General Request for Broader Content and Smarter Release Schedule.

[Max_Killjoy]

I hope this is taken as a constructive suggestion to make the game better for as many players as possible.

 

Here it goes.

 

A game like SWTOR needs a mix of players, a broad base of different sorts of customers, and the content for any one of those sorts cannot become the sole focus or be at the detriment of any other content. This includes both the current focus on KotFE, and the various demands that some players make for PvP, endgame Ops, or something else, to always be first in line.

 

Solo / class content, story content, RP, PvP, Ops/raids, etc, etc... all of it needs some attention, but attention that doesn't screw with other content. (The classic but by no means only example being constant PvP "balance" complaints leading to a never-ending ping-pong of changes to the classes.)

 

If it were up to me, we'd see KotFE come out with a new chapter every other month, and the alternate months would see some sort of non-KotFE / non-gated content and update. PvP, Ops, etc. Additionally, the "fix" and "update" patches should come out 2 weeks either way from the "content" patches of any sort -- stop releasing new Chapters or new Ops/Warzones/whatever at the same time that major changes are made to the guts of the game. Keep them entirely separate. Players are very frustrated with having to wait for patches to the patches in order to get the new content they've been looking forward to because a mechanical change causes new issues that need to be fixed, or errors in patching or logging in.

 

It would end up looking like this:

 

Week 1 - KotFE chapter

Week 2 - minor fixes to above

Week 3 - major update patch, including chipping away at the long-term bugs list

Week 4 - minor fixes to above

Week 5 - Ops / PvP / other content (one thing, not all things)

Week 6 - minor fixes to above

Week 7 - major update patch, including chipping away at the long-term bugs list

Week 8 - minor fixes to above

Week 9 - KotFE chapter

Etc, and so forth...

 

Furthermore, old content that has problems MUST get fixed and cleaned up. To those of us playing the game, it seems that Bioware keeps making this mistake where a type of content is released with problems, people stop

playing it, and it is assumed that the lack of participation is because "not enough players want that sort of content", rather than realizing that it's because the implementation wasn't up to snuff. See, space combat PvE, and GSF.

 

Thank you.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[DarthEnrique]

Yeah Bioware does seem to not care about a lot of things or pre-existing bugs such as the one with Revan's Mask, the black eyes in Lord Grantham's estate, etc. They also don't seem to care for equality for all discipline specs in Warzones such as nerfing Lightning Sorcerers and making them pretty much easy kills in a warzones and so they aren't used as much, everyone has the right to choose their discipline and have equal balance and chances and abilities to do damage, or the rare chances of relics working when they never do.

 

It's like they have no priority to fix old bugs and nerf disciplines, etc. how does this makes us feel like we're going to get any better quality of new stuff that isn't bugged or enjoying our discipline, etc. if they can't fix all issues or get better balance?

Edited February 20, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[Max_Killjoy]

That is part of the problem, and I think we can see the effects -- it's hard for Bioware's customers to have much optimism that things will be fixed if they're broken, or that the thing they're enjoying today won't be fundamentally changed tomorrow.

[Max_Killjoy]

At any rate, I thought this would be more constructive than the way some people rage about things.

[Max_Killjoy]

FInal bump.

[JennyFlynn]

Just read through this since you linked to it elsewhere; very solid post and a far better approach to address concerns and genuine balance.

 

My personal main concern is story, it's truly the one thing I care for most in the game but I wouldn't mind the extra month wait for a new chapter if it meant the overall populous received updates for their preferred aspects of the game more frequently.

 

The bug fixes though.. I'd be so appreciative if they could take a moment to stop fiddling with new content and instead first fix all the old bugs and broken things. It comes across as careless and sloppy to let those issues lie around for such an extended period of time.

[VegasTheLost]

Bump.

[IanArgent]

I'd love this; except that it's completely impractical unless the non-story content simply recycles mechanics. Balancing multi-player mechanics takes longer than 8-16 weeks if you have to start with a blank sheet of paper each time. As it is, the one piece of "new mechanics" content they attempted to bring us (Eternal Champion) overshot its delivery date by 2 months (and we don't know when development started; it could have started prior to 4.0 dropping, at the latest it started in January). And they can't job out balancing to the PTS, because using the PTS to tune content will likely end up with the content overtuned; because the PTS population will tend towards the harder-core. They could more quickly generate content by recycling bosses in a mix-and-match type method, but how much will raiders accept/enjoy that?

 

PvP content is easier to tune, because you don't have to adjust the "enemy" mechanics, just the rules of the game, hence the relatively quick development cycle of the new warzone and arena.

 

Also, any new ops are either going to have to slot into the difficulty chain "harder than" Rav/ToS, or not be acceptable to progression raiders who've "beaten" those two operation. If they're more difficult than Rav/ToS, that's a fraction of the raiding community, which is itself a fraction of the population. If they come in the middle of the existing difficulty chain, then that screwed up the progression vs storyline (the timewise earlier ops are mechanically "softer" than the timewise later ones, no?); and gives nothing to the progression raiders

 

All this assumes that the model of 4-8 people spending 1-2 hours straight in combat for a chance at boss loot at the end is viable for today's player population. Example: my wife absolutely will not join any group activity right now because she's done the Tatooine WB and the Rakghoul instanced Ops boss, and both times, spent 15 minutes in frustrating combat to get absolutely nothing from either experience, because someone else (healers/tanks) fell down on the job and she died and couldn't get in on the loot roll. I've done Dread Palace twice now (once with guild and once as pure PuG), and in both cases I got nothing directly worthwhile for the time investment from the run-through. (I got the checkmark for the Dread Masters mission chain both times (the chain was reset with 4.0), and from the second run a pair of "Free" Tank 216 OHs for a character I run as a DPS, so it wasn't entirely a wasted evening, but I could probably have gotten the necessary towards a 216 OH for DPS via crystals if I'd spent the time doing Heroics instead). IT's all very well and good to say "well, join a guild," but one - I can't commit to a regularly-scheduled ops team at this point in my life, and two - how do I find a guild without pugging, and without those guildmembers pugging?

 

I agree there needs to be more "must-group" content. I disagree that a new operation is what is needed. We need group content that will feed people into the existing ops chain, and the rewards for the existing ops and whatever new content comes in needs to not be just a lottery ticket for a chance at gear. Random drops have their place for cosmetic/vanity items, but not mechanical items.

[VegasTheLost]

Also, any new ops are either going to have to slot into the difficulty chain "harder than" Rav/ToS, or not be acceptable to progression raiders who've "beaten" those two operation. If they're more difficult than Rav/ToS, that's a fraction of the raiding community, which is itself a fraction of the population. If they come in the middle of the existing difficulty chain, then that screwed up the progression vs storyline (the timewise earlier ops are mechanically "softer" than the timewise later ones, no?); and gives nothing to the progression raiders.

 

Sorry for not reflecting for your entire comment, however I can agree with you. And this is just to make sure that IF a new raid comes out, it don't have to be harder than Rav/ToS, but if the new ones will be on the same difficulty level(probably pre-nref Rav/ToS), I think a lot of folks would be fine with it. If it's harder than it's better, but if it 'just' new and are on the same level, all is good I guess.

[IanArgent]

Sorry for not reflecting for your entire comment, however I can agree with you. And this is just to make sure that IF a new raid comes out, it don't have to be harder than Rav/ToS, but if the new ones will be on the same difficulty level(probably pre-nref Rav/ToS), I think a lot of folks would be fine with it. If it's harder than it's better, but if it 'just' new and are on the same level, all is good I guess.

 

Even if it's on the same par as Rav/ToS - that's still more difficult (in theory) than the entire rest of the Ops content but those two - you have the same problem of targeting at a fraction of a fraction of the population. If the population of the game, today, was plurality progression raiders; that would be one thing; but if it was, I doubt we'd have seen the gap in raid content.

[Max_Killjoy]

The PvP / Ops / Other content part of the suggested cycle is an OR, not an AND.

 

That is, new PvP might come up every few months, a new Operation would come up every several months, etc -- but not all at once, just one each time the cycle hits that point.

 

If that's a new FP, or a new set of non-KotFE class missions, or a new Operation, or something for PvP, or whatever -- just SOMETHING for some segment of the playerbase, something that's not locked inside KotFE and broadens the content for the overall playerbase.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[VegasTheLost]

The PvP / Ops / Other content part of the suggested cycle is an OR, not an AND.

 

That is, new PvP might come up every few months, a new Operation would come up every several months, etc -- but not all at once, just one each time the cycle hits that point.

 

If that's a new FP, or a new set of non-KotFE class missions, or a new Operation, or something for PvP, or whatever -- just SOMETHING for some segment of the playerbase, something that's not locked inside KotFE and broadens the content for the overall playerbase.

 

I got this. That's why I bumped. This thread you made is truly constructive and I can agree with it. And personally I would be happy if we could get 1-2 PROPER flashpoints, not this Star Fortress thing. 3-5 bosses(including mini bosses) and good half an hour to an hour max flashpoint.

 

So I hope others will bump this thread and maybe it reaches a goal.

[IanArgent]

The PvP / Ops / Other content part of the suggested cycle is an OR, not an AND.

 

That is, new PvP might come up every few months, a new Operation would come up every several months, etc -- but not all at once, just one each time the cycle hits that point.

 

If that's a new FP, or a new set of non-KotFE class missions, or a new Operation, or something for PvP, or whatever -- just SOMETHING for some segment of the playerbase, something that's not locked inside KotFE and broadens the content for the overall playerbase.

 

I realize that - I was addressing specifically the expectation that an FP or Ops would happen at anything close to a regular schedule. I'm not even sure that a new op will ever happen again. Though I'm surprised at how tediously long a Star Fortress is; at least one can be played solo. Look at how long it is taking them to release the Eternal Championship. That's roughly 2 Ops/FPs worth of combats (including bonus bosses). The balancing concerns are slightly different because they have to tune it to work with a player+companion instead of one or more Tank/Healer/2xDPS teams. And the EtChamp is accessible to anyone who does single player content. an FP requires grouping up with 4 people (so more friction and drama), and an Op 8 or 16 (yet more friction and drama, plus the issues with difficulty curve I mentioned earlier).

 

I wish I had a good answer for group content, but I'm not sure that game is worth the candle any more.

[Max_Killjoy]

I realize that - I was addressing specifically the expectation that an FP or Ops would happen at anything close to a regular schedule. I'm not even sure that a new op will ever happen again. Though I'm surprised at how tediously long a Star Fortress is; at least one can be played solo. Look at how long it is taking them to release the Eternal Championship. That's roughly 2 Ops/FPs worth of combats (including bonus bosses). The balancing concerns are slightly different because they have to tune it to work with a player+companion instead of one or more Tank/Healer/2xDPS teams. And the EtChamp is accessible to anyone who does single player content. an FP requires grouping up with 4 people (so more friction and drama), and an Op 8 or 16 (yet more friction and drama, plus the issues with difficulty curve I mentioned earlier).

 

I wish I had a good answer for group content, but I'm not sure that game is worth the candle any more.

 

I had to at least say something -- push this out to Bioware via email and PM, get it on the suggestion forums, link to it when relevant -- for my own peace of mind. At least now, even if nothing changes, I can tell myself that I tried as much as a fan/player can reasonably try. Instead of just ranting about what I didn't like, I had to say "This is what would makes things better for all of us".

[IanArgent]

I had to at least say something -- push this out to Bioware via email and PM, get it on the suggestion forums, link to it when relevant -- for my own peace of mind. At least now, even if nothing changes, I can tell myself that I tried as much as a fan/player can reasonably try. Instead of just ranting about what I didn't like, I had to say "This is what would makes things better for all of us".

 

It's a great list. And I do think we need more group PvE content (the HSFs are not enough). I just want something more PuG-friendly and that has a smaller minimum time commitment.

[Jedi_riches]

While I kind of agree with a better timetable, especially with bug fixes I think that the story chapters being every other month would in fact be too long in between chapters, try reading a chapter of a book, put it down for 8 weeks and then try to read the next chapter.

 

Story content like this is already being pushed in my opinion at being every month, remembering multiple choices, who you romanced, what you did etc story needs to be monthly at max or released as SOR or 1-9 blocks but again if its a continuing storyline you risk people loosing interest in the story before the next one drops.

[VegasTheLost]

Frankly I already lost interest how will the story end. I really don't care at this point, I will only do the following chapters just to do something. And I'm only playing KotFE with 1 toon. With Max's timetable in between 2 chapters there would be at leas something else to look for. I get that a lot of people are only interested in the story and the current schedule/timetable is good for them. I get it. But is it good for the whole population of the game? Hardly. Edited April 13, 2016 by VegasTheLost
Type-o

[Jedi_riches]

I get that a lot of people are only interested in the story and the current schedule/timetable is good for them. I get it. But is it good for the whole population of the game? Hardly.

 

I get that, but nobody really knows the actual numbers on this except Bioware, I can only speak for myself when I say that there would only be recycling old stuff for me if they implemented max's idea, as none of the items in the alternate month interests me so in effect every other month would be 'none content' and that won't keep my interest forever. I also get that my view may not me a majority view either.

 

I'm not going to debate if Bioware's going in the right direction or not because nobody has all the right figures to draw any sort of conclusion.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Jedi_riches

[VegasTheLost]

Bump.

[Argonloris]

Your idea of what the cadence for content should be would work........if you were harder on the devs then EA already is. The amount of coding and content design while constantly working on bugs in the system would burn out the staff pretty quickly.

 

The reason only a few bugs are patched out at a time with the story content is because there is a lot of internal testing that has to be done to make sure things don't become even worse. your method means that the 60-80 hour work week that most of the team has to deal with once a month during the crunch of a patch week becomes a continuous thing.

 

The reason the current chapter content can be pushed out as fast as it is now is because it's only expanding a bit on areas that are already in game, with mechanics that are already in game and voice work that was most likely recorded during the initial launch.

 

What you are asking them to do with a new op or pvp setting every other month is design new mechanics in a new area with at least mostly new assets while recording new dialog while still making sure that the story team has all that they need to continue doing their work.

 

In short, you have no idea the amount of effort that goes into making a quality game.

[IanArgent]

Your idea of what the cadence for content should be would work........if you were harder on the devs then EA already is. The amount of coding and content design while constantly working on bugs in the system would burn out the staff pretty quickly.

 

The reason only a few bugs are patched out at a time with the story content is because there is a lot of internal testing that has to be done to make sure things don't become even worse. your method means that the 60-80 hour work week that most of the team has to deal with once a month during the crunch of a patch week becomes a continuous thing.

 

The reason the current chapter content can be pushed out as fast as it is now is because it's only expanding a bit on areas that are already in game, with mechanics that are already in game and voice work that was most likely recorded during the initial launch.

 

What you are asking them to do with a new op or pvp setting every other month is design new mechanics in a new area with at least mostly new assets while recording new dialog while still making sure that the story team has all that they need to continue doing their work.

 

In short, you have no idea the amount of effort that goes into making a quality game.

 

In all fairness, Max never struck me as clueless about the amount of effort that goes into the game as a whole. It didn't occur to me until the Eternal Championship was delayed exactly how much work goes into "mechanical" bosses like that, and ops and FP bosses; and to a lesser extent PvP maps. And I once did a stint in an MMO development shop (long ago, when I was young and poor.)

[Argonloris]

In all fairness, Max never struck me as clueless about the amount of effort that goes into the game as a whole. It didn't occur to me until the Eternal Championship was delayed exactly how much work goes into "mechanical" bosses like that, and ops and FP bosses; and to a lesser extent PvP maps. And I once did a stint in an MMO development shop (long ago, when I was young and poor.)

 

Part of my issue was with the suggestion of major group content so frequently. My main concern however was with the excessive patch suggestions. That is what makes it clear that Max doesn't have an idea of what goes on. There will always be bugs in large games. They have to many lines of code that have to interact to not have some spots where something will go wrong. Truthfully I think that considering the engine they are working with on this game we are lucky that we don't see more. To say let's do patches every week to fix everything show clear lack of thought on what it takes to make and sustain a game of this or any size.

[Max_Killjoy]

The actual patches are every other week, which isn't too far off their current schedule.

 

The between weeks are reserved for immediate fixes to things that came up in the biweekly scheduled patch -- if nothing comes up, no patch in the "off" weeks.

 

Notice also I didn't say "fix all the bugs in the game this week", I said "chip away at the list of bugs that have been around for a long time". Maybe one of those non-content patches includes fixing one of the broken companion missions (Ashara's Defiance, for example), and cleaning up a couple of the bad "stuck" spots that exist randomly in otherwise normal-looking areas of the planetary maps, and one of the glitchy Ops bosses. After that, there's not another dedicated bug patch for a month in my suggested cycle, right? I'm not asking them to fix everything at once, just to make a dedicated effort to keep fixing things on a regular basis.

 

The group/other content patches would be TWO months apart, and could include a lot of things -- some things not even tied into KotFE for those of us who aren't interested in it.

 

The KotFE patches would also be TWO months apart, and would give them time to test the content and make sure the story/choice flags are working, that the NPCs aren't saying things that make no damn sense, etc.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[IanArgent]

If I could decree that any of the bugs I'm responsible for as project manager were to be fixed to schedule, my day job would be a lot easier.

[VegasTheLost]

and cleaning up a couple of the bad "stuck" spots that exist randomly in otherwise normal-looking areas of the planetary maps

 

Just one example, Rishi. Couple of month old invisible wall just before a ramp. And I'm sure there is more than this, I just didn't ran into them so far.