertion or anything, just some offhand dialogue.

But, I still do think his betrayal is tied to the romance in ways that make it more meaningful if you marry him before he betrays you: for instance, on Tatooine, when you're confronting your reflection and it straight up tells you that you're flirting with any number of disasters--very pointed and practically literal for the F!Warr romancing Quinn.

 

 

His "gall and clever planning" could be reason enough to spare him,but I can't really see a true Sith being able to fully trust Quinn after the incident (if she ever really did)--at least not enough to let him share her bed or raise her children. Still, perhaps mistrust and deception are commonplace in Imperial marriages (just look at what happened with Lord Grathan and his wife back on Dromund Kaas). My first warrior was predominantly LS, so she took the betrayal hard--not just personally, but as a rejection of the reforms she was trying to make (the reforms she thought Quinn supported).

As you said, anyone can make their own rationalizations behind the scenes, and everyone's going to have their own interpretation. Hoorah for involved stories!

 

Overall, I think I'm just a little disappointed that they are limiting player experiences--you have no choice now to marry him before the events of Corellia, and new players will never have

that gut-wrenching moment when you realize that your husband has chosen your master over you and has carefully planned your assassination.

While the plot twist still happens, its value is modified--and perhaps lessened.

 

To get back to Torian, I don't have much to add there. I just did his quests on both a male (Mandalorian) and a female (non-Mando) but I can't recall if my male got the Resol'nare convo or not, because I did it before reading the thread on it.

 

If it was after 4.0, I'm going to bet you didn't, but we'll never know! Oh well. Wish that person who saved up all their convos til the conclusion would check in. It'd be good to know if that is a way around this particular bug (though I doubt it).

Edited June 2, 2016 by Shambolic

[CloudCastle]

His "gall and clever planning" could be reason enough to spare him, but I can't really see a true Sith being able to fully trust Quinn after the incident (if she ever really did)--at least not enough to let him share her bed or raise her children. Still, perhaps mistrust and deception are commonplace in Imperial marriages (just look at what happened with Lord Grathan and his wife back on Dromund Kaas). My first warrior was predominantly LS, so she took the betrayal hard--not just personally, but as a rejection of the reforms she was trying to make (the reforms she thought Quinn supported). As you said, anyone can make their own rationalizations behind the scenes, and everyone's going to have their own interpretation. Hoorah for involved stories!

 

Well, my SW was primarily DS (honorable DS, if that makes sense), so I felt like Quinn's actions fit right in with Sith culture and were also very understandable, given the powerless position of non-Sith in the Empire.

 

 

I also felt that after the betrayal his devotion to her was solidified even more, because of how she understood and forgave him.

 

 

After reading those threads about everyone hating on Quinn, I was determined to make the romance work in plausible way that didn't involve a

 

 

tragic betrayal

 

 

and the only way I could picture that happening was if you waited until late in the story to really get the romance underway.

 

(If anyone is curious how I envisioned a DS Sith romancing Quinn,

while interpreting the betrayal in a different light,

I wrote it all out in this story: Fear and Forgiveness)

 

If it was after 4.0, I'm going to bet you didn't, but we'll never know! Oh well. Wish that person who saved up all their convos til the conclusion would check in. It'd be good to know if that is a way around this particular bug (though I doubt it).

 

Well, here's what would have made it interesting. I finished the BH story with him long before 4.0, but then never got around to getting the affection up on my other companions (besides Mako.) So it was only 2 weeks ago that I decided to clear out all the triangles on my ship and do those old conversations. It might have been an interesting way to test whether the bug was something that happened only to BH's finishing the class story after 4.0, or if it's happening to those who finished it before as well. What are some of the lines that Torian actually says in that convo? I remember him offering to make me Tingular, which surprised me, because I had assumed that that was a female romance only conversation. But I'm having trouble recalling much else that was specific.

Edited June 1, 2016 by CloudCastle

[Cedia]

Well, here's what would have made it interesting. I finished the BH story with him long before 4.0, but then never got around to getting the affection up on my other companions (besides Mako.) So it was only 2 weeks ago that I decided to clear out all the triangles on my ship and do those old conversations. It might have been an interesting way to test whether the bug was something that happened only to BH's finishing the class story after 4.0, or if it's happening to those who finished it before as well. What are some of the lines that Torian actually says in that convo? I remember him offering to make me Tingular, which surprised me, because I had assumed that that was a female romance only conversation. But I'm having trouble recalling much else that was specific.

 

Ways of the Warrior (Resol'nare)

 

The Next Step (Mando'a)

[CloudCastle]

Ways of the Warrior (Resol'nare)

 

The Next Step (Mando'a)

 

Thank you! Now, are those the two conversations that people are missing?

 

I just went back and dug through my screenshots and movies and guess what? My male Mandalorian did indeed get the resol'nare conversation. I matched up the screenshots with the video posted here. Now remember, I finished the BH class quest chain before 4.0 with him, but just did the Torian conversations 2 weeks ago (May 14th according to screenshot.) If it's a flagging issue, he carried his flag into 4.0 and the conversation still triggered.

 

Now my female BH did not get either conversation as far as I can tell, but she wasn't Mando, so that could be intentional. I am a bit bummed that it appears I missed out on a black screen with Torian because of it. Actually, looking through my videos with her, I didn't see that she got ANY black screens with Torian.

[Cedia]

Thank you! Now, are those the two conversations that people are missing?

 

I just went back and dug through my screenshots and movies and guess what? My male Mandalorian did indeed get the resol'nare conversation. I matched up the screenshots with the video posted here. Now remember, I finished the BH class quest chain before 4.0 with him, but just did the Torian conversations 2 weeks ago (May 14th according to screenshot.) If it's a flagging issue, he carried his flag into 4.0 and the conversation still triggered.

 

Now my female BH did not get either conversation as far as I can tell, but she wasn't Mando, so that could be intentional. I am a bit bummed that it appears I missed out on a black screen with Torian because of it. Actually, looking through my videos with her, I didn't see that she got ANY black screens with Torian.

 

Non-Mandalorians are supposed to get the private shooting lessons FTB scene instead. Right now, everyone seems to be getting the shooting lessons one, and the Resol'nare one doesn't happen at all.

 

My Mandalorian BH who was made post 4.0 did not get either of those.