Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[nepochop]

I HATE IT, but you do need ops lvl scaling.

 

I hate it too, but I also dont want everyone to get Wings and Rancor like me on his main and alts Its nice that its so exclussive, so I also hate it, but i dont want people to get that stuff so easily.

 

Maybe not lvl sync, but remove the drops and titles for the runs.

[Tanitha]

Nice to see such comments from newer players also. Imagine that you are here since start and EV was out when the game went live and you did it since then (over 5 years). Anyway all you said is true, Operations are the only thing that can save this game from dying, but not just 1 or 2 operations, but all the stuff around it. By that i mean bug fixing, further development and also a continuity as it was before, we got TfB, then SaV, then DF with DP, ToS and Ravagers, those were the good days of ops development (however the last 2 opses we already could feel the decline in development).

 

As for the spending on the game, dont underestimate the power or RP in this game. RP is strong here and many many people play the game just to be Space Barbie. Also many rich kids playing the game who use their real life wealth to buy CM stuff to sell for credits for which they can then buy sales runs and other stuff. A proper raider, as you claim, has all the crew skills leveled to max, gathered all mats and will go on PTS to see what mats are needed, which will be removed and converted, based on this prepares for it. When new gear and ops hits raiders already know what to get and what to craft. They get the best REingable gear and start REingenering, making stims, adrenelas, medpacs etc. They do this themselves, not buy from GTN.

 

Anyway, I was like you, staying in the game for achievments, but now i need HM flashpoints and GSF. HM fps is a grind in which most of the groupfinder groups fail and you end up alone in the group with people giving up. GSF rarely pops and if so, its not enough to get achievments, which require 100s of matches played. Overall you need friends for this, friends that all have left the game cause there is nothing to do......

 

Not a new player but rarely come on SWTOR forums. Started playing when Oricon had just been introduced, and Makeb and Oricon were still difficult to do. I am not much of a crafter, just learning what I need for new ops, and when KOTFE and L65 came, I grinded ops for a week to get a full 216 on my main. Waited to get 6 set bonus, before changing armorings, as they were not compatible with the old 192/198.

 

Right now I still have a raiding team, so another plus for that, we want to at least clear ToS/Ravs HM before KOTET. M&B HM is a pain to do, and it has nothing to do with skill, too much RnG and luck needed. Had a few misadventures around with raiders leaving, and other mishaps, and without a stable team, some ops are not easy to clear.

 

But if no new ops, it's going to kill the game, I'll probably sub for one month when KOTET is all done, to do it at least with my mara and my sentinel, and that's it. I like the PvE aspect of the game, and have loved the stories, even the most boring ones, but not enough for me, any more. Grinding a story which is the same for all, tends to become boring and tedious. Some of my L65 have not done anything more than class story. And my DvL ones, well, let's say got a couple that don't even have a ship yet at L50.

 

And sub rewards? Most were retarded. I have destroyed all copies of that horrendous HK helmet... Decos were fine, but sub to get one deco or an horrendous piece of gear and a crappy chapter per month? No thanks.

[VegasTheLost]

What pisses me off really is the attitude towards raids from developers. Yeah it would be great if we had 2 OPS with KotFE, however what I saw is the not enough attention. For some time I would be OK without new raids if I saw glimpse of attention at least on bug fixing level. I mean all of the raids are synced to cap level, this means the platform was/is there to build upon. No better time to fine tune them and thrash out bugs. And BW just shrugged. Over and over again I see missed opportunities in this game. In the story, in the development, in the communications, in the delivery.

 

And also this ignorance IS driving players away. Guilds are just giving up and disappearing after months and months of waiting for the 16m insta fix, just to mention an example(NGE). Yeah anyone can say that: 'so what, 16 people left, more are still here'. But it's not the case. Some bugs are in for years now. And we get a whole new story content soon. FFS, my bet is on that a lot of players would be fine with 'just' a bug fix 'expansion', where most if not all of the bugs are fixed.

[merovejec]

Guilds are just giving up and disappearing after months and months of waiting for the 16m insta fix, just to mention an example(NGE). Yeah anyone can say that: 'so what, 16 people left, more are still here'.

 

Well was far more of us in NGE than 16 ppl, even in desperate times before the KOTET annoucement we had over 20 people in channel and those werent just social members, but people that could really go in and finish any NiM ops. We had evenings where we oneshotted 16M Ravagers all bosses.

 

How many guilds can do that now? Please dont answer that

 

They had to drive the raiders away to be able to focus on their story and dress up people buying CM stuff. The fact that they have delayed the last chapter (which i wanted to finish off my LvsD achievments) just to launch the New Pack Opening Experience proved to me that they are really only into money making, no operations, no bug fixing, no anything, just "yours truly, THE CARTEL MARKET TEAM"

[VegasTheLost]

Well was far more of us in NGE than 16 ppl, even in desperate times before the KOTET annoucement we had over 20 people in channel and those werent just social members, but people that could really go in and finish any NiM ops. We had evenings where we oneshotted 16M Ravagers all bosses.

 

I know quite well. But for the one-time 'solo only, I don't care about ops, give me solo ops, I'm entitledcuzImasub' people it just means 16 people left.

[UberSamoyed]

Oh the NY Cantina. Should be interesting.

[IanArgent]

Auroa Cannon is one of the easiest in the game and the bonus just isn't worth it, better to just set comps on heals and run through it all or stealth if possible popping CDs, a cheap medpack, possible off heals, and heroic moment.

 

It's the easiest in the game, if you don't engage in combat. Which could be said about any mission without a combat requirement. If you do engage, though, it's pretty tough. I learned more about playing my classes by running through that than I did in almost anyplace else but TEC.

 

No one absolutely "NEEDS" gear for tacticals, people just need to expand their knowledge about their class. I farmed tacticals, and I mean FARMED them, getting ALL tac achievements from ROTHC and beyond pub side, and NEVER failed a tac. Yeah... blood hunt with 4 DPS was bad but I learned to cope with it and I was at the time a DPS commando with 216 set bonus. I'm not even a real HM prog runner honestly anyway and I did just fine.

 

You're well over to the right-hand-side of the playskills bell curve, then; simply through time expended, if nothing else.

[Tsetso]

Oh the NY Cantina. Should be interesting.

 

Only if there are still raiders interested enough to attend to it.

[DarthWoad]

In some ways, I think MMOs are tailor made for angry whiners

 

So why are you playing SWTOR? Serious question, do you actually play the game or do you spend more time on the forums?

[CorellianWannabe]

I hate it too, but I also dont want everyone to get Wings and Rancor like me on his main and alts Its nice that its so exclussive, so I also hate it, but i dont want people to get that stuff so easily.

 

Maybe not lvl sync, but remove the drops and titles for the runs.

 

Finally some honesty. I don't want people to get my shinies!

[CorellianWannabe]

I honestly don't understand your quarrel with raiders? The question you asked can simply be answered: because it is PvE - why wouldn't it? Even PvP-Gear works outside of warzones, in fact better than vendor trash, so...

 

Why should Flashpoint-Gear work outside of Flashpoints? Why should H2-Gear work outside of heroics? Those are the same kind of questions - they simply do not make sense. And the obvious progression in Swtor is: solo - h2 (ok, that one is open for debate) - FP - HM FP - Ops - HM Ops - NiM-Ops (at least theoretically, there are some exceptions). So it makes sense to have gear drop accordingly.

 

Besides Speed Champion I guess there is not a single solo achievement you can't get in standard gear (and I am not sure about that one either).

 

Bottom line is: not the raiders are elitist, you are. If you want 224 set bonus - do the ops. You don't need it anyway. It obviously makes you parse higher and thus makes standard content a tad easier/quicker, but besides that: there's just no point. But your grief is: other players get stuff you can't, because you don't clear content they do.

 

Disclaimer: before you jump to conclusions I must say that my best gear is a 216 set - besides that I mostly use 208 PvP...

 

Flashpoint/Heroic gear- you mean crystals? I don't believe they work as gear anywhere.

 

No, my 'grief' is why raid gear is not designed to function primarily or exclusively in the precious raids. Apparently despite it not being required for anything other than raiding it still needs to be the best so raiders can grind heroics even faster and have more time to sit around until 'raid night'. Strange I haven't seen many players in pvp gear grinding those same heroics until the next warzone opens. Apparently the need for exclusivity is strong, despite the claims of 'we only raid for the challenge, I couldn't care less about the gear'.

 

How about no gear progression at all then? What if the 'new raid' (like that would ever happen, but for argument's sake) required better tactics instead of dropping better gear? If raid bosses gave nothing but the satisfaction of defeating them would raiders still do it 'for the challenge'? Probably about as many as engage in world pvp vs warzones- not many at all.

Edited September 5, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[Shwarzchild]

Flashpoint/Heroic gear- you mean crystals? I don't believe they work as gear anywhere.

 

No, my 'grief' is why raid gear is not designed to function primarily or exclusively in the precious raids. Apparently despite it not being required for anything other than raiding it still needs to be the best so raiders can grind heroics even faster and have more time to sit around until 'raid night'. Strange I haven't seen many players in pvp gear grinding those same heroics until the next warzone opens. Apparently the need for exclusivity is strong, despite the claims of 'we only raid for the challenge, I couldn't care less about the gear'.

 

How about no gear progression at all then? What if the 'new raid' (like that would ever happen, but for argument's sake) required better tactics instead of dropping better gear? If raid bosses gave nothing but the satisfaction of defeating them would raiders still do it 'for the challenge'? Probably about as many as engage in world pvp vs warzones- not many at all.

 

FWIW, the problem right now for raiders and potentially why some of us or most of us what have you are considering Unsubscribing is that nobody wants to regrind level and gear for content that's years old. So I don't think raiders give a hoot about gear. It's a means to an end. It's something we do as fast as possible so that the targeted content can be participated in. If the end is nightmare we go for 224. If its hard mode it's 220. Etc. Also, I'm not sure raiders really equip their heavy duty gear all the time. For instance when I do hard mode flashpoints or heroics I just plop on my pvp gear or whatever the character has on hand since I'm lazy and don't feel like swapping gear over. You have an idea of who or what a raider is and it isn't lining up with what a raider is.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[IanArgent]

I hate it too, but I also dont want everyone to get Wings and Rancor like me on his main and alts Its nice that its so exclussive, so I also hate it, but i dont want people to get that stuff so easily.

 

Maybe not lvl sync, but remove the drops and titles for the runs.

 

Finally some honesty. I don't want people to get my shinies!

 

 

You know, I don't want everyone to get those shinies either. I have no complaints about cosmetic rewards being limited to raiding (or FPS, or TEC, or PvP, etc). I don't have a problem with "bigger numbers" being limited to higher-end content. It's only the "set bonuses," because they change the way the class plays (now, at least, in smaller ways than prior to 4.0; but still significant ways). Particularly since the rewards structure for the gear in Ops is structured to require "difficulty via tedium" because you're not guaranteed a set-bonus item on any particular run. Again, I don't care about that for the cosmetic items; and it wouldn't bother me that much for "bigger numbers" gear (though it would annoy me a little).

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Finally some honesty. I don't want people to get my shinies!

 

What you want then is a participation trophy, but without even participating. Rewards exclusive to certain content is a good thing.

[Pietrastor]

Oh the NY Cantina. Should be interesting.

 

Especially when someone brings up last year's NY cantina and how they said better than cross-server would be ready before NY cantina 2016 lol

[Sundown]

Flashpoint/Heroic gear- you mean crystals? I don't believe they work as gear anywhere.

There are drops in FPs and H2s to equip your char. It is accessible through other means as well, but basically it is the same principle.

Problem is: you don't read what I wrote, or at least just comment on a small thing. There is PvE and PvP. Ops belong to PvE, so no need to separate gear (as was explained to you a couple of times).

No, my 'grief' is why raid gear is not designed to function primarily or exclusively in the precious raids. Apparently despite it not being required for anything other than raiding it still needs to be the best so raiders can grind heroics even faster and have more time to sit around until 'raid night'. Strange I haven't seen many players in pvp gear grinding those same heroics until the next warzone opens. Apparently the need for exclusivity is strong, despite the claims of 'we only raid for the challenge, I couldn't care less about the gear'.

Even if it were solely the exclusivity, what is the problem? Your problem seems to be that you won't be able to get it and are salty. Deal with it. I will most likely never get the Wings of the architect. I don't carry titles like Beyond or Conqueror of the DF - but I don't envy people who do. I'd like to have them, but can't. Tough luck. But it is not because I didn't have the opportunity, but because I either chose not to go there or lack of skills/dedication on my end.

 

So what about people getting best gear and grinding to do so? That is the nature of an MMO.

How about no gear progression at all then? What if the 'new raid' (like that would ever happen, but for argument's sake) required better tactics instead of dropping better gear? If raid bosses gave nothing but the satisfaction of defeating them would raiders still do it 'for the challenge'? Probably about as many as engage in world pvp vs warzones- not many at all.

You are not making any sense, and you are arrogant at that. Who are you to judge anyones motivation to play a game? If you have defeated a boss once, why do it again? Because of loot. So there you go. Motivation to play is never based on a single thing. It is a lot of stuff supporting it.

 

And it is far easier to make new bosses not only different in tactics, but also tougher in health, simply to force to people to grind more to get there - you see: less content but more time spent, that is what you need...

[Tsetso]

Flashpoint/Heroic gear- you mean crystals? I don't believe they work as gear anywhere.

 

<snip>

How about no gear progression at all then? What if the 'new raid' (like that would ever happen, but for argument's sake) required better tactics instead of dropping better gear? If raid bosses gave nothing but the satisfaction of defeating them would raiders still do it 'for the challenge'? Probably about as many as engage in world pvp vs warzones- not many at all.

 

Just a guess but that would be the dream come true to any raider. New raid every month and no gear grinding.

[lightSaberzFan]

You know, I don't want everyone to get those shinies either. I have no complaints about cosmetic rewards being limited to raiding (or FPS, or TEC, or PvP, etc). I don't have a problem with "bigger numbers" being limited to higher-end content. It's only the "set bonuses," because they change the way the class plays (now, at least, in smaller ways than prior to 4.0; but still significant ways). Particularly since the rewards structure for the gear in Ops is structured to require "difficulty via tedium" because you're not guaranteed a set-bonus item on any particular run. Again, I don't care about that for the cosmetic items; and it wouldn't bother me that much for "bigger numbers" gear (though it would annoy me a little).

 

So basically what your saying is your upset YOU dont have set bonus gear because you choose not to raid, and are jealous that some people do and it gives them an advantage...

 

Considering that has been a set standard for OPs gear, I doubt you will have any luck changing that. There is nothing stopping anyone from participating and getting the same gear, besides their own decisions.

[VegasTheLost]

So basically what your saying is your upset YOU dont have set bonus gear because you choose not to raid, and are jealous that some people do and it gives them an advantage...

 

Considering that has been a set standard for OPs gear, I doubt you will have any luck changing that. There is nothing stopping anyone from participating and getting the same gear, besides their own decisions.

 

No no no. What Ian is saying that the classes/specs peak performance is designed in case of set bonus. For example, the sniper set bonus gives us 1 stack of laze target, and that gives us a 100% crit on ambush. Ian's problem is that in this case said sniper performs better and the reason is quite obvious. It's not related to player skill or crit rating that can be acquired via comm gear, but because of set bonus. I don't know if this was a good example or not, Ian will have a line in I suppose.

 

Sadly none of the other set bonuses pops to my mind right now, but in general some of the 4 piece is lowers a cooldown for a certain skill or it has an energy management line in, and with these things included a rotation will be much smoother and the cooldowns will align much better to each other. Less filler for example.

 

Now I must say that currently we can't talk about strict rotations, as far as I experience it in case of DPS classes it is more of a priority based one so how we play a given class is entirely up to us. However all things considered(skill, keybinds, experience etc), without set bonus we can't reach the true peak performance of a class/spec. And that is Ian's problem as I understand, not the availability of a set bonus gear.

[masterceil]

No no no. What Ian is saying that the classes/specs peak performance is designed in case of set bonus. For example, the sniper set bonus gives us 1 stack of laze target, and that gives us a 100% crit on ambush. Ian's problem is that in this case said sniper performs better and the reason is quite obvious. It's not related to player skill or crit rating that can be acquired via comm gear, but because of set bonus. I don't know if this was a good example or not, Ian will have a line in I suppose.

 

Sadly none of the other set bonuses pops to my mind right now, but in general some of the 4 piece is lowers a cooldown for a certain skill or it has an energy management line in, and with these things included a rotation will be much smoother and the cooldowns will align much better to each other. Less filler for example.

 

Now I must say that currently we can't talk about strict rotations, as far as I experience it in case of DPS classes it is more of a priority based one so how we play a given class is entirely up to us. However all things considered(skill, keybinds, experience etc), without set bonus we can't reach the true peak performance of a class/spec. And that is Ian's problem as I understand, not the availability of a set bonus gear.

 

So you'd be happy if comms gear had set bonuses to, say, time your rotations better, and Ops gear simply had, say, 15% better stats and better stat distribution? A piece of 216 comms gear gets its 1000 or so stat points and set bonus, ops gear gets 1150 stat points and same set bonus? Are you sure you wouldn't then come back and complain about the 1-6% increase in Crit/Ala/Acc/Def/Abs/Shi per piece that ops gear would be getting?

Edited September 6, 2016 by masterceil

[VegasTheLost]

So you'd be happy if comms gear had set bonuses to, say, time your rotations better, and Ops gear simply had, say, 15% better stats and better stat distribution? A piece of 216 comms gear gets its 1000 or so stat points and set bonus, ops gear gets 1150 stat points and same set bonus? Are you sure you wouldn't then come back and complain about the 1-6% increase in Crit/Ala/Acc/Def/Abs/Shi per piece that ops gear would be getting?

 

I'm perfectly fine the way it is currently. My post was more about Ian's view regarding set bonuses as I saw him stating this before.

[masterceil]

I'm perfectly fine the way it is currently. My post was more about Ian's view regarding set bonuses as I saw him stating this before.

 

I know you dropped his name several times in that post, I'd just wondered if you'd continue playing the devil's advocate.

 

Ian, same question

[Tsetso]

So you'd be happy if comms gear had set bonuses to, say, time your rotations better, and Ops gear simply had, say, 15% better stats and better stat distribution? A piece of 216 comms gear gets its 1000 or so stat points and set bonus, ops gear gets 1150 stat points and same set bonus? Are you sure you wouldn't then come back and complain about the 1-6% increase in Crit/Ala/Acc/Def/Abs/Shi per piece that ops gear would be getting?

 

This would be better design imo, because when people start doing ops they won't have to unlearn the rotation they have been using. I've had trouble with that - using too many rapid shots on an AP for instance. The change is not that big but it still allows to use a Magnetic Blast instead of rapid shots once in a while.

[IanArgent]

So basically what your saying is your upset YOU dont have set bonus gear because you choose not to raid, and are jealous that some people do and it gives them an advantage...

 

Considering that has been a set standard for OPs gear, I doubt you will have any luck changing that. There is nothing stopping anyone from participating and getting the same gear, besides their own decisions.

 

I have a complete set of set bonus gear on a couple of characters obtained via PvP. Because PvP GF (and TFP GF, for that matter) is functional (as in I can "set and forget" and go out into the worlds and play other parts of the game, rather than have to hang around Fleet watching jawa jokes go by). Every so often I queue up anyway, and I've gotten a GF pop twice. Only one of which I actually (despite setting NEED for the drops) got item tokens out of. No wipes in either one, though I'm not going to say that was because of me. I'm a decent enough player, I suppose, but it's not hard to DPS in SM Ops.

 

As I pointed out earlier, you used to be able to get (not BiS stat) set bonus gear via basic commendations off at least one set of vendors. You can get set bonus gear from PvP, again, not BiS outside of PvP. And the classes are designed and balanced around those set bonuses. If you want Ops-specific gear, then have the bonus be effective only in Ops (the way Expertise is only effective in PvP).

[IanArgent]

So you'd be happy if comms gear had set bonuses to, say, time your rotations better, and Ops gear simply had, say, 15% better stats and better stat distribution? A piece of 216 comms gear gets its 1000 or so stat points and set bonus, ops gear gets 1150 stat points and same set bonus? Are you sure you wouldn't then come back and complain about the 1-6% increase in Crit/Ala/Acc/Def/Abs/Shi per piece that ops gear would be getting?

 

I have no problem with Ops gear being better statistically than non-Ops gear. I've been saying that all along. Bigger numbers are only relevant against bigger enemies. (With the minor exception of alacrity. But it's such a minor effect, and only would show up in long battles; you'd only see the difference in Ops or possibly one or two FP boss fights).

 

If set bonuses didn't mess with cooldowns, or guarantee crits and crits didn't have such an effect on mechanics, I'd care a lot less. And I'll grant that the 4.0 set bonuses are a lot less game-changing than the pre-4.0 ones. But the effect is still felt outside of Ops, and set bonuses are still available outside of Ops.