Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[gabigool]

If set bonuses didn't mess with cooldowns, or guarantee crits and crits didn't have such an effect on mechanics, I'd care a lot less. And I'll grant that the 4.0 set bonuses are a lot less game-changing than the pre-4.0 ones. But the effect is still felt outside of Ops, and set bonuses are still available outside of Ops.

 

Can you give an example of a non-Operations encounter that is even noticeably different with/without set bonuses?

[LyraineAlei]

Can you give an example of a non-Operations encounter that is even noticeably different with/without set bonuses?

 

Asinine Response: Time taken to kill NPCs is much less with set bonuses that encourage the chances of abilities proc'ing and the cooldown speed of abilities. Although Operations have those too.

 

Did you mean "Non-Operations encounter that is of equal challenge to an Operation that is even noticeably different with/without set bonuses?"

 

Less asinine and smarmy response:

I have a PvP set on a Mara (6/7 so I have the full set bonus) in my regular play, and I find that my abilities are more effective even as I'm running my way through the class story. I have an Operative who finds Star Fortress much easier in her PvP set for the wrong spec (swapped specs from healer to DPS) than in her 208 crystals gear. I have not run through TEC, but I've read people saying that PvP gear set bonuses make TEC easier than non-set bonus gear.

 

Maybe the non-Ops non-PVP gear with sets could have, I dunno, for MArauder *checks PvP 204 Gear boosts* ..

[2] Battering Assault or Zealous Strike increases damage by 1%. Cannot occur more than once every minute (PVP set has 2%, and 30 seconds)

[4]Reduces cooldown of Frenzy or Valorous Call by 7.5 seconds. Additionally activating Berserk or Zen increase all damage dealt by 1.5% for 5 seconds. (PvP set has 15 seconds, 3%, and 10 seconds in that order)

[6]Activating Ravage, Blade Dance, Twin Saber Throw, or Dual Saber Throw will grant Weaponsmaster's/Challenger's Critical Bonus making your next Vicious Throw, Furious Strike, and Annihilate or Dispatch, Concentrated Slice and MErciless Slash critically hit. This effect cannot occur more than once every 90 seconds. (PvP set has every minute)

 

That's an example, so the example gear set for MAra/Sent that isn't for Ops wouldn't have nearly as great set bonuses as an Ops, but it would have a set bonus. Maybe Star Fortress could have the boss that drops part of the set, but RNG on what part and RNG on what set with BoP, so Solo/Non-Ops players could make the 6 piece set bonus, but it would take longer to get a full set for that class and spec. Like I recall raiders talking about how they had run an Op some 20+ times and never gotten the piece for their class/spec to even drop.

Edited September 6, 2016 by LyraineAlei

[PlasmaJohn]

Regardless, I guess it's simpler to just state that raiders, at least the one's I've gotten to know over the past 15 years, could care less about gear. They care about challenges. If the challenges require gear thresholds that must be farmed through that's not something that matters to them unless that threshold becomes an obvious artificial timesink. It is preferable to implement skill timesinks, and not normalize old content so those skill timesinks get diluted, cascading all content into everyone's window of capability over time.

 

Pretty much. Not sure I agree with the last half of that last sentence though. I haven't run any Ops since I left two years ago but I'm liking how the heroics are now relevant.

 

And with that said, I do not know many raiders that had too many issues with how swtor used to do raiding from ~1.2 up to (but not including) 3.0. Sure there were bugs and broken encounters but the overall structure fit this community well and was sustainable at previous content delivery cadences. The number of teams that burned through content super quickly - I mean completed it all - got bored and left was miniscule pre 3.0.

 

Are you sure? Doubt they would have made the "we'll never go that long between Ops" statement if they didn't get hit in the wallet. Might not have hit the NiM crowd that much but I suspect it had an effect on the HM teams. And of course 3.x's Hardmare was the cherry on top.

[lightSaberzFan]

I have a complete set of set bonus gear on a couple of characters obtained via PvP. Because PvP GF (and TFP GF, for that matter) is functional (as in I can "set and forget" and go out into the worlds and play other parts of the game, rather than have to hang around Fleet watching jawa jokes go by). Every so often I queue up anyway, and I've gotten a GF pop twice. Only one of which I actually (despite setting NEED for the drops) got item tokens out of. No wipes in either one, though I'm not going to say that was because of me. I'm a decent enough player, I suppose, but it's not hard to DPS in SM Ops.

 

As I pointed out earlier, you used to be able to get (not BiS stat) set bonus gear via basic commendations off at least one set of vendors. You can get set bonus gear from PvP, again, not BiS outside of PvP. And the classes are designed and balanced around those set bonuses. If you want Ops-specific gear, then have the bonus be effective only in Ops (the way Expertise is only effective in PvP).

 

The thing is, that is the thing about operations. And the collection of gear. Even though some people belittle it, it takes alot more work to get then crystal gear. You can run 10 OPs and only get maybe 2 pieces of gear. It is the RNG gods, and if they dont like you, it could take even longer (like in my case, I have the worst rolling luck).

 

Crystal gear, takes absolutely no effort. Do some stupid heroics, and you can get crystal gear. Garaunteed.

 

So no, I think set bonuses should remain in OPs gear only, otherwise what is the point. People can go on and on about "downing bosses", but in the end, it is the gear. Yes downing bosses is fun, but earning the gear is what it is about. Getting all my 20 toons geared, and min/maxxed. That is the goal.

[IanArgent]

Can you give an example of a non-Operations encounter that is even noticeably different with/without set bonuses?

 

Every time a guaranteed crit pops - that's pretty much a guaranteed kill on most trash mobs, with all the procs that come from that. Every time your cooldown on a taunt is shortened by use of a set-bonus power - especially for taunts; there's plenty of big pulls in Heroics around the game (the former H4s tend to feature quite large pulls). Every 4-piece bonus that reduces the cost of a power - there's a bunch of fights that are pretty tediously long as a solo, particularly in Solo-mode FPs (one of my complaints about solo-mode FPs, actually, is that the boss fights are too long for their lack of challenge; the bosses are big bags of hit points, but they're not that big a threat). In TEC, almost any of the fights are going to go long enough for even the sub-10% damage boost bonuses to show their worth, and the "slop" allowed by the DCD boosts will be relevant as well. Likewise the Exarch fights in HSF. Shortened cooldowns on taunts is a LOT more important for soloing because companion AI isn't as good at managing threat as a human. I would suspect it would matter in HMFP, but I haven't done any of those in a long while, and the last time I tried, I was an idiot and queued as a tank with DPS gear and spec, because I thought jsut changing my stance to the Tank stance would make me a tank (I learned better and bailed before they vote-kicked me. Mea Maxima Culpa and I won't do that again)

 

The argument that these situations do not require set bonus because HM raiders don't need them is not a good one. Set Bonus is not limited to HM raiders. (Under level sync, the stat cap does actually prevent BiS gear from delivering their entire benefit, and the edge BiS stats give you vs crystal gear is much lower). It matters in encounters that are at the top of the individual players' personal game - whether that be HM or NiM progression raiding for you, or TEC Boss 2 or 3 as it is for my wife.

 

Prior to 4.0, a solo non-PvP player could obtain set-bonus gear via a basic comms vendor. Then or today, you can show up to PvP and hide in a corner and get enough WZ Comms to get a set of PvP set bonus armor. As long as I've been playing the game, set bonus has never been restricted to "people who can play enough Ops to get lucky on the boss drops." So why is this such a complaint now? (Rhetorical question -the answer would seem to be in the thread title - it's a way to vent about the lack of raids).

 

The handful of raids I've gotten into I've enjoyed the heck out of. I want to do more. But the archaic nature of getting into a raid (requiring hanging around Fleet, instead of being able to "set and forget" the GF queue while I go out into the world and occupy my slack time in the game - the way all other queues work), and the deliberate forced-grind nature of the reward process (not everyone who gets into a raid gets a set item token they can use out of it); these are archaic "false difficulty" play-time extenders. I expect "roll the dice, maybe get what you need" out of pure F2P games, that's how they make their money. Seeing it in the core game design for a subscription-based game really chaps my crawfish. I have anywhere from an hour to three hours to spend in any one session of the game. Less than that if I can't "pause" to go deal with life. I'm in my forties and have a family. I got an earful from my wife (who also plays, mind you) for getting "stuck" in a SM run of SnV yesterday that appeared to run pretty quickly, from what I could tell (and still took all afternoon and almost overran dinnertime). And the only reason I got any gear drops at all was because several of the other members of the group Passed on all the boss drops because they didn't need them. Which I'm not going to use in the near term anyway because mixing PvP and PvE gear will mess with the bolster in PvP and get me not enough benefit in PvE. My complaint is not about me. I'm reasonably happy with my PvE performance in PvP gear - the modest statistical bonuses I'd get from replacing one with the other will not apply any time soon, since I'm not planning on stepping up to HM raiding in the near future (for one thing, my guild is not a raiding guild).

 

The thing is, that is the thing about operations. And the collection of gear. Even though some people belittle it, it takes alot more work to get then crystal gear. You can run 10 OPs and only get maybe 2 pieces of gear. It is the RNG gods, and if they dont like you, it could take even longer (like in my case, I have the worst rolling luck).

 

Crystal gear, takes absolutely no effort. Do some stupid heroics, and you can get crystal gear. Garaunteed.

 

So no, I think set bonuses should remain in OPs gear only, otherwise what is the point. People can go on and on about "downing bosses", but in the end, it is the gear. Yes downing bosses is fun, but earning the gear is what it is about. Getting all my 20 toons geared, and min/maxxed. That is the goal.

 

Set bonus gear has not been exclusive to Ops gear for as long as I've been aware of it. I was working on a couple of sets obtained by basic comms when 4.0 came down and removed that vendor, and PvP gear has set bonus.

 

And I will rant on this bit every chance I get. RNG is not difficulty. "It is the RNG gods, and if they dont like you, it could take even longer" is a terrible idea, even in a pure F2P game. In a primarily subscription game (and one where F2P players are largely locked out of raiding anyway), it's worse than that.

[rklontz]

Set bonus gear has not been exclusive to Ops gear for as long as I've been aware of it. I was working on a couple of sets obtained by basic comms when 4.0 came down and removed that vendor, and PvP gear has set bonus.

 

And I will rant on this bit every chance I get. RNG is not difficulty. "It is the RNG gods, and if they dont like you, it could take even longer" is a terrible idea, even in a pure F2P game. In a primarily subscription game (and one where F2P players are largely locked out of raiding anyway), it's worse than that.

 

PvE\PvP set bonus gear needs to be exclusive from ops or ranked pvp. It should not come on crystal/welfare gear.

As for the RNG it would be pretty easy to come up with an op only currency that awards enough that after 2 or 3 boss kills a person can by a tier piece

Edited September 6, 2016 by rklontz

[PlagaNerezza]

^ Indeed.

 

Cleverly presented as though it was a fact though.

 

Aggregated reviews and customer feedback and falling populations support the fact that a "majority of reviewers and players don't find KOTFE to be 'good' content". It has a falling support base and I'd suspect it isn't polling in the right direction with the community. This despite its features and enhancements to streamline gameplay and big cinematics.

 

IGN 6.5

MMORPG: 8.1

MMORPG: 7.5 from players

Den of Geeks: 3.5

[PlasmaJohn]

The handful of raids I've gotten into I've enjoyed the heck out of. I want to do more. But ... the deliberate forced-grind nature of the reward process (not everyone who gets into a raid gets a set item token they can use out of it); these are archaic "false difficulty" play-time extenders. I expect "roll the dice, maybe get what you need" out of pure F2P games, that's how they make their money.

 

IIRC bosses used to drop tokens that any class/role could use to get their class and role specific item. Did that change? Do people not do Master Loot runs anymore or does queuing via Group Finder not allow that? Back in the day my team's rules were main spec over off-spec and one token per run unless everybody else passes.

 

Unfortunately PUG runs really are luck of the draw. If you want the gear the best thing to do is to find a (mostly) static group with more deterministic loot distribution rules. Yeah I know that blocking out some time is challenging but it's not impossible.

[TUXs]

PvE\PvP set bonus gear needs to be exclusive from ops or ranked pvp. It should not come on crystal/welfare gear.

As for the RNG it would be pretty easy to come up with an op only currency that awards enough that after 2 or 3 boss kills a person can by a tier piece

It absolutely should NEVER EVER be a Ranked PvP exclusive. PvP should never have had special gear to begin with...EVER! A gear gap in PvP only hurts PvP.

 

As for Ops...what the hell does it matter these days? Give bonuses for FP's and token gear for all I care...why make gear the limiting factor? Make Op rewards cosmetic...the CM team knows what people want, get them to work on it.

[IanArgent]

PvE\PvP set bonus gear needs to be exclusive from ops or ranked pvp. It should not come on crystal/welfare gear.

As for the RNG it would be pretty easy to come up with an op only currency that awards enough that after 2 or 3 boss kills a person can by a tier piece

 

That's not the case right now, though - unranked PvP awards the same set bonus (at a stat penalty) that Ops gear has. And 4.0 removed a vendor that sold set bonus gear for comms; that gear had a notable set penalty. (Also, way to represent the l33t raider stereotype with your "welfare" sneer. Raiding does NOT need "raid or ****" attitude.)

 

IIRC bosses used to drop tokens that any class/role could use to get their class and role specific item. Did that change? Do people not do Master Loot runs anymore or does queuing via Group Finder not allow that? Back in the day my team's rules were main spec over off-spec and one token per run unless everybody else passes.

 

SnV has 6 (-ish?) boss drops for 8 people. DP has 4 drops for 8 people. I got lucky on the SnV run and got 2, despite following the announced "rule" that you should only select "Need" until you got 1 token. I rather unexpectedly got a second token on Greed, and immediately asked if anyone else wanted it - everyone else passed because they didn't want it.

 

Unfortunately PUG runs really are luck of the draw. If you want the gear the best thing to do is to find a (mostly) static group with more deterministic loot distribution rules. Yeah I know that blocking out some time is challenging but it's not impossible.

 

If I'd realized it would take 3-4 hours to run through SnV, I wouldn't have queued for it. The only reason I didn't have to bail after the penultimate boss fight was that it was a holiday afternoon - I don't regularly have anything close to 4 hours where I can't be interrupted for longer than a few minutes free any more. Doing DP in 2 hours was pushing it the times I did that. At that I got lucky in that I got the GF pop without having to hang around Fleet, and that the group was willing to take a Vanguard tank in a DPS slot when I didn't know the fights at all.

 

I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this - it's not about me, I have what I consider perfectly adequate access to set bonus items via PvP. I'm complaining about the game design decision that put core "final" class functionality behind a pair of grouping walls; especially when the set bonuses used to be available via commendations; and in particular that the Ops wall is never guaranteed to grant a set bonus item. And I'm explicitly distinguishing the set bonus from the higher raw stats of Ops gear, or cosmetic gear such as titles, mounts, and shells. If you don't like seeing it purchaseable via low-end crystals, put it on the TEC vendor or a currency only obtainable via HSF, so that there's a gear progression for single-player content as well; instead of the unmoddable items that are on there now because BW decided to cater to raiders' incorrect view that only raid gear had set bonuses.

[Andryah]

Aggregated reviews and customer feedback and falling populations support the fact that a "majority of reviewers and players don't find KOTFE to be 'good' content". It has a falling support base and I'd suspect it isn't polling in the right direction with the community. This despite its features and enhancements to streamline gameplay and big cinematics.

 

IGN 6.5

MMORPG: 8.1

MMORPG: 7.5 from players

Den of Geeks: 3.5

 

LOL.... Yeah.... when these sites give a good review... it gets panned by folks like you. When they give a neutral or bad review... they get two thumbs up. Hilarious.

 

Game site reviews... pretty much mean nothing these days... so I would not put any cred on them. Everyone has an agenda, and will cherry pick data to try to support their narrative.

 

And in other news..... the OP quit 3 logging in to the forums 3 days after the first post in this thread. Yet folks are here still comparing navels and trying to push noodles uphill with their noses.

 

Some people like raids to the point where they simply MUST be the studio priority. Others could care less. Which do you think is the larger crowd? Why does any of it even matter?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Andryah

[Tsetso]

It absolutely should NEVER EVER be a Ranked PvP exclusive. PvP should never have had special gear to begin with...EVER! A gear gap in PvP only hurts PvP.

 

As for Ops...what the hell does it matter these days? Give bonuses for FP's and token gear for all I care...why make gear the limiting factor? Make Op rewards cosmetic...the CM team knows what people want, get them to work on it.

 

If there wasn't special pvp gear(read expertise) raiders would destroy everyone. Now whether expertise should work in owpvp or not is entirely different topic.

[IanArgent]

If there wasn't special pvp gear(read expertise) raiders would destroy everyone. Now whether expertise should work in owpvp or not is entirely different topic.

 

You can get Expertise gear in unranked PvP, simply by showing up enough times.

[gabigool]

Keep in mind this is just my opinion. I believe you know I respect yours and how you present it, so here's hoping I present mine in a like manner:rolleyes:

 

Every time a guaranteed crit pops - that's pretty much a guaranteed kill on most trash mobs, with all the procs that come from that.

 

Which you had about a 1 in 3 chance of getting already. In other words, on average it (almost) saves you a GCD twice every three minutes.

 

Every time your cooldown on a taunt is shortened by use of a set-bonus power - especially for taunts; there's plenty of big pulls in Heroics around the game (the former H4s tend to feature quite large pulls).

 

I've run all the heroics on both DPS and tank and I don't think I've ever taunted a mob except to move it. What could you possibly need to taunt outside of a flashpoint? And in a flashpoint, if you really need the set bonus it's a skill issue. If your argument is that you need this gear to avoid having to learn the fundamentals of your class I will not agree with you.

 

Every 4-piece bonus that reduces the cost of a power - there's a bunch of fights that are pretty tediously long as a solo, particularly in Solo-mode FPs (one of my complaints about solo-mode FPs, actually, is that the boss fights are too long for their lack of challenge; the bosses are big bags of hit points, but they're not that big a threat).

 

I agree with this from a high level - I have long felt that all classes should have all access to all endgame rotational abilities - and associated energy reliefs - by level 20-25. I believe it fosters sound play early on and would stave off a lot of bad habits.

 

On the flip side though, I hardly think this is significant in practice. If a lack of set bonus requires 1 extra auto attack every 30 seconds or so I do not see that as impactful.

 

In TEC, almost any of the fights are going to go long enough for even the sub-10% damage boost bonuses to show their worth, and the "slop" allowed by the DCD boosts will be relevant as well.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this. Sure, it helps - theoretically. But candidly if this is the difference between a kill and a wipe I'm not so sure there isn't a skill issue in there somewhere - and, more importantly, is probably better alleviated by simply bumping up the companion a few levels. My experience - and I've only done TEC 5 or 6 times - is that your companion level and your ability to micro matters more than a GCD here or there.

 

Note - you talk a lot about how class abilities are tuned with set bonuses in mind. Be aware they are also tuned with proper rotations in mind as well.

 

Likewise the Exarch fights in HSF. Shortened cooldowns on taunts is a LOT more important for soloing because companion AI isn't as good at managing threat as a human

 

All I will say is I've done HSF once on a tank and during the part where I had some abilities to click I couldn't figure it out so I alt tabbed for well over a minute with no issue. I can't fathom needing a reduced cooldown on taunt.

 

Note - It doesn't reduce your cooldown per se. It causes certain abilities to reduce the cooldown. Depending on how things fall (or how little you plan) you're talking about reducing the single taunt from 15 to 13 seconds. At best, 15 to 11. Your AoE taunt is at best going to drop to ~30 seconds.

 

I promise you - this is not a big deal in the content we are talking about. It's just simply not. On some higher difficulty content, sure it is. There are encounters where I have to manage the timing/cd of my taunts very carefully. But certainly, none of that content is what we are talking about here.

 

I would suspect it would matter in HMFP, but I haven't done any of those in a long while, and the last time I tried, I was an idiot and queued as a tank with DPS gear and spec, because I thought jsut changing my stance to the Tank stance would make me a tank (I learned better and bailed before they vote-kicked me. Mea Maxima Culpa and I won't do that again)

 

As someone who does a lot of HMFPs - I mean a LOT - I can say with certainty it doesn't matter. It's handy, sure. It allows you to be a little lazier I suppose. But if your group is good, you rarely need to taunt at all, and if your group is bad you are fine w/ the default cooldowns.

 

If you know how to tank.

 

The argument that these situations do not require set bonus because HM raiders don't need them is not a good one. Set Bonus is not limited to HM raiders. (Under level sync, the stat cap does actually prevent BiS gear from delivering their entire benefit, and the edge BiS stats give you vs crystal gear is much lower). It matters in encounters that are at the top of the individual players' personal game - whether that be HM or NiM progression raiding for you, or TEC Boss 2 or 3 as it is for my wife.

 

I'm sorry man I just fundamentally don't agree with you - I think this is the crux of where we're out of sync.

 

I do not consider the purpose of set bonuses as being a means to offset deficiencies in fundamental gameplay understanding. I consider them to be tools to optimize sound play.

 

With all due respect to your wife - and anyone in a similar situation - if she is struggling with the third boss on TEC, set bonuses are not the solution. She would find herself far more prepared to tackle something like TEC by grabbing a cup of coffee, leaning back, putting her feet up and reading a guide on how to play her class for 5 minutes. Or reading her abilities and thinking about how they intertwine. Watching a video. Talking to someone who plays that class well. Making a post asking a question.

 

We don't have to start an inquiry or set up mission control. We're not talking about "research" or poring over logs.

 

Just some light reading/thinking/asking/trying.

 

I promise you - I swear - any of those are more valuable than 1 guaranteed crit per minute.

 

I am telling you with certainty the benefit of set bonuses to the casual/solo player is illusory. It's there to make you feel good. It's not helping you. Becoming a more fundamentally sound player helps you. And - IMHO - it makes the game more fun.

 

Prior to 4.0, a solo non-PvP player could obtain set-bonus gear via a basic comms vendor. Then or today, you can show up to PvP and hide in a corner and get enough WZ Comms to get a set of PvP set bonus armor. As long as I've been playing the game, set bonus has never been restricted to "people who can play enough Ops to get lucky on the boss drops." So why is this such a complaint now? (Rhetorical question -the answer would seem to be in the thread title - it's a way to vent about the lack of raids).

 

Aside from a time I recall everyone being granted a set of free tionese gear at level cap (and I may be misremembering it) I do not think PvE set bonus gear has ever been available outside of Flashpoints (back in the day) and Operations. Maybe I'm wrong but my reaction to this is that you are mistaken.

 

The handful of raids I've gotten into I've enjoyed the heck out of. I want to do more. But the archaic nature of getting into a raid (requiring hanging around Fleet, instead of being able to "set and forget" the GF queue while I go out into the world and occupy my slack time in the game - the way all other queues work), and the deliberate forced-grind nature of the reward process (not everyone who gets into a raid gets a set item token they can use out of it); these are archaic "false difficulty" play-time extenders. I expect "roll the dice, maybe get what you need" out of pure F2P games, that's how they make their money. Seeing it in the core game design for a subscription-based game really chaps my crawfish. I have anywhere from an hour to three hours to spend in any one session of the game. Less than that if I can't "pause" to go deal with life. I'm in my forties and have a family. I got an earful from my wife (who also plays, mind you) for getting "stuck" in a SM run of SnV yesterday that appeared to run pretty quickly, from what I could tell (and still took all afternoon and almost overran dinnertime). And the only reason I got any gear drops at all was because several of the other members of the group Passed on all the boss drops because they didn't need them. Which I'm not going to use in the near term anyway because mixing PvP and PvE gear will mess with the bolster in PvP and get me not enough benefit in PvE. My complaint is not about me. I'm reasonably happy with my PvE performance in PvP gear - the modest statistical bonuses I'd get from replacing one with the other will not apply any time soon, since I'm not planning on stepping up to HM raiding in the near future (for one thing, my guild is not a raiding guild).

 

All I can say is that if you truly enjoyed your experiences doing Operations and think you would enjoy doing more, there is really no substitute for experiencing them with a team. I'm in my 40's as well... I run my own business, spend time with my family, take care of my home etc. This is my hobby and I make time for it. I don't know anyone that doesn't play golf once or twice a week, bowl, play softball etc.

 

Put together a team. Maybe just play once a week for two hours. That's plenty of time and there are plenty of people who are probably in your exact situation. Use the forums to set something up. Join another guild with an alt that does things more frequently. I have never looked at the prospect of gearing or setting up a run to be tedious because I have gotten involved with communities of players who enjoy spending in-game time doing the same things as I do.

 

It shouldn't be a chore, and it doesn't have to be.

[Tsetso]

You can get Expertise gear in unranked PvP, simply by showing up enough times.

 

My post was more like trying to explain why expertise is needed as a game mechanic.

[DarthWoad]

And in other news..... the OP quit 3 logging in to the forums 3 days after the first post in this thread.

 

What is it with you and checking on other peoples profiles? Why do you always look at their posting history and comment on their account number? It seems like you..

 

cherry pick data to try to support their narrative.

Edited September 6, 2016 by DarthWoad

[PlasmaJohn]

As for Ops...what the hell does it matter these days?

 

For raiding in general gear progression is part of the experience. While your team is accumulating gear from the earlier bosses you're practicing your rotations and strategy against the current boss. Eventually you'll either hone your execution to the point of success or get enough gear to survive the mechanics. Usually it's a mix of gear and player improvement.

 

Taking away gear progression like EA/Austin did with the Highlighted Hardmodes really did a number on the experience of progression raiding. Hopefully they got that message loud and clear. That's the only excuse I can see for the gear reset coming in 5.0. If they continue as-is... well that just underscores how unfit they are as MMO designers.

[TUXs]

If there wasn't special pvp gear(read expertise) raiders would destroy everyone. Now whether expertise should work in owpvp or not is entirely different topic.

Huh? That makes no sense...I don't need special gear to beat a PvEer. Unless you're arguing that PvE gear, being 224's, is so far above 208's that it would be the difference? PvP gear should be the 2nd highest Pve tier imo...meaning 220 gear.

For raiding in general gear progression is part of the experience. While your team is accumulating gear from the earlier bosses you're practicing your rotations and strategy against the current boss. Eventually you'll either hone your execution to the point of success or get enough gear to survive the mechanics. Usually it's a mix of gear and player improvement.

 

Taking away gear progression like EA/Austin did with the Highlighted Hardmodes really did a number on the experience of progression raiding. Hopefully they got that message loud and clear. That's the only excuse I can see for the gear reset coming in 5.0. If they continue as-is... well that just underscores how unfit they are as MMO designers.

That's fine...the progression would still be there. Ops gear would still be best, just have FP and Token gear that has the set bonuses...the BiS enh/mod still come from doing the actual Op.

Edited September 6, 2016 by TUXs

[PlasmaJohn]

SnV has 6 (-ish?) boss drops for 8 people. DP has 4 drops for 8 people. I got lucky on the SnV run and got 2, despite following the announced "rule" that you should only select "Need" until you got 1 token. I rather unexpectedly got a second token on Greed, and immediately asked if anyone else wanted it - everyone else passed because they didn't want it.

 

Didn't they used to drop two tokens per boss? Been too long. I'd call it a design defect or at least not designed with PUG'ing in mind.

 

I'm complaining about the game design decision that put core "final" class functionality behind a pair of grouping walls ...

 

This is something of a peeve of mine as well. I'd much prefer the ultimate rotation or priority be settled very early on in the levelling process. These days if I see an MMO with levels north of 50 I get really itchy since they all loooove to make your hardest hitters your capstone skills.

 

Set bonuses should not alter it much. Unfortunately that's really hard to balance. Obvious things like changing cooldown timers can cause a dramatic change. Less obvious would be adding bonus damage to certain skills which changes the priority.

[Tsetso]

Huh? That makes no sense...I don't need special gear to beat a PvEer. Unless you're arguing that PvE gear, being 224's, is so far above 208's that it would be the difference? PvP gear should be the 2nd highest Pve tier imo...meaning 220 gear.

 

Yes, that was my point. Yes they could make pvp gear 220 or even 224 rating but that would effectively kill all pve gear progression. Historically it was used as a time sink(since you have a lockout once you kill a boss in an Op) to slow down raid progression. If pvp dropped the same gear all raiders would just farm pvp to get gear and kill all the bosses in the op in the first week.

 

Actually this is what happened with the highlighted hard mode ops. The expertise i believe was copied from WoW(although it probably is called something else there) to both keep the raid progression and at the same time to make sure that raiders don't roflstomp other players in pvp.

[Anzel]

To answer the OPs question honestly let's look at the problem for real. Both League and Overwatch are murdelizing SWTOR. Why? Because the majority of players don't want to stand around for three hours forming a group and then another three hours killing trash mobs. Plain and simple, it's not as popular as it once was.

[Andryah]

Plain and simple, it's not as popular as it once was.

 

A LOT of truth to this statement I think.

 

Many, myself included, used to love the "raid format" in MMOs. Many, myself included, have long since tired of the format and the endless waste of time that goes along with running an actual raid. Not to mention the bad blood that foments within raid teams over raids in many cases, for many different and often foolishly dramatic reasons. When you see good guilds in raid centric MMOs shatter over raiding.... it's telling. When you see your best tanks and healers "use" a guild raid team to progress and get gear and achievements, and then abandon the guild for the next guild in the alleged progression curve... it's telling. Raids are very team centric, and MMO players in general in the modern era... not so much.

 

Group content in general .... way more popular then raid specific formats in today's market. There is a reason that WoW has consistently slow-walked away from the classic large and difficult raid format. And it is the same reason that the great Renaissance in raiding promised by Wildstar fell flat.

 

Raids are simply less popular in the market now days then in past years. For a lot different reasons. And PuGing for raids.. is an absurd distortion of the intention of raids to begin with. They are meant to be run by large stable teams of players that know each other and know and play their roles to overcome an team based objective.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Andryah

[DarthWoad]

To answer the OPs question honestly let's look at the problem for real. Both League and Overwatch are murdelizing SWTOR. Why? Because the majority of players don't want to stand around for three hours forming a group and then another three hours killing trash mobs. Plain and simple, it's not as popular as it once was.

 

Maybe if they made more raids, more people would be interested, and then people wouldn't be standing around for 3 hours.

 

Even if it's not popular, doesn't mean it should be ignored.

[DarthWoad]

A LOT of truth to this statement I think.

 

Many, myself included, used to love the "raid format" in MMOs. Many, myself included, have long since tired of the format and the endless waste of time that goes along with running an actual raid. Not to mention the bad blood that foments within raid teams over raids in many cases, for many different and often foolishly dramatic reasons. When you see good guilds in raid centric MMOs shatter over raiding.... it's telling. When you see your best tanks and healers "use" a guild raid team to progress and get gear and achievements, and then abandon the guild for the next guild in the alleged progression curve... it's telling. Raids are very team centric, and MMO players in general in the modern era... not so much.

 

Group content in general .... way more popular then raid specific formats in today's market. There is a reason that WoW has consistently slow-walked away from the classic large and difficult raid format. And it is the same reason that the great Renaissance in raiding promised by Wildstar fell flat.

 

Raids are simply less popular in the market now days then in past years. For a lot different reasons. And PuGing for raids.. is an absurd distortion of the intention of raids to begin with. They are meant to be run by large stable teams of players that know each other and know and play their roles to overcome an team based objective.

 

Completely disagree.

 

You may be tired of it, but a lot of people aren't. A lot of people actually enjoy interacting with other people, talking about tactics and using teamwork to kill a boss. It's only a waste of time when you can't find a good group, if people leave, if you start drama within raid teams (ive never had drama in any raid I've played in).

 

Raid groups usually fall apart when people get bored of the current raids and hate waiting for new ones to come out. And that could be why it's not popular - because the content isn't there.

[IanArgent]

Keep in mind this is just my opinion. I believe you know I respect yours and how you present it, so here's hoping I present mine in a like manner:rolleyes:

 

No worries, you're one of the people I like to debate with.

 

 

 

Which you had about a 1 in 3 chance of getting already. In other words, on average it (almost) saves you a GCD twice every three minutes.

About once every 2-3 fights (maybe 1-2 depending on spacing), in other words. The minute cooldown on the proc happens between fights, and at least the way I play, it's the high-value target in the pull, so it ends the fight a LOT quicker than 1 less GCD. Also, 30% on each hit only works out to 1 in 3 over a very large sample size, thousands of encounters.

 

 

 

I've run all the heroics on both DPS and tank and I don't think I've ever taunted a mob except to move it. What could you possibly need to taunt outside of a flashpoint? And in a flashpoint, if you really need the set bonus it's a skill issue. If your argument is that you need this gear to avoid having to learn the fundamentals of your class I will not agree with you.

 

There's a couple of encounters where the pulsl are spread out over a really large area; though the only examples I can think of are in TFPs that I was 2-manning instead of 4-manning.

 

My argument is that set bonus is not unique to Ops, and that you have a problem in restricting acquisition to ops; and if you do limit it to ops, either you need it before you get it, or you don't need it for Ops. It's this weird little speed-bump in the Ops gear grind, which is otherwise focused on working your way up to BiS stats. And again, it's not obtainable only from Ops today.

 

I agree with this from a high level - I have long felt that all classes should have all access to all endgame rotational abilities - and associated energy reliefs - by level 20-25. I believe it fosters sound play early on and would stave off a lot of bad habits.

 

One of the things I love about the "new" leveling pace is that you can, without too much work, hit L65 by Imp Taris/Pub Balmorra. With a little bit of work you can be level-capped and working on learning your "final" rotation/priority by NS.

 

On the flip side though, I hardly think this is significant in practice. If a lack of set bonus requires 1 extra auto attack every 30 seconds or so I do not see that as impactful.

 

Rotation/priority is all about the muscle memory.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I agree with this. Sure, it helps - theoretically. But candidly if this is the difference between a kill and a wipe I'm not so sure there isn't a skill issue in there somewhere - and, more importantly, is probably better alleviated by simply bumping up the companion a few levels. My experience - and I've only done TEC 5 or 6 times - is that your companion level and your ability to micro matters more than a GCD here or there.

 

It becomes time/cost prohibitive to get a comp beyond about Inf 30.

 

Note - you talk a lot about how class abilities are tuned with set bonuses in mind. Be aware they are also tuned with proper rotations in mind as well.

 

Yup. No argument.

 

All I will say is I've done HSF once on a tank and during the part where I had some abilities to click I couldn't figure it out so I alt tabbed for well over a minute with no issue. I can't fathom needing a reduced cooldown on taunt.

 

Note - It doesn't reduce your cooldown per se. It causes certain abilities to reduce the cooldown. Depending on how things fall (or how little you plan) you're talking about reducing the single taunt from 15 to 13 seconds. At best, 15 to 11. Your AoE taunt is at best going to drop to ~30 seconds.

 

I promise you - this is not a big deal in the content we are talking about. It's just simply not. On some higher difficulty content, sure it is. There are encounters where I have to manage the timing/cd of my taunts very carefully. But certainly, none of that content is what we are talking about here.

 

HSF, it's not about the taunt CD - it's about the increase in DPS or increased effectiveness across the length of the fights. I can't recall if I've ever taunted in the inner ring of an HSF, other than to pingpong focus between me and the turret to keep it alive and kicking out DPS longer. But the percentage boosts in DPS, that's fairly important.

 

 

I'm sorry man I just fundamentally don't agree with you - I think this is the crux of where we're out of sync.

 

I do not consider the purpose of set bonuses as being a means to offset deficiencies in fundamental gameplay understanding. I consider them to be tools to optimize sound play.

 

I'd say "optimize your play at your skill cap." Whether that ckill cap is imposed by not wanting to advance in difficulty or your personal skill cap. It's a one-time boost to character effectiveness; when your character reaches their "very final" form.

 

With all due respect to your wife - and anyone in a similar situation - if she is struggling with the third boss on TEC, set bonuses are not the solution. She would find herself far more prepared to tackle something like TEC by grabbing a cup of coffee, leaning back, putting her feet up and reading a guide on how to play her class for 5 minutes. Or reading her abilities and thinking about how they intertwine. Watching a video. Talking to someone who plays that class well. Making a post asking a question.

 

We don't have to start an inquiry or set up mission control. We're not talking about "research" or poring over logs.

 

Just some light reading/thinking/asking/trying.

 

I promise you - I swear - any of those are more valuable than 1 guaranteed crit per minute.

 

To a certain extent, I agree with you. But she won't do it. She's happy with her current skill level. I will reiterate - she can go out today and annoy everyone else on her team (and possibly on the other team) by not AFKing in some PvP matches to get a set bonus; and it'll do her as good as any set of Ops gear I get by running an Op every so often.

 

I am telling you with certainty the benefit of set bonuses to the casual/solo player is illusory. It's there to make you feel good. It's not helping you. Becoming a more fundamentally sound player helps you. And - IMHO - it makes the game more fun.

 

Yes and no - it's a small edge in almost any situation. Here's the thing - I 100% agree with you about the bolded part. And to a certain extent I agree with the rest of the sentiment as well; especially since they nerfed down the power of the set bonus. What the set bonus does is make the game more forgiving of error while you learn your fundaments.

 

Aside from a time I recall everyone being granted a set of free tionese gear at level cap (and I may be misremembering it) I do not think PvE set bonus gear has ever been available outside of Flashpoints (back in the day) and Operations. Maybe I'm wrong but my reaction to this is that you are mistaken.

 

You made me go look. Go to Belsavis as a Pub (presumably to the equivalent location on Belsavis for an Imp, but I never did the Belsavis Bonus series on an Imp, so I'd have to hunt for it), and go to the Republic Wilderness Outpost (QT or Taxi). Around -1635, 300, there's a pair of vendors. Sgt Koep sells a pair of speeders (Lhosan Thunderbolt and Longspur Blaze). Captain Ja'dan still sells the chest pieces off Rakata gear (with the old 2/4 set bonus tooltips even). He also sells a bunch of Dread Guard relics. Back in the day there were a couple more vendors there, they sold complete Rakata sets; I recall farming the heck out of Lost In Deed to get the basic comms necessary to try and buy a set for my consular. (Didn't finish before 4.0 dropped and everything changed)

 

 

 

All I can say is that if you truly enjoyed your experiences doing Operations and think you would enjoy doing more, there is really no substitute for experiencing them with a team. I'm in my 40's as well... I run my own business, spend time with my family, take care of my home etc. This is my hobby and I make time for it. I don't know anyone that doesn't play golf once or twice a week, bowl, play softball etc.

 

I'm terrible at time management; I can and do make the time, but I don't make it in large uninterrupted chunks. Also, this isn't my only hobby, or even my only computer game. And even in my "hobby time" I generally have to be able to interrupt to deal with immediate issues. Which is why I got my set bonus via PvP, and why prior to that I was grinding heroics for comms to buy the Rakata set from that vendor.

 

Put together a team. Maybe just play once a week for two hours. That's plenty of time and there are plenty of people who are probably in your exact situation. Use the forums to set something up. Join another guild with an alt that does things more frequently. I have never looked at the prospect of gearing or setting up a run to be tedious because I have gotten involved with communities of players who enjoy spending in-game time doing the same things as I do.

 

It shouldn't be a chore, and it doesn't have to be.

 

If I could reliably "hobby" once a week for 2 hours on a predictable schedule, I'd probably put that time to other uses; actually. SWTOR is nice, but it's only barely scratching my RPG itch. I'd rather be playing a tabletop game, be it board game or full-up RPG. But right now it doesn't work out for me.

Edited September 6, 2016 by IanArgent