Are ops/raids outdated?

[Tsillah]

Hey Slowpokemon, I see that you are still using all kind of made up numbers to "support" your claims. At least you're getting a lot of mileage out of moaning about it here. I bet you spend more time on the forum than in game by now.

 

But all that aside. Are you still subbed and if you are....why?

[Slowpokeking]

Nothing to do with tactical/down leveling current raids.

Easier to group=more people would do it, simple.

 

 

They are fun now, understand it.

Fun? People were only running them for gears, some people were even bored by SM and only wanted to run a last boss lockout.

 

 

 

There weren't more people running those ops, that's your imagination again. But by all means ... prove that they were, burden of proof lies with you here.

 

There were, have you been on during the 3.0 cycle?

The SM ops didn't change much, people run them for comm/gear daily.

EV/KP HM got more ppl to run because of the top tier gear drop.

There were pug raiding for theEC/ TFB/SNV/DF NIM. Now there is none.

Many raiders have left the game due to no new content.

 

Other than EV/KP HM, most of the other ops were even worse than before.

 

As you say due to lack of new ops - making these tactical/down leveled doesn't change this fact.

More people would run these decades old ops since there were less pain to find group/effort.

 

 

Yes, they are more popular now ( where people can run it 50-65 ) than they were solely at 50.

Really? There were more people running EC HM and NIM in the 3.0 cycle. Only EV and KP HM became more popular because they were not too hard for pugs and drop top tier gear.

 

I read the thread ... not seeing many others or anyone jumping in to your defense here if what you are saying is such a popular concept. Other threads of popular options can have 100+ individual posters in support of a concept ... no your idea though ... wonder why.

Others have proved the situation, it's the most popular server.

 

 

 

NIM has nothing to do with giving people a tactical/down leveled operation - you just want downlevel nim to get the rewards because you're too crap now.

NIM had nothing to do with it when it came out. Now it's different because like I had explained a numbers of times before, if you keep the difficulty, pugs and most of the people won't try them due to the difficulty/ they can get top tier from other ops. The raiders aren't gonna stay and keep trying the same old thing, they want new ops, either they switch their attention to the new content or most of them would leave.

 

Prove it.

 

This is real experience from the most popular server, you can close your eyes to say nothing had happened.

 

 

 

In other words you can't.

No, there were others' post that already told you it.

 

 

Which I play and see a completely different situation to what you describe ... as I said it's all in your head.

Completely different? People are keep forming groups for HM/NIM on the channel? Didn't you say HM are not for pugs?

 

 

********. Prove it.

 

It's true, ask people here. During 3.0 there were more pugs doing NIM TFB, SNV and DF.

 

It's NIM - it's not designed for pugs.

It wasn't

, but when their era is done, if the difficulty is still there, nobody would even run it. and it would turn into a giant waste. This is why MMO content has a lifespan.

 

 

I get that your delusional in your beliefs.

What?

 

 

So the current system works then ... just needs new ops. Nice to know.

It only works on EV/KP HM because there were no new ops. Understand it.

 

 

You explained how you wished it worked for all MMOs.

It's not how I wished, it was what successful MMOs had gone.

 

 

99% lol ... your deluded. By all means post up evidence of this 99% ...

 

That's what I've seen on the most popular server.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Hey Slowpokemon, I see that you are still using all kind of made up numbers to "support" your claims. At least you're getting a lot of mileage out of moaning about it here. I bet you spend more time on the forum than in game by now.

 

But all that aside. Are you still subbed and if you are....why?

 

No, I am playing mostly solo(trying some heroic quests and star Fortress), waiting for the story. But raid has been over for me, other than some SM last boss lockout.

[Tsillah]

No, I am playing mostly solo(trying some heroic quests and star Fortress), waiting for the story. But raid has been over for me, other than some SM last boss lockout.

 

Well, you've made it into a lengthy swan song, I'll give you that.

 

Truth is though, there are still plenty of operations going on on my server. So in spite of what you may think it's still very much alive from what I can see. I agree there are issues but it seems that your estimations are just imaginations and I suppose that because I am in a guild with a number of regular players we're just having fun as a group regardless.

[Slowpokeking]

Well, you've made it into a lengthy swan song, I'll give you that.

 

Truth is though, there are still plenty of operations going on on my server. So in spite of what you may think it's still very much alive from what I can see. I agree there are issues but it seems that your estimations are just imaginations and I suppose that because I am in a guild with a number of regular players we're just having fun as a group regardless.

 

There were, but most of them are just SM/ EV KP HM, even before 4.0 it's not hard to find ppl for the daily SM ops.

[FlavivsAetivs]

The reason fewer people are queuing for ops, let alone capable of doing an op, is because the game no longer teaches people their class so they get to the endgame ops/pvp and have no clue what they're doing. Veteran players don't want to risk being in a fail group, which most pugs usually will be, and new players get alienated for being incapable of doing the content.

 

This, along with the lack of new content and Bioware's inability to fix bugs, has basically destroyed the PvE playerbase.

 

So no, I do not support the OP, at all. It will only make things even worse than they are now. Unfortunately Bioware will think it's a great solution and probably use it.

 

We won't get new ops as they're releasing the absolute minimal amount of game content. Like it or not, ops are going the way of GSF.

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited March 20, 2016 by FlavivsAetivs

[Slowpokeking]

The reason fewer people are queuing for ops, let alone capable of doing an op, is because the game no longer teaches people their class so they get to the endgame ops/pvp and have no clue what they're doing. Veteran players don't want to risk being in a fail group, which most pugs usually will be, and new players get alienated for being incapable of doing the content.

 

This, along with the lack of new content and Bioware's inability to fix bugs, has basically destroyed the PvE playerbase.

 

So no, I do not support the OP, at all. It will only make things even worse than they are now. Unfortunately Bioware will think it's a great solution and probably use it.

 

Like it or not, this game is well on its way out. We won't get new ops as they're releasing the minimal amount of actual game content. I predict they'll finish up the story with act 2 and shutdown in 2017.

 

~ Eudoxia

How did the old system teach player? I've played since 1.1 and hit 50 with my first char during 1.2. I don't think it's much different than now for people to know about SM ops, other than the "directy 60" token.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[ludoviccb]

How did the old system teach player? I've played since 1.1 and hit 50 with my first char during 1.2. I don't think it's much different than now for people to know about SM ops, other than the "directy 60" token.

 

For the Sentinel (my first toon), the last boss of act 1 was unbeatable at level unless I learned how to interrupt. The last boss of Belsavis was a case of don't pull aggro from the boss or you die. The mobs were doing more damage than the healing companion was able to heal at level so I had to learn when to use defensive cooldown and avoid aoe on the ground to survive. You had to kill those fast enough before you get killed and using only the basic attack wasn't going to cut it, so some form of rotation was needed to learn. All those things were teaching at least some basics of rotation, role, utilities and to avoid taking damage. It didn't make a great player, but at least, they knew had an idea of the basics of their role.

 

Now, I could aggro just about any mob or boss from the story quest and wait until my healer companion kill them all. If you don't even have the chance to get killed while leveling, unless you start aggroing everything in range, it doesn't force people to learn the basic mechanics of their class such as using something else than the basic attack (saw a level 65 Commando in a HM FP using only Hammer Shot while standing still in aoes).

[Slowpokeking]

For the Sentinel (my first toon), the last boss of act 1 was unbeatable at level unless I learned how to interrupt. The last boss of Belsavis was a case of don't pull aggro from the boss or you die. The mobs were doing more damage than the healing companion was able to heal at level so I had to learn when to use defensive cooldown and avoid aoe on the ground to survive. You had to kill those fast enough before you get killed and using only the basic attack wasn't going to cut it, so some form of rotation was needed to learn. All those things were teaching at least some basics of rotation, role, utilities and to avoid taking damage. It didn't make a great player, but at least, they knew had an idea of the basics of their role.

 

Now, I could aggro just about any mob or boss from the story quest and wait until my healer companion kill them all. If you don't even have the chance to get killed while leveling, unless you start aggroing everything in range, it doesn't force people to learn the basic mechanics of their class such as using something else than the basic attack (saw a level 65 Commando in a HM FP using only Hammer Shot while standing still in aoes).

 

I don't think personal quests got to do much about ops. Most of the ops bosses are immune to CC/interrupt.

 

The FP is a good way but I guess most of the people don't do them until they finish their story(other than BT). Every era got noobs, for SM ops, it wasn't really too bad. I can endure some mistakes, long wait/DC/ragequit is more annoying.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[devincor]

I don't think personal quests got to do much about ops.

 

But the point is they used to. In the early years, you had to play your class well to survive some encounters. Now you can pretty much go from 1 - 65 using a basic attack, not dodging any aoe circle, not knowing how to cc/disrupt. Plus, now that the game is almost completely soloable, players don't know how to assist other players (target of target/healing/etc) You now have a companion that can do all roles + your job. The newer players that are joining your pugs probably do not know their abilities as well as they should because the game got to easy/faceroll.

 

I do believe Menace is correct. HM and NiM were not made for PuGs. They were designed as a challenge for Hardcore groups.That doesn't mean a PuG couldn't try or succeed at them.

 

After going through all the posts here, what I see is that you are a casual player that wants to do old school raids for the loots without the raid because of impatience ( you use the word drama but describe waiting for tanks and disconnects, that's not drama). That seems more of a player problem than a game problem. You won't take the time to schedule a one time (maybe two hour at the most) raid with a few friends or a guild? This is an MMO. Group and raid activites are part of that experience.

 

You argument about lifespan of content is only relevant to the player of that content. Some might see facerolling content as a intented result of overleveling, other might see it as sad to see good content trivialized. Each MMO is different in how they deal with this. I never really played wow (tried it a week and hated it) but I did play EQ1. I can say the higher level you were the less soloable mobs became for most classes at least. (even with 15 level differences in most cases.) Blade and Soul, it seems 5 levels different might be enough to solo dungeon content.

 

Your posts seem more of an attempt to take away the last bastion of group play. Raiding really is the last group play fixture in this game. Your desire for the loot of raids without working for it is creating the ill feelings. The reason I think this is only about the loot is you complain about not being able to faceroll raid content due to scaling, but ALL the game is scaled now. Why not attack scaling in general? You don't faceroll Heroics/Flashpoints/planets anyhting anymore. Why only attack raid scaling (unless it is only about the loot) ?

[Tsillah]

There were, but most of them are just SM/ EV KP HM, even before 4.0 it's not hard to find ppl for the daily SM ops.

 

And this is the thing you need to understand. What's important is that people do operations. Which ones is step two. Of course EV and KP are favourites because they are more accessible to a lot more players, but at the same time the rotation of the priority ops also plays a role and if I'm not mistaken SaV will be on this coming week and we will see a lot of runs in that ops. Also I see people wanting to do different ops as well in between. You are right that it's not the majority but there is logic in the point that the more difficult operations in HM will attract fewer players because they are in fact too hard for a lot of players.

 

So please. This threads has many many pages and the only reason you are so active in this thread is that YOU got bored with the current set up of operations and now try to mirror this unto the entire community. And that is your lie, that's your falsehood. The truth is that you're angry about how they handled operations and while many other people do operations you do not and you want people to believe that these other people are not enjoying the current set up in a futile attempt to "prove" that BW has to do what you want.

 

Just accept that it's not going to happen and see what that means to you. It's always better to pay for the product you have than the product you hope it might be, so in that sense it is logical that you stopped your sub. But this litany of woe-is-me turned into a made up state-of-the-game reflection is just turning in circles and if you believe that this thread is actually going somewhere or is going to make a difference, I fear you are mistaken. In fact, there is no indication that this thread is doing anything more than giving your self-wallowing an obscene amount of stage time.

 

So yes, this thread has annoyed me more than it has enriched me. In fact nothing enriching has come out of this at all because of it's awkward regurgitation of non-facts and now I have to decide what that means to me.

 

Feel free to continue, we both live in relatively free countries, but know that this post will be the last here in this thread and that in my personal opinion you have offered NOTHING that actually supports your point, except false numbers that you made up because they suit your experience, which again is nothing. Disappointing because clearly there are issues that are worth discussing but they are drowned in the falsehoods that are being presented as if they were facts.

 

And from my personal experience, there is nothing that clouds issues more than opinions that are treated like facts.

[FlavivsAetivs]

For the Sentinel (my first toon), the last boss of act 1 was unbeatable at level unless I learned how to interrupt. The last boss of Belsavis was a case of don't pull aggro from the boss or you die. The mobs were doing more damage than the healing companion was able to heal at level so I had to learn when to use defensive cooldown and avoid aoe on the ground to survive. You had to kill those fast enough before you get killed and using only the basic attack wasn't going to cut it, so some form of rotation was needed to learn. All those things were teaching at least some basics of rotation, role, utilities and to avoid taking damage. It didn't make a great player, but at least, they knew had an idea of the basics of their role.

 

Now, I could aggro just about any mob or boss from the story quest and wait until my healer companion kill them all. If you don't even have the chance to get killed while leveling, unless you start aggroing everything in range, it doesn't force people to learn the basic mechanics of their class such as using something else than the basic attack (saw a level 65 Commando in a HM FP using only Hammer Shot while standing still in aoes).

 

Flashpoints also slowly added healing and tanking mechanics as you scaled up in level, back when they were supposed to be done at-level.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Slowpokeking]

But the point is they used to. In the early years, you had to play your class well to survive some encounters. Now you can pretty much go from 1 - 65 using a basic attack, not dodging any aoe circle, not knowing how to cc/disrupt. Plus, now that the game is almost completely soloable, players don't know how to assist other players (target of target/healing/etc) You now have a companion that can do all roles + your job. The newer players that are joining your pugs probably do not know their abilities as well as they should because the game got to easy/faceroll.

 

I do believe Menace is correct. HM and NiM were not made for PuGs. They were designed as a challenge for Hardcore groups.That doesn't mean a PuG couldn't try or succeed at them.

 

After going through all the posts here, what I see is that you are a casual player that wants to do old school raids for the loots without the raid because of impatience ( you use the word drama but describe waiting for tanks and disconnects, that's not drama). That seems more of a player problem than a game problem. You won't take the time to schedule a one time (maybe two hour at the most) raid with a few friends or a guild? This is an MMO. Group and raid activites are part of that experience.

 

You argument about lifespan of content is only relevant to the player of that content. Some might see facerolling content as a intented result of overleveling, other might see it as sad to see good content trivialized. Each MMO is different in how they deal with this. I never really played wow (tried it a week and hated it) but I did play EQ1. I can say the higher level you were the less soloable mobs became for most classes at least. (even with 15 level differences in most cases.) Blade and Soul, it seems 5 levels different might be enough to solo dungeon content.

 

Your posts seem more of an attempt to take away the last bastion of group play. Raiding really is the last group play fixture in this game. Your desire for the loot of raids without working for it is creating the ill feelings. The reason I think this is only about the loot is you complain about not being able to faceroll raid content due to scaling, but ALL the game is scaled now. Why not attack scaling in general? You don't faceroll Heroics/Flashpoints/planets anyhting anymore. Why only attack raid scaling (unless it is only about the loot) ?

 

Yes but most of these had to do with interrupt/snare/cc, these got little to do with ops.

 

EQ1 was a very niche MMO compare to later ones. HM and NIM weren't designed for pugs when they came out, but when their era is gone, the raiders are gonna focus on new content rather than stay on these old ones. If they are still too hard for pugs then nobody would do them anymore, plus the drop would be surpassed by the new ops' SM. That, is "good content gets trivialized". This is why MMO content has a lifespan and why don't they always stay on their difficulty. if you try to keep the "difficulty" then it will truly die and get wasted, and a large percent of the content would never be truly experienced by the majority, even after the raiders have moved on.

 

I am a casual player but I've done NIM SnV with pugs when half of the group had never done NIM Styrak before.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

And this is the thing you need to understand. What's important is that people do operations. Which ones is step two. Of course EV and KP are favourites because they are more accessible to a lot more players, but at the same time the rotation of the priority ops also plays a role and if I'm not mistaken SaV will be on this coming week and we will see a lot of runs in that ops. Also I see people wanting to do different ops as well in between. You are right that it's not the majority but there is logic in the point that the more difficult operations in HM will attract fewer players because they are in fact too hard for a lot of players.

 

So please. This threads has many many pages and the only reason you are so active in this thread is that YOU got bored with the current set up of operations and now try to mirror this unto the entire community. And that is your lie, that's your falsehood. The truth is that you're angry about how they handled operations and while many other people do operations you do not and you want people to believe that these other people are not enjoying the current set up in a futile attempt to "prove" that BW has to do what you want.

 

Just accept that it's not going to happen and see what that means to you. It's always better to pay for the product you have than the product you hope it might be, so in that sense it is logical that you stopped your sub. But this litany of woe-is-me turned into a made up state-of-the-game reflection is just turning in circles and if you believe that this thread is actually going somewhere or is going to make a difference, I fear you are mistaken. In fact, there is no indication that this thread is doing anything more than giving your self-wallowing an obscene amount of stage time.

 

So yes, this thread has annoyed me more than it has enriched me. In fact nothing enriching has come out of this at all because of it's awkward regurgitation of non-facts and now I have to decide what that means to me.

 

Feel free to continue, we both live in relatively free countries, but know that this post will be the last here in this thread and that in my personal opinion you have offered NOTHING that actually supports your point, except false numbers that you made up because they suit your experience, which again is nothing. Disappointing because clearly there are issues that are worth discussing but they are drowned in the falsehoods that are being presented as if they were facts.

 

And from my personal experience, there is nothing that clouds issues more than opinions that are treated like facts.

LOL even in the 3.0 era you don't have to worry about seeing people do SM, still few people would try HM or NIM. Back at 3.0 there were NIM pugs.

[devincor]

Yes but most of these had to do with interrupt/snare/cc, these got little to do with ops.

 

They did teach you not to stand in AoE's and some grouping aspects before the companions did everything for you.

 

EQ1 was a very niche MMO compare to later ones.

 

All MMO's are niche compared to each other. There is not one out there that covers multiple genre's and/or playstyles well..

 

This is why MMO content has a lifespan and why don't they always stay on their difficulty. if you try to keep the "difficulty" then it will truly die and get wasted, and a large percent of the content would never be truly experienced by the majority, even after the raiders have moved on.

 

Ah, but there is the problem. They did increase the difficulty and people are still doing the content. So it isn't being trivialized and getting wasted. Your problem is that people are lazy and will take the path of least resistance to get what they want. They option to do the other Ops are there, they just don't want to work for it.

 

"A larger percent of the content would never be truly experienced..." Operations are a very small percentage of the game in total. The casual player has a majority of the game already to play in. If they want to play in this part, they need to adjust to it, not the other way around. If we keep adjusting everything to casual, there is no reason to create new raids at all.

 

While some other MMO's allow for the trivialization of past xpansions, SWTOR has chosen not to.

 

I've gone from Casual to Raider and now back to Casual. My group will once in awhile get on and do a Op. At the moment we are bored and in a holding pattern (not because of just no ops). Episodic storytelling doesn't really fit with our group. Considering how people watch TV now by binge-ing on complete seasons of shows on Hulu and Netflix you would think Bioware would of learned this. Hell, I record my shows on the DVR, wait till it's full then spend a day watching them. I don't like spoon-fed content. I like to be able to go through the content at my own pace.

 

I think there will be new ops coming. The problem is that ops usually take place at the end of the xpansion or story. Since we are episodic we have to wait for them. (It makes no sense to have a Raid to destroy Arcann/Zakuul/whatever when story wise we have not even finished forming a coalition.)

[Slowpokeking]

They did teach you not to stand in AoE's and some grouping aspects before the companions did everything for you.

This could be learned with 1 fp run.

 

 

 

All MMO's are niche compared to each other. There is not one out there that covers multiple genre's and/or playstyles well..

EQ1 is from a different era, it's niche compare to later ones.

 

 

Ah, but there is the problem. They did increase the difficulty and people are still doing the content. So it isn't being trivialized and getting wasted. Your problem is that people are lazy and will take the path of least resistance to get what they want. They option to do the other Ops are there, they just don't want to work for it.

 

Its isnt's? How many people are still doing the EC/SNV/DF/DP HM/NIM ops compare to 3.0? There are significantly less pugs are doing them now and many raiders have left. You must be joking if you ignore this.

 

"A larger percent of the content would never be truly experienced..." Operations are a very small percentage of the game in total. The casual player has a majority of the game already to play in. If they want to play in this part, they need to adjust to it, not the other way around. If we keep adjusting everything to casual, there is no reason to create new raids at all.

It's not a small percentage in the END GAME content and it took a lot of resources to make, especially when we are taling about PVE. Why shouldn't we adjust very old content to casual players when the raiders have moved on to new content? Why do you want to leave them for dead without the majority even experiencing them?

 

WHY are you suggesting that old nightmare content should still be kept from people who had never experienced them, when the raiders had moved on? To keep the "pride" with the cost of wasted, dead content?

 

 

While some other MMO's allow for the trivialization of past xpansions, SWTOR has chosen not to.

It's not "SWTOR has chosen not to" but "SWTOR could not offer enough new content so it could only stick with old ones to keep the challenge"

 

 

 

I've gone from Casual to Raider and now back to Casual. My group will once in awhile get on and do a Op. At the moment we are bored and in a holding pattern (not because of just no ops). Episodic storytelling doesn't really fit with our group. Considering how people watch TV now by binge-ing on complete seasons of shows on Hulu and Netflix you would think Bioware would of learned this. Hell, I record my shows on the DVR, wait till it's full then spend a day watching them. I don't like spoon-fed content. I like to be able to go through the content at my own pace.

Yes, that's why people don't want to waste time on drama.

 

I think there will be new ops coming. The problem is that ops usually take place at the end of the xpansion or story. Since we are episodic we have to wait for them. (It makes no sense to have a Raid to destroy Arcann/Zakuul/whatever when story wise we have not even finished forming a coalition.)

There will be, and by that time, the current "success" of the EV/KP HM will either take a heel faced turn or the new content would not grab people's attention.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Easier to group=more people would do it, simple.

 

Oh so the group finder needs an overhaul? Seems fair enough.

 

Fun? People were only running them for gears, some people were even bored by SM and only wanted to run a last boss lockout.

 

YOU are only running it for gear, don't speak for others being that no one here is supporting your opinion.

 

 

There were, have you been on during the 3.0 cycle?

The SM ops didn't change much, people run them for comm/gear daily.

EV/KP HM got more ppl to run because of the top tier gear drop.

There were pug raiding for theEC/ TFB/SNV/DF NIM. Now there is none.

Many raiders have left the game due to no new content.

 

None of that is proof, it's opinion.

 

 

Other than EV/KP HM, most of the other ops were even worse than before.

 

Unfounded opinion.

 

 

More people would run these decades old ops since there were less pain to find group/effort.

 

Unfounded opinion.

 

Really? There were more people running EC HM and NIM in the 3.0 cycle. Only EV and KP HM became more popular because they were not too hard for pugs and drop top tier gear.

 

They weren't NIM if you were godmode, they just had the NIM title from the past. This has been fixed.

 

Others have proved the situation, it's the most popular server.

 

Where is this proof?

 

 

NIM had nothing to do with it when it came out. Now it's different because like I had explained a numbers of times before, if you keep the difficulty, pugs and most of the people won't try them due to the difficulty/ they can get top tier from other ops. The raiders aren't gonna stay and keep trying the same old thing, they want new ops, either they switch their attention to the new content or most of them would leave.

 

NIM isn't for pugging, SM is. If poeople want to try pug NIM cool , power to them but it's designed to be incredibly difficult hence "nightmare mode".

 

 

This is real experience from the most popular server, you can close your eyes to say nothing had happened.

 

That's not proof either, that's more unfounded opinion.

 

 

No, there were others' post that already told you it.

 

Where?

 

 

Completely different? People are keep forming groups for HM/NIM on the channel? Didn't you say HM are not for pugs?

 

What does HM/NIM have to do with giving people tactical modes or down leveling content? You want to make easier than SM content so stop talking about HM/NIM - it has no relationship to your concept other than your greed for wanting drops you aren't good enough to get yourself.

 

It's true, ask people here. During 3.0 there were more pugs doing NIM TFB, SNV and DF.

 

I'm not asking anyone anything, burden of proof is on you.

 

 

It wasn't

, but when their era is done, if the difficulty is still there, nobody would even run it. and it would turn into a giant waste. This is why MMO content has a lifespan.

 

It's not ... it's nightmare mode.

 

It only works on EV/KP HM because there were no new ops. Understand it.

 

What only works?

 

It's not how I wished, it was what successful MMOs had gone.

 

Doesn't prove this is the reason they were the most successful though ... prove that's the reason they succeeded and not just a thing they do but are successful for other reasons.

 

That's what I've seen on the most popular server.

 

You and yourself sure.

[Stradlin]

Honestly I have absolutely no clue why anyone who doesn't like GSF would keep playing this game.

 

GSF is most unique thing that has ever happened to TOR. People who discover it have huge amounts of fun. Most importantly, they have kind of fun they'd not find in any other MMO. Which other game lets you play a Pilot of a Starfighter?

 

Besides GSF pilots I look around and all these people and don't have slightest of clue what makes them pick SW:TOR over MMos that actually have new MMO content in live dev.

 

Notable exception, to the above.. social aspects that have everything to do with people and nothing to do with game as such. Being in awesome guilds, RPs, friends, etc.

[devincor]

WHY are you suggesting that old nightmare content should still be kept from people who had never experienced them, when the raiders had moved on? To keep the "pride" with the cost of wasted, dead content?

 

I am not saying it should be kept from them, I am saying they need to "experience" it the way it was intended to be - with it being a challenge. How does facerolling nightmare content give an "experience"? If you are facerolling through it, you do not experience it at all. You might as well be doing story mode at that point.

 

Which still brings back my original question: Why just go after scaled raids and not attack scaling in general? If it is for the "experience" you should be wanting the rollback of all scaling. Otherwise you just want access to raid loot made easier.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I am not saying it should be kept from them, I am saying they need to "experience" it the way it was intended to be - with it being a challenge. How does facerolling nightmare content give an "experience"? If you are facerolling through it, you do not experience it at all. You might as well be doing story mode at that point.

 

Which still brings back my original question: Why just go after scaled raids and not attack scaling in general? If it is for the "experience" you should be wanting the rollback of all scaling. Otherwise you just want access to raid loot made easier.

 

^^this

[Slowpokeking]

Oh so the group finder needs an overhaul? Seems fair enough.

Yes, especially now.

 

 

YOU are only running it for gear, don't speak for others being that no one here is supporting your opinion.

 

Take out the 208/216/220 gears plus the data crystals from the ops and let's see how many people will keep on.

 

 

None of that is proof, it's opinion.

It is, you just refuse to believe it.

 

 

They weren't NIM if you were godmode, they just had the NIM title from the past. This has been fixed.

And THIS is what it should have been, do you even understand? Old NIM ops will simply die and become a waste if it keeps the difficulty when its era had past and new content had come out. Raiders would move on and casuals won't bother to try it.

 

Where is this proof?

Look at previous pages. You are simply ignoring what was going on in the game and simply state they are just opinions.

 

 

NIM isn't for pugging, SM is. If poeople want to try pug NIM cool , power to them but it's designed to be incredibly difficult hence "nightmare mode".

 

NIM WASN'T for pugging, they WERE designed to be very hard. When new ops comes out with new xpc, the raiders won't stay at it, they are going to move on. Casuals would stay away, thus nightmare ops becomes dead ops. Only a very small percent of people had experienced them and they had moved on, people like you still want it to be kept away by the rest such a pity.

 

 

What does HM/NIM have to do with giving people tactical modes or down leveling content? You want to make easier than SM content so stop talking about HM/NIM - it has no relationship to your concept other than your greed for wanting drops you aren't good enough to get yourself.

Why shouldn't it become down leveling, when its era is LONG GONE? Raiders are getting bored of old content and left, they would have moved on new content if there had been any rather than stay on this. Pugs and casuals aren't going to kill themselves for it. Thus it went dead and becomes a huge waste. Isn't it easy to understand?

 

It's not ... it's nightmare mode.

 

It's nightmare mode doesn't mean it always have to stay on this difficulty otherwise it simply dies.

 

What only works?

 

The popularity of EV/KP HM

 

Doesn't prove this is the reason they were the most successful though ... prove that's the reason they succeeded and not just a thing they do but are successful for other reasons.

Let me make it clear to you.

 

A successful MMO had to grab players, and it would have been utterly stupid if a large part of the endgame content isn't going to be tasted by the majority FOREVER, casual players are what keep the games going and no successful MMO didn't do a good job to please them. Sure there should be difficult content and challenge for raiders, but it doesn't mean it had to stick there even after 2-3 years of its release ,after the raiders had moved on new content/left because there is nothing new. That's a waste and insult to casuals and aren't gonna keep the interest of the raiders.

[Slowpokeking]

I am not saying it should be kept from them, I am saying they need to "experience" it the way it was intended to be - with it being a challenge. How does facerolling nightmare content give an "experience"? If you are facerolling through it, you do not experience it at all. You might as well be doing story mode at that point.

 

Which still brings back my original question: Why just go after scaled raids and not attack scaling in general? If it is for the "experience" you should be wanting the rollback of all scaling. Otherwise you just want access to raid loot made easier.

 

Why are you still missing it? If you keep the difficulty forever, casual people are not going to do it because it was designed for raid guilds, even they had to spend a lot of wipes to make it, especially the nightmares. Casual people aren't gonna try this, something they could not do unless they change themselves to raiders and spend a lot of effort on it, even if they do they might not start from these old ops but the new ones. So if you keep the difficulty after their era is gone. What's gonna happen?

 

Raiders would spend their full effort on the new content rather than keep interest on the old ones, many of them, or most of them would leave and get a better raid game if there is no new content. It's not fun to keep running the same thing for 2-3 years when other games are offering new content.

 

Casuals are going to stay away from these ops like before, because the difficulty is not designed for them at all, trying it would only cause death and frustration, Even if they want challenge they would try the new ones, if there is no new ops they are going to stick with their SM/some HM ops.

 

So these nightmare ops would be abandoned by both sides. It's going to die, simple. Sure they once were designed by Hardcore raiders only, but that era is gone, most of those people were either gone or had moved on. WHY should it still stay that hard to keep it from the rest of the people and pretty much meet its death? THIS, is why MMO content got a lifespan. I'm not sure why is it so hard to explain. Other than possible "I've beat that content with so many wipes and effort, you NOOBS should never be able to touch on it" logic.

 

Yes, that's what casuals want to experience, not the nightmare difficulty but the content itself. Is it hard to understand?

Edited March 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Why are you still missing it? If you keep the difficulty forever, casual people are not going to do it because it was designed for raid guilds, even they had to spend a lot of wipes to make it, especially the nightmares. Casual people aren't gonna try this

 

So what?!

 

Not everything in this game is made for casuals. The NiM raids are the same story, same everything besides difficulty. Casuals can do the SM versions, if they want a challenge they can do the HM versions. But NiM has and will always be the challenge it is, hence NIGHTMARE...

 

Not everything in this game has to be brought down to the lowest common denominator. They have made storymode OPs faceroll easy for the casuals so they can "experience the story" like they like to rail on about, there is no reason to remove a difficulty setting, or dumb it down...That is what the SM and HM are for.

 

Yes, that's what casuals want to experience, not the nightmare difficulty but the content itself. Is it hard to understand?

 

If they are just interested in story, then that is what SM is for. There is no difference in story from NiM and SM.

Edited March 21, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Slowpokeking]

So what?!

 

Not everything in this game is made for casuals. The NiM raids are the same story, same everything besides difficulty. Casuals can do the SM versions, if they want a challenge they can do the HM versions. But NiM has and will always be the challenge it is, hence NIGHTMARE...

 

Not everything in this game has to be brought down to the lowest common denominator. They have made storymode OPs faceroll easy for the casuals so they can "experience the story" like they like to rail on about, there is no reason to remove a difficulty setting, or dumb it down...That is what the SM and HM are for.

So it becomes DEAD CONTENT after the raiders moved on new content. So what? A DEAD CONTENT which nobody does is pretty much the worst state of a content.

 

Casuals want to try NIM and beat what they once couldn't beat, what's wrong for that? Yeah, not everything was brought for everyone, but everything is designed for a certain group and every group don't just stay on the samething forever. Once the raiders have moved on, these content should be adjusted for other people to run and have fun rather than let it die. In WOW they even nerf the old raid when new ones come out to let everyone be able to "follow up".

 

There always are elite content for people, but it doesn't mean every elite content must always stay at their difficulty, or they would simply wither after the group that was originally targeted, had moved on to new ops or left because there is none, it's a MMO content's lifespan. I don't know why people are keep ignoring it.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

It's quite simple now. Some people here think the OLD HM/NIM should still stay so hard to keep it from casuals, even though many of the elite raiders, the group that was targeted during its release, had either moved on or got bored and left due to it being very old content. They'd rather to let it die rather than make some use and fun to the majority, who wasn't able to taste it for years. Edited March 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking