Lame new story

[Axcalion]

The Zakuul Knights could have been around for a longer time, but this isn't mentioned anywhere. Having abilities equal or greater than those of most Jedi or Sith with far less training and experience qualifies them for Mary Sue status. The Zakuul Knights had never experienced all open war against a nation, their Invasion of the Galaxy was their first real one. While the Jedi and Sith have been embroiled in a war for several decades.

skill and knowledge

Which both the Jedi and Sith have. What do the Knights of Zakuul have?

They could have bombarded planets, killing most Jedi, but what use would a ruined planet serve?

It's not just some lame reason Bioware made up, it's the usual speal of the EU universe as a whole, Bioware already had the grey possibly being better then simply going to one side as a thing all the way back in KOTOR. Whether you like it or not doesn't matter to this, it makes sense in the context of the story because the story was made to support the notion.

The most powerful known Force-users are either dark side (Sidious, Valkorion, Talzin) or Light side (Yoda, Satele Shan, Jedi Exile...). There aren't many known powerful "grey" ones, correct me if I'm mistaken.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Axcalion

[Codedrago]

The Zakuul Knights could have been around for a longer time, but this isn't mentioned anywhere. Having abilities equal or greater than those of most Jedi or Sith with far less training and experience qualifies them for Mary Sue status. The Zakuul Knights had never experienced all open war against a nation, their Invasion of the Galaxy was their first real one. While the Jedi and Sith have been embroiled in a war for several decades.

 

It's never EVER stated that they have had less training then jedi or sith, plus according to the lore texts you find this is not their first war. This was their last war before turning to lean heavily on the fleet. And remember, for at least a century Valkorian has been preparing them to take the core worlds (According to his dialogue in chapter 1).

 

And one thing that kind of goes against the Mary Sue label, most of the main characters have proven to be able to beat Knights on their own. Hell, Koth and HK-55 manage to hold off tons of them while you and Arcann fight it out in chapter 8.

 

 

Which both the Jedi and Sith have. What do the Knights of Zakuul have?

Skill and knowledge from the abomination who's been fighting with and against both jedi and Sith for centuries.

 

The most powerful known Force-users are either dark side (Sidious, Valkorion, Talzin) or Light side (Yoda, Satele Shan, Jedi Exile...). There aren't many known powerful "grey" ones, correct me if I'm mistaken

Should Satele Shan count when she admits to having her arse handed to her by Zakuul? Plus, Valkorian is supposed to be grey in the story (Though this is kind of shaky as we don't really know too much about the Valkorion part of Vitiate, but with the 180 in personality and by Valkorian's own words, everything changed for him after Ziost).

 

Plus, why does this matter? Because some of the most powerful force users in the SW history of of one side, Grey force users can't be more powerful then the average jedi and sith?

[Axcalion]

So Valkorion created a Force sensitive Order in a few decades, while the Jedi and Sith took millennia to do the same?

Should Satele Shan count when she admits to having her arse handed to her by Zakuul? Plus, Valkorian is supposed to be grey in the story

Satele is supposed to be really strong, not on the Hero of Tython or Barsenthor's level, but still very strong and absolutely no pushover. Maybe she was surrounded by like dozens of Knights? Or maybe she really is the most horrible Grandmaster in Jedi history... Alternatively, the"Satele Shan" we encountered is not the real Satele Shan, but Valkorion who's impersonating her and Marr. And Satele could have very well managed against the Zakuul Knights, while most of her fellow Jedi didn't.

 

Valkorion is faux affably evil, and probably has a hidden agenda. It's even stated in a KOTFE codex that he is a SITH ENTITY, Sith are dark sided. I'm not buying for one second that he is grey.

Plus, why does this matter? Because some of the most powerful force users in the SW history of of one side, Grey force users can't be more powerful then the average jedi and sith?

I would have preffered if they weren't described as very powerful, when in fact they get killed like normal bosses in-game.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Axcalion

[casirabit]

So Valkorion created a Force sensitive Order in a few decades, while the Jedi and Sith took millennia to do the same?

 

Satele is supposed to be really strong, not on the Hero of Tython or Barsenthor's level, but still very strong and absolutely no pushover. Maybe she was surrounded by like dozens of Knights? Or maybe she really is the most horrible Grandmaster in Jedi history... Alternatively, the"Satele Shan" we encountered is not the real Satele Shan, but Valkorion who's impersonating her and Marr. And Satele could have very well managed against the Zakuul Knights, while most of her fellow Jedi didn't.

 

Valkorion is faux affably evil, and probably has a hidden agenda. It's even stated in a KOTFE codex that he is a SITH ENTITY, Sith are dark sided. I'm not buying for one second that he is grey.

 

I would have preffered if they weren't described as very powerful, when in fact they get killed like normal bosses in-game.

 

It honesty sounds like you have rose colored glasses on regarding the Sith and Jedi and no one can ever be more powerful than they are. Not every Jedi nor every sith is the same but you believe they have to be better than any one else because of your character.

 

I can see the EC being able to overtake the republic and empire and until it is proven that Satela is an imposter I am taking it at face value whereas if it is shown that it is her you would have a fit and go kicking and screaming that no it is not her no matter how the story unfolds.

[Axcalion]

I can see the EC being able to overtake the republic and empire and until it is proven that Satela is an imposter I am taking it at face value whereas if it is shown that it is her you would have a fit and go kicking and screaming that no it is not her no matter how the story unfolds.

I get that opinions differ, no need to be rude

Also, DON'T READ THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED ON FUTURE THE STORYLINE BUT...

 

The npc's of "Satele" and "Darth Marr" are labeled "Satele Shan Impersonator" and "Darth Marr impersonator" in datamined content. This suggest it's actually Valkorion deceiving us.

 

[Codedrago]

I get that opinions differ, no need to be rude

Also, DON'T READ THIS IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED ON FUTURE THE STORYLINE BUT...

 

The npc's of "Satele" and "Darth Marr" are labeled "Satele Shan Impersonator" and "Darth Marr impersonator" in datamined content. This suggest it's actually Valkorion deceiving us.

 

 

Datamined content also tells us that Satele got her arse handed to her by Arcann, so did a Dark Council member (For some reason the dialouge doesn't mention a name, maybe it was just another newbie replacement)

 

[Codedrago]

So Valkorion created a Force sensitive Order in a few decades, while the Jedi and Sith took millennia to do the same?

Valkorion didn't create the Knights of Zakuul.

 

Satele is supposed to be really strong, not on the Hero of Tython or Barsenthor's level, but still very strong and absolutely no pushover. Maybe she was surrounded by like dozens of Knights? Or maybe she really is the most horrible Grandmaster in Jedi history... Alternatively, the"Satele Shan" we encountered is not the real Satele Shan, but Valkorion who's impersonating her and Marr. And Satele could have very well managed against the Zakuul Knights, while most of her fellow Jedi didn't.

You can't really argue this as a point when it's merely speculation (And yes, datamined content of NPC names don't necessarily mean we were encountering fakes, sometimes bioware uses these names for Cinematic stand ins).

 

Valkorion is faux affably evil, and probably has a hidden agenda. It's even stated in a KOTFE codex that he is a SITH ENTITY, Sith are dark sided. I'm not buying for one second that he is grey.

So, a jedi can be grey, but not a sith?

 

I would have preffered if they weren't described as very powerful, when in fact they get killed like normal bosses in-game

So... Like most Sith and Jedi in the game?

[casirabit]

Axcalion;8927360]If Chancellor Saresh dared to arrest or kill the Hero of Tython of Barsenthor, the people would quickly turn against her. An angry mob of millions would form, storm the Palace of the Republic and killed Saresh before you could say Galactic Republic. Also, those two Jedi are very well known as national heroes, Saresh couldn't do much. Even if she have us arrested or killed we could easily dispatch any forces that she sends to us.

 

Funny thing about the public it gets fickle. The Jedi knight and Jedi Consular has been gone over 5 years and the public most likely would forget who they were. National heroes get forgotten as time wears on and being gone 5 years while they have had to deal with the forces would not set well with most of the public. They could even turn against them as well.

 

Put yourself in the place of those citizen. You see the knight or consular in the republic now how would you react? Most are going to be angry that they left them to deal with the EC forces on their own. If you say well explain it to them, have you ever tried talking to an angry mob? It is not pretty.

Edited May 6, 2016 by casirabit

[Axcalion]

Satele got her arse handed to her by Arcann

Ugh, this is very disappointing. She's supposed to be somewhat competent. I'm not saying she should have defeated Arcann, but she should have been more than a match for him.

Valkorion didn't create the Knights of Zakuul.

Then who did?

So, a jedi can be grey, but not a sith?

Actually I don't think Jedi can be grey. Grey "Jedi" could just as well be called grey "Sith", it's just some title that doesn't make much sense. Like the Voss, they are considered "Grey Jedi", but they aren't Jedi at all.

Funny thing about the public it gets fickle. The Jedi knight and Jedi Consular has been gone over 5 years and the public most likely would forget who they were. National heroes get forgotten as time wears on and being gone 5 years while they have had to deal with the forces would not set well with most of the public. They could even turn against them as well.

If they returned to the Republic, I'm sure most people will still recognize them, it's been five years, not five hundred.

So... Like most Sith and Jedi in the game?

Touché.

[Codedrago]

Funny thing about the public it gets fickle. The Jedi knight and Jedi Consular has been gone over 5 years and the public most likely would forget who they were. National heroes get forgotten as time wears on and being gone 5 years while they have had to deal with the forces would not set well with most of the public. They could even turn against them as well.

 

Put yourself in the place of those citizen. You see the knight or consular in the republic now how would you react? Most are going to be angry that they left them to deal with the EC forces on their own. If you say well explain it to them, have you ever tried talking to an angry mob? It is not pretty.

 

I think one mistake here is thinking that the PC's acts make them immune to the laws of their respective factions, reputation can't hold up against a persuasive and cunning enough offense. If Acina or Saresh wanted to arrest the PC, they could probably easily use their political pulls to cobble together an easy way to sway the public over to their side, especially since most of Arcann's pressure on the two factions could be twsted to be the Outlander's fault.

 

Plus, considering what can happen later... Saresh/Acina will have a lot of ammo.

[Codedrago]

Ugh, this is very disappointing. She's supposed to be somewhat competent. I'm not saying she should have defeated Arcann, but she should have been more than a match for him.

 

 

Maybe I misworded it, I don't mean she was easily beaten by him. I mean he just overwhelmed her, according to the dialogue his far superior force potential gave him an extreme advantage. Satele did well, but she just couldn't beat him. Then apparently Arcann made her watch as his knights cut down her fellow jedi.

 

 

Then who did?

 

All I know is that it wasn't Valkorion, the Knight swore their loyalty to him because he became the new Emperor after killing the old one. So either they were made by the old emperor, or they were here since the beginning of Zakuul as the protectors of it's royal families.

 

Actually I don't think Jedi can be grey. Grey "Jedi" could just as well be called grey "Sith", it's just some title that doesn't make much sense. Like the Voss, they are considered "Grey Jedi", but they aren't Jedi at all.

Well, you did mention grey jedi before, so I just assumed. Also, I've never heard the Voss be referenced as Grey jedi. Hell, Satele bloody hates them. Voss are just force users who use their power for one purpose with a different dogma to follow.

 

Touché

Yeah, aside from FP and OPS bosses, this is the same for all other powerful beings

[Axcalion]

 

Maybe I misworded it, I don't mean she was easily beaten by him. I mean he just overwhelmed her, according to the dialogue his far superior force potential gave him an extreme advantage. Satele did well, but she just couldn't beat him. Then apparently Arcann made her watch as his knights cut down her fellow jedi.

 

 

Wait, so how did she escape? Assuming that we met the real Satele on Odessen, shouldn't she be imprisoned/dead? Also, could you tell me where you got that info?

 

I really hope that we get to be the next Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, or at least someone very powerful, a new character.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Axcalion

[Codedrago]

 

 

 

Wait, so how did she escape? Assuming that we met the real Satele on Odessen, shouldn't she be imprisoned/dead? Also, could you tell me where you got that info?

 

.

 

 

Arcann let her go as an example when he saw how broken she was. And this is buried in the diaouge files, pieced together from dialouge from both Theron, Vaylin and Arcann, Arcann especially when you're fighting him. "The core worlds drop to their knees, the Empire cowers away and your pathetic Grandmaster was cripped by my hand. You are nothing. YOU. WILL. KNEEL"

 

 

I really hope that we get to be the next Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, or at least someone very powerful, a new character

I don't see us getting that high up in the title department until SWTOR is planned to end, though Valky is trying to place us on the Eternal Throne.

[Audoucet]

I, killed, Jordan-and-I-liiiiked-iiit...

[casirabit]

I, killed, Jordan-and-I-liiiiked-iiit...

 

My assassin killed him and then my agent killed Kailyo lol.......................

[Codedrago]

My assassin killed him and then my agent killed Kailyo lol.......................

 

"So, Kaliyo. You're recklessness has cost the lives of our top operatives, the mission has completly failed and Arcann is on high alert. All because you could wait two damn seconds for us to make a plan? And this is after you've already stabbed me in the back before hand. How do you plead?"

 

"U MAD BRO!?"

 

"Oh, for kriffs sake" *Shoots Kaliyo*

[Audoucet]

My assassin killed him and then my agent killed Kailyo lol.......................

 

You can kill Kailyo ?

[casirabit]

You can kill Kailyo ?

 

My agent did but you have to actually have told her to stay put and she ignored you before you have the option. Just like the option to discipline/punish Jordan you can do that with Kailyo.

[casirabit]

"So, Kaliyo. You're recklessness has cost the lives of our top operatives, the mission has completly failed and Arcann is on high alert. All because you could wait two damn seconds for us to make a plan? And this is after you've already stabbed me in the back before hand. How do you plead?"

 

"U MAD BRO!?"

 

"Oh, for kriffs sake" *Shoots Kaliyo*

 

Lol

 

 

She actually asks what you going to do "shoot me?" the look on her face was priceless when my agent said yep.

 

[Codedrago]

Lol

 

 

She actually asks what you going to do "shoot me?" the look on her face was priceless when my agent said yep.

 

I thnk that's why killing her is so mucuh easier then Jorgan, wether you like him or not Jorgan at least realises what he's done and accepts that he needs to be punished for it. Kaliyo does EXACTLY what she did back in her companion quest and basically taunts the player, thinking that she still has the bioware companion immunity.

[BlueShiftRecall]

I thnk that's why killing her is so mucuh easier then Jorgan, wether you like him or not Jorgan at least realises what he's done and accepts that he needs to be punished for it. Kaliyo does EXACTLY what she did back in her companion quest and basically taunts the player, thinking that she still has the bioware companion immunity.

 

 

My IA who is romancing her (and told her not to go after Jorgan) took the option, "I'm partially to blame" and she says to me, "That's an excellent point." and then he looks so disappointed and looks away from her (a nice little touch, really made me feel for him). He pretty much takes the blame for her mistake and then she agrees with you that it was mostly your fault and not hers...uhh no wonder he looked so disappointed in you Kaliyo. Makes me feel bad for him because I want to experience the Kaliyo romance option

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by BlueShiftRecall

[Axcalion]

I think one mistake here is thinking that the PC's acts make them immune to the laws of their respective factions, reputation can't hold up against a persuasive and cunning enough offense. If Acina or Saresh wanted to arrest the PC, they could probably easily use their political pulls to cobble together an easy way to sway the public over to their side, especially since most of Arcann's pressure on the two factions could be twsted to be the Outlander's fault.

 

Plus, considering what can happen later... Saresh/Acina will have a lot of ammo.

I think the Hero of Tython's, Barsenthor's, Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox's influence and opinion sways far more people than either Saresh or Acina. We would just give a speech on either freedom, democracy and equality (and how Saresh has betrayed all those ideals) or strength, loyalty and unity (and how Acina is weak). The public wold revolt and the governments will have to obey. Even if those two send troops to arrest us, it's not like they could really do that (those four characters are extremely powerful), those soldiers would be easily incapacitated or killed.

[Codedrago]

I think the Hero of Tython's, Barsenthor's, Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox's influence and opinion sways far more people than either Saresh or Acina. We would just give a speech on either freedom, democracy and equality (and how Saresh has betrayed all those ideals) or strength, loyalty and unity (and how Acina is weak). The public wold revolt and the governments will have to obey. Even if those two send troops to arrest us, it's not like they could really do that (those four characters are extremely powerful), those soldiers would be easily incapacitated or killed.

You overestimate our characters reputation, hell,the Wrath is in the worst position here as he used to be the personal exercutioner of a known traitor.

[casirabit]

I think the Hero of Tython's, Barsenthor's, Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox's influence and opinion sways far more people than either Saresh or Acina. We would just give a speech on either freedom, democracy and equality (and how Saresh has betrayed all those ideals) or strength, loyalty and unity (and how Acina is weak). The public wold revolt and the governments will have to obey. Even if those two send troops to arrest us, it's not like they could really do that (those four characters are extremely powerful), those soldiers would be easily incapacitated or killed.

 

The problem you are forgetting how the public (in the republic) blamed the Jedi for the attack on Corscuant and then got upset/angry when the Jedi left Corscuant and went to Tython. Yes, it has been awhile but as you stated before it hasn't been hundreds or thousands of years and people have extremely long memories when they "perceive" wrong doings. A lot of the public "perceive" the Jedi with suspicion so it would not be as easily as you assume to convince the pubic to revolt.

 

As far as the Sith are concern most of the public know about the sith infighting among themselves and they would particularly not want to become involved either way as they would figure no matter what side they took they could be killed for taking the wrong side.

[TheAresian]

While the force using PCs on both sides were highly respected with their respective force using communities, I'm not sure that any of them held great sway with the masses in general. In fact, the only one of the 8 that would be held in esteem by the public would be the trooper. The agent worked in the shadows for Imperial Intelligence, the Bounty Hunter seems to have no loyalty outside of the Mandalorians and credits, Darth Nox disappears before the Dark Council of which he was a member was routed in battle by the Eternal Empire and the Wrath, as previously stated by another poster, was the personal executioner of a rogue lunatic Emperor.

 

As for the others, the Hero of Tython saved the Jedi Order and killed the Emperor, but there is nothing I can recall that ever publicly declared him specifically as the one that struck down the Emperor (There is a cut scene in RotHC that mentions a strike team). Barsen'thor is a title in the order, but not an award of the Republic. The Smuggler saves himself more than the Republic, leaving only the Trooper, head of the Havoc Squad put on the shelf as their many public victories made them too high profile for work. (Note: As none of these events take place after SoR, I have not used spoiler tags. My apologies if I am wrong regarding their absence)

 

It could be the onset of senility, but it seems to me that so much of what happens in spoken of as hints and implications rather than facts. For instance,

Satele speaks of the scars from seeing the Eternal Throne, but I can't recall any mention of any actual combat, let alone with either Arcann or Vaylin. Marr says he found Satele on Odessen after her self-imposed exile,

(erring on the side of caution) but he never says anything about where he was after his death, but before he found her. It seems to me, as the Wrath often says, "Some elaboration is required."

 

I say this last thing even though I have enjoyed the story a great deal:

 

If that elaboration never takes place, huge pieces of the story are left for the players to write themselves which, for me at least, doesn't make it a bad story, but rather a story badly told.