Ideas to make FP appealing again

[LudhaninRolgge]

As many of you have probably noticed, FP aren't really something that appeal to players anymore. So I've been thinking about some solutions for quite some times now. Those are just ideas and every bits of constructive criticism is welcome so if you have an idea or something, don't hesitate to come share it here.

First, I think SM FP should be reintroduced. They can keep tactical if they want, but what that'll mean is that they could rebalance the public each of them are trying to attain.

So we'd have tacticals for leveling. Same as now, no role requirement, some mechanics for you to learn the basics but not too much.

Then you'd have SM FP for everybody from 50 to 65 with bolster. You'd need a full trinity group for those one, but DPS and HPS requirements, damage output from mobs and mechanics are a bit less than those of HM. Dropping something like 208 or 216 MK-2 gear to start you off.

Then finally HM FP for 65 only. Still a full trinity group required, but DPS and HPS requirement, damage output from mobs and mechanics are closer to HM ops and require you to be at least 216 token and loot a 220 token on a lockout (the weekly quest would reward a token for example).

Of course, most bosses would need to be buffed so they're not faceroll as they are now.

It seems to me that it would be a way to create a new interest for HM FP for raiders. I know I'd do a lot more FP if that was the case.

Remember, that's just some ideas I had and If some of you have things you disagree or want to propose other ideas, I'll be happy to talk about that.

Edited April 15, 2016 by LudhaninRolgge

[Bandrashu]

Hello,

 

I think they are fine the way they are now.

 

The main reason behind introducing Tacticals was to make these FP's more frequent. Now you can run one with 4 dps and you do not have to wait for a tank and a healer as well.

 

Having the old system back would only increase queue times in my oppinion and that would make the whole situation worse.

[lilathrone]

In my opinion the current tactical policy is OK if executed correctly.

 

In my experience, the success rate of the tacticals highly depend on group composition. If you have 2, or 2+ lvl50+ players (or at least 1 healer) in the group, you will most likely succeed, but if you have a 4 dps group where all of them are ~lvl15-40ish, then it can become a nightmare. Bosses are easy if the group follows boss mechanics, but there are some difficult trash pulls where no matter how everyone use their CC or dcd abilities, 1-2 players will certainly die. Before 4.0, the tacticals were a cakewalk, post 4.0, they seem to be much more challenging (due to the fact that any lvl15+ can join).

 

I personally enjoyed better the SM trinity FP-s, but I'm ok with tacticals too, but only if they tune them right, so even a group with four low lvl dps could complete them without much frustration (more bolster for low lvls? idk).

[psandak]

IMO the best solution is to reintroduce level requirements for FPs because the biggest stumbling blocks are when lower level characters end up in what were the upper level FPs.

 

I am not saying segregate the population by level range. What I am saying is that a level 10-15 should not be put into any of the FPs that were originally designed for level 50+ (e.g. BoI, FE, Tion, LI, or any of the FA), they should be getting into Ess/BT, HS, and Athiss where their limited abilities are not a hindrance because those FPs were tuned for that level.

 

And it does not matter if the group is bolstered to 65 or they change it so the group is level synced to the max level of the FP. Because the point is to ensure a relatively high chance of success.

 

This however would mean that the "randomness" of the FPs selected for a given group through GF would probably end up being weighted toward the low end.

[Kcin_Trebla]

IMO the best solution is to reintroduce level requirements for FPs because the biggest stumbling blocks are when lower level characters end up in what were the upper level FPs.

 

I am not saying segregate the population by level range. What I am saying is that a level 10-15 should not be put into any of the FPs that were originally designed for level 50+ (e.g. BoI, FE, Tion, LI, or any of the FA), they should be getting into Ess/BT, HS, and Athiss where their limited abilities are not a hindrance because those FPs were tuned for that level.

 

And it does not matter if the group is bolstered to 65 or they change it so the group is level synced to the max level of the FP. Because the point is to ensure a relatively high chance of success.

 

This however would mean that the "randomness" of the FPs selected for a given group through GF would probably end up being weighted toward the low end.

 

I agree completely.

Imo the first thing that clashes is that low-level players don't even have the least character-skill requirements: missing the cc skill, healing options halved at the best, poor defense measures not to tell about buffs/de-buffs available to just 5 levels more advanced ones...

So Tactical FPs first need a good tuning up to let those characters to play without getting everyone in deep trouble, a simple bolster doesn't help to come out of things.

[lilathrone]

I don't think any change, fix or update is coming anytime soon regarding FP-s. They are like this since november(?), and despite of having countless threads on the matter, nothing changed. As I remember once BW said that they know there are problems with some bosses and fix is coming with 4.2(?) (idk for sure), but since then, nothing (at least that i know of). I think tacticals or fp-s in general are at the bottom of BW priority list as not that many ppl do them. But look at CM. You even have a tiny little bug there a hotfix is coming the other day.

 

Edit: This is the only and last update from devs regarding FPs.

"Hey follks,

 

The team is aware of issues relating to some Operation and Flashpoint bosses. We are currently looking to address these issues with Game Update 4.3 and will pass on any additional information as we have it.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric"

Edited April 18, 2016 by lilathrone

[LudhaninRolgge]

Hello,

 

I think they are fine the way they are now.

 

The main reason behind introducing Tacticals was to make these FP's more frequent. Now you can run one with 4 dps and you do not have to wait for a tank and a healer as well.

 

Having the old system back would only increase queue times in my oppinion and that would make the whole situation worse.

 

I'm not saying they should get rid of tacticals. But FP are less and less played. For example on my server, you sometimes have 1+h wait even as a healer or tank for HM. Granted it's not a high pop server, but still.

I'm just trying to look for solutions to make FP more appealing. As I said, they can keep tacticals, but a lot of players jump into HM without even knowing to play their class and it's a disaster which makes that less "good" players queue because they don't want to end-up with bad players.

Same goes for tacticals. Some players have lived real nightmare and don't want to queue for tactical ever again (me included).

That's a vicious circle. But by re-adding SM FP you give more choice. Players that like the trinity, but don't feel they have the level to do HM can queue, and do on.

[Thepyrethatburns]

What will fix it is:

 

1) We need group flashpoints back. This way, people can learn the FP and their role (DPS/Heals/Tank) in a level appropriate setting.

 

2) Hard Mode and Tacticals are not available to toons until they are are 60. Bolster just doesn't keep up and it drives people away either through wipes or kicks.

[Yorioko]

I think the easiest way to make FPs a bit more "fun" is at least to me in the more RPG sense.

When I RP I often use the FPs as "training Missions " etc.

But other than that yeah the FPs aren't really all that any more.

 

make FPs into "mini ops", with this I mean let the FPs have some relevant drops.

Also I would not be against a "new" mode which lets a player "link" a few FPs into a small story chain

[shleefin]

The simplest idea I can think of for improvement is to introduce an additional group finder tier of HM FP. I think most would agree that certain flashpoints are beyond the capabilities of bioware's bolster system. It's very unlikely that a random group of mixed 50-65 players can beat the first fight of Blood Hunt for example. So I propose simply making these FPs 65 only, no bolster, and last boss should reward a SM token to better compensate for the difficulty and encourage more play. These flashpoints are the primary one's I am thinking of for the new tier:

 

Blood Hunt (duh)

Battle of Rishi

Lost Island

 

Maybe throw in Depths of Manaan and Tython as well, although these are significantly easier than the above 3 imo. This kind of tiering actually used to exist btw. A long time ago Lost Island was on its own group finder tier, so this idea is not entirely original or without precedent. This would solve a couple of problems: 1) insta quits when Blood Hunt is selected, 2) Lack of challenge for good, well geared players in the "easier" flashpoints, 3) Lack of rewards. The trick is to make sure the rewards encourage enough play for the new tier.

[casirabit]

The only time I do fp is with my boyfriend and guild. I have no desire to run them with pugs.

[Jadescythe]

They need a purpose. As long as SM Ops are bolstered and give you 216s to start progression raiding, there is no reason to do a FP unless it is for story purposes or you only have 4 people.

[psandak]

They need a purpose. As long as SM Ops are bolstered and give you 216s to start progression raiding, there is no reason to do a FP unless it is for story purposes or you only have 4 people.

 

So

• conquest goals
  
• decorations
  
• currency specific to the FP (e.g. maanan research...yadda)
  
• reputation (in the case of KDY)
  
• achievements
  
• I know I am missing something
  

are not enough reasons to do FPs?

[Jadescythe]

So

• conquest goals
  
• decorations
  
• currency specific to the FP (e.g. maanan research...yadda)
  
• reputation (in the case of KDY)
  
• achievements
  
• I know I am missing something
  

are not enough reasons to do FPs?

 

Not to many players. I haven't done a FP since 4.0 dropped because it was left out of the gear progression. I could start outgearing it at level 50 in Ops, I just couldn't equip the gear. FPs used to be run all of the time because you needed the gear for Ops. That's also why there are so many more complaints about there being so many players who don't understand how FPs work. The experienced group players are all just doing Ops instead unless they are meeting a conquest goal.

[Crossward]

So

• conquest goals
  
• decorations
  
• currency specific to the FP (e.g. maanan research...yadda)
  
• reputation (in the case of KDY)
  
• achievements
  
• I know I am missing something
  

are not enough reasons to do FPs?

 

I'll agree with Jadescythe on this one, I have no desire to do flashpoints. I level to 65, use my comms to buy a mix of 208/216 gear from the vendor, then do KP/EV HM to get better gear, then jump headfirst into "real" HMs and NiMs.

 

Credits are easy enough that I can buy the decorations, I personally see no value in the achievements (if I want to brag about them I'll show off my HM/NiM stuff), and I personally feel the rep and currency rewards are underwhelming. I basically skip all the FPs and the SM ops.

 

Although I will say that if the reasons you mentioned are legitimate reasons to do flashpoints, that's fantastic. In that case, there's no reason to change the reward structure, since the ones you named are sufficient.

[LudhaninRolgge]

The simplest idea I can think of for improvement is to introduce an additional group finder tier of HM FP. I think most would agree that certain flashpoints are beyond the capabilities of bioware's bolster system. It's very unlikely that a random group of mixed 50-65 players can beat the first fight of Blood Hunt for example. So I propose simply making these FPs 65 only, no bolster, and last boss should reward a SM token to better compensate for the difficulty and encourage more play. These flashpoints are the primary one's I am thinking of for the new tier:

 

Blood Hunt (duh)

Battle of Rishi

Lost Island

 

Maybe throw in Depths of Manaan and Tython as well, although these are significantly easier than the above 3 imo. This kind of tiering actually used to exist btw. A long time ago Lost Island was on its own group finder tier, so this idea is not entirely original or without precedent. This would solve a couple of problems: 1) insta quits when Blood Hunt is selected, 2) Lack of challenge for good, well geared players in the "easier" flashpoints, 3) Lack of rewards. The trick is to make sure the rewards encourage enough play for the new tier.

 

That's why I think SM FP should be reintroduced. Make those SM FP for 50-65 with bolster and let HM FP for 65 only without bolster. Buff most HM FP too so they actually are a challenge and that way you'll have most people finding a reason to run them.

Tacticals for new player to experience them, SM FP for average player who enjoy the trinity system and HM FP for raid guilds. That way everybody is happy.

Give level appropriate gear as reward for Tacticals and SM, and a token for completing the HM weekly plus some kind of mat for the bonus and final bosses.

[Jedi_riches]

IMO the best solution is to reintroduce level requirements for FPs because the biggest stumbling blocks are when lower level characters end up in what were the upper level FPs.

 

I am not saying segregate the population by level range. What I am saying is that a level 10-15 should not be put into any of the FPs that were originally designed for level 50+ (e.g. BoI, FE, Tion, LI, or any of the FA), they should be getting into Ess/BT, HS, and Athiss where their limited abilities are not a hindrance because those FPs were tuned for that level.

 

And it does not matter if the group is bolstered to 65 or they change it so the group is level synced to the max level of the FP. Because the point is to ensure a relatively high chance of success.

 

This however would mean that the "randomness" of the FPs selected for a given group through GF would probably end up being weighted toward the low end.

 

I agree, the biggest and best change they could make is to level restrict the flashpoints for lower levels as no bolster will ever replace missing abilities or passives a player has yet to learn.

 

But yeah it could screw with the flashpoint you get if this happened, as you would end up running a flashpoint for the lowest player in the group.

 

There again even if this happened would players prefer GF to pop on lower flashpoints than knowing there was a chance of getting a under levelled player in blood hunt, would that get players queuing more often even knowing you may be running loads of 'lower' flashpoints?

 

What will fix it is:

 

1) We need group flashpoints back. This way, people can learn the FP and their role (DPS/Heals/Tank) in a level appropriate setting.

 

Why revert back to a failed system? this was the case pre 4.0 and it failed due to the lack of tanks and heals queuing and the fact that I am pretty sure that Bioware's metrics would indicated that people preferred running KDY as you could get a hit much faster than a normal trinity flashpoint.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jedi_riches

[LudhaninRolgge]

Why revert back to a failed system? this was the case pre 4.0 and it failed due to the lack of tanks and heals queuing and the fact that I am pretty sure that Bioware's metrics would indicated that people preferred running KDY as you could get a hit much faster than a normal trinity flashpoint.

 

If BW allowed us to know what roles were in the queue and if they gave special rewards for people queueing in low represented roles, for example the queue has 1 tank, 9 DPS and 2 heals, you'd have some sort of reward for queueing as a tank, I'm sure the queue would be shorter.

[Khevar]

If BW allowed us to know what roles were in the queue and if they gave special rewards for people queueing in low represented roles, for example the queue has 1 tank, 9 DPS and 2 heals, you'd have some sort of reward for queueing as a tank, I'm sure the queue would be shorter.

One of the things I enjoyed about the STO group finder is that you

 

1. Queue for specific maps you like to play, and

2. Can see how many people are queued for each map.

 

Now, you can still queue for specific flashpoints in this game (if you're willing to forego the rewards), but the fact you could see how many people were in the STO queues was a pleasant experience after coming from TOR.

[psandak]

If BW allowed us to know what roles were in the queue and if they gave special rewards for people queueing in low represented roles, for example the queue has 1 tank, 9 DPS and 2 heals, you'd have some sort of reward for queueing as a tank, I'm sure the queue would be shorter.

 

Proof of that comes from WoW. I have been saying for some time that this should be in SWTOR too.

[Crossward]

Proof of that comes from WoW. I have been saying for some time that this should be in SWTOR too.

 

Maybe it depends on server? I play on Kargath and Exodar on WoW, and JC on SWTOR. When I queue as a DPS on WoW vs SWTOR, SWTOR always pops faster for me. It's not uncommon for me to gain a couple levels between queue pops on WoW because the satchel of helpful goods rewards aren't enticing people.

 

What's the primary focus of flashpoints? To train people in their roles, or to let them play with other people? If it's the former, longer queue times are acceptable. If it's the latter, they aren't.

[psandak]

Maybe it depends on server? I play on Kargath and Exodar on WoW, and JC on SWTOR. When I queue as a DPS on WoW vs SWTOR, SWTOR always pops faster for me. It's not uncommon for me to gain a couple levels between queue pops on WoW because the satchel of helpful goods rewards aren't enticing people.

 

What's the primary focus of flashpoints? To train people in their roles, or to let them play with other people? If it's the former, longer queue times are acceptable. If it's the latter, they aren't.

 

Well it has been a while since I played WoW, however I was around when the incentives for underrepresented roles were introduced. Before that change, as a dps I could sit in a queue for 45 minutes or more. With that change queue times were cut by 3/4 to start - as low as 10 minutes; they eventually balanced out at about 25 minutes. (IIRC I played on Hellscream)

 

As to your question, it should be a combination of both. It's not just about "letting" people play together, it should be about learning how to play together. Just because someone plays a tank and can hold agro like no one's business does not make that player a good tank; one can KNOW their role and still be a sh*tty team player.

Edited April 28, 2016 by psandak

[merovejec]

The only thing I miss is to be able to SOLO HM fps. That was great back then, where you went through the fps with your companion.

[Yorioko]

For my part what I miss about the FPs is this.

 

The OLD loot.

I loved some of the "old" armor sets, and even weapons that dropped in some of the FPs.

Those alone was more then enough incentive for me to go do them.

And yes I do miss being able to solo the HM FPs, running alone and just causing mayhem mmm fun fun.

Naturally at times with a +20 even +30 level differeance some of the low level ones were cool to just plow through for one of the "old" cool armors or weapons.

 

I can't really say I feel I lost out with the level sync, it just makes teaming up for the old HPs a bit more fun.

 

But to me it was the "old" and cool drops.

[Astaldoath]

we need other things to drop off of FPs like decorations, or credits to get an old Cartel market item, or something like that, ya know, nothing drops decorations any more. Also, start making higher rated crystals weve been with +41 since what 1.0?

 

how bout like +60, +85, +105