Class Improvements

[Lenlo]

This is sort of a collection thread for any buffs we feel the Guardian/Juggernaught sub-class needs.

 

I've been gone for a while so I'm interested to see what the community feels is underpowered or weirdly implemented.

[petergohan]

we need the damage from blade dance back, when it was master strike.

[Lenlo]

Yeah, I've noticed that. Maybe they could work that into the vigilance tree since that spec centers around blade dance.

[sumquy]

if i understand correctly, this thread is for people who think that juggs need to be putting out more damage? or have better survivability?

[GrandLordMenace]

deleted cause new season. Edited April 28, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[Vaxael]

On a similar note, I am working on a compilation of future ability ideas that should be implemented if the level cap increases again. It includes all specs of all classes, and is primarily molded by community suggestions, as I want it to be based off of what the community wants. I do my best to keep everything balanced and even, but constructive feedback is welcomed and encouraged! Thank you!

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=880409

[GrandLordMenace]

After the new ranked season, here's my honest opinion:

 

Ravage on the move is meh, but we need our old Ravage damage back. After seeing these new jugg numbers, we're behind everyone in yolos except for commandos in terms of total # of players with tier 1, plus we're the second most played class in the season.

 

Enraged Defense needs to be affected by alacrity cooldownwise, or something to not gimp it survivability wise when using alacrity.

 

Plasma Brand/Shatter needs a lot of it's damage returned, the nerfs in 4.0 to Plasma brand were kind of insane. Force Rush should be a one stack deal, this second stack type thing is idiotic.

 

I'm also thinking that Enure should not remove health when it goes away, just if you are over your maximum health, it reverts you to your maximum health.

[Anishor]

After the new ranked season, here's my honest opinion:

 

Ravage on the move is meh, but we need our old Ravage damage back. After seeing these new jugg numbers, we're behind everyone in yolos except for commandos in terms of total # of players with tier 1, plus we're the second most played class in the season.

 

Enraged Defense needs to be affected by alacrity cooldownwise, or something to not gimp it survivability wise when using alacrity.

 

Plasma Brand/Shatter needs a lot of it's damage returned, the nerfs in 4.0 to Plasma brand were kind of insane. Force Rush should be a one stack deal, this second stack type thing is idiotic.

 

I'm also thinking that Enure should not remove health when it goes away, just if you are over your maximum health, it reverts you to your maximum health.

 

Agree on your points about Veng, though I did like hte rhythm of getting two stacks.

For Rage:

 

1. Needs DOT dmg reduction/protection

2. Increase force lash damage ( extra force damage on slash, repost, cyclone ) to increase sustained dmg.

3. Maybe a dmg reduction increase after using blade blitz. if the enure change doesn't happen.

 

Jugs/Guards suffer more than any class except PT when under focus fire. The only time I now don't get focused is if I'm in match with a PT.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Anishor

[Gyronamics]

For Rage:

 

1. Needs DOT dmg reduction

2. Increase force lash damage ( extra force damage on slash, repost, cyclone )

3. Maybe a dmg reduction increase after using blade blitz. if the enure change doesn't happen.

 

Jugs/Guards suffer more than any class except PT when under focus fire. The only time I now don't get focused is if I'm in match with a PT.

 

Call NASA and tell them to arrange a rocket to recover my sides from orbit.

 

You're actually trying to sell the line that Jugs have poor survivability.

 

Classes that are genuinely horrible when focused are not brought to ranked and that ones which can brush off focus fire are overperforming.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Gyronamics

[sumquy]

Call NASA and tell them to arrange a rocket to recover my sides from orbit.

 

You're actually trying to sell the line that Jugs have poor survivability.

 

Classes that are genuinely horrible when focused are not brought to ranked and that ones which can brush off focus fire are overperforming.

 

ikr? and he's not the only one either. right here on the front page of the jugg/guardian sub, there are 2 other threads basically asking for the same thing.

[Anishor]

In Ranked yes their ability to survive is pretty low, particularly Rage/Focus because they have no disengaging tools, or ability to mitigate focus fire. Yes they do have a lot of self healing but that gets used up really quickly because they don't have the tools do anything after it. The yolo boards are pretty good indication of overall class strength. And yes it is a difficult balancing challenge because it would be easy to make Jugs/Guards OP.

 

and if you donkeys read what is being suggest by myself and Rydarius, none of it is a huge increase to survability.

 

This is basically what I've been saying for ages. Guardians have no real mitigation cooldowns in the tech based dotspread meta, and our cooldowns skew heavily towards 1v1 self healing, and scales horribly the more people are focusing you. You basically need to skank to get a respectable rating tbh, and we don't have the single target DPS in Vig to matter, nor the survivability in Rage to be competitive.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Anishor

[GrandLordMenace]

Call NASA and tell them to arrange a rocket to recover my sides from orbit.

 

You're actually trying to sell the line that Jugs have poor survivability.

 

Classes that are genuinely horrible when focused are not brought to ranked and that ones which can brush off focus fire are overperforming.

 

Check the amount of people at 1600 in ranked. You're still conforming to the "JUGGS HAVE THREE LIVES ARGUMENT".

 

The only class worse than Guardians right now is Mercenary, everyone else has a higher total number of players at 1600 or more in ranked, including snipers. What's even funnier, is that Guardians are the second most played class in yolo ranked right now. Just because a regstar can't get past their petty biases, doesn't mean you are the end all be all of class balance.

 

MEEEETRIC!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=880758

 

https://torcommunity.com/database/arena-stats

 

Total # at 1600+ as of few days ago

 

Sage/Sorc - 90

Jugg/Guardian - 19

Sent/Mara - 26

Shadow/Sin - 22

Vanguard/PT - 92

Merc/Mando - 14

GS/Sniper - 27

Op/Scoundrel - 36

 

Also, squishy classes doesn't mean they are incapable of performing. PTs are doing amazing, and generally they are considered squish.

Edited April 28, 2016 by CommunityDroidEU
Rude

[Gyronamics]

Check the amount of people at 1600 in ranked...

 

Check the number of people in the ladders, they say that Jugg is considered a low risk class to farm tokens, non-sorc ranged is high risk and also that numbers over 1600 are so low that they are easily corrupted with ranked system abuse:

PT: 90 / 1812 * 100 = 4.97%

Sorc: 160 / 4349 * 100 = 3.68%

Sniper: 29 / 808 * 100 = 3.59%

Operative: 33 / 1502 * 100 = 2.20%

Mara: 26 / 1964 * 100 = 1.32%

Merc: 13 / 1312 * 100 = 0.99%

Sin: 21 / 2324 * 100 = 0.90%

Jugg: 18 / 2888 * 100 = 0.62%

 

 

...squishy classes doesn't mean they are incapable of performing. PTs are doing amazing, and generally they are considered squish.

 

The complaint was that jugs were not big enough meatbags.

 

PT are not doing well because of sponging damage, they're doing well because they are semi ranged, anti-kite and the one dps spec has disgusting burst damage on a simple system with great controls to guarantee it having an effect.

 

PT advantages over other melee translate from pve to regs to ranked and they overperform in all of those.

 

Focusing a PT isn't all that great because what it's really good at is dumping all cooldowns into killing a target and the survivability it has is more than enough to get that done. Oddly enough this is good for the deathmatch format.

 

Jugs have excessive survivability but much less damage pressure which makes them obnoxious when it comes to objective play where being a meatbag is valuable but if you have no objectives to force proximity then every other class has tools to get away from them.

 

So no, a larger meatbag isn't a good solution.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Gyronamics

[GrandLordMenace]

Check the number of people in the ladders, they say that Jugg is considered a low risk class to farm tokens, non-sorc ranged is high risk and also that numbers over 1600 are so low that they are easily corrupted with ranked system abuse:

 

 

 

 

 

The complaint was that jugs were not big enough meatbags.

 

PT are not doing well because of sponging damage, they're doing well because they are semi ranged, anti-kite and the one dps spec has disgusting burst damage on a simple system with great controls to guarantee it having an effect.

 

PT advantages over other melee translate from pve to regs to ranked and they overperform in all of those.

 

Focusing a PT isn't all that great because what it's really good at is dumping all cooldowns into killing a target and the survivability it has is more than enough to get that done. Oddly enough this is good for the deathmatch format.

 

Jugs have excessive survivability but much less damage pressure which makes them obnoxious when it comes to objective play where being a meatbag is valuable but if you have no objectives to force proximity then every other class has tools to get away from them.

 

So no, a larger meatbag isn't a good solution.

 

The only low risk class to farm tokens is a sorc DPS, matter of fact is that there's NO low risk class to farm tokens, the nature of tokens literally means that persistence nets you them, not actual skill or balance... the top rated classes aren't "low risk," you're just more likely to get tokens faster because they are simply stronger classes. Why would someone want to run a Jugg or Guardian to grind tokens consistently? That doesn't even begin to make sense due to their rating being ****. It is far more likely that the stereotype of them having high survivability and doing well in regs gives them an allure that does not hold up in ranked.

 

Also,I advocated for more damage, and only marginally more survivability. I don't think Guardians need like, 2 EDs, just minor buffs to certain cooldowns to make them scale better with stats. If I had it my way, ED would be removed from the game and replaced with some form of Damage reduction so that it'd scale better against multiple opponents.

 

Enraged Defense needs to be affected by alacrity cooldownwise, or something to not gimp it survivability wise when using alacrity.

 

I'm also thinking that Enure should not remove health when it goes away, just if you are over your maximum health, it reverts you to your maximum health.

Edited April 28, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[Anishor]

and the only defenses improvements I suggested were giving Rage innate dot dmg reduction like several other specs get. Rage is considerably has a lot less survability than Veng. The other suggestions for Rage has to do with sustained dmg output.

[Kazz_Devlin]

The ability to skank tank removed!!

Heal to full reduced to max of 15% of health like rest of DPS classes ( or at Very least a more visually acute cue when that ability is up hard to see in crowds. impossible to find it on a constantly fluctuating icon bar)

DPS spec shouldn't have the survivability that it does! If your putting out high DPS you should be a dam glass cannon. If you want to keep the defense neuter the DPS output which would put you at medium DPS output and medium survivability. High DPS output coupled with High defense and we get influx of jugs running around because of the I win proclivity. (hence the reason 3 out 8 players are usually a jug! Couple that with 3 out of 8 are bubble princess's its no wonder PVP is dying)

[petergohan]

exactly this, skank is so OP right now, with the new ways stats are calculated and set on the mods, you can basically get the same numbers as immortal/defense that you get at vengeance/vigilance, and that is wrong on so many levels.

 

Not to mention that we have a bugged utility, that would make us benefit a lot if working properly.

[KWONRYU]

Would be nice if Immortal Juggernaut got a Force Pull as well.

 

Pull up to 8 Enemies towards you within 15 Meters.

 

Force Vacuum.

Instant

Cooldown: 45s

Range: 15m

[Torvai]

And Immortal needs a way to give Aegis Buff to themselves without the use of Aegis Assault first, so we can aoe tank efficiently. Like Enrage gives the buff as well. So you can charge+enrage+ crushing blow into a group without having to use aegis first.

[AdjeYo]

And Immortal needs a way to give Aegis Buff to themselves without the use of Aegis Assault first, so we can aoe tank efficiently. Like Enrage gives the buff as well. So you can charge+enrage+ crushing blow into a group without having to use aegis first.

 

Or armour reduction back