Arcann and Vaylin's lightsaber style?

[Slowpokeking]

Juyo or Shien/Djem So? Do Zakuul knights have their unique lightsaber style?

[Rhyltran]

Juyo or Shien/Djem So? Do Zakuul knights have their unique lightsaber style?

 

I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. Supposedly Zakuul existed before Valkorion but were they as militant as force users back then or did he introduce them to modern aspects of the force? I like that you brought up this question. It's a good one.

[Diviciacus]

It's a tough question.

 

Zakuul is deep in Wildspace. How Vitiate found them and became Emperor is a mystery. How the Zakuul learned to build lightsabers is also a mystery. Did Vitiate teach them? Have they known since the Jedi Schisms, as the Sith? Without more information, the most logical answer is they have their own, Form-less style.

 

Arcann and Vaylin are both insane and deeply Dark Side, so one could argue their saber combat might be broadly similar to Juyo, as it is the most aggressive of the seven Forms, and normally skirts the Dark Side.

 

The Knights of Zakuul, due to the advantages and limitations of using a polearm, most likely have a combat style which is similar in appearance to Ataru. A pole-saber as they use would necessarily require that sort of wide, sweeping strikes because the handle is so long - and as shown in-game, they clearly don't do much in the way of more direct, stabby (for lack of a better term) attacks.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Diviciacus

[Codedrago]

Vaylin doesn't seem to have a style, she's not experienced in using a saber and just swings it. She's more focused on using the force.

[Slowpokeking]

Malgus' style resemble Shien/Djem So. Baras is clear, Shien after he took the mask. Not sure about the other Sith characters. Edited May 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[YoshiRaphElan]

Arcann and Vaylin are both insane and deeply Dark Side, so one could argue their saber combat might be broadly similar to Juyo, as it is the most aggressive of the seven Forms, and normally skirts the Dark Side.

 

Well, that's another thing that should be mentioned...are Arcann and Vaylin actually dark side users? The Knights of Zakuul are kind of in-between, as Valkorian, Marr, and Satele indicate (and possibly Lana too, at some point, but I can't remember). Shouldn't we assume hat Arcann and Vaylin use some mixture, too? I mean, the blast that Arcann destroys HK-55 with does look like lightning, but it's golden, and seemingly much more powerful (notice that Valkorian's is still purple).

[Slowpokeking]

Well, that's another thing that should be mentioned...are Arcann and Vaylin actually dark side users? The Knights of Zakuul are kind of in-between, as Valkorian, Marr, and Satele indicate (and possibly Lana too, at some point, but I can't remember). Shouldn't we assume hat Arcann and Vaylin use some mixture, too? I mean, the blast that Arcann destroys HK-55 with does look like lightning, but it's golden, and seemingly much more powerful (notice that Valkorian's is still purple).

 

Yellow eyes=dark side corruption.

 

They don't follow the discipline of Zakuul knights as well.

[Diviciacus]

Well, that's another thing that should be mentioned...are Arcann and Vaylin actually dark side users? The Knights of Zakuul are kind of in-between, as Valkorian, Marr, and Satele indicate (and possibly Lana too, at some point, but I can't remember). Shouldn't we assume hat Arcann and Vaylin use some mixture, too? I mean, the blast that Arcann destroys HK-55 with does look like lightning, but it's golden, and seemingly much more powerful (notice that Valkorian's is still purple).

 

I'm willing to bet you a million credits that the little tantrum Arcann throws in Asylum isn't full of lightning because a conscious design decision was made to distance the Zakuul aesthetic from that of the Sith. Most people who play TOR likely aren't familiar with the bulk of the EU, and don't realize that there is a Dark Side beyond the Sith. So if Arcann was throwing a bunch of lightning around, they would see that and think "Is he just another Sith?"

[YoshiRaphElan]

That's fair. They both definitely predominantly use the dark side, that's for sure. And obviously, I know what you mean by there being dark side users outside of the Sith. I do suppose Arcann and Vaylin qualify. However I'd be interested to see if they have any light side leanings.

 

And for that matter, I wonder if Thexan wasn't more predominantly light side. Note that Arcann's eyes first went yellow after he killed Thexan; Thexan always had brown eyes, and Arcann usually did, too. I kind of feel like Thexan, although he clearly rejected Senya too, was more honorable and noble than his siblings.

Edited May 13, 2016 by YoshiRaphElan

[Diviciacus]

That's fair. They both definitely predominantly use the dark side, that's for sure. And obviously, I know what you mean by there being dark side users outside of the Sith. I do suppose Arcann and Vaylin qualify. However I'd be interested to see if they have any light side leanings.

 

And for that matter, I wonder if Thexan wasn't more predominantly light side. Note that Arcann's eyes first went yellow after he killed Thexan; Thexan always had brown eyes, and Arcann usually did, too. I kind of feel like Thexan, although he clearly rejected Senya too, was more honorable and noble than his siblings.

 

It's possible that at one point in the past Arcann did, but has since fallen in almost literally Ulic Qel-Droma style. Vaylin is as Dark as they come, however; she's obviously psychotic, right up there with the worst of the Sith.

 

Thexan is a bit of a wild card (especially since he's dead and all). Valkorion says that Thexan had the ambition while Arcann had only the jealousy in Chapter I. Ambition isn't particularly a Light Side trait; my personal thought on him is that while he was certainly the more level-headed of the two brothers, he would have ended up more Darth Marr than Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[TalonVII]

If I had to put Arcann into a lightsaber style, it's definitely in the form 5 area. For saber vs saber he is definitely in Djem/So and blaster blocking that's classic Shien form.

 

Vaylin is more in form 4 as is her mother Senya with flips, wide sweeps and spins.

[Codedrago]

If I had to put Arcann into a lightsaber style, it's definitely in the form 5 area. For saber vs saber he is definitely in Djem/So and blaster blocking that's classic Shien form.

 

Vaylin is more in form 4 as is her mother Senya with flips, wide sweeps and spins.

 

Actually, isn't Arcann's saber style in his list of buffs when he fights you on Asylum?

[BenKatarn]

Actually, isn't Arcann's saber style in his list of buffs when he fights you on Asylum?

 

To my recollection it doesn't state which form he uses, only that he is using the "ultimate defense", the result of his years of training with Zakuul Knights and Scions.

[StarChanneller]

That's fair. They both definitely predominantly use the dark side, that's for sure. And obviously, I know what you mean by there being dark side users outside of the Sith. I do suppose Arcann and Vaylin qualify. However I'd be interested to see if they have any light side leanings.

 

And for that matter, I wonder if Thexan wasn't more predominantly light side. Note that Arcann's eyes first went yellow after he killed Thexan; Thexan always had brown eyes, and Arcann usually did, too. I kind of feel like Thexan, although he clearly rejected Senya too, was more honorable and noble than his siblings.

 

That seems quite likely.

[adormitul]

Could be a combination of 3 lightsaber forms, form 3 with form 5 with form 7 for Arcann which by the way its awesome and well he is very very good at it.

For Vaylin is form 7 and some knowledge of form 6 Niman not very good at it but hey she is decent.

For Senya is form 7 and form 4 ataru and she is very good at it.

My opinion of course.

[Diviciacus]

Could be a combination of 3 lightsaber forms, form 3 with form 5 with form 7 for Arcann which by the way its awesome and well he is very very good at it.

For Vaylin is form 7 and some knowledge of form 6 Niman not very good at it but hey she is decent.

For Senya is form 7 and form 4 ataru and she is very good at it.

My opinion of course.

 

The thing you must keep in mind is that although the Forms had been largely developed by the Second Great Schism and Hundred-Year Darkness war (when the Dark Exiles originally found primordial Korriban), there's no guarantee any exiled Dark Side Jedi found Zakuul. Force-sensitivity =/= lightsaber Forms. The Forms are trained, not innate. We just don't know enough about Zakuulan history to be able to make any definitive statements; all we can do is make rough guesses.

 

If Zakuul developed in complete isolation apart from being found a few centuries ago the Emperor, and Vititate/Valkorion didn't tell the Zakuul about the Forms, then they can't be using them. They don't have knowledge of them. They might use techniques which are broadly similar, because there are only so many ways to swing a sword, but they wouldn't have the specific disciplines, styles, combat moves, and usages of the Forms themselves.

[MadDutchman]

Vaylin looks like Shii-Cho at best. Frankly, she's a terrible duelist.

 

I'd put Arcaan with Form 5 and 7

[MadDutchman]

The thing you must keep in mind is that although the Forms had been largely developed by the Second Great Schism and Hundred-Year Darkness war (when the Dark Exiles originally found primordial Korriban), there's no guarantee any exiled Dark Side Jedi found Zakuul. Force-sensitivity =/= lightsaber Forms. The Forms are trained, not innate. We just don't know enough about Zakuulan history to be able to make any definitive statements; all we can do is make rough guesses.

 

If Zakuul developed in complete isolation apart from being found a few centuries ago the Emperor, and Vititate/Valkorion didn't tell the Zakuul about the Forms, then they can't be using them. They don't have knowledge of them. They might use techniques which are broadly similar, because there are only so many ways to swing a sword, but they wouldn't have the specific disciplines, styles, combat moves, and usages of the Forms themselves.

 

While I agree with this (the fast/medium/strong forms of the early NJO before the old forms were recovered is a good example), the fact they can build lightsabers leads me to believe there is a good chance they were also introduced to the lightsaber forms (probably by Valkorian). I don't think it's likely they'd discover lightsaber technology on their own that just happens to be identical to modern lightsabers, and I don't see any reason Valkorian would introduce lightsabers and not the forms.

 

All guess work of course though.

[Diviciacus]

While I agree with this (the fast/medium/strong forms of the early NJO before the old forms were recovered is a good example), the fact they can build lightsabers leads me to believe there is a good chance they were also introduced to the lightsaber forms (probably by Valkorian). I don't think it's likely they'd discover lightsaber technology on their own that just happens to be identical to modern lightsabers, and I don't see any reason Valkorian would introduce lightsabers and not the forms.

 

All guess work of course though.

 

Yea, it's a really tough call. Did they know already, or did Vitiate teach them? And if he taught them how to build lightsabers, did he teach them Forms also? He could have withheld that knowledge for whatever reason. Even as strong in the Force as he is, no one in all of SW history has ever mastered all seven - at best he could teach perhaps two or three, and that's assuming Vitiate ever favored saber combat over raw Force potential. He did almost completely sit out the Great Hyperspace War (by choice), after all.

 

EDIT: No, I don't think Valkorion taught the Zakuul how to build lightsabers. Or certainly not Thexan and Arcann; it's very obvious they were building that first lightsaber (from the Sacrifice cinematic) as children hidden away somewhere from their father's prying eyes.

 

If the Zakuul knew already how to forge sabers, then it's likely the Forms would have come along with the saber tech. On the other hand, there have been multiple instances of more than one person in different parts of our Earth having the same idea, so it's possible that lightsaber technology was developed independently and in parallel on Zakuul. Lightsabers, after all, are very similar to blasters and aren't terribly complex devices mechanically; their only real fanciness (from an in-universe perspective) is how the power cell is handled - if the blade isn't in contact with anything, the electrical circuit is a perfect loop and the cell recharges as fast as it discharges.

 

Or perhaps some Force-sensitive explorer got lost and was captured. It would explain the tech, but not necessarily the Forms.

 

There's dozens of possible reasons why or why not something could be the case with Zakuul. We just have so little info to go on, that we're merely speculating (Even if it is interesting!)

Edited May 13, 2016 by Diviciacus

[MarauderNZero]

They use a very simple style of bash and slash with the occasional hk killing fireball.

[MayhemofChaonus]

It's a tough question.

 

Zakuul is deep in Wildspace. How Vitiate found them and became Emperor is a mystery. How the Zakuul learned to build lightsabers is also a mystery. Did Vitiate teach them? Have they known since the Jedi Schisms, as the Sith? Without more information, the most logical answer is they have their own, Form-less style.

 

Arcann and Vaylin are both insane and deeply Dark Side, so one could argue their saber combat might be broadly similar to Juyo, as it is the most aggressive of the seven Forms, and normally skirts the Dark Side.

 

The Knights of Zakuul, due to the advantages and limitations of using a polearm, most likely have a combat style which is similar in appearance to Ataru. A pole-saber as they use would necessarily require that sort of wide, sweeping strikes because the handle is so long - and as shown in-game, they clearly don't do much in the way of more direct, stabby (for lack of a better term) attacks.

 

Uhhh..... correct me if I'm wrong but Ataru is the Yoda form right? The one where a barrage of lightning-fast strikes is favored over big, strong attacks?

[Teriaon]

They use a very simple style of bash and slash with the occasional hk killing fireball.

 

I think that is mostly a resoult of the pretty poor quality of the animation in the games cutscenes, I dont think they are able to accuratly depict someone using the different styles, to be honest most of the animations in the game tends to make the user come of as sort of an amature, with wild overswings that leaves the user compleatly open to even the dumbest idiot to take them down, and other mistakes that would leave you dead in a moment in a real sword fight. But that is just a limitation of the games animations, which makes it so that I dont think anything about forms can be guessed from looking at the animations of the characters

[Diviciacus]

Uhhh..... correct me if I'm wrong but Ataru is the Yoda form right? The one where a barrage of lightning-fast strikes is favored over big, strong attacks?

 

Yoda indeed uses Ataru. However, I was going off the descriptors of the style of attacks:

 

An aggressive style, Form IV was fast-paced and effective against single opponents, though weaker in prolonged combat and confined spaces. Also, it was not recommended for use against opponents wielding blasters. Ataru was characterized by Force-assisted acrobatics, such as somersaults and leaping strikes, both for attack and defense. Another characteristic of the form was its fast, powerful strikes from multiple directions.

 

The two bolded excerpts are what gave me the original idea that Knights of Zakuul use techniques broadly similar to Ataru. They use saber pikes, which literally can't be used in confined spaces just because of the hilt, and they spend a lot of time making large sweeps with it. If you fight stronger ones in combat in say a Star Fortress (so that they live long enough), you'll also notice they make gigantic leaps in combat - ignoring the fact that some can Force Leap at you - even higher than the jump Warrior/Knight do for Impale/Overhead Slash or Rupture/Cauterize.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Diviciacus

[Jedi_riches]

Uhhh..... correct me if I'm wrong but Ataru is the Yoda form right? The one where a barrage of lightning-fast strikes is favored over big, strong attacks?

 

Ataru is also the lightsaber style that is used by Qui-Gon and Obi-wan in episode 1.

[Rhyltran]

I think that is mostly a resoult of the pretty poor quality of the animation in the games cutscenes, I dont think they are able to accuratly depict someone using the different styles, to be honest most of the animations in the game tends to make the user come of as sort of an amature, with wild overswings that leaves the user compleatly open to even the dumbest idiot to take them down, and other mistakes that would leave you dead in a moment in a real sword fight. But that is just a limitation of the games animations, which makes it so that I dont think anything about forms can be guessed from looking at the animations of the characters

 

This is true of any of the lightsaber styles (even the ones in the movies) and choreographed swordplay in movies in general. People parry strikes that there's no need to and evade but not counterattack when they should.