Why did Bioware allow others to see the player's achievement?

[Slowpokeking]

My guilds(see signarture) run nightly raids. We also have 3 going on 5 progression teams with more planned to form in the next couple of months. Guild raiding is where it's at now. Used to be I pugged more than I raided with guild. Now finding a pug group, even with the achieves is becoming increasingly difficult, but I can still count on at least 1 raid per night on either faction with my guilds.

 

Doesn't matter, even at 2.0 and 3.0, top ops were only run by less than 10% of the people and the number surely is getting lower now.

 

No, achievements haven't become a tool to block people. You could still do the same thing I did, when I got mine, or you could join a guild, or you could form your own prog team... ect.

 

Achievements are a tool for PuG leaders to try to sort folks and figure out how has some idea of how mechanics works. It means less headaches of needing to kick someone from a pug run when they show up and are clearly incompetent.

 

If I want a fast gearing run, like when I'm running alts through priority HMs trying to get that delicious 224 gear, yeah I don't want to spend 200-500k wiping to teach a newbie how to run an op. That's not why I'm there.

 

Will I take inexperienced folks along on prog runs? Sure so long as they are willing to come onto Team Speak with the prog team and listen to tactics.

 

As has been said, you can always form your own group. Sit on guild and shout for a group. Is it hard? Does it take time? Yes to both, but hey that is the nature of pug ops these days. Took me over an hr to put together a DF group for group finder the other day, and that was with it giving massive conquest rewards.

 

PUG ops are simply a dying animal in the current climate where there has been no new content in going on 2yrs.

Yes it is, to stop people from doing something because they haven't done it, which is a big blow to the new player groups.

 

That's not the case, both guild runs and pug ops are going down due to no new ops. And why there is no new ops? Because too few people are doing them. If new players find it difficult to get in, this is just going to be a closed dead circle.

[Jamtas]

Then those guilds usually don't make much progress to HM because it's not really their focus. If you are on small server the problem is going to be bigger.

 

But many people didn't get their achievement that way. Lots of them were new and were carried by old guild members or beat the content with other guild's help. Some of them got theirs through pug run as well.

 

This is the problem, the overall raid community, was never a big part of the overall population, this is WHY Bioware had stopped to develop new ops. And this community, especially the guild run is keep dwindling due to raiders left because of no new ops. In this situation, if new players who are interested in ops, could not be accepted by a large part of the already niche community, then how it is not going to be a closed circle and cause the community to keep getting smaller? And there is no solution because you can't finish something without doing it. How is it not a problem?

 

are you asking for a way to learn the hm fights, or wanting to have a team of those with the achievement walk you through the op so you can earn the achievement as well?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Jamtas

[beattlebilly]

Yes it is, to stop people from doing something because they haven't done it, which is a big blow to the new player groups.

 

Other than not being invited to the groups that want experienced players, how are they being stopped from doing something because they haven't done it? If they aren't finding a group to suit their needs, they have the same exact ability to form groups as those that they can't join in on.

[Slowpokeking]

Oh, so because it's hard to do/find, it's non-existent? I think it's you that doesn't understand. If you don't like the way others are doing something, do it yourself. You said you've done it before, so apparently it can be done. Stop expecting others to do for you. The effort you're putting into the forums, just imagine if you were focusing that effort on forming your own HM OPs, or helping others through their HM OPs?

 

Because not everyone was carried, so why should they feel they have to carry others? They got their experience by actually DOING it, not expecting people to carry them through. So why should they be forced to carry, or made to feel like jackwagons if they don't?

Because it could be done doesn't mean it's the way to go, the difficulty will drive off people and deliver a blow to the whole community. Otherwise why do we have quick travel? We could run back, Why do we have GF? Couldn't we just find FP groups on fleet? This is a game, if it's not friendly to players, it's going to drive people off. THIS is why the raid community is so small and keep getting smaller.

 

This is group content, how could you do without others do it for you? Pls link a video of you soloing these content.

 

Wait, how are they doing it if they are not carried through? Everyone starts out as a newbie.

 

 

 

:confused: If they were a group of people out there doing it for 6-8 hours at a time, and suffering miserable wipes, HTF is that "being carried"?

 

If you aren't willing to put forth the effort, why are you even concerned about HM OPs?

So people without achievement would not try it that way, to learn their experience through wipes?

 

Because it's additional effort that has nothing to do with the content itself?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

are you asking for a way to learn the hm fights, or wanting to have a team of those with the achievement walk you through the op so you can earn the achievement as well?

 

I want to learn the fights, but I want to spend my effort on the content itself, not non-related issue like group finding and socialize.

 

What dos "carried" mean? People are inexperienced and might cause some wipes in the beginning, but if they are willing to learn from that and help the group to go through. How is being "carried"?

[Khiriath]

Doesn't matter, even at 2.0 and 3.0, top ops were only run by less than 10% of the people and the number surely is getting lower now.

I'm sorry I was pretty sure that BW never released its metrics on the numbers of players who partook in HM/NiM ops. Could you please link these numbers for the rest of us? If not please drop this line of argument as it is purely speculative with nothing substantial to back it up.

 

 

Yes it is, to stop people from doing something because they haven't done it, which is a big blow to the new player groups.

No really its not. But you keep repeating this like a broken record so... have fun with it.

 

That's not the case, both guild runs and pug ops are going down due to no new ops. And why there is no new ops? Because too few people are doing them. If new players find it difficult to get in, this is just going to be a closed dead circle.

Again you have no substantial proof that the reason there are no new ops is that too few people doing them.

 

The only metric that BW has released is the number of people that take part in ranked pvp. Last season it was 18k out of 3.5 million subscribers. That is less that less than half a percent of total players. Yet 2 new PvP arenas were released, so even if only 10-15% of the subscriber population took part as you claim, clearly 0.5% is enough to garner development work, 20-30 times that many players would surely do so...

[Slowpokeking]

Other than not being invited to the groups that want experienced players, how are they being stopped from doing something because they haven't done it? If they aren't finding a group to suit their needs, they have the same exact ability to form groups as those that they can't join in on.

 

Plus people would not join your group if you or a few members haven't done it, which increase the difficulty to form a group?

Plus raid guilds prefer experienced players, especially tanks?

 

Raid community(other than EV and KP HM) is already very niche and it never has been big, if new players are having further trouble finding groups, it's going to affect the whole community badly. People are blaming Bioware for not making new ops, but they didn't see that they stopped it because too few people were doing them.

[Jadescythe]

And how many of them are making progression in HM/NIM? Remember even in 2.0 cycle, there were only less than 5% were doing the newest NIM operation.

 

At least 1 pub guild on harb. I'm not actively raiding with them, but they continue to take more people and fill groups. They have groups in ranges from Sm ops to gear out for HM content to groups trying to down Revan and move to NiM.

 

It's true that the top guilds generally aren't recruiting, but it's because they have 8 people and don't want to expand. Raiding is primarily about having a good time and the means you have to like the people you raid with. If you find that group, there is no need to expand unless you want to and no one should be forced to take anyone into content. It's your job as a player to find people who have the same mindset as you and want to do the content you like in the way you enjoy doing it. I'm not sure why you are singling out players for enjoying the game in their own way.

[KyaniteD]

I want to learn the fights, but I want to spend my effort on the content itself, not non-related issue like group finding and socialize.

 

Hm, that may be a problem. Because wiping costs time and credits and it goes over easier if you're a likable person making an effort.*

 

 

* Hint: Demands and entitlement with regard to what other players should or shouldn't do during their payed playtime is not the way.

Edited May 2, 2016 by KyaniteD

[Slowpokeking]

I'm sorry I was pretty sure that BW never released its metrics on the numbers of players who partook in HM/NiM ops. Could you please link these numbers for the rest of us? If not please drop this line of argument as it is purely speculative with nothing substantial to back it up.

 

Just look at the progression threads of NIM in 2.0.

 

I did a research before.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=756926

 

The most popular server Harbinger's data, around 25 guild were trying DF and DP NIM in the end of the 2.0 circle, 10 had gone through

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=740378

 

Bastion

 

Most of them were doing 8 men instead of 16 men

 

Let's say there are 150 guilds who were trying them and less than 50 have beaten NIM. So it's around1500- 2000 people and 500 of them have beaten it.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/18/r...-has-over-770/

 

At that time, SWTOR is the 4th biggest sub based MMO, above ESO, ESO got over 770k subs, SWTOR surely got more, plus the f2p players.

 

Over the 800 K players, 2000 of them have tried it and 500 have beaten it, so it's less than 3% of the entire popluation

 

 

 

 

 

Again you have no substantial proof that the reason there are no new ops is that too few people doing them.

 

The only metric that BW has released is the number of people that take part in ranked pvp. Last season it was 18k out of 3.5 million subscribers. That is less that less than half a percent of total players. Yet 2 new PvP arenas were released, so even if only 10-15% of the subscriber population took part as you claim, clearly 0.5% is enough to garner development work, 20-30 times that many players would surely do so...

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/03/02/swtor-operation-victory-tournament-canceled/

 

They made it so clear that they got to cancel the tournament.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8060769#edit8060769

 

First, it was a numbers game. Only a fraction of the players who are in Ops at 60 are in ToS and so we wanted to make sure the first round was accessible to as many people as possible. Second, our plan was that the finals (the second round) would be played in ToS so that the Revan encounter was a part of the tournament finale.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[beattlebilly]

These raids have been out for a very long time. Yes, there's new players that haven't done it yet, BUT there's old players who have that have made guides and videos. If you aren't getting invited to groups, form your own groups. NOTHING is stopping you from doing the HM OPs but yourself.

[Slowpokeking]

These raids have been out for a very long time. Yes, there's new players that haven't done it yet, BUT there's old players who have that have made guides and videos. If you aren't getting invited to groups, form your own groups. NOTHING is stopping you from doing the HM OPs but yourself.

 

Doesn't change the fact that you have no achievement, that is the problem.

 

Yes, nothing is changing you from get the FP group, so we didn't need group finder? It is stopping people, because it's group content, you need to get a group.

[Slowpokeking]

Hm, that may be a problem. Because wiping costs time and credits and it goes over easier if you're a likable person making an effort.*

 

 

* Hint: Demands and entitlement with regard to what other players should or shouldn't do during their payed playtime is not the way.

 

And those players didn't wipe with cost of time and credits to learn the content?

 

But this is group content, other players' attitude matters to the community, this isn't solo content.

[beattlebilly]

Doesn't change the fact that you have no achievement, that is the problem.

 

Yes, nothing is changing you from get the FP group, so we didn't need group finder? It is stopping people, because it's group content, you need to get a group.

 

Then FORM YOUR OWN GROUPS THAT DON'T REQUIRE ACHIEVEMENTS. The only thing stopping you or the others that don't have achievements from doing the HM OPs is yourselves. You've already said it can be done, just because it's hard to do doesn't mean it's impossible. Stop wasting your time and efforts on whining on the forums, and go apply that effort in-game.

 

But this is group content, other players' attitude matters to the community, this isn't solo content.

So take your own advice there

Edited May 2, 2016 by beattlebilly

[Slowpokeking]

At least 1 pub guild on harb. I'm not actively raiding with them, but they continue to take more people and fill groups. They have groups in ranges from Sm ops to gear out for HM content to groups trying to down Revan and move to NiM.

 

It's true that the top guilds generally aren't recruiting, but it's because they have 8 people and don't want to expand. Raiding is primarily about having a good time and the means you have to like the people you raid with. If you find that group, there is no need to expand unless you want to and no one should be forced to take anyone into content. It's your job as a player to find people who have the same mindset as you and want to do the content you like in the way you enjoy doing it. I'm not sure why you are singling out players for enjoying the game in their own way.

Even if they recruit, most of the raid guild would prefer people with experience.

 

See, like I have said, the raid community is already small and keep getting smaller. if a large part of it does not welcome new players, it's surely going to die since old players will get bored and leave or no longer have the time to raid anymore due to RL. This is going to be a dead circle, not enough players to raid(other than easily puggable content)=no new ops, no new ops=fewer and fewer players go raid.

[hunterlue]

Plus people would not join your group if you or a few members haven't done it, which increase the difficulty to form a group?

 

WAT??????

 

you say for urself that in your opinion its so unfair to players that people require achievements, so just FORM YOUR OWN with no requirement, by YOUR OWN LOGIC this group would be filled in no time because elitists who want achievements wont join, but the people without it will join in a second because there is finally someone who is willing to take them. you say yourself those people are the majority.

 

you can now have fun wiping with 7 inexperienced players, have fun

[Slowpokeking]

Then FORM YOUR OWN GROUPS THAT DON'T REQUIRE ACHIEVEMENTS. The only thing stopping you or the others that don't have achievements from doing the HM OPs is yourselves. You've already said it can be done, just because it's hard to do doesn't mean it's impossible. Stop wasting your time and efforts on whining on the forums, and go apply that effort in-game.

 

 

So take your own advice there

 

And like I've said, it's going to increase difficulty as well since

The overall raid community is already very small other than the easily puggable SM and EV/KP HM.

With such limit, it would be very very hard to find groups.

 

Just because it's not impossible doesn't mean it should not change, why didn't you get it? Few players would want to spend such effort to get into the community, and without new blood, this already niche community will keep get smaller, since it's group content, it's going to affect them all.

[Slowpokeking]

WAT??????

 

you say for urself that in your opinion its so unfair to players that people require achievements, so just FORM YOUR OWN with no requirement, by YOUR OWN LOGIC this group would be filled in no time because elitists who want achievements wont join, but the people without it will join in a second because there is finally someone who is willing to take them. you say yourself those people are the majority.

 

you can now have fun wiping with 7 inexperienced players, have fun

 

Because raiders are already very small community, if a large part will not join, it's going to cause problem.

 

So you started out as a experienced player rather than a newbie? You didn't learn the ops through wipes and repair costs? WHY DID YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY OTHERS' CHANCE TO LEARN IT LIKE YOU DID???

[Jamtas]

Because raiders are already very small community, if a large part will not join, it's going to cause problem.

 

So you started out as a experienced player rather than a newbie? You didn't learn the ops through wipes and repair costs? WHY DID YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY OTHERS' CHANCE TO LEARN IT LIKE YOU DID???

 

here's where i think the disconnect is. You keep assuming everyone else grouped with a team of experienced who took them through the fights. I think what a lot of us are telling you is we made up our own groups and learned the fights on our own.

 

EDIT: With help from guides like dulfy and videos from others who posted their team's fights. "Doing homework before the raid" as we like to say.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Jamtas

[Jadescythe]

Even if they recruit, most of the raid guild would prefer people with experience.

 

See, like I have said, the raid community is already small and keep getting smaller. if a large part of it does not welcome new players, it's surely going to die since old players will get bored and leave or no longer have the time to raid anymore due to RL. This is going to be a dead circle, not enough players to raid(other than easily puggable content)=no new ops, no new ops=fewer and fewer players go raid.

 

Now you are just stereotyping. "Guilds won't take people without experience" is not a correct statement just because some won't. It may just be some groups within a guild. An employer may be looking for experienced or new hires depending on the position they need filled. If I have a group running NiM content, I'm not looking for someone with no HM experience that is going to reset their progress. If I have a group just gearing up, then an experienced player may not be happy running SM or easy HM content during that process and would be better fit in another group.

 

Most players, however, are not interested in wiping for multiple hours to teach a random person HM content. MANY players will be willing to do this for a guildy. You may be working with the wrong guilds if this isn't the case.

[Slowpokeking]

here's where i think the disconnect is. You keep assuming everyone else grouped with a team of experienced who took them through the fights. I think what a lot of us are telling you is we made up our own groups and learned the fights on our own.

 

Not everyone else, but a large percent of them because these ops are very old, most of the current active players have not played when they came out. And many current guild form with experienced old players+ newbies. Many of them also ask for other guilds' help.

 

This doesn't matter either. Like I have said before, the raid community is already small and keep getting smaller. If you reject new players, it's just going to damage the entire community and form a dead circle. Even if you are in a guild, these raid members can't stay forever, they are going to quit raid or quit the game someday. Without enough new blood it's going to be bad.

[Slowpokeking]

Now you are just stereotyping. "Guilds won't take people without experience" is not a correct statement just because some won't. It may just be some groups within a guild. An employer may be looking for experienced or new hires depending on the position they need filled. If I have a group running NiM content, I'm not looking for someone with no HM experience that is going to reset their progress. If I have a group just gearing up, then an experienced player may not be happy running SM or easy HM content during that process and would be better fit in another group.

And "some" is enough since the overall raid community is small enough already. If "some guilds" and "many pugs" would not take new players, how is it not going to be tough for them to fit in?

 

Most players, however, are not interested in wiping for multiple hours to teach a random person HM content. MANY players will be willing to do this for a guildy. You may be working with the wrong guilds if this isn't the case.

How many? Even in 3.0 there were only a fraction of people were doing level 60 HM ops. Now the community is getting even smaller due to no new ops. How "many" are there if we minus the pugs and those guild that does not accept inexperienced players?

[hunterlue]

Because raiders are already very small community, if a large part will not join, it's going to cause problem.

 

So you started out as a experienced player rather than a newbie? You didn't learn the ops through wipes and repair costs? WHY DID YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY OTHERS' CHANCE TO LEARN IT LIKE YOU DID???

 

NO I SEARCHED FOR A FCKING GUILD TO GUIDE ME TROUGH IT(why did you start to type in allcaps btw ***?!?!?), i do not expect random people that dont know me to waste their time trying to teach me stuff.

 

and dont come with your dumb excuse that guilds only take experienced players, that is so blatantly wrong i dont even know what to say anymore

 

Just like in real life im not going to teach a random person asking me if i can show him how to play football to compete in my leauge, there a plenty of clubs (guilds here) that will teach you how to play football.

 

however if that random reallife person is asking me to teach him how to play football for a amount of money worthy my time, i will gladly teach him, because i have something to gain from it.

 

Its the same in this game.

 

Join a guild and they will teach you. dont want to? PAY players to take you into ops and teach you.

 

it is that simple

[beattlebilly]

And like I've said, it's going to increase difficulty as well since

The overall raid community is already very small other than the easily puggable SM and EV/KP HM.

With such limit, it would be very very hard to find groups.

 

Just because it's not impossible doesn't mean it should not change, why didn't you get it? Few players would want to spend such effort to get into the community, and without new blood, this already niche community will keep get smaller, since it's group content, it's going to affect them all.

 

Well then, get off your *** and get those new players in the OPs, put forth your effort to help grow the community a bit more. Whining on the forums isn't going to help.

 

What needs to change? The people that want as clean a run as possible are going to exist regardless if we can view and display achievements or not. Blocking the ability to view and display achievements isn't going to solve anything. You know what will? Getting off your *** and encouraging others to group up in learning OPs groups. Throwing fits isn't going to do anything but make matters worse.

[Jamtas]

Not everyone else, but a large percent of them because these ops are very old, most of the current active players have not played when they came out. And many current guild form with experienced old players+ newbies. Many of them also ask for other guilds' help.

 

This doesn't matter either. Like I have said before, the raid community is already small and keep getting smaller. If you reject new players, it's just going to damage the entire community and form a dead circle. Even if you are in a guild, these raid members can't stay forever, they are going to quit raid or quit the game someday. Without enough new blood it's going to be bad.

 

So again we are at an impasse. You're making an assumption that most guilds will not take players not experienced and in my experience that is not true at all. Guilds are advertising on fleet all day longlook for new members to join in on pvp/ops/(even gsf!)

 

But you don't seem to want to go that route, you want to do progression in a random pug group. And here why that is hard. Many groups that learn these fights don't complete the entire operation the first night as they are learning. And not every random assembled PUG group will have the ability to "seven man" the operation in the case that the PUG who doesn't know the fight and is learning, messes up and wipes the grup. (which is understandable as most don't hop into a new operation and fly through it).

 

So that is why a lot of the folks looking to get a speed run and clear the entire operation want to take those who know the fights.

 

Now for my assumption, I'm guessing that you may have had issue with a recent highlighted HM denying you a chance at the OP. Now in addition to a speed run, there may just be jealously component where someone is assembling this group for a run at the 224 gear and doesn't want to have someone who was "carried" end up with the premium loot.

 

Whatever the reason, my advice is still the same. Try and join a guild for this - if you can't find one, post in your server's forums that you are looking for a guild to help teach you HM operations as you are interested in them and having trouble doing it in PUGs.

 

If you don't want to do that and your goal is to remove achievements from being visible, I'll respectively say I've said my piece.