Lalainnia Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 As for the PT thing about the survival nerf I'm pretty sure this was meant as a nerf to AP as they have access to 7 rockets total. At the same time did any dps even take shield cannon as a utility option? I mean did any dps really use them as a def ability for hp instead of burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothfussian Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 When was the last time you did an operation? I only ask because sorc and sage heals currently over perform in all areas pve and pvp. Seems like the information you're using is when 3.0 came out and sorc healers weren't wanted not because they couldn't heal but because they were far too squishy and boss mechs were well near 1 globalling them along with the almighty trooper htl to ignore the majority of mechs throughout multiple fights. Well I cleared NiM council in Dread Palace last night with my guild, so recently. And both of our healers are Conqueror and Deposer healers, one is a sorc, the other a Merc, and who pulls higher is basically down to who gets better crits/heal fluff. You can pull basically equivilant single target numbers on a merc with better AoE, you just have to actually be good at the class vs lets hit the green shiny buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabigool Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 After reading through the responses and thinking on these points a bit more, I have to say overall I'm impressed with the effort. I think it's not fair to expect results that please everyone WRT class balance, and some of these changes seem either pointless or counterproductive but overall, I appreciate they: a) are actually trying to do something b) are doing modest nerfs rather than scorching the earth. So - thanks. A couple things: When are you going to address the fact that tanks do not need 3000 defense rating and fix the stats so gear has absorb mods again instead of too much defense ? Why even create an enhancement with absorb and defense on it just for 4.0 it does not make sense what so ever Option 1 shield defense option 2 should have been shield absorb .. Please. This. And then: Jokes on you BioWare, already killed Revan HM over a year ago on my PT spamming Rail shot and explosive dart from 30m popping hydraulic overrides every 30 seconds. Epic, made my day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauvtus Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Wait wait wait....so you are actively making Powertechs useless outside of melee combat by reducing the range of Railshot?....good to know. Because now im F#$%'D if the jet charge is on cooldown and need to do damage to close the distance. Anyone who says that the basic attack/pistol fire should be enough, no its not...it does F$%K all for damage. Umm that's what HO is for? Dude do you know how other melee classes work? What does a mara or sin do when their gap closers are on CD? You made me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauvtus Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 When are you going to address the fact that tanks do not need 3000 defense rating and fix the stats so gear has absorb mods again instead of too much defense ? Why even create an enhancement with absorb and defense on it just for 4.0 it does not make sense what so ever Option 1 shield defense option 2 should have been shield absorb .. Actually that's a very bad balance attempt. Jugg tanks rely heavily on Defense as primary mitigation, but since Defense from gear works only against white damage, they were constantly behind the other 2 tanks. With 4.0 BW tried to balance this by giving all tanks way too much Defense, so juggs have more of their most useful stat, while the other 2 got slightly nerfed because they have less of their own useful stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 (edited) Absolutely PVP-based changes. As for PVE...Sorc heals needed it, PT's did not...and buffing Mercs? That's just silly. Classic example of class changes being focused on just one aspect of the player base. I know the PVP class balance is absolutely broken, but does this really fix it? Better to just separate the two than continue this flawed approach. Edited May 13, 2016 by UberSamoyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Absolutely PVP-based changes. As for PVE...Sorc heals needed it, PT's did not...and buffing Mercs? That's just silly. Classic example of class changes being focused on just one aspect of the player base. I know the PVP class balance is absolutely broken, but does this really fix it? Better to just separate the two than continue this flawed approach. What are you talking about? Mercs remained unchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Absolutely PVP-based changes. As for PVE...Sorc heals needed it, PT's did not...and buffing Mercs? That's just silly. Classic example of class changes being focused on just one aspect of the player base. I know the PVP class balance is absolutely broken, but does this really fix it? Better to just separate the two than continue this flawed approach. If they would just make 1 spec a pvp spec that provides the buffs to make it the only spec you would pvp in they could use that to balance classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britharen Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Overall, I would say that the classes that you targeted and how you nerfed them seems ok. Will need to see it in live; but a hesitant thumbs up. However, there is one big exception and it is the nerf to sin/shadows. You do not have an explanation as there isn't one. FiB/DF doesn't spread dots, used to have a 30m range, and with our limited mobility any bit of range is key. The only thing I can think is you want to be conservative in your game assets, but that is a lousy explanation that can easily be solved by what you did to rs/hib for troopers/bh. Just give shadow/sins a radius boost passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 And meanwhile the whole operative class languishes in the shadows. Not sure why they haven't addressed this issue yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Well I cleared NiM council in Dread Palace last night with my guild, so recently. And both of our healers are Conqueror and Deposer healers, one is a sorc, the other a Merc, and who pulls higher is basically down to who gets better crits/heal fluff. You can pull basically equivilant single target numbers on a merc with better AoE, you just have to actually be good at the class vs lets hit the green shiny buttons. So from what I got out of reading what you just wrote is that sorc healers won't be able to fluff their numbers anymore because they're going to be busy using consuming darkness while the merc aoe kolto fluffs mkay then I'm not sure why you are concerned about fluff healing in a pve environment where you will almost always have 2 healers to prevent anything detrimental to a friendly. I personally just found ur complaint dealing with sorcs pve wise odd considering how extraordinary sorcs/sages are doing in meaningful output and resource control and even a further step parsley in 4.0 era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 What are you talking about? Mercs remained unchanged. The range increase was my point, although the dps is unchanged. We'll now get even more unskilled merc's spamming 2-3 abilites in Ops. Relative to the many issues with class imbalance, fine tuning Merc's seemed a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 The range increase was my point, although the dps is unchanged. We'll now get even more unskilled merc's spamming 2-3 abilites in Ops. Relative to the many issues with class imbalance, fine tuning Merc's seemed a bit much. There were literally 0 changes to Mercs. Those abilities are already 30 meter range, but were lowered for VG/PT here so an ability that extended the range back out for Merc/Mando was necessary. Probably stop talking about balance if you're not sure how classes work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 (edited) There were literally 0 changes to Mercs. Those abilities are already 30 meter range, but were lowered for VG/PT here so an ability that extended the range back out for Merc/Mando was necessary. Probably stop talking about balance if you're not sure how classes work. Yep...I definitely misread the changes to Merc's. My bad. TBH...I really wasn't thinking much about them. It was an "off the cuff" reply. Regardless, my original point still stands. Apart from Sorc heals, these are PVP-intensive changes. As for PVE....nerfing PT's was undeserved. They were actually at a pretty even point. It's now a melee class instead of that cool medium range hybrid. Madness was already force negative, so it was relatively limited in it's long application in boss fights. Neither class was overperforming. Meanwhile, we have totally broken classes like dps Operatives. Granted, the actual spread from the best dps to worst isn't that extreme. In theory, it's not so bad. In reality? It would have been far better (from a PVE perspective) to buff some underperformers up to a reasonable level. The changes were not *that* extreme, but I believe those resources could have been expended elsewhere. As long as they continue to buff/nerf based on PVE or PVP, it's never going to hit a sweet spot. Better to just divorce the two. But, that would take effort...and we wouldn't get a new Op until 2020. So yes...I'll keep talking. Edited May 13, 2016 by UberSamoyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyovarde Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 And now they did absolutely nothing to tweak damage outputs of horribly understrength specs such as Sharpshooter, Marksman, Concentration, Focus, Rage, and Fury... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBenedict Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 It's now a melee class instead of that cool medium range hybrid. This is honestly why I don't like this change. I wouldn't mind if the damage values or other things were adjusted, but it was nice to be able to have a regular blaster rifle or a single blaster pistol and still have some decent occasional ranged options. Not liking the change overall, since I think it impacts both the fun and the identity of the class to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinQCowart Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Eric, No, just no. These changes are terrible tell the combat team to scrap this and go back to drawing board. We need class balance but this is just going to make things even more unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 This is honestly why I don't like this change. I wouldn't mind if the damage values or other things were adjusted, but it was nice to be able to have a regular blaster rifle or a single blaster pistol and still have some decent occasional ranged options. Not liking the change overall, since I think it impacts both the fun and the identity of the class to be honest. So much for keeping up your bleed up from distance as well. Changing almost everything to melee range does change the identity of the class. And, claiming that it should have been this way after so many years seems disingenuous....or downright negligent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownofGold Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Interesting post, in particular to this statement: "Powertechs are melee onslaught specialists ". If this is the case, please explain: 01 - 7068 - +6.90% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman 02 - 6857 - +3.71% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat vs 08 - 6645 - +0.50% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech 16 - 6439 - -2.61% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics Who are the melee onslaught specialists again? Oh, and also, it seems sorc healers are getting a buff, not a nerf! They did not say that PT/VAN are the BEST "melee onslaught specialists". They just said that they are A melee onslaught specialist. Basically they mean to say that they are meant to be melee, not ranged. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyons_Crest Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Why on earth would you increase the " COST " for sorcs / sages to heal? To encourage a little force management of some sort? What's this B.S. excuse behind not buffing the other healing classes? What is that Bioware you all don't want to work? Oh... ok gottcha Why nerf the heals for the PT? They were fine - Balance with other tanks? Give guardian/ Jugg some way to deal with dot dmg... How about you lazy devs fix it so that tanks can't attack and hit people for 22k dmg in a single hit. You devs are the worst I've ever seen - never have I seen such a lack of business skills and development skills in a million dollar US based game or any game based world wide. You all make one fix break nine other things this is just a disgrace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandLordMenace Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 So much for keeping up your bleed up from distance as well. Changing almost everything to melee range does change the identity of the class. And, claiming that it should have been this way after so many years seems disingenuous....or downright negligent. While I get this, the fact remains that most melee classes in the game do not have the 30M capabilities of a VG, and must resetup from the start the moment they get to the boss, plus with hydraulics, storm, and thermal det, there's very little excuse for a PT to not be able to close the gap, with fillers in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyDarkkitten Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 These changes are hilarious. Quality of life nerfs to powertechs and hatred sins without doing anything to alter their over/under performance and a BUFF to pvp sorcs burst healing at the expense of their sustained pve healing... which is the exact opposite of what was needed to balance them with other healers. I'll never understand why game designers focus on making their games less fun to play, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 AP should still be able to keep their bleed up from a distance explosive dart still refreshes it was that changed??? Didn't see that in the notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberSamoyed Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 While I get this, the fact remains that most melee classes in the game do not have the 30M capabilities of a VG, and must resetup from the start the moment they get to the boss, plus with hydraulics, storm, and thermal det, there's very little excuse for a PT to not be able to close the gap, with fillers in between. I guess the issue is that I always considered my PT as neither ranged or melee. It's not so much not being able to do it...it's the whole identity thing. I enjoyed running in throwing my blade and punch, then backing off from the melee group in my own little special place between ranged/melee. Maybe a few bunny hops to let everyone know I'm unique. Now I'm sitting in there with you Juggs. I lost my flair man...my flair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Interesting post, in particular to this statement: "Powertechs are melee onslaught specialists ". If this is the case, please explain: 01 - 7068 - +6.90% --- Marauder - Annihilation || Sentinel - Watchman 02 - 6857 - +3.71% --- Marauder - Carnage || Sentinel - Combat vs 08 - 6645 - +0.50% --- Powertech - Pyrotech || Vanguard - Plasmatech 16 - 6439 - -2.61% --- Powertech - Advanced Prototype || Vanguard - Tactics Who are the melee onslaught specialists again? Oh, and also, it seems sorc healers are getting a buff, not a nerf! Way to go revealing a shallow understanding of the material you're quoting Jon Snow. Tactics VG is exceptionally good in PVE because of data which does not show when touching up a dummy. Into the Fray (passive for all VG): Extends Reactive Shield by 3s to 18s duration. Heal 2.5% and regen 2 Ammo every time you take AOE damage, limit of once per 3s. Reflexive Shield (level 52 unlock for Tactics VG): Reduces CD of Reactive Shield by 3s when you take damage, limit of once per 1.5s. Reactive Armour (Skilful Utility): When Into the Fray happens, damages the enemy if they are within 10m. Electro Shield (Masterful Utility): Enemies hitting your Reactive Shield take damage, limit of once per 1s. So to boil that down... In combat a Tactics VG gets higher resource regen, constantly damages an enemy when they use AOE, does even more damage when an enemy hits their Reactive Shield and their shield is boosted with a fast CD and longer duration. A casual reader of theory dps won't know anything about that. In raiding guilds this is abused to the point where VG will deliberately stand in AOE (or abilities which are labelled as AOE even if they act like DoT) to maximise reflected damage and resource regen at the cost of more healing required from healers. Not to mention Tactics VG superior range advantages over all other melee. Some of that translates well into PVP, some of it doesn't, but Tactics VG isn't this feeble class you're making it out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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