Premades keeping PVP fun

[Icykill_]

People bag premades as ruining PVP.. But premades are the only thing keeping PVP fun and competitive (if against other premades)..

Before all the premade haters start ranting and jumping up and down, please listen to my reasoning.

 

* Bio have degraded PVP so much that a lot of the better players have left the game. They've done it so many ways I'm not going to list how they've degraded the game play.

* Bio have "made" PVE people play PVP to get certain companions, which RP and lots of PVE people feel they need.

* Bio introduced conquest points in PVP and made it one of the easiest ways for PVE people to get them

* Bio make instant lvl 60s available

* Made PVE companions too OP that PVE people don't really understand their class abilities and can basically global mobs with an AOE, which makes them incompetent in PVP.

 

All of those actions have flooded PVP with tonnes of PVE people who aren't there to enjoy or be competitive at PVP. They only want their rewards for doing it. While this was an interesting idea to "encourage" people to try PVP, it was implimented badly.

So now PVP has so many noobs and Bads in it who don't really want to be there. This means that pugs are so bad that it's enough to drive any dedicated pvpers still playing this game away from it.

The only saving grace to escape the window licking Bads is to form premades with your guild, friends from other guilds or other competent PVPers. While this isn't good for the other team if they are all pugs, remember that there are probably only 2 people on the other team who can PVP and the reset are noobs. I know that's not "fair" for those 2 PVPers, but let's face it, they should try and form a premade. Yes, yes.. I know this is controversial, especially if you like to solo queue.

 

So what are we left with?

 

Queue pugs with probably 90% of your team not caring or wanting to be in PVP and be completely frustrated, match after match, to the point of getting so sick of it you start quiting match after match.

 

Or get some random PVPers together for 2, 3 or 4 man premades. The pvpers don't even need to be the best or be on voice chat. As long as they are competent and know what they are doing. These Premades are really just a pug group of pvpers to make sure you don't get a bunch of PVE noobs on your team.

 

Or make some PVP friends and play regularly together. You still don't need voice chat and as time goes on you'll get used to each other's play style and be fairly competent as a group.

 

Or make guild premades. Voice chat can still be optional. I don't use it in my guild and we play as as a cohesive unit because we play a lot together. Of course voice chat is used by many guilds to help in premades, but it's really only an advantage in ranked or to those middle of the range players in regs.

 

So why are premades keeping PVP fun?

 

If you are playing against other premades you arent steam rolling Bads, but actually having competitive matches. I'm sure we can nearly all agree this is much more fun.

You also have PVPers on your team and not noobs. This removes the stress you might get while you try and carry these bad teams, it free's you up to just play your way. You can then concentrate on using your class role as intended.

I know if I'm with a bunch of PVPers I find PVP more relaxing and fun, which is what it's meant to be, this is a game after all. You want to be able to have some recreation that takes you away from real life stresses, not play and get stressed and agro.

 

So are premades ruining PVP still, as lots of people have complained in the past?

 

My conclusion is "no" they aren't, at least not for real PVPers. Maybe they are for those noob pugs, but let's face it, they don't really want to be there anyway and their care factor is low.

 

Anyway if you want to have fun, make some premades. It doesn't matter what type of premade because at least you know you are with PVPers.

Also the more premades out there, the more likely you will be against premades, so you at least know it should be competitive.

[Savej]

Harbinger imp-side midbies tonight during primetime and just after primetime:

 

~1.5 hours in q, 3 pops. 2 of them with premades steamrolling the other side, the 3rd was a 4v3 arena that stayed 4v3 until the end and it had at least two people on one side that seemed determined to lose from the same guild (one did 0 dmg and nearly 0 heals before dying, the other did nearly that and both were less than lvl 45 - the team with 4 lost badly). I noticed slow qs over the weekend as well - I think the qs are popping more on rep side for some reason but they definitely weren't as fast as they used to be even there. My suspicion is that premades are chasing most players away from the bracket (or something is). It's an issue with that bracket on other servers, too, but I was surprised that Harbinger is also suffering from a lack of participation.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if pvp gets to the point where regular players need to organize teams to have a fair shot at winning, most people are not going to keep playing. Organizing teams takes time and effort; that doesn't work for those that just want to quickly bang out dlyies on a couple characters that might be split amongst different factions/brackets/servers (being in "a guild" doesn't usually cover that).

Edited March 29, 2016 by Savej

[kweassa]

...so people who do not wish to be a part of any guild, or just wish to casually queue by themselves, are now forced to make teams, or be a part of some guild, to be able to PvP. It's either be forced to join your standards, or be a perpetual loser and get get roflstomped 24/7?

 

No thanks.

 

A word to the wise: "Go pick on someone your own size", instead of forcing everyone to bulk up to be your size. In other words, go fight the same premades, and stay out of reg WZs.

 

Either way, matchmaking. You really think premades are all that fun and competitive? Fine by me. Support matchmaking so that premades are always matched up with premades, and NEVER against pug teams.

[kweassa]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if pvp gets to the point where regular players need to organize teams to have a fair shot at winning, most people are not going to keep playing.

 

Thank you. Another person who gets it, and yes, that is EXACTLY it.

 

Unlike real PvP players, like myself, or many others in this forum, casual players PvP for fun. They have their limits in patience, and if they don't PvP ever again, most of them won't even blink -- unlike how us, those who play MMOGs for PvP, are gonna seriously suffer if PvP drives up.

 

Making up excuses for a flawed and idiotic behavior that drives new players and casual players by the dozen, is simply a long process of suicide for PvP. Yes, even Harbinger, is now suffering. Queues ARE getting slower. If people are so much pressed into numbers and skill imbalance that they're forced into making premades just for PvP, most of them will rather just walk away and be done with it.

[Greezt]

You guys keep talking about premades, but no one even agrees on what premades are..

 

 

As far as I've seen, some people consider a group a premade o ly if they are 4-man trinity comp., while others consider a 2-man group a premade no matter what their comp..

 

Anyway, giving premades their own group queue won't work for these reasons - if someone wants to queue with one friend, they'll have to find two more, so they're neither here nor there. That's before counting premades who group to stomp.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Greezt

[helpmewin]

This game lost competetive players in 1-st month after release, few tens keeps played before 8*8 RWZ was deleted. Others just thinking dat farming casuals or bads makes them competetive in PvP, coz never played in any competetive games with real challenge. And this game about premade farming pugs and devs who don't know what PvP and for whom actually they want to cr8. And now what we've got - even casual PvP-rs left this game in another MMOs, coz they tried to cr8 PvP for peoples who don't like PvP, forced them to play, to try, but this makes PvP not fun and now its a ghost town for minority. And i think this is not the last fail. But this game will live untill faboiz buying CM stuff with re-colored pets and mounts. Edited March 29, 2016 by helpmewin

[kweassa]

Harbinger. 11:37 AM UTC.

 

Funniest match in a long, long time. Lame-arse sync-queue Impremaderps slapped around by total Repugs.

 

Ancient Hypergates, the premaderp was so great, none of them even thought of stepping out of each other's babysitting range. The best of the Repteam players, 3~4 of them, in that moment decided to try "take our node, leave it almost undefended, and throw everything at enemy node to stop cap".

 

That worked for 3 times in a row, score turned over, and just before victory, they all ragequit.

 

So, just what "competitive" or "sportsmanly" thing were we supposed to gain by making premades in reg matches again? Chest-thump, slap-around weaker pug players, be an arsehole all smug, but ragequit as soon as things go reverse-derp?

 

(ps) Did I mention the idiots were spawn-camping in a match just before that? Premades. Such precious gems for PvP community. *snort*

[Icykill_]

You guys keep talking about premades, but no one even agrees on what premades are..

 

 

As far as I've seen, some people consider a group a premade o ly if they are 4-man trinity comp., while others consider a 2-man group a premade no matter what their comp..

 

Anyway, giving premades their own group queue won't work for these reasons - if someone wants to queue with one friend, they'll have to find two more, so they're neither here nor there. That's before counting premades who group to stomp.

 

This is a good point and at the core of what I was saying. The concept or terminology of what a premade is these days has changed.

In the past, premades were mainly considered premades because they balanced their groups with a healer, tank and 2 DPS. It's easy to see why this upset a lot of reg/casual players, especially when they were also on voice chat. Sure there are still these premades out there, but they are few and far between. In a 2-6 hour gaming session I might come across 1 or 2, but they are always the same ones. You will see these guys a lot if the amount of people queuing is low, so it might "seem" like this sort of premades are everywhere. The reality is somewhere in the middle.

As my original post pointed out, there are different types of premades.

You have the random premade which usually comes about when you seem to pop a lot with the same people. In the past this would have been good enough to have some good pug fights, but now your "group" of pvpers is watered down with trash as well. Where it used to just be 1 or 2 noobs on your team, now it is 4 or 5 or even 7. So the random premade as it used to be is no longer.

So, how do you keep that casual PVP feeling without having all Bads on your team? It's pretty easy and requires very little effort. If you play casual matches a lot you see the same people a lot. All it takes is a quick msg to them to ask if they want to group. It's not like you have to stand in fleet trying to organise a group. Then all of a sudden you've got yourself a defacto premade.

Even grouping with one other person greatly increases the chances of being in a match with someone who knows how to PVP.

Then there are the other types of premades I mentioned all the way to the dreaded Trinity premade. My OP was about how playing in "any" type of premade is more desirable than playing in a random pug game where most of your team doesn't know their frontside to their backside.

Of course pugs were never meant to be all premades. If people want to blame anyone for this situation then blame Bio.

In the mean time, any players who want to have enjoyable matches are forming "some sort" of "premades".

Love them or hate them, they seem to be the only way to have fun these days

[Kiesu]

You guys keep talking about premades, but no one even agrees on what premades are..

^ this

 

Ever since KOTFE the hardier players left, so I'm currently playing with more social guild for giggles. And playing with them really is, giggles. If we pvp, we sit on TS and laugh, we're not trying to win any harder than on soloque. Sometimes we have pve people join our "premade" with pve gear on and zero pvp skills, because we dont discriminate you on unranked and they feel safer joining pvp with familiar players rather than soloquing

We're playing because we wanna have fun doing something together, and us sitting under same guild name on same WZ most of the time doesnt mean we're actually any good together.

 

So remember, theres always two kind of premades. The steamrollers, and buds for giggles. And I dont want to take premades away because it would effectively even further kill social play.

[Greezt]

That's kinda true, sadly. Unless you enjoy banging your head against a wall of imbalance, get yourself a friend and queue together.

[thebutthat]

Careful what you wish for. Incoming single player PVP matches, to complete the single player MMO.

[kweassa]

This is a good point and at the core of what I was saying. The concept or terminology of what a premade is these days has changed.

In the past, premades were mainly considered premades because they balanced their groups with a healer, tank and 2 DPS. It's easy to see why this upset a lot of reg/casual players, especially when they were also on voice chat. Sure there are still these premades out there, but they are few and far between. In a 2-6 hour gaming session I might come across 1 or 2, but they are always the same ones. You will see these guys a lot if the amount of people queuing is low, so it might "seem" like this sort of premades are everywhere. The reality is somewhere in the middle.

As my original post pointed out, there are different types of premades.

You have the random premade which usually comes about when you seem to pop a lot with the same people. In the past this would have been good enough to have some good pug fights, but now your "group" of pvpers is watered down with trash as well. Where it used to just be 1 or 2 noobs on your team, now it is 4 or 5 or even 7. So the random premade as it used to be is no longer.

So, how do you keep that casual PVP feeling without having all Bads on your team? It's pretty easy and requires very little effort. If you play casual matches a lot you see the same people a lot. All it takes is a quick msg to them to ask if they want to group. It's not like you have to stand in fleet trying to organise a group. Then all of a sudden you've got yourself a defacto premade.

Even grouping with one other person greatly increases the chances of being in a match with someone who knows how to PVP.

Then there are the other types of premades I mentioned all the way to the dreaded Trinity premade. My OP was about how playing in "any" type of premade is more desirable than playing in a random pug game where most of your team doesn't know their frontside to their backside.

Of course pugs were never meant to be all premades. If people want to blame anyone for this situation then blame Bio.

In the mean time, any players who want to have enjoyable matches are forming "some sort" of "premades".

Love them or hate them, they seem to be the only way to have fun these days

 

Then you'll be friggin' happy to know that the same premaderpshi*s, in a WZ that can't afford different tactics like that, simply crushed the Reps after that with just raw, stupid, healing power after that for like 5~6 matches in a row.

 

So, basically, its nothing but a cheap-arse way to reward sleazepiles of terribads by breaking the base level of game balance in terms of player participation.

 

I can make you a bet and a guarantee, that if a matchmaking system takes place that always pits a premade against another, and NEVER begins a game where it pits premades against casual pugs. we'll be seeing just what all that 'friendship' and 'competitive spirit' is worth to those people.

 

The higher quality of premades, real PvP guildstuff that would rather not play against pugs, these guys I know to be at the level of your praise, and them I can respect. The rest 99% of normal premades you see, are simply nothing more than exploiters. The only reason they win is simply by flocking to a single faction, take the path of least resistance, and simply DERP.

 

I cannot in my good conscience condone any of such behavior as 'good for PvP', because it isn't. It breeds a horde of terribads who've grown so accustomed to roflstomping easy prey, the moment they are told that they'll be facing same premade levels, they break everything up and go hide into regs. That's "premades" for you.

Edited March 29, 2016 by kweassa

[Tsetso]

Support matchmaking so that premades are always matched up with premades, and NEVER against pug teams.

 

Matchmaking is not going to happen unless there are cross-server queues because otherwise the queue times are going to skyrocket.

[kweassa]

Matchmaking is not going to happen unless there are cross-server queues because otherwise the queue times are going to skyrocket.

 

Break up the premade. Insta queues for you.

[Tsetso]

Break up the premade. Insta queues for you.

 

On second thought matchmaking( even without cross-server ) would solve the problem of class balance - when queue times for healing sorc skyrockets they'll just requeue as dps and the game would be a lot more healthy.

[Kiesu]

Break up the premade. Insta queues for you.

Why so insistent on not letting people play together? Because no other sort of premade exists than pvp guild steamrollers? Well thats a pretty narrow view innit

[Wimbleton]

People getting crushed just want something to blame it on besides themselves. Premade and Jugg are the current targets. If they changed premade and jugg it would be something else. There is one constant. Good players win, bad players whine.

[Icykill_]

Then you'll be friggin' happy to know that the same premaderpshi*s, in a WZ that can't afford different tactics like that, simply crushed the Reps after that with just raw, stupid, healing power after that for like 5~6 matches in a row.

 

So, basically, its nothing but a cheap-arse way to reward sleazepiles of terribads by breaking the base level of game balance in terms of player participation.

 

I can make you a bet and a guarantee, that if a matchmaking system takes place that always pits a premade against another, and NEVER begins a game where it pits premades against casual pugs. we'll be seeing just what all that 'friendship' and 'competitive spirit' is worth to those people.

 

The higher quality of premades, real PvP guildstuff that would rather not play against pugs, these guys I know to be at the level of your praise, and them I can respect. The rest 99% of normal premades you see, are simply nothing more than exploiters. The only reason they win is simply by flocking to a single faction, take the path of least resistance, and simply DERP.

 

I cannot in my good conscience condone any of such behavior as 'good for PvP', because it isn't. It breeds a horde of terribads who've grown so accustomed to roflstomping easy prey, the moment they are told that they'll be facing same premade levels, they break everything up and go hide into regs. That's "premades" for you.

 

Im not sure you understand what I am saying or maybe I don't understand yours. I'm not pointing fingers at factions or tactics. My whole point is if you want to play with pvpers and not complete idiots who really don't want to be there to start with, then find some pvpers to play with. You don't need to be ina PVP guild, I often play with lots of different people from all different guilds. I know them because we see each other in matches a lot. We all got tired of getting the same bad, uninterested players on our teams. So now if we see one another we see if anyone wants to group.

I'm not sure how that is exploiting anything?? You'll find most of the premades like this are in groups to avoid bad players. Unless you are suggesting people are cheating by doing this?

As for the ridiculous amount of healing, I actually find the reps run 2-3 times more healers than imps. But that's a completely different discussion.

One thing you did mention was people taking the easiest path to victory by jumping onto the faction that is dominating. Unfortunately that's just human behaviour and has nothing to do with forming groups so that you get to play with other pvpers. You might actually find it interesting to know that lots of imps have rolled rep toons so we can play against each other. The interesting thing about this is the amount of PVE people who form premade healer groups on the rep side. Usually they have 3 healers and a tank or 2 healers, 2 tanks. It seems to me that the rep PVE people form premades more than imps do. Also considering that a lot of these people are also operations players it goes to reason that they do actually spend time to form premades like they do for operations.

As for match making you're talking to people who have been asking for match making since the game was launched. Bio have never or will never impliment it. We would all like some sort of match making that at least sort of worked, but we have nothing. Most of us gave up long ago trying to get the Devs to listen.

I would love a "match making" system as you put it, premades vs premades in 8man WZs.... Oh wait, we used to have that.. It was called 8 man ranked and the Devs took it away and gave us arena ranked, which personally I hate (but again, a different discussion)

Like I said at the start of my first post, Bio have ruined or degraded PVP with lots of bad choices and also no listening. We all know it, most of us know what they are so I didn't want to rehash all the old threads.

At the end of the day, Bio have engineered the problems we face in PVP. So many of my friends, guild mates and associates have left this game because of how bad the quality has gotten.

If you or anyone else can suggest a realistic, in "our" power to impliment solution for improving the quality of matches, that doesn't require Bioware doing anything, then I'm sure we would be interested to hear. My post was all about how premades in any size, type or form are at least making PVP fun again.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

Matchmaking is not going to happen unless there are cross-server queues because otherwise the queue times are going to skyrocket.

 

Even then they won't do it. If they were going to do it they could have done it when we had enough players on each server to support it.

[Icykill_]

Break up the premade. Insta queues for you.

 

How does that work? Same amount of people queueing regardless of wether they are premade or not.

[Icykill_]

People getting crushed just want something to blame it on besides themselves. Premade and Jugg are the current targets. If they changed premade and jugg it would be something else. There is one constant. Good players win, bad players whine.

 

Well put !!

 

Game is hard. Blame everyone and everything except being bad.

Good players win... Noobs lose... Losing leads to whining... Whining leads to hate... Hate leads to blame... Blame leads to the forums...

[Jedi_riches]

* Bio have "made" PVE people play PVP to get certain companions, which RP and lots of PVE people feel they need.

* Bio introduced conquest points in PVP and made it one of the easiest ways for PVE people to get them

 

I think that these are 2 huge reasons for making premades, you have so many PvE players taking part in PvP now for reasons above that chances are if you pug and solo queue its entirely possible that you could end up with a team who while they are there, their focus is on anything other than the outcome of the match.

 

Premades is really the only way that your team will be full of people who do want to be there and do care about the outcome of the match. Quite frankly if I were a serious about PvP I would always prefer to do a premade as that is the only way to ensure you know 100% of your team want to actually play the warzone.

 

I think without Pierce or Forex and remove warzones from conquests then premades would be used less as it would be left for the more serious PvP'ers though I don't know what that would do to queue times.

[Polobear]

People getting crushed just want something to blame it on besides themselves. Premade and Jugg are the current targets. If they changed premade and jugg it would be something else. There is one constant. Good players win, bad players whine.

 

This.

 

Bad players mark juggs and snipers and complain that they can't kill anyone.

 

Bad players ignore properly marked healers and continue to attack dps/tanks.

 

Bad players turn their backs to objectives and act surprised when they get ninja'd.

 

Bad players stand right on top of the nodes and act surprised when they get sap capped.

 

Bad players don't gear properly and act surprised when they melt like butter.

 

Then, bad players come to the forums and blame premades. Bad players are blamecasters. Everything/everyone is stacked against them to prevent their success. Common sense goes a long way, but blamers are gonna blame.

[Icykill_]

This.

 

Bad players mark juggs and snipers and complain that they can't kill anyone.

 

Bad players ignore properly marked healers and continue to attack dps/tanks.

 

Bad players turn their backs to objectives and act surprised when they get ninja'd.

 

Bad players stand right on top of the nodes and act surprised when they get sap capped.

 

Bad players don't gear properly and act surprised when they melt like butter.

 

Then, bad players come to the forums and blame premades. Bad players are blamecasters. Everything/everyone is stacked against them to prevent their success. Common sense goes a long way, but blamers are gonna blame.

 

Yeah, actually what is it with all these bad people marking non healers or even marking your own team? It's so frustrating when you see a mark moving across the map at distance and you rush there to intercept a lone healer only to find out it's not a healer and you've run into a Jugg.

My screen is zoomed out a fair way. I rely on proper target marks to make life a little easier when I'm tracking healers not in my area.

[-Bob-]

People getting crushed just want something to blame it on besides themselves. Premade and Jugg are the current targets. If they changed premade and jugg it would be something else. There is one constant. Good players win, bad players whine.

Couldn't agree more