Are tanks not supposed to feel "tanky" in midbies (41 - 64 bracket)?

[Volxen]

Are tanks not supposed to feel "tanky" in midbies (41 - 64 bracket)? I was playing on my level 55 vanguard tank (shield specialist spec) last night, and whenever I was without the support of a healer, I was getting bursted down pretty fast. It felt like I was playing Tactics, except I hit like a wet noodle but would go down almost as fast. In particular, I had several warzones where I was solo guarding the grass node on civil war, and I kept getting bursted down by a lone assassin who kept trying to take our node. His opener from stealth alone would nearly take away half of my health, and all of his subsequent attacks were so hard-hitting. He did seem to know what he was doing and was playing his class well, but it just surprised me how quickly he was able to burst me down in a 1 vs 1. It feels like I'm currently doing about half or less the damage in shield specialist that I would normally do in tactics, yet I'm only surviving maybe a few more GCDs in tank spec. In other words, the reduction in damage seems to be far, far more than the increase in my defenses and survivability.

 

So I'm just wondering, is that simply how it is for tanks in midbies? Will I feel a lot more "tanky" when I get to level 65 and have a set of fully modded and augmented tank PVP gear (including the tank set bonus)?

[Wimbleton]

The way bolstering works you won't have all that many more hp than a dps. You're also missing at least 1 utility point. Other than those two things you'll still be quite tanky. Maybe play more skank tankish in midbies.

[AutoCocker]

Since 4.0 tank stats are pretty much useless in PvP now. This is why you see armies of "Skank Tanks" running around these days. Basically if you want to be a tank stack as much endurance as possible and put the rest into power and crit. Your survivability will go way up and you can actually do enough damage to kill someone.

[Volxen]

Since 4.0 tank stats are pretty much useless in PvP now. This is why you see armies of "Skank Tanks" running around these days. Basically if you want to be a tank stack as much endurance as possible and put the rest into power and crit. Your survivability will go way up and you can actually do enough damage to kill someone.

 

I keep hearing the term "skank tank" on these forums, so I want to make sure I correctly understand what it means. A "skank tank" is someone who is tank spec (e.g., shield specialist), but just takes DPS gear and stacks endurance and then power/crit, correct? As opposed to a DPS spec (e.g., Tactics) doing the same thing (stacking endurance and then power/crit).

[AutoCocker]

Yup that pretty much sums it up.

[jedcjedcjedc]

a tank with no healer is basically a poor mans dps in this meta.

[Volxen]

a tank with no healer is basically a poor mans dps in this meta.

 

Yes, that's what struck me as odd -- I feel like I can facetank a whole lot more on my sage healer than I can on my vanguard tank. Though it does sound like it will get better once I get my vanguard up to 65 so I can start heavily stacking endurance and become a HP meatshield (hopefully).

[jedcjedcjedc]

Yes, that's what struck me as odd -- I feel like I can facetank a whole lot more on my sage healer than I can on my vanguard tank. Though it does sound like it will get better once I get my vanguard up to 65 so I can start heavily stacking endurance and become a HP meatshield (hopefully).

 

you can "facetank" better as any healer than a tank with no healer because all you have to do is keep your own health up. a tank can't replenish his health, but he can reduce the damage others take. there is a difference. It doesn't make much of one though since without a healer the opposing dps is either going to take out the person he is hitting or take you out from damage through guard, unless you're both focusing the same enemy and get a chance to get OOC.

[Kaedusz]

Why would you wanna play a tank anyway? Too many tanks( and healers) as of late, in 65.

 

roll a dps + play metal music = the way to go

Edited March 20, 2016 by Kaedusz

[foxmob]

a tank with no healer is basically a poor mans dps in this meta.

 

nah. but you do need someone worth guarding. like...if a good sage, mando or sniper has a tank with him, that's huuugh. or a mara. basically, any class that's squishy but can burst hard is going to wreck havoc with a guard cuz they cannot be so quicky burst down.

 

honestly, I think a good tank is the most important player in the game. even though he's also the most reliant on having worthwhile players to guard.

[jedcjedcjedc]

nah. but you do need someone worth guarding. like...if a good sage, mando or sniper has a tank with him, that's huuugh. or a mara. basically, any class that's squishy but can burst hard is going to wreck havoc with a guard cuz they cannot be so quicky burst down.

 

honestly, I think a good tank is the most important player in the game. even though he's also the most reliant on having worthwhile players to guard.

 

ya, the target isn't going to be taking as much damage, but you're going down either way. you'll burn through those DCD's like a fat kid through cake and still be eating half of those crits, especially if you're guarding someone without offheals like a mara or pt.

[LadyDarkkitten]

Exactly. This is why I see very few tankasins and they spend most of the time in the spawn area if they try to guard. Seriously 12 deaths and 110k protection, when as a dps I'm getting 80k protection by just staying alive and taunting on cd. Without a healer your better off not guarding at all and just using your taunts and cc to mitigate team damage.

 

Can't stun or knockback 2 ravaging maras from that sniper when your in the graveyard.

[Volxen]

Since 4.0 tank stats are pretty much useless in PvP now. This is why you see armies of "Skank Tanks" running around these days. Basically if you want to be a tank stack as much endurance as possible and put the rest into power and crit. Your survivability will go way up and you can actually do enough damage to kill someone.

 

Also, are all three tank classes (vanguard, guardian, and shadow) equally viable at "skank tanking", or are some tank classes better at it than others?

[LadyDarkkitten]

Well if you understand that defense shield and absorb don't work for pvp like they should:

 

Sins rely on dark ward and shielding all the things

powertechs are naturally tough with a little self healing

 

Jugs use their abilties to throw up defenses. like scream gives an absorb shield. Retaliate if I remember correctly gives +2% to incoming damage reduction. Crush blow... well you get the idea.

 

This is why Jug tanks are the best in pvp. The reason they are good tanks remains and applies within pvp whereas the major sin tanking mechanic is totally negated and your now running around wearing light armour getting wrecked by healers.

 

I can only say from my own experience and from witnessing others that Jug tanking is the way to go. You will know nothing but tears and frustration as a tankassin ESPECALLY if you played one in its glory days ie prior to 2.4.

[Lhancelot]

Are tanks not supposed to feel "tanky" in midbies (41 - 64 bracket)? I was playing on my level 55 vanguard tank (shield specialist spec) last night, and whenever I was without the support of a healer, I was getting bursted down pretty fast. It felt like I was playing Tactics, except I hit like a wet noodle but would go down almost as fast. In particular, I had several warzones where I was solo guarding the grass node on civil war, and I kept getting bursted down by a lone assassin who kept trying to take our node. His opener from stealth alone would nearly take away half of my health, and all of his subsequent attacks were so hard-hitting. He did seem to know what he was doing and was playing his class well, but it just surprised me how quickly he was able to burst me down in a 1 vs 1. It feels like I'm currently doing about half or less the damage in shield specialist that I would normally do in tactics, yet I'm only surviving maybe a few more GCDs in tank spec. In other words, the reduction in damage seems to be far, far more than the increase in my defenses and survivability.

 

So I'm just wondering, is that simply how it is for tanks in midbies? Will I feel a lot more "tanky" when I get to level 65 and have a set of fully modded and augmented tank PVP gear (including the tank set bonus)?

 

Once you get to 65, and you can min/max your gears you should have 85-90k hps as a tank in pvp. With all utilities you will be better also.

 

The thing is, you won't be nearly as effective or find it much fun playing a tank in pugs. You would be way better off in a designated premade with a designated healer that actually cares that you guard them and others.

 

Otherwise, in a pug you end up swapping guard on a bunch of unappreciative players who will not bother healing you or supporting you.

 

I have seen all three tanks do fine in regs. PTs are said to be easiest because they have a lot of innate/baked in defensives requiring less tactical skill to perform well.

 

Play whatever tank you want, you will do best on the one you enjoy the most. My 2cents.

[foxmob]

Well if you understand that defense shield and absorb don't work for pvp like they should:.

 

stop.

 

stop with this ****.

 

I understand that it's a different beast entirely when you have the same basic hp as dps in mids. but stop this ********* about tank stats being worthless. that's by design. you're supposed to take the high endurance as a tank. you're not supposed to aborb or dodge a significant portion of attacks. that would make tanks utterly broken in PVP. you're not tanking raid bosses. the dmg output in pvp is significantly lower than what PVE raid bosses put out. all those tank stats are necessary to tank a raid boss. they absolutely are not necessary to tank a PVP encounter. you are supposed to die in pvp. everyone is.

Edited March 20, 2016 by foxmob

[kweassa]

stop.

 

stop with this ****.

 

I understand that it's a different beast entirely when you have the same basic hp as dps in mids. but stop this ********* about tank stats being worthless. that's by design. you're supposed to take the high endurance as a tank. you're not supposed to aborb or dodge a significant portion of attacks. that would make tanks utterly broken in PVP. you're not tanking raid bosses. the dmg output in pvp is significantly lower than what PVE raid bosses put out. all those tank stats are necessary to tank a raid boss. they absolutely are not necessary to tank a PVP encounter. you are supposed to die in pvp. everyone is.

 

So many wrong and clueless comments here that I don't even know where to start.

[TheCourier-]

Since 4.0 tank stats are pretty much useless in PvP now. This is why you see armies of "Skank Tanks" running around these days.

 

That's not why tanks are running DPS gear. The reason that I play jugg tank with DPS gear is because I'll routinely do over 2500 DPS, while doing around 1 million protection. Jugg tank with DPS gear does so much DPS, that gearing for defense isn't the best option. If jugg and assassin tank didn't hit for 15k (jugg tank crushing blow, assassin tank deprevating bolts), then high endurance, high shield chance would be the way to go for PVP. It is not uncommon for a tank to do over half of a DPS's damage in team ranked.

[TheCourier-]

So many wrong and clueless comments here that I don't even know where to start.

 

He's not clueless about tank gear, although I disagree that everyone in SWTOR PVP is meant to die. If a tank healer combo is more skilled than 2 DPS, they should be able to hold out indefinitely. If 2 DPS are more skilled than a tank healer combo, then the tank healer combo should be beat.

 

Tanks in PVP with full defense, high endurance gear, can last for literally 2-3 minutes with a healer against 2-3 DPS, even if the DPS are skilled. I've played as a healer with 2 of the best tanks that played SWTOR. 2-3 players literally wouldn't kill myself and my guild's tanks.

 

The thing that causes tanks to use DPS gear in PVP is because Bioware decided to buff jugg tank's DPS instead of its threat generation. This caused jugg to turn from a "best to guard, worst for DPS" tank, to a 100% viable DPS tank for ranked and regular WZs.

Edited March 20, 2016 by TheCourier-

[AlrikFassbauer]

My next experiment is to use high endurance for my Gunslinger.

[kweassa]

Tanks in PVP with full defense, high endurance gear, can last for literally 2-3 minutes with a healer against 2-3 DPS, even if the DPS are skilled. I've played as a healer with 2 of the best tanks that played SWTOR. 2-3 players literally wouldn't kill myself and my guild's tanks.

 

Friend, I AM one of those "full defense" tanks since day1 of reaching max level which was 5 years ago. Some people bring up 4.0 changes, but frankly speaking the way tanking stats were set up, it was garbage since day 1 of launch. All throughout 1.0~1.6 the first 'generation' of SWTOR PvP greats and numbers-analyzers have already been pointing out these problems since then.

 

Simply put, the Defense stat in PvP is hit by dual problems -- one being that it is way too easy to bypass it completely, and the other being that its investment-to-reward ratio is just terrible since the stat hits softcap around 25% -- which is much too low to be of any significance in terms of self-defense.

 

The only reason I'm toting a full-defense oriented guardian build is because I'm a looney odd-ball who takes pride in doing different things just for the sake of it, as well as I despise people who blindly follow FotMs.

 

On average I can get my defense chance up to around 35~40% levels at a steady rate -- which the "rewards" are maybe that I survive 5 seconds longer than a 'skank' would under same amount of pressure with no healer around. For those extra 5 seconds, I give up a humongous proportion of damage which might have actually upped my chances of survival by taking out an enemy much quicker, and therefore removing a source of incoming damage.

 

I retain the build out of my own code of pride, but nobody in their right mind would recommend a real "tank-build" for PvP because its been messed up since the beginning of this game.

 

 

The thing that causes tanks to use DPS gear in PVP is because Bioware decided to buff jugg tank's DPS instead of its threat generation. This caused jugg to turn from a "best to guard, worst for DPS" tank, to a 100% viable DPS tank for ranked and regular WZs.

 

You see, this is wrong.

 

Like I said, People have been doing 'skank' way before 4.0. Even as early as like 1.1~1.5, analysis from guys like Taugrim in those days have already shown to the community that 'tank' builds aren't exactly up to snuff. Did the relatively recent changes have some effect in this trend? Sure, it did. But by no means is it the beginning of the trend, because the main problem has deeper roots that involves efficiency of the stats.

 

The reason skanks exist, is that its an easy-compromise cop-out method of building a single character that fills three roles in game. As long as you have someone who can constantly be your pocket healer, a "skank" build provides (1) a portable +50% meatshield for your healer, (2) an active meatshield that draws fire and absorbs a huge amount of enemy focus fire with active tanking/defensive skills, and (3) the role of a main melee DPS.

 

In theory, the most prominent main melee DPS should have been the sent/maras, except this class doesn't even come close in terms of general efficiency in a real match, because while theoretically sent/maras do have a significantly higher melee damage than even the best of 'skanks', the survivability is incomparable to a 'skank', and therefore its own limitations inhibit their ability to DPS to their max potential. Besides, they can't taunt, nor can they guard.

 

Hence, the 'skank'. The increased damage which acts as aggro boost in PvE is generally nothing more than an added bonus, because in the early days people were still building defense-oriented tanks for PvE, and 'skanks' were generally considered for PvP.

 

In the end, unless the two restrictions -- the easy-peasy bypass of Defense stat, and the punitively low efficiency of Defense investment -- is fixed (and some changes take place to encourage tanks to actually build for tanking stats to be able to tank), the 'skank' thing is bound to go on even if 4.0 changes are reverted.

 

Again, it was like this since day1. Most of the devs overestimated the impact of Defense in regards to PvP, and simply messed up with the attack type/damage type designations and their effects against defense.

[kweassa]

The way out of this 'skank' trend would be the following:

 

1. Redesign how active tanking skills on CDs work, so that their efficiency is directly linked to the base amount of Defense/Shield stat -- basically, a 'skank' that just dumps all defense and invests into DPS will have that much weaker active tanking skills, as well as guard.

 

 

2. Get rid of the bypass to Defense for the Tech/Force damage type, and simply let the Defense Chance determine straight forward hit/miss. There could be some amount of tweaks here to balance things out, such as maybe Tech/Force being able to be parried at a lower chance.

 

But frankly, 30~40% isn't such a high factor to be considered 'overpowered', because empirically speaking, relying on experiences from all sorts of different MMOGs that came and went during the years, usually a "evasion/parry/dodge/whatever-your-game-calls-it" type of chance-based defense mechanic becomes noticeably prevalent once it surpasses a 60% chance or so.

 

When a chance-based defense mechanic passes 60% and starts reaching 70%, that's the point when players usually notice its effects very clearly, and the mechanic is considered good enough to be a main defense mechanic --- as in, a character with almost to no resistances at all, would still feel quite tanky and survivable because the chance-based defensive mechanic fires off often enough to be considered a stable method of defense.

 

When the chance is initially low, and severely contained to maybe like 28~30% even with over 2,000 points into Defense, this isn't going to break anything, because the defense chance is barely enough to be considered an additional layer of defense on top of initial resistances.

 

Oh yes, guardians/juggs will feel a more tanky, sure enough. Because, when Defense can actually defend against all four types -- melee/ranged/tech/force -- their ability to withstand fire will be steady even after all the active defenses are used and on cooldown. But only if they're a real defense tank, that hits with a featherduster.

 

.....

 

These two lines of changes, and people won't be thinking of building a 'skank' in the first place, because there is no reason to.

Edited March 20, 2016 by kweassa

[phalczen]

Tanks in PVP with full defense, high endurance gear

 

So, I'm not sure what this really means on several levels. B mods by definition sacrifice Defense Rating for endurance. Similarly, there are essentially 3 versions of enhancements running the spectrum from high shield/def or shield/abs to low defensive stats but high endurance. And of course we are all aware that high endurance relics actually have dps procs, and the tanking relics have mastery on them.

 

So what are you really saying? You cannot have "full defensive stats" and have high endurance gear at the same time, even if you exclude the ironic high endurance dps relics vs. the mastery tanking relics. And, as other posters have pointed out, Defense Rating by itself can only protect you from white damage, which may be a large % of incoming damage from some classes but certainly not the majority of all incoming damage in regs. So when you say "full defense", do you really mean taking B mods and high endurance/shield/defense enhancements, or optimizing your stats according to a mean mitigation profile like we do for operations?

Edited March 20, 2016 by phalczen

[TheCourier-]

So, I'm not sure what this really means on several levels. B mods by definition sacrifice Defense Rating for endurance. Similarly, there are essentially 3 versions of enhancements running the spectrum from high shield/def or shield/abs to low defensive stats but high endurance. And of course we are all aware that high endurance relics actually have dps procs, and the tanking relics have mastery on them.

 

I'm not talking about defense rating. I'm talking about defensive stats. Sorry about the confusion. I'm saying use full shield absorb (since shield works better than defense rating in PVP), with high endurance mods and enhancements. It works, despite what some people on the forums will say. However, since 4.0 launched, running DPS gear on jugg tank is better than defensive gear, because of how much crushing blow and ravage hit for.

 

A tank's job in PVP is to bullet sponge for a healer or melee DPS (occasionally ranged, but melee typically take the most damage). A tank is supposed to "hold aggro and tank" the other team's DPS, so endurance is far more useful for guard than defensive stats.

Edited March 20, 2016 by TheCourier-

[Altheran]

Friend, I AM one of those "full defense" tanks since day1 of reaching max level which was 5 years ago. Some people bring up 4.0 changes, but frankly speaking the way tanking stats were set up, it was garbage since day 1 of launch. All throughout 1.0~1.6 the first 'generation' of SWTOR PvP greats and numbers-analyzers have already been pointing out these problems since then.

 

[...]

 

Someone had to put the dots on the "I"s. Thank you.

 

I'm also one of the day one defensive tanks. However, unlike you, I had not the patience to keep playing tank in their broken state. I switched to DPS (I don't want any stinkin' skank)

At the time when the game was still young, and when I believed they could still fix it, I used to put a catch phrase in my signature. It was : No tanks, no thanks.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Altheran