Please don't let GSF end up like ground pvp

[SeCKSEgai]

Initially when I started this thread my hope was that people would stop and take a look at the state of gsf on harby. I was hoping people would be like hey, I hadn't noticed the population decline, we really do need to nurture the gsf pop a bit and create an environment where pilots of various skill levels can discover enjoyment in gsf and become regulars themselves.

 

Instead it seems to have become more of an us versus them mindset. I even had a player state that they want to be mean, they want to spawn camp and tri cap and do so as long and often as they can and if it kills the server pop so what. I was even accused of slander and that I'm just inciting people "to be pissed" at me. Ask people to split things up evenly and you're told to make your own premade. When you explain that the population isn't there they still expect you to field a team out of thin air.

 

To give some perspective, when I started, I hated GSF. Just like almost every new person who tries it, my experiences were lousy. I focused on ground pvp until the server population migrations made pub side ground feel like an excercise in futility. Pub side, I'd be amazed to have even one healer, where as imp side you could solo q and almost always end up with at least one. Simply put, unless you're able to field 3-4 players in a group pubside, you'd generally be walking into a loss. Where pubside you can wait hours for a single ranked pop, imp side the ranked q can go for hours.

 

It's not so much that imp side was so much better than republic, but that the population differences allowed one side to dominate more consistently than the other.

 

Now part of what kept me in GSF was that one day someone invited me to group. I was still learning but finally starting to improve and someone noticed. Grouping reduced the number of getting a brand new player for every person in team. Essentially it allows one to stack the odds in your favor by "guaranteeing" your team is at a minimum level of strength.

 

Those groups allowed me to finally win more than once in a blue moon and it kept me interested. I got to know more people and found a bit of camaraderie with other fellow pilots. On the other hand, as I was getting better, it also meant that a lot of the time the teams that would oppose us wouldn't always be nearly as experienced. Frankly, at the time it was fun beating up on newer less experienced pilots despite knowing exactly what it was like to be in their shoes, almost a rite of passage to now be on the other end.

 

While I would feel a little guily, I didn't pay it too much mind that I was scaring potential new pilots away from gsf because I was having fun. Almost like a culling, only the dedicated would stay so all these people who learned to hate gsf wouldn't matter because there would always be new people to replace them.

 

Problem is, that was not the case. I could play the harby shuffle and join the strong side and hope to get the good team but when you know you've won a match before it starts it can be a lot less satisfying. So just to be clear, you could say its not so much that I care about nurturing new players, but my own SELFISH desire to have competitive matches.

 

Now, with that said, you can't really sustain an already small community if you're slowly bleeding members and newer people are seeing little reason to stick around.

 

I know I'm far from innocent and have done more than my share of turning pilots away from ever setting foot in another gsf match. Is it really that hard for some people to risk a loss and run more competitive teams for the sake of more frequent matches in the long term?

[Maulkat]

Yes, I view this topic as a "me vs you" because I group on Harb. For the longest time, Rose and I were the only people to offer up groups to people. So when you said something in /gsf about grouping, overpowered sides...ect, I have taken it personally.

 

I learned how to fly on Harb, like many others and got spawn camped and 3 capped. Didn't like it, but pushed through, learned more about gsf (slower than many people), but got better. I have learned what role I'm best suited for and play that. Others are the killers, I am support. Many months ago, I figured out when I field groups, we usually win and invited other, stronger players to queue in against me. To this day, I consistently lose to these people and truly enjoy the competition. However, I'm not going to stop grouping to please a few people. Never once have I turned a person down for a group if I have room. If I don't have room, then I suggest another be formed and as soon as I do have room, I try to get the pilot in question into mine.

 

Lastnight, I did say I'm going to 3 cap, spawn camp and whatnot and that's not like me. I did that to prove a point and to show I have gone easy on noobs before. To show I actually give a damn about the community on my server. I chatted with other pilots about this situation and have been told, I don't owe the noobs anything. We don't need to give me them a node or allow them to get out the spawn point, there are two others they can always chose.

 

Now there are others making premades on Harb and no matter how I time my queue against theirs, I rarely come across them. I've also cut my flying time way back and only really fly on the weekend. Still I get harassed about it. I can't win this.

 

I suggest instead of "being too good to group", make a group and fly against me and these other premades. Even the skies yourself instead of asking others to play by your rules. I'm going to play the game the way I want to and either get my teeth kicked in by other premades or roflestomp the opposition.

 

To address the comments about ground pvp, I always lose. No matter which side I'm on. lol Why I rarely do ground pvp. When I did do ground regularly, the pubs ruled and when I queue in now, they still do. Only time I have chance of winning a WZ is when it's a game against other imps. Doesn't matter if I'm on a dps or heals, it's a loss.

[SeCKSEgai]

. Even the skies yourself instead of asking others to play by your rules. I'm going to play the game the way I want to and either get my teeth kicked in by other premades or roflestomp the opposition.

 

That actually sums up why I felt a need to write the original post in the first place.

 

There are fewer pilots around.

Most do the harby shuffle and flock to the strong side.

A strong group gets formed.

Others flock to that side.

Remaining players that queue aren't in any condition to compete with harbinger shuffle.

Instead of strong pilots recognizing this and splitting off to "even the skies" they remain in their group.

 

You can't form an opposing premade when almost all the potential pilots are trying to avoid taking on said group.

 

I honestly had forgotten how bad it was to be a newer player until I started trying to "even the skies". But I was even more disappointed that instead of experienced pilots being willing to split up to inspire competition, players would prefer to dominate pilots that may not even know how to fly out of spawn.

 

Grouping itself has never been an issue. There's nothing wrong with total domination in moderation. When you're 3, 4, 5 matches deep and a quick glance shows you've won another and the match hasn't even started yet, it would be nice to know that people would prioritize community growth over an easy win.

[MaximilianPower]

I stepped into the middle of this last night. Didn't really have the chance to express myself in /gsf, largely because I was in matches, and typing + flying nearly always ends up in a bad way for me.

 

I can say with some confidence: Maulkat is not trying to field a queue-crushing juggernaut, 3-capping left and right. She does regularly advocate giving a weaker team a sat. I've seen her on both ends of roflstomps. I did take note of her comment last night about being mean, and it seemed way out of character. Based on the post above, and having flown with her a lot, I'm pretty sure it was merely frustration borne largely out of this thread.

 

All that said, Roland, you do have a point. Regularly unbalanced factions and the "harb shuffle" (which I haven't witnessed but I don't doubt your experience) are extremely unfriendly to anyone trying to get their feet wet in GSF. I see this everywhere: TRE can be hell on imps when a particular pub group is on...Eclipse can dominate TEH...on SL it used to be Xi'ao's crew, now it's SRW (though as a member of the latter, we're trying to help the imps out now and then). It isn't so bad on JC but happens there too; the Secforce crew can rule the skies with impunity, and there are some imp groups (which, yes, I've been part of) that can do the same.

 

This is why, largely, I tend to solo queue. I'll join a group if invited but typically don't start them. Generally I'll pick a server, log on, see who's flying, make an educated guess as to which side is weaker and then I'll usually stick it out there for the duration. Sometimes it feels like I'm punishing myself, but other times my side manages to eke out a victory - and those wins are a thousand times more satisfying than any roflstomps. I also feel like playing under these conditions makes me better. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and that sort of thing.

 

When I'm flying with SRW, more often than not, I'm looking for a high-level challenge. Which is what all those guys want. We don't assemble carefully balanced teams and follow detailed SOPs purely to take out scores of noobs: when we do that, it's because we're expecting stiff competition from that server's best. Doesn't always work out this way, but that's the goal.

 

I get that flying solo and/or switching factions as needed isn't for everyone. Some people just want to fly with their friends no matter what, which sometimes means stomp after stomp. And I don't want to tell anyone how to have fun. But ultimately I do believe that faction-swapping - in the interests of evening out the teams - leads to a happier/healthier GSF population. At any given time, it may only take 2-3 guys with that mindset to make a difference. Something to ponder next time you find yourself on the winning side of a mind-numbing 50-1 massacre.

Edited February 29, 2016 by MaximilianPower

[Toraak]

Roland basically, what your asking for tho isn't anything different then what group PvP players have been whining for on the forums for years to break up premades. The problem is This is an MMO. There are plenty of good pilots on harb to form premades on both sides many of us fly on both.

 

What your really asking is for us to stop doing groups more or less, and I for one will tell you what others in the PvP forums say all the time.

 

1) As an MMO you can't tell people they can't group up with guildies/friends. It is the main reason to play an MMO. if I wanted to solo queu, I can go play Tie Fighter or X-Wing, not do GSF. People should be willing to make groups on both sides. (I fly on both sides every day.

 

2) I've flown on this server for several months now, and can honestly say there are plenty of Veteran pilots out there to form premades on both sides at the same time. So the comments about Forming your own group on the other is not accurate. So not forming one by yourself is all on you.

 

3) as for being Noobie friendly, the better option against noobs is to try flying a really terrible ship component wise against them instead of flying Meta ships. I love to fly a Pike/quell, or Nova-dive Blackbolt (which nova/blackbolt use RFL, freq cap, and pods on them, so clearly not made up to proper spec). Also make sure to leave 1 Sat for them undefended if you 3 cap them so they can take it, and let them have it (makes for a boring match for us, but it lets them have a sat for the match at least)

Edited February 29, 2016 by Toraak

[SeCKSEgai]

Roland basically, what your asking for tho isn't anything different then what group PvP players have been whining for on the forums for years to break up premades. The problem is This is an MMO. There are plenty of good pilots on harb to form premades on both sides many of us fly on both.

 

What your really asking is for us to stop doing groups more or less, and I for one will tell you what others in the PvP forums say all the time.

 

1) As an MMO you can't tell people they can't group up with guildies/friends. It is the main reason to play an MMO. if I wanted to solo queu, I can go play Tie Fighter or X-Wing, not do GSF. People should be willing to make groups on both sides. (I fly on both sides every day.

 

2) I've flown on this server for several months now, and can honestly say there are plenty of Veteran pilots out there to form premades on both sides at the same time. So the comments about Forming your own group on the other is not accurate. So not forming one by yourself is all on you.

 

3) as for being Noobie friendly, the better option against noobs is to try flying a really terrible ship component wise against them instead of flying Meta ships. I love to fly a Pike/quell, or Nova-dive Blackbolt (which nova/blackbolt use RFL, freq cap, and pods on them, so clearly not made up to proper spec). Also make sure to leave 1 Sat for them undefended if you 3 cap them so they can take it, and let them have it (makes for a boring match for us, but it lets them have a sat for the match at least)

1. No one ever said stop grouping. It's more, hey your group is really strong and there's not many regulars on atm, mind splitting it up a little to make things more competitive?

 

You say its my responsibility to find these pilots and form an opposing team, but NONE OF YOU offer to help. The only exception I've seen to this since it started becoming problematic is Scion. The rest of the pilots that normally would aren't generally on anymore. Do i really need to start uploading the teams of the matches? If these veterans were on and available like people want to assume they are - this would never have made it to a thread.

 

There was a time where people cared less about winning and more about having fun with each other.

 

There are only so many veterans, and we don't all fly at the same time. Remember Neutrinos, I don't remember the last time I saw him. Tom? He shows up once in a blue moon. Despon? He got fed up with the bomber spam against new people. Keenz? MiA for some time now.... I haven't seen Royental, Gabriel, etc in ages, only warbird squadron I still see consistently is Vin.

 

As for pvp - you notice I didn't complain about premades there? I get it - imp side is pvp oriented and once the server migration started there was no way pub side could keep up. Imp side has the people and its clearly reflected in ranked, both solo/team. There's no point in trying to find recourse for pubside ground. I was hoping that our smaller community would not suffer the same fate.

 

If you're saying not to play gsf because I'm not willing to group you're misunderstanding the point of the whole thread. I stopped grouping because matches were so one-sided so frequently I actually got bored enough to start trying to even the odds. If I was like a lot of the others, I'd do the harby shuffle to and just run the strong side. Hell I used to do it group or not, I know it very well because it was how I got my dailies done faster.

 

If you're stating that to gsf you need to group...how would we get new people if not for solo q? I played GSF solo for some time before ever grouping. The only reason I found out about the GSF channel was someone mentioning it in a gsf match. I don't know of anyone that grouped for their first match. It's also hard to get in a group when no one knows you, not everyone is that inviting.

 

We all fly both sides - I really hate hearing people say that. It's like unknowingly acknowledging that the harbinger shuffle exists yet pilots are expected to somehow turn up after the team stack kicks in. You know why the shuffle exists? Because once it starts being lopsided, people get frustrated. People join the strong side in an attempt to avoid said frustration.

 

But as far as yesterday goes. I played a match where no one was in a group vs the "premade". I spent almost the entire match keeping ONE person busy. The only reason I was able to do that was because the rest of my team was effective enough to draw away his usual protection. We won despite having 3 default twoshippers. Thankfully, there were some experienced pilots on and we maintained control long enough to win it. There was no voice com, people knew what was necessary and did what they could. The people in that match thanked each other after that match was over because we knew we were underdogs going into it. The match that plays out after apparently is mostly spawn camped and likely as revenge for getting beat.

 

Some of my favorite matches I've had were grouped, once with Drak and another with SRW, and both were educational.

 

But really, I just wish people would stop lying to themselves. No one likes to be spawn camped, and if a team is so weak you can actually do it to them - excusing it by saying there are other spawns is a joke. If you've already pushed them to spawn they're already losing and being dominated. Swapping spawn points isn't going to MAGICALLY allow the team to win - Now if people quit and vets backfill.....

 

Grouping is perfectly fine - but when you know you outclass the other side several matches later and you don't even make an effort to have some friends split - you just alienate people. My distaste for grouping arose from people valuing winning over friendly competition. I preferred when we had fun shooting each other and didn't worry about the win rates.

[SeCKSEgai]

This is why, largely, I tend to solo queue. I'll join a group if invited but typically don't start them. Generally I'll pick a server, log on, see who's flying, make an educated guess as to which side is weaker and then I'll usually stick it out there for the duration. Sometimes it feels like I'm punishing myself, but other times my side manages to eke out a victory - and those wins are a thousand times more satisfying than any roflstomps. I also feel like playing under these conditions makes me better. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger, and that sort of thing.

.

 

Since you mention it that is another thing - at least a few pilots come to mind that I know would be able to play at a much higher level if they didn't have a solid team supporting them and had to try to cope and adapt to being on the weaker side. When you don't have the luxury of a strong team at your side you become aware of things you wouldn't have noticed before.

[Greezt]

Trying to get people to queue solo is a waste of time, as is trying to get them to queue with new players. Just like in ground pvp, many players prefer to group with friends, and some do it in order to win.

 

The people who group for wins are the ones you won't convince to break up the group. There's nothing that can be done about it, except winning against them.

 

I think a much more effective approach would be, at the beginning of the match, to inform people of the existance of the GSF chat, and tell them to ask for help there. Offering a group often works very well too. That's usually enough to keep new players flying, in my experience.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Greezt

[caederon]

Whether good pilots group or solo queue is a trivial issue when all the good pilots are flying on the same faction.

 

When things are lopsided match after match in favor of one side, it would be to the benefit of everyone if half of the good pilots stayed Imp and half went Pub. That way, you would at least have the chance of evenly matched teams being pitted against each other.

 

Despon

[DomiSotto]

Well, I do my very best to tone it down on the Imperial side! I bring balance! Yep, that's it, that's what I do. Balance is my middle name. Edited February 29, 2016 by DomiSotto

[Greezt]

I might have misunderstood the general feeling on this thread, then. Apologies.

 

The only thing that can be done against one-sidedness is swapping sides yourself, I guess. At least, that's what I try to do. Either that, or flying a fun ship instead of a meta one.

 

Well, I do my very best to tone it down on the Imperial side! I bring balance! Yep, that's it, that's what I do. Balance is my middle name.

 

So you fly both sides? Because if not...

Edited February 29, 2016 by Greezt

[DomiSotto]

Ah, no. If I stand strong on one side long enough, my superior rock-solid noobness will make the winds and the tides shift! Thus the Balance is restored. It's all me!

 

Seriously, I am afraid of many things, but having my pixels wiped out in a computer game ain't one of them. Like, even multiple times.

 

A new player strongly benefits from sticking to one character. There is no advantages at all to play more than that. So, well, looking out for number one in GSF means sticking to it till you start packing the punch.

Edited February 29, 2016 by DomiSotto

[MaximilianPower]

Trying to get people to queue solo is a waste of time, as is trying to get them to queue with new players. Just like in ground pvp, many players prefer to group with friends, and some do it in order to win.

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for everyone to start solo queueing. It's just what I tend to do out of habit. I wouldn't ask nor expect anyone to stop grouping in the interests of balance. I guess my message is: group...but group wisely.

 

That said, as a bit of a tangent: I played a few on TRE earlier today, and I was reminded of the impact a single player can have on the queue. Granted, the player I have in mind is Neutrinos, and there surely aren't a lot of Neutrinoses (sp?) zooming around. But I've seen that guy regularly swing the fortunes of an entire queue seemingly at will. I've watched him sit quietly under B in an Imperium (sometimes for an entire match), waiting out a 1000-100 3-cap win...then immediately go pub side and almost singlehandedly drag his team to victory. Or at worst, turn an inevitable stomp into a competitive match. No talk, no fanfare - he just notes the imbalance, and immediately moves to correct it as best he can. He does it all the time.

 

I know Neutrinos isn't the only guy who does this. But we need more folks with that mindset, grouped or not.

[Greezt]

Just to be clear, I wasn't advocating for everyone to start solo queueing. It's just what I tend to do out of habit. I wouldn't ask nor expect anyone to stop grouping in the interests of balance. I guess my message is: group...but group wisely.

 

That said, as a bit of a tangent: I played a few on TRE earlier today, and I was reminded of the impact a single player can have on the queue. Granted, the player I have in mind is Neutrinos, and there surely aren't a lot of Neutrinoses (sp?) zooming around. But I've seen that guy regularly swing the fortunes of an entire queue seemingly at will. I've watched him sit quietly under B in an Imperium (sometimes for an entire match), waiting out a 1000-100 3-cap win...then immediately go pub side and almost singlehandedly drag his team to victory. Or at worst, turn an inevitable stomp into a competitive match. No talk, no fanfare - he just notes the imbalance, and immediately moves to correct it as best he can. He does it all the time.

 

I know Neutrinos isn't the only guy who does this. But we need more folks with that mindset, grouped or not.

 

Ahh. My reply wasn't actually directed at you, but at Reyin. I though his objective here is to convince people that they should even out the groups, and I'm certain that people who group for wins won't be reasoned with.

 

I guess plural for neutrinos would be smws (or something). And yes, I think he has the right mindset, not to mention skillset. I haven't seen him around lately, though... But there are a few players on TRE who fly both sides. I had an amusing experience grouping up with M'bwun and another player and swapping back and forth, trying to end on the light side of the scales.

 

I don't really fly on harbinger all thay much, but can't four good players be found that are willing to even out the odds?

[SithAceI]

I can only speak for myself and have refrained from comments.

 

Here I go lol.

 

I have read this entire thread and mostly agree with all the points. Like I said tho I can only speak for myself. I can and do solo q, when I do and have little to no back up I get focused almost out of the game. This doesn't bother me per say other than I understand I should never be left alone to do what I can do.

 

I group up mostly to fly with friends and a little back up so I can breath a little hehe. I get asked to group and ask to group frequently. As anyone who really knows me I fly with everyone and leave the BS/politics etc. to others. I will pick up anyone who wants to fly with me from a new guy to the most stacked team you can produce at any one time. I really don't care for singling out for individual players to be or get focused. Drives me kinda batty. On one hand any attention I get I consider flattery and the other a little grief when its one or two dudes who go way out there way to get to me.

 

So I tend to group more than solo q.

 

As far as the shuffle goes it does happen all the time. Not really a problem per say. You can not control when, why, or how a person swaps sides. Its just personnel preference. Keeping the teams equal on both sides is something that can be done only with all involved in one voice channel to sync the q from both sides...

Even then the matchmaking can and will screw this up. Its not guaranteed and when the sync doesn't work somebody will be rofl stomped.

 

To put it short there is really nothing we can do to make the game more enjoyable for all the people period. So keep q'ing and keep playing how you all seem fit to play and let the BS go. Happy flying!

[WiseStranger]

Ahh. My reply wasn't actually directed at you, but at Reyin. I though his objective here is to convince people that they should even out the groups, and I'm certain that people who group for wins won't be reasoned with.

 

I guess plural for neutrinos would be smws (or something). And yes, I think he has the right mindset, not to mention skillset. I haven't seen him around lately, though... But there are a few players on TRE who fly both sides. I had an amusing experience grouping up with M'bwun and another player and swapping back and forth, trying to end on the light side of the scales.

 

I don't really fly on harbinger all thay much, but can't four good players be found that are willing to even out the odds?

 

Sort of a long answer to the questions you raise here:

 

There are people who log on and get an invite from their friends and they que for GSF.

Those people just fly together because they want to fly together. Not because they all cherry picked each other as elite pilots. Are there pilot groups that are all on the elite level with mastered ships? Yes. Are all pilot groups like that? No!

Those pilots have fun regardless if they win or lose. What matters is the process. If you can't enjoy the process and the aftermath you should not step into a PvP realm.

Have I been on both sides of this coin? Yes. I was flying with friends against people who were solo and flying solo against people who were flying with their friends. Do I have the right to go and complain that they can't play together, because it gives them an unfair advantage? No! They play together because they want to play together.

Complaining about multiple premades on the same side is foolish. Often enough those groups are fighting each other in wargames. There will be only one winner. There are no possible way in the game were both teams win. Those multiple premades don't complain about facing each other. They just do and get as much as they can from the process. Being qued on the same side doesn't guarantee that you will end up on the same team or in the same match.

 

The games are normally won not by the team with the best pilot, but by the team that has the least number of defective pilots (regardless of the number of games they played or number of mastered ships they have). We all had games where your team is so bad they end up at the bottom of the scoreboard at the end of the match (regardless of the category). There are only so many deficient pilots you can compensate for.

 

I've seen SeCKSEgai on multiple toons on Harbinger when I visit. Most times you want to put him on ignore so you're not bothered by continuous whining emitted by this pilot on /GSF. Instead of getting a team together and fielding it, he whines. Instead of getting better, he whines. When I see him on my team I don't go "Yea! I can rely on this guy!". It's more like: "At least it's not a total noob".

 

If he cares about balance and community so much, he should start his own guild/group that he regularly flies with and maybe even get a voice chat. Though I don't think he will have any success with all of his complaints. People tend to group with people who they like. You can't constantly tolerate someone who irritates the hell out of you. After a while you get fed up and you'd rather play with someone else.

 

So SeCKSEgai should either step up or shut up. Complaining on the forums or in /GSF accomplishes nothing.

[caederon]

Even then the matchmaking can and will screw this up. Its not guaranteed and when the sync doesn't work somebody will be rofl stomped.

It's not an issue when there are a mix of one-sided matches and competitive matches. You're right that the matchmaker guarantees nothing (outside of a general abundance of comical team arrangements).

 

The problem comes in when it's a long, uninterrupted string of beatings delivered from one side to the other. Putting some effort towards faction balancing isn't such an onerous thing to ask, is it? It doesn't require voice chat to get at least one decent group per side when things are clearly imbalanced.

 

So SeCKSEgai should either step up or shut up. Complaining on the forums or in /GSF accomplishes nothing.

That's a really unkind and lousy attitude to take. At least he's trying to change a bad situation. Yes, it is a bad situation when severs get distinctly one-sided or develop destructive tendencies.

 

Competitive matches are a good thing. Long strings of one-sided routs are not.

 

Despon

[WiseStranger]

It's not an issue when there are a mix of one-sided matches and competitive matches. You're right that the matchmaker guarantees nothing (outside of a general abundance of comical team arrangements).

 

The problem comes in when it's a long, uninterrupted string of beatings delivered from one side to the other. Putting some effort towards faction balancing isn't such an onerous thing to ask, is it? It doesn't require voice chat to get at least one decent group per side when things are clearly imbalanced.

 

 

That's a really unkind and lousy attitude to take. At least he's trying to change a bad situation. Yes, it is a bad situation when severs get distinctly one-sided or develop destructive tendencies.

 

Competitive matches are a good thing. Long strings of one-sided routs are not.

 

Despon

 

It's not unkind and lousy. It's annoyed and truthful.

 

There is a better way of achieving balance.

 

It's called being proactive, getting the teams together, going to the other side and nicely asking specific people if they would like to join you on the other side to even things out.

 

I don't think anyone wants to hear complaints about how unfair a match was for someone because they solo qued and were teamed with 7 noobs.

[SeCKSEgai]

It's not unkind and lousy. It's annoyed and truthful.

 

There is a better way of achieving balance.

 

It's called being proactive, getting the teams together, going to the other side and nicely asking specific people if they would like to join you on the other side to even things out.

 

I don't think anyone wants to hear complaints about how unfair a match was for someone because they solo qued and were teamed with 7 noobs.

 

If we really want to be truthful -

 

If people weren't stacking teams for the win, the fourth of fifth match of total dominance would indicate that there are no pilots available - otherwise they would have NATURALLY formed a group in response to a premade group, because that's what we do.

 

When people are asked POLITELY to swap over no one does.

This has gone on for weeks, its not like polite wasn't the first option, after all I enjoyed flying with these people too for a long while. The only thing that changed was that I started to make an effort to make things competitive again and instead of mixing it up like we used to do winning became more important.

 

You can't say you care about the community than roflstomp over and over making no effort to even things out when the other side can't field competition. There are only so many veteran pilots left and people tend to play at different times.

 

Btw, you feel so comfortable insulting me yet I have no clue who you are. It's so easy to insult someone when there's no consequence. It's like people didn't think I'd thought this through and had no idea of the bridges that would be burned. I was on friendly terms with most of the regulars before deciding that enough was enough.

 

You say that I constantly complain - yet this has been building up for weeks and you clearly never bothered to see what was being said by other people having to deal with the same experience.

 

I mean, I could do what the majority of the swtor populace does - and stop participating completely - but I was BEING PROACTIVE in attempted to address the community in a POLITE way (hey isn't that what you said should be done right) and instead of people taking a second look it became an us vs them.

 

The other night someone said they would spawn camp and tri-cap as long as he/she could do it. That person said that if server dies for it so be it.. That's far from the mentality we used to have as a community.

 

But hey, just keep telling me how whiny I am, how I whine instead of getting better, because if I'm the villain then it justifies your actions.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SeCKSEgai

[WiseStranger]

If we really want to be truthful -

 

If people weren't stacking teams for the win, the fourth of fifth match of total dominance would indicate that there are no pilots available - otherwise they would have NATURALLY formed a group in response to a premade group, because that's what we do.

 

When people are asked POLITELY to swap over no one does.

This has gone on for weeks, its not like polite wasn't the first option, after all I enjoyed flying with these people too for a long while. The only thing that changed was that I started to make an effort to make things competitive again and instead of mixing it up like we used to do winning became more important.

 

You can't say you care about the community than roflstomp over and over making no effort to even things out when the other side can't field competition. There are only so many veteran pilots left and people tend to play at different times.

 

Btw, you feel so comfortable insulting me yet I have no clue who you are. It's so easy to insult someone when there's no consequence. It's like people didn't think I'd thought this through and had no idea of the bridges that would be burned. I was on friendly terms with most of the regulars before deciding that enough was enough.

 

You say that I constantly complain - yet this has been building up for weeks and you clearly never bothered to see what was being said by other people having to deal with the same experience.

 

I mean, I could do what the majority of the swtor populace does - and stop participating completely - but I was BEING PROACTIVE in attempted to address the community in a POLITE way (hey isn't that what you said should be done right) and instead of people taking a second look it became an us vs them.

 

The other night someone said they would spawn camp and tri-cap as long as he/she could do it. That person said that if server dies for it so be it.. That's far from the mentality we used to have as a community.

 

But hey, just keep telling me how whiny I am, how I whine instead of getting better, because if I'm the villain then it justifies your actions.

 

Look for the roots of the problem within. People who you asked must have already disliked you. You should ask people who are friends with you or at least those who respect you.

 

You can't please everyone. Nobody can. Guild/Friends are also a community. So who do you cater to? GSF as a whole or people who you know and care about.

 

As for me knowing who you are and you not knowing who I am... It was your choice to post your every alt in your signature, so it's on you. I didn't really care about In Game You. My reply would have been almost the same even if I had no clue about your character names. I speak my experiences and things that I said to myself in the past. It's PvP, can't handle it - go PvE/RP or play single player games. There you're the hero. In MMOs you're one of many, no special treatment until you've earned it.

 

Instead of bottling up for weeks you could have privately invited people to play with you on the opposite side. But based on how you post on the forums, I'm pretty sure it went something like this:

 

SeCKSEgai - [rage] You've beaten up the team on noobs I was on 50 to 10 and you spawn camped us.

GSF pilot - Ok, sorry about that, but should we just let your team sit on the spawn until the timer runs out?

SeCKSEgai - Yes you should have and you should disband your group. It's unfair that you have friends you group with.

GSF pilot - Really? I don't think so.

SeCKSEgai - And you should come with me to the other side to even things out.

GSF pilot - Really? I don't feel like being in the same group with you.

 

This not the way to get people on your side. Proactive is not the same as complaining all the time.

 

As for "threatening" to leave GSF as many did before you... You know what they say: have fun with your next thing, may it bring you the peace of mind you seek.

 

I play on Harbinger from time to time. I win some, I lose some, but I see no reason to complain about premades ruining my fun, because my fun comes from the process of GSFing.

Edited March 1, 2016 by WiseStranger

[Greezt]

I agree with Reyin on everything. The only difference is, I don't think the problematic people will change. So the only solution is to change your own gameplay to counter theirs. Instead of asking people to drop their faceroll premades, get a premade of your own and beat them a couple of times. If they swap sides, swap too. If there are no pilots on who are willing to join you on this, I'd say this is a pretty deep community problem on harbinger.

 

If you're against premades on principle, that's another problem, because if they won't change and you won't too, we're at an impasse.

[Lendul]

I agree with Reyin on everything. The only difference is, I don't think the problematic people will change. So the only solution is to change your own gameplay to counter theirs. Instead of asking people to drop their faceroll premades, get a premade of your own and beat them a couple of times. If they swap sides, swap too. If there are no pilots on who are willing to join you on this, I'd say this is a pretty deep community problem on harbinger.

 

If you're against premades on principle, that's another problem, because if they won't change and you won't too, we're at an impasse.

^This

[SeCKSEgai]

I had a long chat with some of the folks with Gone Sithing. We still more or less ended at an impasse, but at least the anger and frustration was alleviated and things are amicable again as far as I can tell.

 

Wisestranger apparently isn't a regular and a few months ago I would probably have his mindset to, and if someone made any sort of complaint I'd just write it off as that person being whiny.

 

After that chat I did realize that the only reason it had boiled over to the point I felt it necessary to complain was that it's already been like ground for a while. But as I was doing the harby shuffle like everyone else it didn't occur to me till later.

 

While I was upset that people weren't making an effort to make things more competitive, the flip side of that is I don't have the right to dictate how people should play, nor play the guilt trip. I stopped doing the harby shuffle not because someone told me, but of my own realization of the state of things (and general boredom).

 

In other words, just like I saw it for myself, I needed to just let others see it too for themselves.

 

People have always found things to complain about in GSF, and in the end it tends to be a moot point. Ground Pvp is the way it is because the community allowed it to become such. People will do what they want, at the expense of others, or for the sake of others. The state of GSF is decided by the community. People are entitled to run their groups. When the opposition isn't willing or available the queue dies. People can decide to split their groups, motivate others to queue or wait it out.

 

Most of the populace has already decided that not queuing at all is the best option (as seen in GSF's lack of popularity and development). I know I don't hold that against them at all, and I'm sure I've blown up more than enough ships to play a role in that. If I can't blame the populace for distate of the mode, It's not fair of me to be holding it against people who still manage to enjoy GSF despite disagreements in philosophy.

 

But I think I'll take the insults from WiseStranger and hold it against him since I've never been fond of folks who like to spew insults from anonymity anyway

[WiseStranger]

good stuff

 

I see that whatever you did, produced some interesting results.

 

You can hold a grudge against me, I don't mind. Consider it to be a bitter medicine of sorts. Anyone on the wild pastures of the internet has the right to announce who they are or keep it to themselves. You made your choice, I don't have to follow your steps. I visit Harbinger, play my daily/weekly and move on as I do with other servers. I don't require extra attention. I just enjoy the process. It's PvP, you win some and you lose some, you can't control it unless you control everyone on your team and on the opposing team.

 

GSF is going through natural life-cycle of a game or a part of a game (Story, Heroics/Flashpoints/Operations, New Planets/Zones, PvP, etc.)

 

When it's released everyone wants to try it.

 

When everyone tried it and compared what they got with what they dreamed about they split

First group - it's not what I wanted - I'm out.

Second group - it's not what I expected, but it's acceptable - I'm sticking with it for whatever reason.

Third group - it's what I wanted - I'm all in.

 

After a while Second group splits again

Those who's reasons disappeared, go to the First group.

Those who's reasons got into the territory of an acquired taste join the Third group.

Those who's reasons remain - stay in downsized Second group

 

Ultimately only the Third group ensures that a game or its part keeps on going as eventually Second group does a complete split between First and Third. This Third group is generally very small. They are the enthusiasts that are willing to set up private servers and potentially modify code to fix bugs, do things to improve or at least preserve the game/mode. None of us have access to GSF part of SWTOR to set it up as a stand alone game with separate revenue stream spent only on GSF to cover at least operating costs and maybe some development costs.

 

The only group of people who can ensure a steady inflow of new people into the system and ultimately their retention is the development team. They are the only people who can actually do something. Unfortunately the meatbags occupying the place of GSF development team provided us with no updates for almost 2 years.

 

Bottom line: if there is nothing that you can really do to change the system - enjoy what you have while you have it so you don't have regrets when it's gone.

Edited March 1, 2016 by WiseStranger

[ShallowHal]

Caught up on the thread. Here are my thoughts.

 

First of all, I think it's important to remember that all games remain interesting when two things are true.

 

The first is that it's not so easy that it becomes boring. This is the state of most of the PVE in the game right now. You play for the story, but once you know what happens in the story, the gameplay itself doesn't remain interesting and so you don't play through the story again because you already know what happens.

 

The second is that it's not so difficult that it becomes frustrating. We wouldn't challenge a professional basketball player to a game of one on one because it wouldn't be competitive, but maybe we would challenge one of our friends that is at a similar skill level because we have the possibility of competiting against them

 

It's abundantly clear that there is a portion of the GSF population that cares more about their winning percentage (a stat that no one sees unless you proudly post it in chat as I've seen done many times) than they do about the matches themselves being compelling. I don't think those folks shy away from a tough match and may even welcome it, but their whole view of the game is completely Darwinian. The strong survive and the weak perish. There's really no way to convince those people to change their behavior. They will do what they do.

 

For those of us who really value having more competitive matches, it's going to be up to us to try and even things out. I'm not remotely at Reiyn's level as a pilot and when the match is very one-sided, I don't put up much in the way of stats, but I generally understand what I'm supposed to be doing and which ship is appropriate for which situation and many of my alts now have 3 or more mastered meta ships. And I will happily respond to a request to switch factions to try to create some balance if asked.

 

I hope those of you who value balance and competitive matches that come down to the last few seconds will join us and help balance things out. Generally, I think this is the best subcommunity going in this game and I would like to see the game remain interesting for people.