if you just gonna leave the flashpoint cause of non spacebarers

[LordGermanicuss]

Firstly, discussing what one would like to happen beforehand is my preferred method of FP running, if I'm pugging. I believe you'll find I've stated that very thing in this thread, even.

 

Secondly, I didn't confirm it. In fact, I stated, quite clearly, in the first line of the post you quoted that if you go with friends, which is a closer analogy to running a FP than going solo to the movies, it is, in fact a social event. The problem isn't that I read something you didn't say, the problem is that I read what you did say, even if what you did say wasn't what you meant. I can't interpret meaning, I can only read what's presented.

 

It would seem that we agree: Laying out the ground rules before the run starts is a "must". If everyone's on the same page, there can be no misunderstandings, and no demands set. If someone isn't on board, the group can be changed w/out the need to get harsh, or confrontational. This is a non issue, and should be happening from the get go. The issue comes in when it's "understood" that this is what's happening, when the reality is, it's not. Assumptions are bad, and should be eliminated from the conversation.

 

The only thing about "talking it out beforehand" is that you're forgetting that Asia/Pacific SWTOR servers closed and now you have a lot of players and more will be coming from Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, Thailand etc that speak little to no english at all. That's why people should just realize that the movies are a part of the flashpoint and if you have that much problem with them, run them with friends so you can knock them out as fast as you'd like.

[LordGermanicuss]

If 3 of 4 players want to skip... stop being selfish bastard and skip. When 3 of 4 players dont want to skip... the same.

Logic always win

 

This is not a democracy, it's a republic, by that I mean when you pay for the game, you get rights with that, one of them is not being told how to enjoy your game. Not to mention all the people coming from the closed asia servers that don't speak english and like to watch the movies. It's actually very selfish of you to not let people enjoy the game they paid for in the manner they like. For people that play daily, you probably see them often, but what if you only play 3 times per week and run 10 fp's the entire month? Watching the movies is getting quite a bit more for your money experience wise. It's sad so many are too selfish to understand what others might get out of something.

[LordGermanicuss]

Its really sad when people project their own issues on others. I hate to burst your bubble, but when YOU decide, over the 3 other people in the group that YOU want to watch the cutscenes and screw everyone else it is YOU that is being anti-social. They paid for their game just as much as you have. THEIR choice is just as valid as yours.

 

When you queue for a flashpoint, the cutscenes/movies ARE INCLUDED for a reason. They ARE a part of it. Other people pay for this game and not all are daily players, for someone that runs 10 fp's a month because of work and school, the cutscenes add a great deal of enjoyment. You only see it from your perspective and that's your problem. You're too selfish to consider others, only the way you think it should be. Their choice was to queue up for a random group, with random people that may not want the same thing as them, they made that choice, yes. They could find a guild speed run group if they wanted, but no, they made the choice to queue with others that want something different, or, for that matter, since the APAC SWTOR servers closed, may not even understand a bit of what you're saying to them. When you queue for a fp, the movie is included, don't forget, get used to it, or make your own group.

[Arsq]

Personally, not spacing bothers me mostly in the FPs with a solo option and a lot of cutscenes, especially FPs such as BT, BP, Foundry, since most of us have ran through them literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times. Luckily the newer ones (Forged Alliances flashpoints) are light on cutscenes, even though Manaan might feel like it takes ages at times. I usually don't mind if someone wants to see the cutscenes in something like Manaan or Rakata Prime, but if you go to BT and don't space, you're just being a huge douche. Read below why that is.

 

Inspired by this thread, I went ahead and did a little test. I ran Black Talon solomode twice, since it's the one with the most dialoque/cutscenes I could think of.

 

First time, I spacebarred through everything and used 1 as the default option. That run took me 11 minutes 30 seconds (Killed all bosses inc. bonus boss etc).

 

The second time, I watched every cutscene without spacebarring, at all... I chose 1 as the default choice without lag though. Again I killed all bosses and used an identical route to the first run. This run took me 24 minutes and 45 seconds.

 

Now, one should bear in mind that in an actual run with a group, people will lag behind, or tab out during cutscenes because someone isn't spacing, so the cutscenes will take longer when someone isn't picking a choice as soon as possible. That said, I'd imagine a group with someone who isn't spacing will take roughly 2.5 to 3 times longer to complete BT than a group in which everyone's spacing. In other words, if you go to a cutscene intensive flashpoint, space or go do the solomode, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Arsq

[LordGermanicuss]

Personally, not spacing bothers me mostly in the FPs with a solo option and a lot of cutscenes, especially FPs such as BT, BP, Foundry, since most of us have ran through them literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times. Luckily the newer ones (Forged Alliances flashpoints) are light on cutscenes, even though Manaan might feel like it takes ages at times. I usually don't mind if someone wants to see the cutscenes in something like Manaan or Rakata Prime, but if you go to BT and don't space, you're just being a huge douche. Read below why that is.

 

Inspired by this thread, I went ahead and did a little test. I ran Black Talon solomode twice, since it's the one with the most dialoque/cutscenes I could think of.

 

First time, I spacebarred through everything and used 1 as the default option. That run took me 11 minutes 30 seconds (Killed all bosses inc. bonus boss etc).

 

The second time, I watched every cutscene without spacebarring, at all... I chose 1 as the default choice without lag though. Again I killed all bosses and used an identical route to the first run. This run took me 24 minutes and 45 seconds.

 

Now, one should bear in mind that in an actual run with a group, people will lag behind, or tab out during cutscenes because someone isn't spacing, so the cutscenes will take longer when someone isn't picking a choice as soon as possible. That said, I'd imagine a group with someone who isn't spacing will take roughly 2.5 to 3 times longer to complete BT than a group in which everyone's spacing. In other words, if you go to a cutscene intensive flashpoint, space or go do the solomode, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.

 

Yeah, Black Talon is long, I just tab up my browser in a small mode so I can see in the background when it's over then move on(if someone's not space barring).

[lightSaberAddiCt]

When you queue for a flashpoint, the cutscenes/movies ARE INCLUDED for a reason. They ARE a part of it. Other people pay for this game and not all are daily players, for someone that runs 10 fp's a month because of work and school, the cutscenes add a great deal of enjoyment. You only see it from your perspective and that's your problem. You're too selfish to consider others, only the way you think it should be. Their choice was to queue up for a random group, with random people that may not want the same thing as them, they made that choice, yes. They could find a guild speed run group if they wanted, but no, they made the choice to queue with others that want something different, or, for that matter, since the APAC SWTOR servers closed, may not even understand a bit of what you're saying to them. When you queue for a fp, the movie is included, don't forget, get used to it, or make your own group.

 

Like I said before, you only see what you want, and are desperately trying to justify it with ridiculous examples of "well maybe they dont speak english".

 

In the end they are hurting themselves. Because what you don't seem to understand is that the group is a majority, and people are having less and less problems vote kicking these people. The majority always wins. After awhile the worse offenders get added to so many ignore lists they wait longer and longer for FP ques. Maybe then they will get the picture.

 

We will continue to weed these selfish people out of the rotation...

[TheSeventhJedi]

I've got a toon that I have decided to run absolutely every single quest on. Solo mode is a godsend for me. I can enjoy it at my pace, and not worry about others.

 

That also makes it so when I need to group up, I know I shouldn't even bother watching the cutscenes. Because that's literally the reason solo mode was instituted.

[TX_Angel]

This is not a democracy, it's a republic, by that I mean when you pay for the game, you get rights with that, one of them is not being told how to enjoy your game.

 

In a Republic, you also have to respect the rights of others. If 3 people don't want to watch and you do, then you're the odd man out.

[TX_Angel]

You only see it from your perspective and that's your problem. You're too selfish to consider others, only the way you think it should be.

 

The same works in reverse however...

 

Their choice was to queue up for a random group, with random people that may not want the same thing as them, they made that choice, yes. They could find a guild speed run group if they wanted

 

And you could find a group who wants to watch them all...

[LordGermanicuss]

Like I said before, you only see what you want, and are desperately trying to justify it with ridiculous examples of "well maybe they dont speak english".

 

In the end they are hurting themselves. Because what you don't seem to understand is that the group is a majority, and people are having less and less problems vote kicking these people. The majority always wins. After awhile the worse offenders get added to so many ignore lists they wait longer and longer for FP ques. Maybe then they will get the picture.

 

We will continue to weed these selfish people out of the rotation...

 

No, that's one example, the main one stands on it's own. The cutscenes/movies come WITH the flashpoint, when you queue up for it accepting that you're going to get randoms, you queue up for potentially watching them all.

 

There aren't as many anti-social people in this game as you think, of course you think you're the majority because that's how are you, how could anyone else be any different, a very narrow way of thinking which is why you don't understand and are unwilling to accept the right of others to enjoy a game they pay for. If you're kicking and blocking people for enjoying their right to enjoy a game they pay to play then you are a part of the problem, YOU are why people leave the game. YOU and others like you with anti-social personality disorders and rampant narcissism are why gen chat is so vapid and why many leave the game. Good job. You clearly don't understand the definition of selfish one bit, others pay for the game and have a right to watch the movies that ARE INCLUDED with the flashpoint and associated queue. You just need to grow up and get over yourself.

[Seireeni]

Yeah, Black Talon is long, I just tab up my browser in a small mode so I can see in the background when it's over then move on(if someone's not space barring).

 

I do pretty much the same thing. And I don't really care if we spacebar or not, I usually start spacebarring but if someone does not, just either watch the cutscenes or, if there are loads of cutscenes, do something else while listening to the NPC talking and switch to choose a convo option when the NPC stops talking. No big deal.

Though if there is one person in the group who wants to skip and another who wants to watch the cutscenes, I tend to support the one who wants to watch them, unless the person who wants to skip has an actual reason for wanting to skip (and no, I don't count "I have already seem them" as an actual reason in this case).

 

And, IMHO, if you are not ready to watch the cutscenes in story-heavy flashpoints such as Black Talon when the majority of the group wants to, there's an easy solution: do not queue for Black Talon.

[LordGermanicuss]

In a Republic, you also have to respect the rights of others. If 3 people don't want to watch and you do, then you're the odd man out.

 

No, that's democracy, a republic is based on a system of unalienable rights(see your constitution for an example of that assuming that you're american, it's a constitutional representative republic). When someone has paid for the game and the flashpoint queue has the movies included, then they have the right to watch them, they paid for the game. If you want to have them removed, the have all at it, attempt that.

[LordGermanicuss]

The same works in reverse however...

 

 

 

And you could find a group who wants to watch them all...

 

 

No, it doesn't work in reverse, you paid for the game but queue with randoms knowing that the movies are included and knowing that some people will want to watch them, that's your choice. It is not your choice to demand that others that pay for the game suit your need for a speed run instead of enjoying their money the way they chose. The flashpoints come with movies, get over it, get used to it, or attempt to have them removed.

[LordGermanicuss]

I do pretty much the same thing. And I don't really care if we spacebar or not, I usually start spacebarring but if someone does not, just either watch the cutscenes or, if there are loads of cutscenes, do something else while listening to the NPC talking and switch to choose a convo option when the NPC stops talking. No big deal.

Though if there is one person in the group who wants to skip and another who wants to watch the cutscenes, I tend to support the one who wants to watch them, unless the person who wants to skip has an actual reason for wanting to skip (and no, I don't count "I have already seem them" as an actual reason in this case).

 

And, IMHO, if you are not ready to watch the cutscenes in story-heavy flashpoints such as Black Talon when the majority of the group wants to, there's an easy solution: do not queue for Black Talon.

 

Me either, but there are some anti-socials that for some reason play MMO's instead of FPS's where they wouldn't be bothered by social happenings in a game. I can't imagine a life like that, basement personality disorder, lol. I support the person watching as well, I assume they are a new player and we all know the game desperately needs plenty of those. These anti-socials don't realize they are at fault for bringing the game down. The movies are included, if they don't have time to watch them, then they shouldn't queue with randoms, plain and simple, the movies are included for a reason.

[JennyFlynn]

Majority rules seems a more than fair solution here. Yeah it's your money but the moment you knowingly choose to engage in an activity that requires several other people, you should understand that it stops being all about what you want and it becomes a team effort. If you can't handle the idea that the majority might ask for something that goes against what you want then either run solos or go only with a premade group of people you know and discuss the 'rules' before hand.

 

I prefer watching cutscenes in FPs I haven't done yet but if the rest of the group doesn't want to, fair enough. I'll skip when asked to in a normal fashion and come back to do either the solo version or just look on YouTube if anyone has that FPs scenes on there.

[psandak]

This week's

dovetails into this conversation. It is about "local multiplayer" but part of it reminds us that on the other end of the wire there is a human being not a robot and that person deserves respect.

 

The extremes on both sides are wrong: watching the cutscenes through when you are asked nicely to skip them and the majority acknowledges it is doing so (especially when you do not even respond to the request) is just as anti-social as someone yelling at the group "FFS SPACEBAR NAU!!!"

 

Those you group with deserve to be treated as you wish others would treat you.

 

Yes, those cutscenes are there because they are part of the FP, but their being skippable is ALSO part of the FP. So just because they are there does not mean they are mandatory. Same thing can be said of trash skipping - if trash was not meant to be skipped at times then the agro range and/or mob density would be such that they not be skipped.

[TUXs]

Factually inaccurate is a "good post" to you? Doesn't matter, flashpoints are part of it when you click the button, get used to it.

How was his post "factually inaccurate"? It was "common courtesy" imo. If 3 of the 4 want it one way, majority rules. Just because you're along for the ride, doesn't mean you trump everyone else. If you're truly that selfish and entitled, go find someone who doesn't mind your attitude to run with.

[LordGermanicuss]

Majority rules seems a more than fair solution here. Yeah it's your money but the moment you knowingly choose to engage in an activity that requires several other people, you should understand that it stops being all about what you want and it becomes a team effort. If you can't handle the idea that the majority might ask for something that goes against what you want then either run solos or go only with a premade group of people you know and discuss the 'rules' before hand.

 

I prefer watching cutscenes in FPs I haven't done yet but if the rest of the group doesn't want to, fair enough. I'll skip when asked to in a normal fashion and come back to do either the solo version or just look on YouTube if anyone has that FPs scenes on there.

 

The problem with that is that they are included by default, and there are plenty of people who play this game that don't understand english or only do a little bit, def not enough to know what "sb plz" even means. APAC servers closed, many of those players are here and more will come, if we don't want the game to die, which hopefully that's important to everyone, then we need to be accommodating to those that are newer to the game and those that don't speak english well. I just recently found youtube videos on the game and have watched quite a few of the stories I didn't know until watching them. But most just play the game, not go looking for in game videos outside the game. Again, they're included for a reason and while many(including myself) skip them, we don't have a right to demand that others skip them, they pay for the game too and they may be a new player(NOT the type of people we want to drive away from the game, given the numbers, we don't want to drive anyone away from the game).

[LordGermanicuss]

This week's

dovetails into this conversation. It is about "local multiplayer" but part of it reminds us that on the other end of the wire there is a human being not a robot and that person deserves respect.

 

The extremes on both sides are wrong: watching the cutscenes through when you are asked nicely to skip them and the majority acknowledges it is doing so (especially when you do not even respond to the request) is just as anti-social as someone yelling at the group "FFS SPACEBAR NAU!!!"

 

Those you group with deserve to be treated as you wish others would treat you.

 

Yes, those cutscenes are there because they are part of the FP, but their being skippable is ALSO part of the FP. So just because they are there does not mean they are mandatory. Same thing can be said of trash skipping - if trash was not meant to be skipped at times then the agro range and/or mob density would be such that they not be skipped.

 

You're forgetting that the APAC servers closed and many non-english speakers came here. You can ask as politely as can be and they just have no clue what you are saying. I've had to point that out to people when in an fp bc they've ask why so and so never said anything, and I said "look at his name, that's not american, he's prob like my wife and doesn't speak english", and nearly everytime they're like "oh, didn't think of that", most americans don't, many don't realize the game used to have many more servers in many more places.

[LordGermanicuss]

How was his post "factually inaccurate"? It was "common courtesy" imo. If 3 of the 4 want it one way, majority rules. Just because you're along for the ride, doesn't mean you trump everyone else. If you're truly that selfish and entitled, go find someone who doesn't mind your attitude to run with.

 

"Common courtesy" is not what his post was about, he made factual statements that were opinion and not fact. Majority doesn't rule when they are included by default and other people pay for the game just as much as you do. If you don't have time for them when they are a part of it, don't queue randomly because in random queues they are included. If your "majority" demands as much as they can, and the other person doesn't speak english, then what? APAC servers are gone, many of those ppl are here. You're just gonna start kicking people and running off more of the very small playerbase we have left? Really?? I skip them, this isn't about me, this is about non-running off the new people that haven't seen them and non-english speakers, there are 3 that I know of from my country alone, and in my last guild there were some from indonesia etc. You run people off you're only bringing about the games' demise out of selfishness, congrats if that's your goal.

[casirabit]

It's an MMO people...go with what the GROUP wants. If you wanna watch the movies, SAY SOMETHING! If you want people to skip them, SAY SOMETHING! A little communication goes a long freaking way.

 

You people who intentionally don't spacebar are just as bad as those who insist you do.

 

I think it would depend on the situation. If they say spacebar once then I would agree but if they constantly say it then that is a bit different. I will spacebar normally but if a person has said spacebar over 2 times and we have just gotten started then I will ignore the person and watch the movies. Once or twice is one thing but a constant spacebar with an attitude can be a bit different.

[LordGermanicuss]

I think it would depend on the situation. If they say spacebar once then I would agree but if they constantly say it then that is a bit different. I will spacebar normally but if a person has said spacebar over 2 times and we have just gotten started then I will ignore the person and watch the movies. Once or twice is one thing but a constant spacebar with an attitude can be a bit different.

 

Very true, just shows that they queued up when they really didn't have time to, or are just a jerk.

[JennyFlynn]

The problem with that is that they are included by default, and there are plenty of people who play this game that don't understand english or only do a little bit, def not enough to know what "sb plz" even means. APAC servers closed, many of those players are here and more will come, if we don't want the game to die, which hopefully that's important to everyone, then we need to be accommodating to those that are newer to the game and those that don't speak english well. I just recently found youtube videos on the game and have watched quite a few of the stories I didn't know until watching them. But most just play the game, not go looking for in game videos outside the game. Again, they're included for a reason and while many(including myself) skip them, we don't have a right to demand that others skip them, they pay for the game too and they may be a new player(NOT the type of people we want to drive away from the game, given the numbers, we don't want to drive anyone away from the game).

 

I'm still fairly new if you don't count the 2 month sub I had back in 2013. I've only been here since December 2015 and I'm not a native English speaker. My first time in a TFP I had no idea what the guy spamming "SB SB SB" meant until another asked "Are we spacebarring?" .. oh, hey, they want to skip through the cut scenes. It was a brand new place for me and even though I was one of those new players, I didn't feel entitled to make the rest of my group wait just because I wanted to see everything in it's full glory. Whether you're old or new, English or German, you're making the conscious decision to engage in group content and even little kids learn that when you play with others it becomes a game of give and take where you don't always get what you alone want.

[TUXs]

"Common courtesy" is not what his post was about, he made factual statements that were opinion and not fact. Majority doesn't rule when they are included by default and other people pay for the game just as much as you do. If you don't have time for them when they are a part of it, don't queue randomly because in random queues they are included. If your "majority" demands as much as they can, and the other person doesn't speak english, then what? APAC servers are gone, many of those ppl are here. You're just gonna start kicking people and running off more of the very small playerbase we have left? Really?? I skip them, this isn't about me, this is about non-running off the new people that haven't seen them and non-english speakers, there are 3 that I know of from my country alone, and in my last guild there were some from indonesia etc. You run people off you're only bringing about the games' demise out of selfishness, congrats if that's your goal.

How do you say "spacebar" in Indonesian?

 

Of course this type of scenario is an exception to the rule...there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule.

[-Highsteel-]

I normally seem to full into a 4 DPS group. When one leaves I just call my lvl 50 Lana and put her on heals. Prefer it that way.