Solution to negating premade advantage vs pugs.

[Raideen]

I have a solution to negate the unfair advantage that premades have over pugs.

 

As many of you know last week (and I believe the week before) people were not able to que for warzones inside of a party. This coupled with the new wz and quing with opposite faction players greatly randomized and balanced the playing field. Many of us had the best time in pvp that we have not seen in a long time, if ever in this game.

 

Today, that was fixed and people are once again allowed to que with their friends, and its been lose lose lose lose all day long for many puggers again, this is frustrating and not fun and frankly makes a lot of people want to find a new game to play. From a business perspective this is just bad and really needs to be resolved.

 

I do not begrudge people playing with friends. Nothing better than playing with friends..but we also need to consider how that advantage can affect those who choose to play solo.

 

As everyone knows, premade groups have better communication and some times gear checks and in the best cases composition checks (certain number of healers, tanks etc). This places people who solo que at a severe disadvantage which makes playing frustrating, not fun.

 

As everyone also knows, Bioware seems to not care about the frustration the PUG player takes on when facing a premade, either though the fact they will most likely lose and get less comms or that they will get focused by multiple people in any given confrontation with little chance to win. Regardless this is not fun for the solo quing player and in some cases causes that player to find a new game to play where some semblance of balance exists.

 

I have the golden solution that I do not think has ever been done in a game and its simple. It would require some balancing for sure, but it's a simple proposal.

 

I think we should allow premades to exist, I just feel that they should go against other premades. Of course the issue with this is that the premade group would have lenghy que times.

 

So. We do two things.

 

A. We make all pvp faction blended like the new warzone. This helps to pick people who que as solo players from both factions increases the chances of the random side you are placed on.

B. People who are in parties when they join will join as that full party, but they will be debuffed. The premade group will take lets say a 15% hit to all their stats decreasing the amount of damage they do and they amount of healing they do.

 

Currently the premade has an advantage though tactics and focus targeting, while a pug has no advantage. This system would allow for the pug to have a strength advantage that the premade would need to counter wiih team work and communication.

 

This helps to bring balance for PUGs, this makes that teamwork and competitive gameplay that premades so desperately desire come to fruition and with the cross faction blending this would help to keep premade groups from solo quing at the same time and getting onto the same side vs a true pug.

 

Of course, like the current system it will be exploited somehow, but these are good steps at realizing a true balanced scenario for all players reglardless of the class you choose and your play style.

 

 

The other solution is to force people into a voice chat when playing....and that will go over like a lead balloon.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Raideen

[Volthammer]

Just personally speaking, I play on Harbinger and I almost never see full 8 man premades. Granted, I play late at night. The most people from one guild I ever see together is 3 at a time. That leaves me and the one or two guildies I'm grouped with and the rest pugs (as far as anyone knows. They could be grouped as well).

 

In these situations it by no means guarantees a win for our side. Unlike other MMO's I've been in where entire groups would be from the same guild and true pemades.

[Raideen]

Just personally speaking, I play on Harbinger and I almost never see full 8 man premades. Granted, I play late at night. The most people from one guild I ever see together is 3 at a time. That leaves me and the one or two guildies I'm grouped with and the rest pugs (as far as anyone knows. They could be grouped as well).

 

In these situations it by no means guarantees a win for our side. Unlike other MMO's I've been in where entire groups would be from the same guild and true pemades.

 

I understand and respect that, but this game has very small groups of people in pvp, vs wow which has 10v10 up to 40v40 a small party does not make a large difference. In SWTOR, even a small band of 3 can change the tide of a battle with an extreme advantage.

 

I do not propose the entire side gets a debuff, just people in parties. It is much easier to communicate through speech like a lot of friends or premades use than it is to type things out while you are getting your *** kicked outside of the fact the rate at which messages race through the chat box. Most people in combat don't have time to look up and read, this is where voice communication comes in handy.

 

Any added benefit that allows a group of people to move as a unit vs a group of people who can do is unfair. Unfair gameplay might be fun for the person who is winning, but its completely not fun for the person losing. Its not much different than the feeling you get when playing against people who exploit or hack. Its an unfair advantage.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Raideen

[JouerTue]

comms and valor are capped at 8 medals i think.

get friend and group up, even a group of two can make a huge difference.

there are a lot of threads about premades..your solution offers nothing new honestly, and will never be accepted by any player grouping to do regs.

[Sinaith]

As many of you know last week (and I believe the week before) people were not able to que for warzones inside of a party.

 

 

lol what?

Edited April 19, 2016 by Sinaith

[Raideen]

comms and valor are capped at 8 medals i think.

get friend and group up, even a group of two can make a huge difference.

there are a lot of threads about premades..your solution offers nothing new honestly, and will never be accepted by any player grouping to do regs.

 

 

You clearly miss the point. Many people do not want to play with friends and there are a gazillion reasons why and none of them have anything to do with being anti social.

 

I agree a couple people in a group can make a difference, that is the crux of the issue. Team vs Team should be balanced. My proposal does just that.

 

As far as not being accepted by players who just want to to regs, I believe you incorrect. Anytime you offer something for free, in this case a buff for quing solo, many people will get behind the idea. I have already had people I have talked to who play this game agree and felt it was a stellar idea.

 

I am not sure why you seem to be so vehemently against the idea? Unless that is of course you are one of those who like to run in premades and who likes that advantage they have over the other team.

 

I am not like you, I believe in balance and fairness and so do most people.

[Raideen]

lol what?

 

There was an issue with the quing system that did not allow people in parties to que up and get the same warzone. This meant very very little premade action last week.

[Sinaith]

There was an issue with the quing system that did not allow people in parties to que up and get the same warzone. This meant very very little premade action last week.

 

didn't have any problem at all queueing groups. sometimes they'd bug out and you'd have to relog to queue tho

[Volthammer]

didn't have any problem at all queueing groups. sometimes they'd bug out and you'd have to relog to queue tho

 

You could group queue, it just would often take no less than 20 minutes for a WZ to pop. Often times 30 minutes to an hour.

[Raideen]

didn't have any problem at all queueing groups. sometimes they'd bug out and you'd have to relog to queue tho

 

Well it was a well known problem that many people faced.

 

I had the best time, today...every single match I have qued for has been a premade stomping the group I am in. EVERY SINGLE MATCH...do you realize the kind of frustration that occurs when that happens?

[Sinaith]

Well it was a well known problem that many people faced.

 

I had the best time, today...every single match I have qued for has been a premade stomping the group I am in. EVERY SINGLE MATCH...do you realize the kind of frustration that occurs when that happens?

 

get some friends and queue a group then

[Lhancelot]

The easiest thing they could do is simply make any group of 2+ have to enter a group queue for regs. Just make "solo" queue actually be a solo queue. It's not complicated.

 

If people want to group for PVP, that's cool. They simply should be placed into a "group" queue to do it. Premades would then fight premades.

 

Oh, so the queues are taking longer because there aren't many groups queing? That's too bad. Join the solo queue for faster pops then.

 

The only issue is, people would try to queue sync for solo like they already do with double premades.

 

If there was cross faction queues, queue syncing would be less successful because of a larger pool of players being randomized into teams...

 

Anyway. The game encourages premades and people to group, because unless you are in one, depending on RNGesus to give you a good PUG group is truly like winning the lottery, it's highly unlikely.

 

Facing premades as a solo queing player can be very frustrating so to avoid that, many end up joining premades of their own.

 

As many will tell you, dead horse beaten.

[kweassa]

1. People have a choice to make premades

 

2. People don't have any choice as to avoid fighting premades

 

3. Therefore, give people the choice to refuse fighting premades

 

= seperate the queues. Solos are always solos EXCLUSIVELY. Premades only fight oher premades, EXCLUSIVELY.

 

Problem solved. Everybody's happy.

[Teriaon]

So basically the suggestion here is to debuff people in a group because they have an advantage, to make it more fair for everyone. Well why not take it a step further, I mean if we want it to be compleatly fair for everyone we should also have a system that automatically debuffs the people who are doing the best, and buffs the people who are doing the worst, that way everyone can preform the same. You will never eliminate some people having an advantage in some way even if it is just being better, which I am by the way not saying that people in premades are better then people pugging, but yeah people will play with their friends, because it is more fun that way, which is the entier point of playing a game in the first place

[Icykill_]

Everyone says premades have an advantage because of voice chat... And they do "if" they use it.

But let me tell you, most don't use it or don't use it for that. If they are in regs in a premade they are mostly talking s*it to each other. The only premades on voice that I know of that use it to coordinate and take it seriously are the mid skilled teir players who are still learning.

I run guild premade, random premades and I never use voice chat. But because I play with people who have as much skill or more than me we have an advantage because we actually know what we are doing. We know more advanced tactics, we aren't sheep, we know all our class abilities and the other classes, we know how to all focus a target, how to prioritise targets, can read a map and lastly have situational awareness.

We could all queue solo and get on the same team and it would be no different to us in a premade. Even getting grouped with multiple skilled players is a defacto Premade.

The only way to counter premades in pugs is to get better as more skilled player will always beat you in they are together, they don't need groups to do it.

Myself and many others had to grind match after match against much better players till we got better. It's actually playing with and against these guys that you learn. Watch what they do, follow their instructions, don't argue with them when they suggest an alternative tactic that is different to what all the sheep use. Also watch how they global you, did that happen because they all focused you at once or because you were out of position. Are they doing it because you don't know how to counter that class because you don't know the class abilities.

If people actually did as much research online as they do whining about premades, they may actually learn something to make them better players.

Lastly, try and befriend some of these better players. Ask for advice or even see if you can join a PVP orientated guild that can teach you or help you hone your skills.

Even if you are in a social or mixed guild, try and organise your PVP guys to practice dual on your guild ships while you wait for PVP pops. Being able to 1v1 can help you learn your class better, but also give you an insight into the other classes you face.

[Icykill_]

The easiest thing they could do is simply make any group of 2+ have to enter a group queue for regs. Just make "solo" queue actually be a solo queue. It's not complicated.

 

If people want to group for PVP, that's cool. They simply should be placed into a "group" queue to do it. Premades would then fight premades.

 

Oh, so the queues are taking longer because there aren't many groups queing? That's too bad. Join the solo queue for faster pops then.

 

The only issue is, people would try to queue sync for solo like they already do with double premades.

 

If there was cross faction queues, queue syncing would be less successful because of a larger pool of players being randomized into teams...

 

Anyway. The game encourages premades and people to group, because unless you are in one, depending on RNGesus to give you a good PUG group is truly like winning the lottery, it's highly unlikely.

 

Facing premades as a solo queing player can be very frustrating so to avoid that, many end up joining premades of their own.

 

As many will tell you, dead horse beaten.

 

I understand your point of view, believe me it was a nightmare at launch running solo. If they were ever going to impliment split queues, that was the time.

But as you know we have such a diminished population now that splitting queues would be detrimental to PVP pop times.

Should the queue system try and put groups against groups if they are all in a queue together? Of course it should, it would be awesome for us in premades to play other groups. But we know that Bio either can't be bothered or don't have the technical skill required to make this work. I mean they can't even balance solo only games that are the same faction vs same faction. You have to love those imp v imp matches with 4 healers, a tank and 3 DPS against all DPS,

An idea that just popped into my mind while typing this, might be to offer incentives to form random pug groups. ie, make it a daily to play 1-3 WZs in a group and also have a weekly one of some sort. Obviously I haven't fleshed out this idea as it only just came to me. But with some thought and adjustments it could possibly work to encourage more group play and cooperation. People may even form friendships, alliances or just have some PVP associates to group with.

That can only be good for a game that is all about a social group experience.

[jenlen]

Well it was a well known problem that many people faced.

 

I had the best time, today...every single match I have qued for has been a premade stomping the group I am in. EVERY SINGLE MATCH...do you realize the kind of frustration that occurs when that happens?

 

Yes and it is driving people out of playing warzones, but the "I just wanna play with my friendddssss!" whiners don't care if it destroys pvp. All they care about is winning. And not winning like, a close match but we pulled it off! No. They want to obliterate the other team. That is why they group queue with FOTM classes, or at the least 1 healer and 3 dps, and refuse to even consider a split queue for regs.

 

I've played both ways, many times, grouped and solo. I'd much rather see split queues, just to keep things interesting and challenging without the facerolls we see now.

[Lhancelot]

I understand your point of view, believe me it was a nightmare at launch running solo. If they were ever going to impliment split queues, that was the time.

But as you know we have such a diminished population now that splitting queues would be detrimental to PVP pop times.

Should the queue system try and put groups against groups if they are all in a queue together? Of course it should, it would be awesome for us in premades to play other groups. But we know that Bio either can't be bothered or don't have the technical skill required to make this work. I mean they can't even balance solo only games that are the same faction vs same faction. You have to love those imp v imp matches with 4 healers, a tank and 3 DPS against all DPS,

An idea that just popped into my mind while typing this, might be to offer incentives to form random pug groups. ie, make it a daily to play 1-3 WZs in a group and also have a weekly one of some sort. Obviously I haven't fleshed out this idea as it only just came to me. But with some thought and adjustments it could possibly work to encourage more group play and cooperation. People may even form friendships, alliances or just have some PVP associates to group with.

That can only be good for a game that is all about a social group experience.

 

I honestly am very neutral on this topic, because I have been a solo queue kind of guy 90% of the time I played on swtor. You can ask anyone that I have grouped with in the past too, they know me as generally guildless and as a solo queuer.

 

Thing is, I have grouped for PVP and understand why people group.

 

I never found my social needs met through PVP on this game, so you will never hear me say, "I want to group with my friends!" I have joined groups for PVP primarily to raise the chance that I am on a team that is competitive. If the group I join has people I like a lot and I have come to befriend, that's great but, I never really went looking to make friends on swtor. I just always liked PVP games first and foremost.

 

On this game, if you solo queue and rely on RNG to put your team together you usually will be disappointed with who you get on your team. You are leaving it up to luck to grant you a team with good class comp AND skilled players.

 

Frankly, asking so much of luck is silly. Anyone that solo queues and gets angry that they are steamrolled need to understand the system and how the devs created it. Do not be angry at players who create premades.

 

On a side note, I also NEVER use VOIP even in guild premades that I have been part of in the past. Even without VOIP we typically held significant advantages over pugs in the majority of the matches, because of our overall skill level, not our highly sophisticated form of communication, which in my case only relied upon chat just like any PUG team.

 

Point is, there are good reasons why a solo queue should only have true solo queued players. It would eliminate a full PUG team being matched against a premade or double premade, which does occur often. It would basically allocate teams with members not in a premade who may/or may not be using VOIP.

 

In the past, I'd have been fine with a true solo queue option, and a group queue option for regs.

 

Dead horse beaten. Never going to happen though. People who rail against premades in regs will be fighting this fight till the game dies.

[Telurian]

Everyone says premades have an advantage because of voice chat... And they do "if" they use it.

But let me tell you, most don't use it or don't use it for that. If they are in regs in a premade they are mostly talking s*it to each other. The only premades on voice that I know of that use it to coordinate and take it seriously are the mid skilled teir players who are still learning.

I run guild premade, random premades and I never use voice chat. But because I play with people who have as much skill or more than me we have an advantage because we actually know what we are doing. We know more advanced tactics, we aren't sheep, we know all our class abilities and the other classes, we know how to all focus a target, how to prioritise targets, can read a map and lastly have situational awareness.

We could all queue solo and get on the same team and it would be no different to us in a premade. Even getting grouped with multiple skilled players is a defacto Premade.

The only way to counter premades in pugs is to get better as more skilled player will always beat you in they are together, they don't need groups to do it.

Myself and many others had to grind match after match against much better players till we got better. It's actually playing with and against these guys that you learn. Watch what they do, follow their instructions, don't argue with them when they suggest an alternative tactic that is different to what all the sheep use. Also watch how they global you, did that happen because they all focused you at once or because you were out of position. Are they doing it because you don't know how to counter that class because you don't know the class abilities.

If people actually did as much research online as they do whining about premades, they may actually learn something to make them better players.

Lastly, try and befriend some of these better players. Ask for advice or even see if you can join a PVP orientated guild that can teach you or help you hone your skills.

Even if you are in a social or mixed guild, try and organise your PVP guys to practice dual on your guild ships while you wait for PVP pops. Being able to 1v1 can help you learn your class better, but also give you an insight into the other classes you face.

 

Are you really that bad that you need to be carried by your team? Afraid of fair games?

Voice chat is a huge advanatge and if you say the groups are only talking trash I say that you are intentionally lying to make it look harmless. I have yet to meet a real premade that does not use voicechat. They will call incommigs, call target switches, tell teammates when to interruppt or CC the healer. You want an unfair game in your favor if you queue as a group. It simply does not matter if 4 players in your team are undergeared or bad as long as there are also bad players on the other team. You try to stack the odds in your favor that is the only reason to do "random premades" as you say. If you have 8 fully gearead good players and 8 bad players in the queue but 4 of the good players are in your premade you will end with 6 good and 2 bad palyers against 2 good and 6 bad players? Are those the odds you need to win?

You say that the queues are to empty to support a real single player queue -> did the idea that the groups and the unbalanced matches might be the reason why the queues are so empty ever cross you mind?

If am PVPing in this game since day one, have all advanced classes at least in one faction on 65 and do pvp with all of them. I stopped grouping in PVP for several reason: The main reason was that the matches were simply boring if we queued with a full group we won at least 19 out of 20 matches and in most cases those matches were totally onesided.

The cross faction BG without groups like it was in the last week was the most fun I had in a long time because the battlegrounds were fair and most matches at least interesting. Personal skill did matter and a single player could decide a match. If you need your group with healer and tank to win it might be you that needs to improve. Cross faction single player only queue with player randomisation to make sincing useless is the way to go for fun and interesting matches.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Telurian

[Xertasian]

basically after reading 2 pages of whining, what's the point. i solo que reg star wz's and i face premade teams. sometimes i win or sometimes i lose. the problem from all these threads people create. the premade team not the problem alot of times it is YOU.

 

meaning bioware or nobody can fix a crappy player. all premades are not good believe me on this point. sure they can use voice chat but if the group of 4 is bad then no matter of communication will fix it. everything in PVP come down to the person skill lvl.

 

bad players will find it hard in wz's rather they facing premades or all solo que people. from my understanding of doing PVP in this game from day one is that alot of bad players hope to get carried. sometimes you might get lucky but if you have 7 more people that suck then you know the outcome.

 

i seen alot of wz's against premades was lost from stupidity. capping nodes and leaving them or fighting away from node while somebody capping it. breaking somebody cc when they trying to cap a node. i can go on with the list but we get the point.

 

you come across some premade guilds that are very good. they pay there money monthly so we can't tell them how to play the game. really if you try to alienate the premades then who will we have to play in a wz. sitting around for hours waiting on ques. the game will surely die.

 

alot of you people want there cake and ice cream to eat. sorry you dont always get the things you want so you make a fuss. you have to remember premade or solo quer's somebody have to win and somebody have to lose. alot of people hate to lose but it happens.

 

i said enough so i leave with this message. before blaming others see if the problem is you. in order to solve any problem you find the source and alot of people hate to admit they is the source.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Xertasian
typo

[-Bob-]

basically after reading 2 pages of whining, what's the point. i solo que reg star wz's and i face premade teams. sometimes i win or sometimes i lose. the problem from all these threads people create. the premade team not the problem alot of times it is YOU.

 

meaning bioware or nobody can fix a crappy player. all premades are not good believe me on this point. sure they can use voice chat but if the group of 4 is bad then no matter of communication will fix it. everything in PVP come down to the person skill lvl.

 

bad players will find it hard in wz's rather they facing premades or all solo que people. from my understanding of doing PVP in this game from day one is that alot of bad players hope to get carried. sometimes you might get lucky but if you have 7 more people that suck then you know the outcome.

 

i seen alot of wz's against premades was lost from stupidity. capping nodes and leaving them or fighting away from node while somebody capping it. breaking somebody cc when they trying to cap a node. i can go on with the list but we get the point.

 

you come across some premade guilds that are very good. they pay there money monthly so we can't tell them how to play the game. really if you try to alienate the premades then who will we have to play in a wz. sitting around for hours waiting on ques. the game will surely die.

 

alot of you people want there cake and ice cream to eat. sorry you dont always get the things you want so you make a fuss. you have to remember premade or solo quer's somebody have to win and somebody have to lose. alot of people hate to lose but it happens.

 

i said enough so i leave with this message. before blaming others see if the problem is you. in order to solve any problem you find the source and alot of people hate to admit they is the source.

 

I like this guy^^

[Raideen]

basically after reading 2 pages of whining, what's the point. i solo que reg star wz's and i face premade teams. sometimes i win or sometimes i lose. the problem from all these threads people create. the premade team not the problem alot of times it is YOU.

 

meaning bioware or nobody can fix a crappy player. all premades are not good believe me on this point. sure they can use voice chat but if the group of 4 is bad then no matter of communication will fix it. everything in PVP come down to the person skill lvl.

 

bad players will find it hard in wz's rather they facing premades or all solo que people. from my understanding of doing PVP in this game from day one is that alot of bad players hope to get carried. sometimes you might get lucky but if you have 7 more people that suck then you know the outcome.

 

i seen alot of wz's against premades was lost from stupidity. capping nodes and leaving them or fighting away from node while somebody capping it. breaking somebody cc when they trying to cap a node. i can go on with the list but we get the point.

 

you come across some premade guilds that are very good. they pay there money monthly so we can't tell them how to play the game. really if you try to alienate the premades then who will we have to play in a wz. sitting around for hours waiting on ques. the game will surely die.

 

alot of you people want there cake and ice cream to eat. sorry you dont always get the things you want so you make a fuss. you have to remember premade or solo quer's somebody have to win and somebody have to lose. alot of people hate to lose but it happens.

 

i said enough so i leave with this message. before blaming others see if the problem is you. in order to solve any problem you find the source and alot of people hate to admit they is the source.

 

So, losing to concealment operatives most of the time (the best 1v1 class) as a merc means I am the bad player?!?!

 

I play just fine and I have carried many battlegrounds or warzones in my lifetime...as long as I am not against a premade. I can help a team that is lacking, but I cant do it against a premade.

 

This is not up for debate...the FACT FACT FACT IS THAT PREMADES HAVE A SEVERE ADVANTAGE OVER SOLO QING PLAYERS OR PUGS. There has been enough PVP "warzones" played on a number of games now over a period of 20 years now that absolutely PROOVE that premades have an unfair advantage vs the pugs.

 

What you CLEARLY fail to understand due to your incessant projections that "its not t he premade, its you" is that when players face premades, its more frustrating than fun....when someone is frustrated, they are not happy, when they are not happy (in this case) they stop playing the game. The FACT IS premades RUIN PVP and we are seeing it happen right before our eyes.

 

I have won against premades sure, many times....but no where NEAR as close to how many times I have lost to them.

 

But you know what buddy, I am trying to help revive the pvp community by addressing a very very seveer problem, but FU and everyone you know. My account is cancelled and I CANT WAIT to see this game shut down because bioware listens to morons like you vs taking some measures to solve the problems.

[kweassa]

basically after reading 2 pages of whining, what's the point. i solo que reg star wz's and i face premade teams. sometimes i win or sometimes i lose. the problem from all these threads people create. the premade team not the problem alot of times it is YOU.

 

meaning bioware or nobody can fix a crappy player. all premades are not good believe me on this point. sure they can use voice chat but if the group of 4 is bad then no matter of communication will fix it. everything in PVP come down to the person skill lvl.

 

bad players will find it hard in wz's rather they facing premades or all solo que people. from my understanding of doing PVP in this game from day one is that alot of bad players hope to get carried. sometimes you might get lucky but if you have 7 more people that suck then you know the outcome.

 

i seen alot of wz's against premades was lost from stupidity. capping nodes and leaving them or fighting away from node while somebody capping it. breaking somebody cc when they trying to cap a node. i can go on with the list but we get the point.

 

you come across some premade guilds that are very good. they pay there money monthly so we can't tell them how to play the game. really if you try to alienate the premades then who will we have to play in a wz. sitting around for hours waiting on ques. the game will surely die.

 

alot of you people want there cake and ice cream to eat. sorry you dont always get the things you want so you make a fuss. you have to remember premade or solo quer's somebody have to win and somebody have to lose. alot of people hate to lose but it happens.

 

i said enough so i leave with this message. before blaming others see if the problem is you. in order to solve any problem you find the source and alot of people hate to admit they is the source.

 

You still don't get it, do you.

 

It doesn't F-IN' matter who is good or not. It is a matter of PRINCIPLE.

 

Just which part of: WHEN PLAYING GAMES, EVEN OUT THE TEAMS FIRST do you exactly not understand?

 

You know why I keep mentioning the "playground analogy"? Because making fair teams is what even 5~6 year old kids do when they play with each other. Even kindergarten age children instinctively know what is fair or not. Kids playing on the playground take the simplest measure possible to ensure that teams are split up in a way everybody can enjoy the game fairly. They pick out the team leaders, and then the team leaders take turns pick one person. It's a simple, and yet amazingly effective principle which guarantees random distribution every time a game is played.

 

Frickin' 5~6 year olds know what this is, and why they do it, and how to do it, for crying out loud.

Edited April 21, 2016 by kweassa

[Xertasian]

You still don't get it, do you.

 

It doesn't F-IN' matter who is good or not. It is a matter of PRINCIPLE.

 

Just which part of: WHEN PLAYING GAMES, EVEN OUT THE TEAMS FIRST do you exactly not understand?

 

You know why I keep mentioning the "playground analogy"? Because making fair teams is what even 5~6 year old kids do when they play with each other. Even kindergarten age children instinctively know what is fair or not. Kids playing on the playground take the simplest measure possible to ensure that teams are split up in a way everybody can enjoy the game fairly. They pick out the team leaders, and then the team leaders take turns pick one person. It's a simple, and yet amazingly effective principle which guarantees random distribution every time a game is played.

 

Frickin' 5~6 year olds know what this is, and why they do it, and how to do it, for crying out loud.

 

i see the crux of the problem. i'm way old in my 60's almost. i growed up when you lose that was it. you learn from your mistake and get better. people like you born in this generation think when you lose still give you a trophy. from your post you are the people who want the cake and ice cream.

 

using playground analogy..you make teams fair as you say. somebody still must win and somebody will lose. you trying to say it where nobody loses and everybody is a winner. sorry friend it don't work that way and you don't live happily ever after.

 

from what this post come down to is sore losers whining. sorry to sound like a dic* but it need to be said. if you so hellbent on premades find a group and make your own. it not exclusive to only 1 set of people. if you don't want to do the premade thing. then you deal with the outcome of winning and losing in wz's.

 

about fairness unless they is hacking or exploiting all is fair in war. until you little tikes get over the fact of losing either cause you was outplayed or had a dumb team. then you can take it for what it's worth and not stress out. where you coming on forums crying about losing.

[Teriaon]

You still don't get it, do you.

 

It doesn't F-IN' matter who is good or not. It is a matter of PRINCIPLE.

 

Just which part of: WHEN PLAYING GAMES, EVEN OUT THE TEAMS FIRST do you exactly not understand?

 

You know why I keep mentioning the "playground analogy"? Because making fair teams is what even 5~6 year old kids do when they play with each other. Even kindergarten age children instinctively know what is fair or not. Kids playing on the playground take the simplest measure possible to ensure that teams are split up in a way everybody can enjoy the game fairly. They pick out the team leaders, and then the team leaders take turns pick one person. It's a simple, and yet amazingly effective principle which guarantees random distribution every time a game is played.

 

Frickin' 5~6 year olds know what this is, and why they do it, and how to do it, for crying out loud.

 

speaking as a kindergarden teacher you clearly havent met a lot of kindergardeners if you think the teams they come up with in that manner is always anywhere near fair xD