Are ops/raids outdated?

[gabigool]

But rescaling the level is hurting casual players and not gonna impress the raiders.

 

This.

[Pietrastor]

Raids need to evolve with times. Lobby/drop-in drop-out concept won in multiplayer gaming long time ago for a reason.

[IanArgent]

Raids need to evolve with times. Lobby/drop-in drop-out concept won in multiplayer gaming long time ago for a reason.

 

I wish that BW had put sine actual thought into making the flashpoints all "tactical." Then I'd have sine confidence that they chicks do the same thing for ops. Because 3xDPS + one moderately influenced companion should not be a better play experience than 4xDPS in the Tython FP (wiped 3 times on the first boss with 4, ran rampant with 3+1). And, I don't have time to commit to a regular raid schedule, but I can intermittently pug sometimes. Except ov can't actually put an Op, because the time I have, it takes too long to assemble a team

[Slowpokeking]

The ops system really needs change.

[gabigool]

The ops system really needs change.

 

Yes. It needs to change back closer to what it once was.

 

The entire endgame needs to be revamped. In an effort to make life easier for casuals, endgame has been gutted. Used to be you'd need to run a few flashpoints for gear. Then a few heroics. You had some weeklies that would give you a modest amount of commendations. You were eased into it and by the time you stepped foot in an operation you knew what you were doing.

 

But now, it's like the developers forgot that the old system did more than kill time - it actually taught people how to play.

 

I joined a TFB story mode pug last night, in which I believe 5 members were in one guild.

 

WH no one picked up the JM

DG the first person that got doom never moved and died from it

Op9 was scary - I think we failed blue four times.

Finally at Kephess one of the tanks asked if there was anything he needed to know - of course on the one boss with zero mechanics.

I had to quit at Terror. Tentacles not being tanked, etc. We get to phase 2 and the tank is tanking Terror on a platform with a tentacle on it. And there are DPS standing on it anyway.

 

Listen, I get people need to learn. But ALL of these people are in full 220/224 6 piece set bonuses. Shouldn't they have learned by now?

 

Something's wrong here.

 

I can understand perhaps a disdain for long gearing cycles like in days gone by but it's swung way too far the other way. There is no incentive to learn mechanics, rotations etc.

 

IMO the next major content drop needs to have a new level cap and a realistic, functional progression path. Leave all the existing crap as -5 levels so the NM is accessible to many more people than it is now. Go back to 3-tiers of difficulty and make it so people actually cant benefit without putting even a tiny amount of effort it.

 

In the long run it breeds a healthier endgame experience. The current endgame state in this game is terrifying.

[robertthebard]

Yes. It needs to change back closer to what it once was.

 

The entire endgame needs to be revamped. In an effort to make life easier for casuals, endgame has been gutted. Used to be you'd need to run a few flashpoints for gear. Then a few heroics. You had some weeklies that would give you a modest amount of commendations. You were eased into it and by the time you stepped foot in an operation you knew what you were doing.

 

But now, it's like the developers forgot that the old system did more than kill time - it actually taught people how to play.

 

I joined a TFB story mode pug last night, in which I believe 5 members were in one guild.

 

WH no one picked up the JM

DG the first person that got doom never moved and died from it

Op9 was scary - I think we failed blue four times.

Finally at Kephess one of the tanks asked if there was anything he needed to know - of course on the one boss with zero mechanics.

I had to quit at Terror. Tentacles not being tanked, etc. We get to phase 2 and the tank is tanking Terror on a platform with a tentacle on it. And there are DPS standing on it anyway.

 

Listen, I get people need to learn. But ALL of these people are in full 220/224 6 piece set bonuses. Shouldn't they have learned by now?

 

Something's wrong here.

 

I can understand perhaps a disdain for long gearing cycles like in days gone by but it's swung way too far the other way. There is no incentive to learn mechanics, rotations etc.

 

IMO the next major content drop needs to have a new level cap and a realistic, functional progression path. Leave all the existing crap as -5 levels so the NM is accessible to many more people than it is now. Go back to 3-tiers of difficulty and make it so people actually cant benefit without putting even a tiny amount of effort it.

 

In the long run it breeds a healthier endgame experience. The current endgame state in this game is terrifying.

 

What's amazing is that you believe the old way actually accomplished what you claim. I have seen a full geared DPS Sage, crying about other people's gear, be the first one to die in HM TBC, because they didn't move out of the laser. They then proceeded to blame all the "filthy casuals that don't have the right gear" for their error. So excuse me if I take this idea that people were better under the old system with a grain of salt. The changes didn't make people that didn't know what they were doing then any better just because they geared up back then. The changes didn't benefit the "casuals" any more than it did back then. All it really did was throw everyone in one pool, and frankly, that's really not all that new either.

[Gaspodia]

We regularly do guild runs (at least 2 SM per week) and very rarely include pugs. That's not because we don't like pugs, but rather because we have enough people in our (smallish) guild who want to join in. This has been the case since before 4.0 came out and I haven't noticed numbers/enthusiasm waning at all. We explain tactics at the start of each fight (quick reminder version for casuals, longer version for newbies).

 

We are a mixture of experienced, geared, casual, etc and for us, I don't think the ops are outdated and still have a significant part to play in our guild's activities. We also have a progression group and although we completed a lot of the HM/NM stuff before 4.0, we are enjoying working our way through HMs again. Ignoring EV/KP (faceroll ), there are plenty of ops to keep us enthused.

 

I know every guild/raid group is going to have different experiences though and a raid group that cleared everything shortly after it came out won't feel the way we do about the ops we have now, but I really don't think *any* MMO can cater for groups that clear content faster than it can be developed. That's not me saying the guys who cleared it are in the wrong at all, it's just that I would expect speedy clearers to be working in several MMOs and cycling through them as new content is released. Maybe there is a market out there for a raid-only MMO that *could* cater for them... dunno.

 

Maybe our guild is not typical, but most of our regulars complain about not having enough time to do all the stuff they want to do rather than having nothing to do. We do have quite a few floating members, who drift in and out of the game; returning for new content only. The overall membership level has been static or climbing modestly since 3.0.

 

So no, I don't think the ops are outdated

[Vhaegrant]

I quit playing OPs before SWTOR launched.

Exposure to them in other MMOs meant I'd already encountered a lot of the pitfalls and had no desire to spend my time going through them all again for SWTOR.

 

It's a shame, because the traditional framework of a theme-park MMO pushed a player through the levelling content as quickly as possible to hit the end game content and start gear progression. Next time an expansion comes around with a level cap increase and new gear tiers the treadmill starts again.

 

Not to mention if you have no intention of stepping onto that gear progression you can equip your character with solo play.

[Slowpokeking]

Yes. It needs to change back closer to what it once was.

 

The entire endgame needs to be revamped. In an effort to make life easier for casuals, endgame has been gutted. Used to be you'd need to run a few flashpoints for gear. Then a few heroics. You had some weeklies that would give you a modest amount of commendations. You were eased into it and by the time you stepped foot in an operation you knew what you were doing.

 

But now, it's like the developers forgot that the old system did more than kill time - it actually taught people how to play.

 

I joined a TFB story mode pug last night, in which I believe 5 members were in one guild.

 

WH no one picked up the JM

DG the first person that got doom never moved and died from it

Op9 was scary - I think we failed blue four times.

Finally at Kephess one of the tanks asked if there was anything he needed to know - of course on the one boss with zero mechanics.

I had to quit at Terror. Tentacles not being tanked, etc. We get to phase 2 and the tank is tanking Terror on a platform with a tentacle on it. And there are DPS standing on it anyway.

 

Listen, I get people need to learn. But ALL of these people are in full 220/224 6 piece set bonuses. Shouldn't they have learned by now?

 

Something's wrong here.

 

I can understand perhaps a disdain for long gearing cycles like in days gone by but it's swung way too far the other way. There is no incentive to learn mechanics, rotations etc.

 

IMO the next major content drop needs to have a new level cap and a realistic, functional progression path. Leave all the existing crap as -5 levels so the NM is accessible to many more people than it is now. Go back to 3-tiers of difficulty and make it so people actually cant benefit without putting even a tiny amount of effort it.

 

In the long run it breeds a healthier endgame experience. The current endgame state in this game is terrifying.

 

But why must a 4 years old fossil ops still ask people to spend much effort on?

[Khevar]

What's amazing is that you believe the old way actually accomplished what you claim.

The old way (e.g. 1.3-1.8 era) did accomplish a gradient introduction of end-game content.

 

Someone would hit level 50 and get a free set of Tionese, and start running HM Flashpoints. The last boss of each HM FP would drop a Columi token (with set bonus attached to the shell). After running some HM FPs to get one's feet wet, you could start running SM ops, where each boss dropped a Columi token.

 

Leading one into the easier HM Ops (EV/KP) dropped Rakata tokens. And then to the harder HM Ops (EC/TfB) which dropped Dread Guard tokens.

 

This may not be the best approach (I've seen many criticisms of it), but it did provide a gradient scale of getting into end-game content.

[robertthebard]

The old way (e.g. 1.3-1.8 era) did accomplish a gradient introduction of end-game content.

 

Someone would hit level 50 and get a free set of Tionese, and start running HM Flashpoints. The last boss of each HM FP would drop a Columi token (with set bonus attached to the shell). After running some HM FPs to get one's feet wet, you could start running SM ops, where each boss dropped a Columi token.

 

Leading one into the easier HM Ops (EV/KP) dropped Rakata tokens. And then to the harder HM Ops (EC/TfB) which dropped Dread Guard tokens.

 

This may not be the best approach (I've seen many criticisms of it), but it did provide a gradient scale of getting into end-game content.

 

...and, when you're done with all that, you still get people like I mentioned in the rest of the post that you elected to snip out, that still can't play, despite having all the right gear. Leaving the statement that you did leave in glaringly true. What it should have accomplished and what it did do aren't the same thing, after all. Some people did learn to play. Hell, Tionese gear was already out when I got here, but I've never had my tanking called into question. Some of us didn't need all that to learn our classes, others wouldn't learn it if you could light up what buttons to press when on their keyboards.

[TX_Angel]

The entire endgame needs to be revamped. In an effort to make life easier for casuals, endgame has been gutted. Used to be you'd need to run a few flashpoints for gear. Then a few heroics. You had some weeklies that would give you a modest amount of commendations. You were eased into it and by the time you stepped foot in an operation you knew what you were doing.

 

^ Quoted for truth... the number of people showing up to end game content these days who have NO idea what they are doing, is sad.

 

I've been playing since three weeks post launch, the change is obvious to me. 2.x was the sweet time, 3.x wasn't too bad, but 4.x has been horrible.

 

Listen, I get people need to learn. But ALL of these people are in full 220/224 6 piece set bonuses. Shouldn't they have learned by now?

 

Something's wrong here.

 

Most of the game no longer requires that you learn anything. Leveling has become stupid easy, companions do all the work. Taticals are a joke, they teach nothing to those who need it. HM FP and ops are the only thing that requires any skill, but the jump from "easy street" to "requires skill" is straight up.

 

In the long run it breeds a healthier endgame experience. The current endgame state in this game is terrifying.

 

Yea, but sadly I don't think the old ways are coming back.

[Slowpokeking]

^ Quoted for truth... the number of people showing up to end game content these days who have NO idea what they are doing, is sad.

 

I've been playing since three weeks post launch, the change is obvious to me. 2.x was the sweet time, 3.x wasn't too bad, but 4.x has been horrible.

 

 

 

Most of the game no longer requires that you learn anything. Leveling has become stupid easy, companions do all the work. Taticals are a joke, they teach nothing to those who need it. HM FP and ops are the only thing that requires any skill, but the jump from "easy street" to "requires skill" is straight up.

 

 

 

Yea, but sadly I don't think the old ways are coming back.

 

Why should people still spend much effort on so old content?

[peter_plankskull]

Why should people still spend much effort on so old content?

 

Because that "old content" is the only relevant content that requires half a brain in this game.

[Max_Killjoy]

Why should people still spend much effort on so old content?

 

Why shouldn't they?

 

If it's something they actually enjoyed doing, and they mastered it, then why wouldn't they go back and do it from time to time for fun?

 

Why not have the various levels of difficulty for each Ops set up so that people who want to play through to see the story content that's otherwise gated off can do it with somewhat simpler mechanics and fights that require one to being genuinely trying, but don't hinge on razer-perfect rotations and all-BiS gear? And at the same time, people who want a real "nightmare mode" experience can go get their groove on in that same content, complete with "perfection or fail" challenges.

 

What's sometimes said outright, and sometimes written between the lines, by quite a few vocal "Ops players", is they're not really enjoying the actual Ops, it's quite literally the gear-grind-gear-progress-etc hamster-wheel of getting rewards that let you do the next content for more rewards and so on, that they're hooked on, and if they're just doing "old Ops", then they don't get their fix. (And I'm sorry if that sounds more judgemental than I want it to, but it's very hard to talk around it without just saying it -- I don't mean it to be inflammatory.)

Edited March 14, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[TX_Angel]

Why should people still spend much effort on so old content?

 

Prior poster was correct, but I'll add to that...

 

If I wanted a boring game, I would play something else. I no longer run tacticals, at all. I haven't run one in months. They are beyond stupid boring. I don't run heroics either, also stupid boring. They require zero skill (exception of perhaps 2 or 3 of them on Makeb/Voss).

 

HM FP and ops are the only thing left to do, besides GSF/PvP.

[Slowpokeking]

Because that "old content" is the only relevant content that requires half a brain in this game.

But why?

 

This is 3-4 years old stuff, every raid content has a lifespan: Hard challenge for elite-Doable by many guilds-Farmable by guilds and elites-Doable by pugs-Faceroll with the level, experience and gear increase. What SWTOR did was to bound these old ops as "challenge" which pissed off both sides. Raiders didn't want to run these all over again for 3-4 years and casual players want some easy enjoyable tale, get some decor/mount/achievement which they couldn't get long ago.

[Slowpokeking]

Why shouldn't they?

 

If it's something they actually enjoyed doing, and they mastered it, then why wouldn't they go back and do it from time to time for fun?

 

Why not have the various levels of difficulty for each Ops set up so that people who want to play through to see the story content that's otherwise gated off can do it with somewhat simpler mechanics and fights that require one to being genuinely trying, but don't hinge on razer-perfect rotations and all-BiS gear?

 

What's sometimes said outright, and sometimes written between the lines, by quite a few vocal "Ops players", is they're not really enjoying the actual Ops, it's quite literally the gear-grind-gear-progress-etc hamster-wheel of getting rewards that let you do the next content for more rewards and so on, that they're hooked on, and if they're just doing "old Ops", then they don't get their fix. (And I'm sorry if that sounds more judgemental than I want it to, but it's very hard to talk around it without just saying it -- I don't mean it to be inflammatory.)

 

Because it's very very old. It's like asking people to focus their effort on Scholomance, Strathlome or Molten Core in WotLK.

 

Why shouldn't these old ops become pug's fun(like the 50 ones in SoR) rather than the "challenge" of these raiders, who already ran over it for 100+ times over the years?

[Slowpokeking]

Prior poster was correct, but I'll add to that...

 

If I wanted a boring game, I would play something else. I no longer run tacticals, at all. I haven't run one in months. They are beyond stupid boring. I don't run heroics either, also stupid boring. They require zero skill (exception of perhaps 2 or 3 of them on Makeb/Voss).

 

HM FP and ops are the only thing left to do, besides GSF/PvP.

 

How is it not boring to run the same ops for bloody 2-4 years? I'm only into raid for a few months last year and it was already very boring for me to run them again with much effort and "enjoy" the waiting/drama/dc. To me, run over some old ops with pugs or friends to get stuff which I couldn't get is super fun compare to the rescaled fossil ops.

[Max_Killjoy]

Because it's very very old. It's like asking people to focus their effort on Scholomance, Strathlome or Molten Core in WotLK.

 

Why shouldn't these old ops become pug's fun(like the 50 ones in SoR) rather than the "challenge" of these raiders, who already ran over it for 100+ times over the years?

 

AGAIN, that's why you need to have different difficulty levels for the same Ops or raids.

 

 

How is it not boring to run the same ops for bloody 2-4 years? I'm only into raid for a few months last year and it was already very boring for me to run them again with much effort and "enjoy" the waiting/drama/dc. To me, run over some old ops with pugs or friends to get stuff which I couldn't get is super fun compare to the rescaled fossil ops.

 

AGAIN, with a "mature" MMO, it's not as if people would be doing THE SAME Ops EVERY night or every week for 4 straight years. There should be maybe even dozens of Ops, that can be rotated through, gone back to for fun, etc.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Slowpokeking]

AGAIN, that's why you need to have different difficulty levels for the same Ops or raids.

 

It doesn't solve the problem. If I'm a real raider I would have quit this game long ago because there is no new ops and new challenge. As a casual player I don't want to spend that much effort on both the ops and the personal drama for such old content.

 

AGAIN, with a "mature" MMO, it's not as if people would be doing THE SAME Ops EVERY night or every week for 4 straight years. There should be maybe even dozens of Ops, that can be rotated through, gone back to for fun, etc.

 

No, all of these ops have been done by me for a couple of times. I don't find it's fun to run them with such effort. We. Need. New. Ops. and. Put. These. Old. Ones. to. Rest(pugs' fun).

Edited March 14, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[robertthebard]

It doesn't solve the problem. If I'm a real raider I would have quit this game long ago because there is no new ops and new challenge. As a casual player I don't want to spend that much effort on both the ops and the personal drama for such old content.

 

 

 

No, all of these ops have been done by me for a couple of times. I don't find it's fun to run them with such effort. We. Need. New. Ops. and. Put. These. Old. Ones. to. Rest(pugs' fun).

 

All of the ops can now drop the same things, so definitely no. If you want the rewards, put forth the effort. If you don't want to put forth the effort, then you don't need the rewards either.

[Tsillah]

How is it not boring to run the same ops for bloody 2-4 years? I'm only into raid for a few months last year and it was already very boring for me to run them again with much effort and "enjoy" the waiting/drama/dc. To me, run over some old ops with pugs or friends to get stuff which I couldn't get is super fun compare to the rescaled fossil ops.

 

It's a simple thing. If older ops should be come easy, there should not be updated rewards for it either. Initially that happened and people basically stopped playing them. It wasn't until they gave updated rewards in the form of commendations that people played them again. But it's inherently wrong to give current endgame rewards for old ops that you can steam roll.

 

So upgrading the ops gives them the possibility to give better rewards, therefore keeping them relevant. And don't forget, just because these ops are old for some of us, I am pretty sure a lot of players are new and for them it's not old content.

 

The problem is not with upgrading the old ops so there is more content for newer players, but the simple point that there has been very little new content added for endgame in a while. They are separate issues however. I wish EV HM was actually harder than it is now myself, but it still wouldn't be new content.

[Max_Killjoy]

It doesn't solve the problem. If I'm a real raider I would have quit this game long ago because there is no new ops and new challenge. As a casual player I don't want to spend that much effort on both the ops and the personal drama for such old content.

 

 

 

No, all of these ops have been done by me for a couple of times. I don't find it's fun to run them with such effort. We. Need. New. Ops. and. Put. These. Old. Ones. to. Rest(pugs' fun).

 

 

If you're a junky for the new new new, and can't entertain yourself with something you've done more than a few times already, then that's your problem. No MMO is going to continuously put out new raids/ops every month in perpetuity, and the older raids/ops aren't be ash-canned for the sake of your personal bugbears.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Slowpokeking]

All of the ops can now drop the same things, so definitely no. If you want the rewards, put forth the effort. If you don't want to put forth the effort, then you don't need the rewards either.

 

But it's not how a raid content work out. It should have its peak as a challenge but not always stay there. I like this game a lot but I don't see how is it fun to run the same old thing again for the gear, this is why I only resub everytime there is new story and get some new decor for my house.