Are ops/raids outdated?

[Slowpokeking]

With content being old most raiders have left. The trinity system is not the culprit. Wait times to fill spots is not a meaningful piece of evidence to suggest a switch. Removing the trinity system is not a solution that would bring you what you want. It's possible wait times still remain due to insufficient player skill.

 

When content was new finding groups was cake.

It is, because gamers today don't want to waste so much time on such effort on others, they want "let's rock out whenever we want" game. This is why MMO is declining, even WOW.

 

I'm not saying remove the trinity system is the only thing we need, just a way to reduce the pain, or make every class be able to do all three roles with easy gear(remove specific stats for tank gears).

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Unperson]

But most of the players don't even like raid anymore. It doesn't matter how good I do with my DPS, if we miss a healer of tank we are gonna wait for a while and if they suck we wipe. If they dc/ragequit/take a long break we will have to stop to wait or grab a new one, which is painful, painful to endure today.

 

Ah, yes, cooperation required to succeed. Such an outdated design concept. Ops aren't "ME ME ME" and "NOW NOW NOW"-focused enough for "modern gamers" nowadays, is what you're saying?

 

I guess I'm happy I'm not a "modern gamer" or a "true gamer" or whatever. Just a guy who plays games from time to time.

 

Also: if something you do in your leisure time is "painful, painful to endure", maybe consider stop doing it?

[Firolas]

It is, because gamers today don't want to waste so much time on such effort on others, they want "let's rock out whenever we want" game. This is why MMO is declining, even WOW.

 

I'm not saying remove the trinity system is the only thing we need, just a way to reduce the pain, or make every class be able to do all three roles with easy gear(remove specific stats for tank gears).

 

Who are these 'gamers of today' you speak of?

Stop speaking out like your the elected voice of the gaming community.

Did we vote and I miss the memo?

 

Operations are hurting because gaming companies have discovered that focus on in game cash shops makes more money than actually providing PVE content. (that includes PVP content also)

Join a PVE guild and there's little effort in putting a group together, hell you can make some great new friends.

 

Every day/week there's people complaining on here because the 'modern gamer' isn't happy.

The 'modern gamer' is people that like story only / PVE Operations / PVP / RP and believe it or not they like to have things to grind for not handed to them on a plate.

 

See a good MMORPG would cater for all.

Every 12 to 18 months bring out an expansion with new Story/Operation/PVP warzone and some mini things to occupy time with.

SWTOR went with Story only and upset alot of people who either barely log in or just left.

Blame EA or Bioware but the current state of the game is not a good one and It isn't not because the 'modern gamer' can't be arsed making operation teams.

[kirorx]

I used to raid quit a bit but the last couple years I have not been too into it.

 

Honestly I cant be raiding at peak raid times a few straight hours while I got the old wife and kids wondering around lol

[Stabalicious]

I pretty much quit playing MMO operations/raid content well before SWTOR.

 

Too much drama, too repetitive and boring for me. It was fun for a few years in WoW, but by the time I got to Rift.. I had taken a pass on Operations/raids. Maybe it was the WoW approach that burned me out, or maybe I just finally realized what a silly carrot dangling MMO methodology they were.

 

And I know I am not the only MMO veteran that has moved on from Ops/Raids either.

 

Every is entitled to an opinion but I must say, I am not sure I agree with the words that are coming out of your mouth Jackie. When you have a group of friends or have the patience for it, MMO style play ops/raids are fun. I will admit that old content seems like they just simply increased difficulty to match our level and that's it. It wasn't tweaked or anything or even given new gear.

An MMO veteran will always enjoy an mmo if the conditions are right but like before we must put in some work to help meet those conditions. Now can someone get burnt out like you mentioned? yes ofcourse they can but ops and raids will always be an amazing thing. In my opinion, this development team just doesn't have the time, resources or big enough team to create a compelling raid and or raid encounter to keep our interests anymore. I just don't think they view this game as an investment anymore. Maybe more of a let's see how long we can keep making as much money as we can kind of game now.

[Slowpokeking]

Ah, yes, cooperation required to succeed. Such an outdated design concept. Ops aren't "ME ME ME" and "NOW NOW NOW"-focused enough for "modern gamers" nowadays, is what you're saying?

 

I guess I'm happy I'm not a "modern gamer" or a "true gamer" or whatever. Just a guy who plays games from time to time.

 

Also: if something you do in your leisure time is "painful, painful to endure", maybe consider stop doing it?

 

Yes, this is why MOB is beating MMO badly these days.

[Slowpokeking]

Who are these 'gamers of today' you speak of?

Stop speaking out like your the elected voice of the gaming community.

Did we vote and I miss the memo?

 

Operations are hurting because gaming companies have discovered that focus on in game cash shops makes more money than actually providing PVE content. (that includes PVP content also)

Join a PVE guild and there's little effort in putting a group together, hell you can make some great new friends.

 

Every day/week there's people complaining on here because the 'modern gamer' isn't happy.

The 'modern gamer' is people that like story only / PVE Operations / PVP / RP and believe it or not they like to have things to grind for not handed to them on a plate.

 

See a good MMORPG would cater for all.

Every 12 to 18 months bring out an expansion with new Story/Operation/PVP warzone and some mini things to occupy time with.

SWTOR went with Story only and upset alot of people who either barely log in or just left.

Blame EA or Bioware but the current state of the game is not a good one and It isn't not because the 'modern gamer' can't be arsed making operation teams.

Why must I join a PVE guild? If you do, you might have to make schedule for a game, to go online on specific time, which is what modern gamers hate.

 

Even the best MMO, WOW(they keep update and launch out major xpc) is keep losing players badly today because of this. People are tired of themed park MMO, they don't want to waste so much effort on people. They want games which you can rock out whenever they want so MOB became so popular. SWTOR was a great MMO, it made a few mistakes but it was still better than most of the others. It went F2P because people are getting tired of MMO and it didn't have a strong player base WOW had built throughout the years.

[Celise]

Sorry I once enjoyed most of the ops, but right now it just feels quite boring to gather 8 ppl to do these old ones. Especially when you need to wait for certain classes(tank mostly) and stop when some others took a break/left it. Modern gamers prefer quicker content that doesn't require much time to gather a group. Sure Bioware didn't release new ops, but I think current ops style also require some work. Like removing the tank-dps-heal trio from all the ops or make all classes be able to do all three roles and reduce the size of ops group.

 

i often entertain the thougth that if the servers do come down that bioware have a plan in place that would adjust all the group content to solo play, including raids, with a small grind for good equipment through rng token drops. and these former ops get combined into the story lines. the multiplayer aspect is completely pulled out of the game and it is adjusted accordingly for single player action.

 

game is mostly single player anyway, the only multiplayer is through host machines on a dedicated lobby, that way the only thing bioware have to be concerned with is keeping the warzone server active, small and out the way without the huge price tag.

 

so you can play the entire SWTOR game from single player if you want, and then head to a main menu that presents multiplayer warzones.

 

anyway, enough droning on. as for the ops being outdated, it is one of the more challenging aspects in the game, if it were really outdated, everyone would be flying through NiM mode getting full 224 with 7 piece sets without any trouble at all.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Celise

[Soluss]

Why must I join a PVE guild? If you do, you might have to make schedule for a game, to go online on specific time, which is what modern gamers hate.

 

Even the best MMO, WOW(they keep update and launch out major xpc) is keep losing players badly today because of this. People are tired of themed park MMO, they don't want to waste so much effort on people. They want games which you can rock out whenever they want so MOB became so popular. SWTOR was a great MMO, it made a few mistakes but it was still better than most of the others. It went F2P because people are getting tired of MMO and it didn't have a strong player base WOW had built throughout the years.

 

It went F2P for a lot of reasons. Not because people are tired of MMO. A lot of the reason is because people were tired of not having new content. With the ease of how everything is today in "modern MMO" content is burned through quickly and Devs can't keep up the pace of demand.

 

I pop in and out of ToR quite a bit. I like the story but if that is all they are going to do it will be a long time before I pop back in again. I just cancelled my sub again because I don't pay to play by myself. Playing with my friends is what makes it fun for me. Since all the content is old it really doesnt appeal to any of my friends nor myself anymore.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Soluss

[Shwarzchild]

Why must I join a PVE guild? If you do, you might have to make schedule for a game, to go online on specific time, which is what modern gamers hate.

 

Even the best MMO, WOW(they keep update and launch out major xpc) is keep losing players badly today because of this. People are tired of themed park MMO, they don't want to waste so much effort on people. They want games which you can rock out whenever they want so MOB became so popular. SWTOR was a great MMO, it made a few mistakes but it was still better than most of the others. It went F2P because people are getting tired of MMO and it didn't have a strong player base WOW had built throughout the years.

 

there are plenty of guilds that have totally differing schedules. Regardless, the point of joining a pve focused guild is to enter into a population of similar minded players to make it easier to get into and enjoy the content you are looking to enjoy.

 

There are guilds that have no structure, or schedules to speak of. there are those that are. You just have to find your correct "home".

 

Again, it's not bioware's problem. They were charged wtih offering you options. They've delivered that. You need to find your correct place instead of create an army of strawmen.

 

Secondarily: the raiding community has become more consolidated than in previous cycles. Instead of general chat, you 'll find we avoid general chat, and we have created our own private server channels for grouping. So we have our guilds, and we have our friends, and we connect to one another in ways that we don't really open to the general public of the game for myriad reasons. Easy way to get into the community of raiders again is to again join a guild.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[felproof]

I've raided in both WoW and LotRO, and what I've seen as a semi hardcore raider at the time is if not enough end game content is delivered, raiders leave. You can do the same raids only so many times before you are bored to tears.

 

Are they becoming an outdated part of MMOs? Maybe, maybe not. Not enough new open world content, players leave. Not enough new pvp maps, players leave. It's vicious cycle. Also having a company string out what they have for months/years at a time (looking at you Blizzard) players leave.

 

As the available pool to recruit/pug from dwindles, it gives an impression of no one wanting to do them, but in the end you can really only blame the developers for driving away customers. I dont think IMO is has anything to do with players being anti-social or wanting epics NOW without working for them (although there are some out there that would love this) it's just that most have done current end game content ad nauseam. This leaves players like myself who have come from other games out in the cold trying to see what is new for us.

 

I think I've strayed off the topic enough, so I'll step out now.

[Max_Killjoy]

Ops/Raids are not outdated -- group content in general is not outdated.

 

There are things deeply associated with "big" group content by many players, that probably need a deep examination.

 

* The great hamster-wheel of gear -- the idea that everything is about getting ready for the next thing.

 

* Exclusivity as a driver of participation -- the idea that people will only play Ops/Raids for rewards of special stuff, rather than out of simple enjoyment

 

* Snobby elitism -- the "LF4M for _______, must have X gear and be able to run entire thing blindfolded" or "only NiM matters, everything else is for kiddies" attitude that some players display... the general impatience and unwillingness to stop for 10 seconds for explanations or recovery of resource / cooldown

 

Good content should be its own reward.

 

If you want more people to do Ops/Raids and do them well, then you have to welcome people in and show them howl; if everyone expects someone else to do the "training", then no one will, and there's no way to really learn "big" group content by playing solo.

[Slowpokeking]

It went F2P for a lot of reasons. Not because people are tired of MMO. A lot of the reason is because people were tired of not having new content. With the ease of how everything is today in "modern MMO" content is burned through quickly and Devs can't keep up the pace of demand.

 

I pop in and out of ToR quite a bit. I like the story but if that is all they are going to do it will be a long time before I pop back in again. I just cancelled my sub again because I don't pay to play by myself. Playing with my friends is what makes it fun for me. Since all the content is old it really doesnt appeal to any of my friends nor myself anymore.

 

But the game went F2P in the 1.0 cycle, which the update was quite reasonable.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

there are plenty of guilds that have totally differing schedules. Regardless, the point of joining a pve focused guild is to enter into a population of similar minded players to make it easier to get into and enjoy the content you are looking to enjoy.

 

There are guilds that have no structure, or schedules to speak of. there are those that are. You just have to find your correct "home".

 

Again, it's not bioware's problem. They were charged wtih offering you options. They've delivered that. You need to find your correct place instead of create an army of strawmen.

Why should people set schedule for a game now? As for other guild, you might find them not helpful if you want to get a raid group, or not enough to form a group so you still need to wait and call.

[Slowpokeking]

Ops/Raids are not outdated -- group content in general is not outdated.

 

There are things deeply associated with "big" group content by many players, that probably need a deep examination.

 

* The great hamster-wheel of gear -- the idea that everything is about getting ready for the next thing.

 

* Exclusivity as a driver of participation -- the idea that people will only play Ops/Raids for rewards of special stuff, rather than out of simple enjoyment

 

* Snobby elitism -- the "LF4M for _______, must have X gear and be able to run entire thing blindfolded" or "only NiM matters, everything else is for kiddies" attitude that some players display... the general impatience and unwillingness to stop for 10 seconds for explanations or recovery of resource / cooldown

 

Good content should be its own reward.

 

If you want more people to do Ops/Raids and do them well, then you have to welcome people in and show them howl; if everyone expects someone else to do the "training", then no one will, and there's no way to really learn "big" group content by playing solo.

 

I never showed much of elitism, just asking for tank/healer and it still take a long while sometimes. I understand NIM mode ask for achievement though.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Celise]

i was in a guild until early this year when they started using dps parsers, i made up an excuse and left them, although they are angry at me for leaving, their reaction wasn't my concern anyway. they were running regular sm and hm mode ops usually every 7pm EST, usually in groups of friends they only trusted, ofcouse the person running the guilld didn't care much i noticed.

 

i was glad to leave the guild though, they were okay nothing wrong with them, just that when they started using parsers, i realized it wasn't about OPS fun anymore, it was about dps numbers. to be fair though, some of the other guildmates at the time did say over TS that they were bored of some of the OPS they were doing, for example the fight with

kephess the undying

the mechanic to this one is a bore to them for the first half of the fight.

 

sure OPS could do with an adjustment to a few of the boss rounds, but the overal raid content is pretty good even if i have burned out on them, but that was my problem.

[Slowpokeking]

I've raided in both WoW and LotRO, and what I've seen as a semi hardcore raider at the time is if not enough end game content is delivered, raiders leave. You can do the same raids only so many times before you are bored to tears.

 

Are they becoming an outdated part of MMOs? Maybe, maybe not. Not enough new open world content, players leave. Not enough new pvp maps, players leave. It's vicious cycle. Also having a company string out what they have for months/years at a time (looking at you Blizzard) players leave.

 

As the available pool to recruit/pug from dwindles, it gives an impression of no one wanting to do them, but in the end you can really only blame the developers for driving away customers. I dont think IMO is has anything to do with players being anti-social or wanting epics NOW without working for them (although there are some out there that would love this) it's just that most have done current end game content ad nauseam. This leaves players like myself who have come from other games out in the cold trying to see what is new for us.

 

I think I've strayed off the topic enough, so I'll step out now.

 

But this game's new content got choked out and turned F2P because it lost many players in the 1.0 cycle. Which means it's not "people left because there is no new content", but "people left so it went F2P and got reduced content".

[Yorioko]

First of all, WHAT is your motive for doing OPS?

If it is the highest tier rewards you want and only that, then what does it matter how you group up, as long as you complete the OPS and thus get the loot.

 

I in general is not a very raid fixated player, I prefer to sandbox as much as I can, and often just run around random.

 

Yes GUILDS, it has been stated in many posts here and for very good reasons.

 

You seek out the guild that befits YOU, and quitting the "wrong" guild is as easy as saying your goodbyes and typing /gquit.

 

Most OPS you will PUG into you will ntoice in most cases you have several OPS members from same guild.

Again find the guild that suits you.

 

In my guild we have a mirror guild on the oposide side ( meaning one for rep and mirror for imp) same memebers.

We have i day a week dedicated to OPS on each side, BUT we also have no presure internally to do them.

We ask internally if anyone wants, if we are enough we go as a guild, if not the ones that want pug up.

 

Again it all comes down to wht YOU want.

If you have random playing hours on here, then a guild with some level of commitment and SET raid times ay not be the guild for you, so look around, ask when you see guilds recruiting.

 

Besides guilds give more xp, letting you level faster.

 

Another very good thing about going in a guild raid is that you cn control loot. You say what ever loot you NEED and the ops leaded distributes.

This way everyone will get the top tier items in the end ( as well all the other rewards).

 

As for the fun sandbox, play aand rp as you hack your way through a mission, I have doe that, and that too I personally prefer in a guild, knowing I am with likeminded persons that will tolerate that.

 

as for the modern gamer...............he is either an idiot or he don't exisit......I believe the latter.

[Slowpokeking]

i was in a guild until early this year when they started using dps parsers, i made up an excuse and left them, although they are angry at me for leaving, their reaction wasn't my concern anyway. they were running regular sm and hm mode ops usually every 7pm EST, usually in groups of friends they only trusted, ofcouse the person running the guilld didn't care much i noticed.

 

i was glad to leave the guild though, they were okay nothing wrong with them, just that when they started using parsers, i realized it wasn't about OPS fun anymore, it was about dps numbers. to be fair though, some of the other guildmates at the time did say over TS that they were bored of some of the OPS they were doing, for example the fight with

kephess the undying

the mechanic to this one is a bore to them for the first half of the fight.

 

sure OPS could do with an adjustment to a few of the boss rounds, but the overal raid content is pretty good even if i have burned out on them, but that was my problem.

 

I think Bioware made a mistake by rescale the levels. HC raiders don't like old content and casual players can't do them easily anymore like they did in the 3.0 cycle.

 

It would be better to keep the level and make some achievement system for people to get.

[Shwarzchild]

Why should people set schedule for a game now? As for other guild, you might find them not helpful if you want to get a raid group, or not enough to form a group so you still need to wait and call.

 

Some guilds require a certain level of activity. Some don't. Basically you can find every excuse for not joining a guild. But, the fact of the matter is that if you want to enjoy the niche part of the game that is successful raiding you need to do something other than sit on fleet , and speak in gen chat like that's the ultimate end all be all.

 

You won't have success that way because the majority of the raiding community avoids general chat, has our own private server channels, and work in partnership with other guilds we connect with along the way. Very rarely will you get opportunities for fun runs by just waiting around un-guilded..

 

If you literally refuse to do anything but sit waiting for group finder, or stay un-guilded, you have an extremely small chance of getting yourself actually into the raiding community.

[Slowpokeking]

Some guilds require a certain level of activity. Some don't. Basically you can find every excuse for not joining a guild. But, the fact of the matter is that if you want to enjoy the niche part of the game that is successful raiding you need to do something other than sit on fleet , and speak in gen chat like that's the ultimate end all be all.

 

You won't have success that way because the majority of the raiding community avoids general chat, has our own private server channels, and work in partnership with other guilds we connect with along the way. Very rarely will you get opportunities for fun runs by just waiting around un-guilded..

 

If you literally refuse to do anything but sit waiting for group finder, or stay un-guilded, you have an extremely small chance of getting yourself actually into the raiding community.

 

But ops shouldn't be a niche part of the game, at least those VERY OLD ones. New ones should be niche to players, but 3-4 years old ones like EV KP EC and TFB should have been easily done by pugs without harsh class requirement or even 2-3 menable, this is how a MMO run.

 

It's not I don't want to do it, but many many people don't want to wast much effort on unrelated issue for a game. This is why MMO is keep dwindling and MOB is getting so popular.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Celise]

I think Bioware made a mistake by rescale the levels. HC raiders don't like old content and casual players can't do them easily anymore like they did in the 3.0 cycle.

 

It would be better to keep the level and make some achievement system for people to get.

 

on the contrary, adversity usually produces better players and better team work, you fail the first time, but it is a positive learning experience.

 

but you also have a point in that it shouldn't be on the level of trying to walk up a very steep slope, for example, ravagers:

master and blaster

, these two can be a bloody nightmare at times if you don't have a well coordinated team with people who know what they are doing. same can be stated of the

revanite captains

before

revan

in ToS.

 

however i do not want to see them getting much easier, but i also dont want to see these bosses being too hard to pass.

[Slowpokeking]

on the contrary, adversity usually produces better players and better team work, you fail the first time, but it is a positive learning experience.

 

but you also have a point in that it shouldn't be on the level of trying to walk up a very steep slope, for example, ravagers:

master and blaster

, these two can be a bloody nightmare at times if you don't have a well coordinated team with people who know what they are doing. same can be stated of the

revanite captains

before

revan

in ToS.

 

however i do not want to see them getting much easier, but i also dont want to see these bosses being too hard to pass.

But this is a game, people don't want to spend much effort on 3-4 years old content.

[Slowpokeking]

First of all, WHAT is your motive for doing OPS?

If it is the highest tier rewards you want and only that, then what does it matter how you group up, as long as you complete the OPS and thus get the loot.

 

I in general is not a very raid fixated player, I prefer to sandbox as much as I can, and often just run around random.

 

Yes GUILDS, it has been stated in many posts here and for very good reasons.

 

You seek out the guild that befits YOU, and quitting the "wrong" guild is as easy as saying your goodbyes and typing /gquit.

 

Most OPS you will PUG into you will ntoice in most cases you have several OPS members from same guild.

Again find the guild that suits you.

 

In my guild we have a mirror guild on the oposide side ( meaning one for rep and mirror for imp) same memebers.

We have i day a week dedicated to OPS on each side, BUT we also have no presure internally to do them.

We ask internally if anyone wants, if we are enough we go as a guild, if not the ones that want pug up.

 

Again it all comes down to wht YOU want.

If you have random playing hours on here, then a guild with some level of commitment and SET raid times ay not be the guild for you, so look around, ask when you see guilds recruiting.

 

Besides guilds give more xp, letting you level faster.

 

Another very good thing about going in a guild raid is that you cn control loot. You say what ever loot you NEED and the ops leaded distributes.

This way everyone will get the top tier items in the end ( as well all the other rewards).

 

As for the fun sandbox, play aand rp as you hack your way through a mission, I have doe that, and that too I personally prefer in a guild, knowing I am with likeminded persons that will tolerate that.

 

as for the modern gamer...............he is either an idiot or he don't exisit......I believe the latter.

 

I want to enjoy and get some money/token/decor/mount if possible.

[Max_Killjoy]

But this is a game, people don't want to spend much effort on 3-4 years old content.

 

That would only seem to be a problem if someone is ONLY here to do new, new, new Ops.

 

There's SO much going on in this game that you could rotate between mains and alts, story and endgame, and the various ops, and not get bored -- IF one is doing the Ops out of enjoyment of the Ops, and not because one must have a new thing to do every month and only gets enjoyment out of conquering a new challenge.