Class re-balance

[Nelfrey]

So, if you guys fail to do any class re-balance in 4.2 on the classes that clearly need it, I'm sending everyone on the Combat Team an envelope full of glitter.

[ShadowTech]

I'll grant you that it's an amusing idea, but I doubt it's going to get you any real class balance. Just saying.

[DarthOvertone]

Pretty sure there is no PvP class balancing team, and therein lies the problem. The Dev team that does class balancing pretty much seems to focus entirely on the PvE-side of things, and more often than not, changes that worked out pretty good for PvE ended up being disastrous for PvP.

 

Anyway, PvP has ONE dedicated Dev that I'm aware of - Alex Modny. And I'm not even sure Alex is still around since we haven't heard from him for about a year or so.

[Nelfrey]

Pretty sure there is no PvP class balancing team, and therein lies the problem. The Dev team that does class balancing pretty much seems to focus entirely on the PvE-side of things, and more often than not, changes that worked out pretty good for PvE ended up being disastrous for PvP.

 

Anyway, PvP has ONE dedicated Dev that I'm aware of - Alex Modny. And I'm not even sure Alex is still around since we haven't heard from him for about a year or so.

 

Well after 4 years of screw ups your expectations get real low

[alexsamma]

Yes, please nerf mercs.

 

/thread

Edited February 13, 2016 by alexsamma

[Kazz_Devlin]

Could not agree more but not likely to happen BIOWARE has no concept on how to balance the classes which is plainly evident when you see Jug classes doin insane DPS and having insane defense vs other DPS classes just breaks the standard Tank, DPS, heal template. Another words Bioware is completely fine with classes that would be considered feather weights or middle weights taking on hvy weights they just don't see the GROSS imbalance nor the fact that this is NOT FUN for those that choose to play said low weight classes. At not time ever should Tanks be able to to produce enough DPS to beat pure DPS classes. Heals should not ever be able to beat pure DPS either through DPS use or by DOTS especially sense some classes lack any means of healing themselves.

 

all things being equal

DPS vs DPS =TIE

DPS vs TANK= DPS WIN

DPS vs HEALS= DPS WIN

DPS vs a TANK and a HEALER= TIE

DPS vs a TANK and a DPS= TANK and a DPS WIN

 

Following shouldn't even be in game but if they are:

 

DPS vs Hybrid (TANK/DPS)= DPS WIN (you are not a full tank nor a full DPS and as such should not be able to survive a pure DPS classes burst period!

DPS vs Hybrid (HEAL/DPS)= DPS win (you are not a full Heal Spec nor a full DPS and as such should not be able to survive a pure DPS classes burst period!)

 

Understand if you choose to play a tank class your job is to absorb/mitigate dmg and keep healers & other classes alive! Now I have no issues with the devs making this a more involved roll perhaps by channeling abilities or a series of abilities so as to make the class a challenge to play and even fun such as Jedi battle meditation perhaps they could also produce buffs/debuffs the devs could be innovative here and come up with some really cool things which would entice people to play these classes that said very little to no DPS should ever be produced it is outside the scope of the class.

 

Understand if you choose to play a Healing class your job is to heal dmg/remove DOTS not engage in combat with any other class that is outside the scope of the class.

 

Understand if you choose to play a DPS class your only job is to cause vast amounts of dmg and kill other classes not to be able to survive oodles of dmg (yeah I am talking about you Jugs) and do vast dps this is outside the scope of the class.

 

As long a heavy weight DPS classes exist the game will always be imbalanced and no fun to play for the lesser weighted classes.

 

Now to address possible problems such as stupid que system ques 4 healers or a combination tank healer or something along these lines. I have to possible solutions:

Change que system so this doesn't happen or

For the healers and tank classes create a dual role setup that would allow them to switch roles in a match. Of course the devs could make it one time per match deals or very long cool downs I leave the details up to them.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[ebbehhm]

Half the devs barely play enough to qualify as casual, they dont PvP as far as i know. And half of them play sorcs.

 

Anyways, who needs to invest in balance when they can just take all our money with fixed RNG on the CM.

 

Never will change, they do not care. How long have sorcs been imbalanced for? 3+ months. How many threads has there been on FotM imbalance? hundreds. What have the devs done? Nothing.

 

^^

 

Quality developing right there.

 

On the serious note, we either need to:

 

1. Buff up both merc and op heals to sorc equivalent, buff all DPS.

 

2. Nerf sorc healing, reduce immortal jugg damage output, reduce AP PT burst capability, nerf madness sorc dps output.

 

3. Return things to pre 4.0, minus AP PT.

 

4. Completely re-do classes and turn out like GW2.

 

Either way people wont be happy. And there will always bet FotM, just sorc is too much FotM or rather FotY.

 

Also, fix the *********** PvP matchmaking, make it cross server if you have to, but for the love of god EAWare, every other MMO did it, why cant you?

Edited February 13, 2016 by ebbehhm

[Kazz_Devlin]

Pretty sure there is no PvP class balancing team, and therein lies the problem. The Dev team that does class balancing pretty much seems to focus entirely on the PvE-side of things, and more often than not, changes that worked out pretty good for PvE ended up being disastrous for PvP.

 

Anyway, PvP has ONE dedicated Dev that I'm aware of - Alex Modny. And I'm not even sure Alex is still around since we haven't heard from him for about a year or so.

 

You are right Therein lies the problem. PVP is an after thought just like crafting err I mean replicating stock items or joke of a space sim. Perhaps the PVP community should BOYCOT PVP.

[jedcjedcjedc]

I <3 DPS

you have a very limited and biased view....

[Kazz_Devlin]

you have a very limited and biased view....

 

care to expound on that a bit? A bit vague.

[NuRhoPhi]

Could not agree more but not likely to happen BIOWARE has no concept on how to balance the classes which is plainly evident when you see Jug classes doin insane DPS and having insane defense vs other DPS classes just breaks the standard Tank, DPS, heal template. Another words Bioware is completely fine with classes that would be considered feather weights or middle weights taking on hvy weights they just don't see the GROSS imbalance nor the fact that this is NOT FUN for those that choose to play said low weight classes. At not time ever should Tanks be able to to produce enough DPS to beat pure DPS classes. Heals should not ever be able to beat pure DPS either through DPS use or by DOTS especially sense some classes lack any means of healing themselves.

 

all things being equal

DPS vs DPS =TIE

DPS vs TANK= DPS WIN

DPS vs HEALS= DPS WIN

DPS vs a TANK and a HEALER= TIE

DPS vs a TANK and a DPS= TANK and a DPS WIN

 

Following shouldn't even be in game but if they are:

 

DPS vs Hybrid (TANK/DPS)= DPS WIN (you are not a full tank nor a full DPS and as such should not be able to survive a pure DPS classes burst period!

DPS vs Hybrid (HEAL/DPS)= DPS win (you are not a full Heal Spec nor a full DPS and as such should not be able to survive a pure DPS classes burst period!)

 

Understand if you choose to play a tank class your job is to absorb/mitigate dmg and keep healers & other classes alive! Now I have no issues with the devs making this a more involved roll perhaps by channeling abilities or a series of abilities so as to make the class a challenge to play and even fun such as Jedi battle meditation perhaps they could also produce buffs/debuffs the devs could be innovative here and come up with some really cool things which would entice people to play these classes that said very little to no DPS should ever be produced it is outside the scope of the class.

 

Understand if you choose to play a Healing class your job is to heal dmg/remove DOTS not engage in combat with any other class that is outside the scope of the class.

 

Understand if you choose to play a DPS class your only job is to cause vast amounts of dmg and kill other classes not to be able to survive oodles of dmg (yeah I am talking about you Jugs) and do vast dps this is outside the scope of the class.

 

As long a heavy weight DPS classes exist the game will always be imbalanced and no fun to play for the lesser weighted classes.

 

Now to address possible problems such as stupid que system ques 4 healers or a combination tank healer or something along these lines. I have to possible solutions:

Change que system so this doesn't happen or

For the healers and tank classes create a dual role setup that would allow them to switch roles in a match. Of course the devs could make it one time per match deals or very long cool downs I leave the details up to them.

 

That's not how the rock-paper-scissors trinity works;

Burst DPS, Sustained DPS, Hybrid-tank, Tank, Healer:

Burst DPS vs Sustained DPS: depends, but advantage sustained.

Burst DPS vs tank: Tank

Burst dps vs Hybrid-Tank: tank.

Burst dps vs Healer: Burst Dps.

 

Sustained DPS vs Healer: Healer,

Sustained DPS vs Hybrid tank: Sustained dps

Sustained dps vs Tank: Sustained dps

 

Tank vs Hybrid tank: eh..

 

Or, the more simple:

Healer > Tank > DPS > Healer

 

For some reason, Bioware gave a -20% healing received debuff to the TANKS. Can't explain that.

And GL solo killing a sorc healer..

The reality is also that tanks don't have that many active abilities to reduce damage to a friendly target. Yes, taunts, cc, and Guard which is click and leave on for eternity.

A shield generator that crit bypasses, heavy armor but railshot gets 90% armor pen, ..

Can you blame tanks for picking dps gear at that point..

[JouerTue]

care to expound on that a bit? A bit vague.

 

if a dps would kill everything why anyone should play in a different role..why i should be unable to kill a bad dps just because i'm on a tank/heal role? or why should i die helpless on a healer just because a single dps decides to tunnel me?

1 heal > 1 dps

1 tank > 1 dps (this only during a period of time where tank cds are up)

those are main pillars of trinity system in pvp..every other solution like you proposed ( dps>all) turns pvp in dps race. no one out of a premade would roll a tank or a healer.

[Kazz_Devlin]

if a dps would kill everything why anyone should play in a different role..why i should be unable to kill a bad dps just because i'm on a tank/heal role? or why should i die helpless on a healer just because a single dps decides to tunnel me?

1 heal > 1 dps

1 tank > 1 dps (this only during a period of time where tank cds are up)

those are main pillars of trinity system in pvp..every other solution like you proposed ( dps>all) turns pvp in dps race. no one out of a premade would roll a tank or a healer.

 

Well I did address Tank role, do something innovative.... battle meditation which give a buff xx% improved healing or xx% more dps xx%DMG. Sense we're never getting rid of sorc bubble work it in to each tank spec immobile for duration of bubble has xxxx amount of hit-points allows % of attacks through so DPS can do some dmg to tanks but buys time to channel abilites, could have immunity to pushback as well when channeling. Channeling could be buffs or debuffs Devs could get creative have to make trade-off on which buffs one chooses to channel or perhaps have ability to channel several up to devs maybe allow stacking from other Tanks again up to devs, could spam taunts as we do now and Guard. Now exists a REASON to want to have a Tank even though he is not doing any DPS. Not to mention the fact that its already a part of the Star Wars story they did have battle meditation so use that.

 

Burst DPS vs Sustained DPS: depends, but advantage sustained. should be a tie just a different method of achieving same goals.

 

Why bother to roll a pure DPS class either sustained or burst? This setup makes them moot might as well have everyone tank/dps and you have everyone running around on jug toons oh wait we already have that avg Jug per match what 3-4

 

why should i die helpless on a healer just because a single dps decides to tunnel me? You act like this would be a quick few attacks and your dead. attrition OVERTIME DPS should win if you can't kite, stun, slow, root, evade till help arrives that's on you. Couple that with above concept for tanks now focus is split need to focus Tank and healer

Edited February 13, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin

[jauvtus]

Make crits shieldable, make Defense rating grant dodge chance againt yellow damage and hybrid tanks will die out in a sec.

[JouerTue]

i'm not saying obviously that now the game is balanced, because it's not, but unfortunately the support role has never been in the game and hardly will make it in the future. at the moment we've the fotm APPT and sorc heals, before it was hatred, before vigilance and OP healers, before was deception, before was rage/focus stacking, some class people will reroll in mass, is what devs throw us since start, imo is to compensate for the lack of content to keep people play, but always the counter is going premade or being good players..you'll loose in yolo if you are unlucky, but GR are mostly neutral with players being able to play more what they like than what is needed to win..regs meh, premade and you can play with any combo and still have positive results, Q solo playing the objective with a receptive group pays with any class since all have roots, stuns and knockbacks, just need to know how to use them.

[Lhancelot]

 

1. buff all DPS.

 

2. AP PT burst capability, nerf madness sorc dps output.

 

 

1. Not all dps need buffed up, just some.

 

2. AP/PT burst really isn't the biggest issue with the class now it's their stupid 2 hard stuns they get. That's really the only thing I see needing changed. Make carb a soft stun that breaks on damage imo.

 

If you don't like the output on madness sorcs (from their easy dot spread mechanic) then you got to give them some burst. Otherwise they need left alone. Their damage in totality is high, but is it very impactful? Not as much as some of the burstier classes.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think that one of the problems lies in the not that clear distinction between pure tanks and tank able classes in DPS role - I mean that pure tanks can use shields, but tank able specs shouldn't, imho, to draw an much clearer distinction between whsat a pure tank can do and what a "skantank" can do.

 

Right now, there are - imho - too many capabilities open for both = no clear distinction between both.

 

The concept of Disciples was quite successful - imho - on Hybrids in genberal - but in my opinion it didn't go far enough. Pure DPS Juggs shouldn't imho not have the ability to tank - because skantanks being able to tank marginalizes the tan's ability to tank, it makes it more or less worthless to play a pure tank, if a skanktank can put out good DPS AND tank at the same time !

 

Same goes for the pure Healer / DPS specs of healing capable classes, imho.

There is no clear border, no clear distinction between both.

Edited February 13, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[alexsamma]

If people are going to talk about balance they really need to identify what perspective they are commenting from.

 

If more people ran team ranked a lot of their balance concerns would totally shift.

 

Class balance is, in all honestly, one of the smallest issues with pvp in the game at the moment.

 

Biggest issues with pvp:

 

1: Lack of matchmaking in regs

 

2: Low population of active players

 

3: Large disparity between experienced/skilled players and new/less-skilled players

 

4: Player base is split due to lack of cross server, which heavily affects the three above

 

5: The existence of solo ranked creating the illusion of large class in-balance

 

6: Gimmicks such as dot spread, double carb, and tanks that have enough damage output to kill a dps/force a guard in team ranked/top dps in regs while still effectively tanking.

 

7: Stale content

 

8: Class balance (mainly weak merc and op healers, disparity in damage output among tanks, and powertechs having too much damage and utility).

 

A perfect example is that most people still think that mercs are fodder but in 4's they are actually considered to be extremely strong and relatively "tanky."

Edited February 13, 2016 by alexsamma

[Lhancelot]

If people are going to talk about balance they really need to identify what perspective they are commenting from.

 

If more people ran team ranked a lot of their balance concerns would totally shift.

 

Class balance is, in all honestly, one of the smallest issues with pvp in the game at the moment.

 

Biggest issues with pvp:

 

1: Lack of matchmaking in regs

 

2: Low population of active players

 

3: Large disparity between experienced/skilled players and new/less-skilled players

 

4: Player base is split due to lack of cross server, which heavily affects the three above

 

5: The existence of solo ranked creating the illusion of large class in-balance

 

6: Gimmicks such as dot spread, double carb, and tanks that have enough damage output to kill a dps/force a guard in team ranked/top dps in regs while still effectively tanking.

 

7: Stale content

 

8: Class balance (mainly weak merc and op healers, disparity in damage output among tanks, and powertechs having too much damage and utility).

 

A perfect example is that most people still think that mercs are fodder but in 4's they are actually considered to be extremely strong and relatively "tanky."

 

Mercs as in healing mercs, dps mercs or both are considered tanky in 4s? Just curious. also, I will assume you are talking healing mercs as being tanky, if so, can they manage to burst heal when needed in 4s? Can they manage to AoE heal if the other team is using lots of cleave/AoE dot spread etc.?

[alexsamma]

Mercs as in healing mercs, dps mercs or both are considered tanky in 4s? Just curious. also, I will assume you are talking healing mercs as being tanky, if so, can they manage to burst heal when needed in 4s? Can they manage to AoE heal if the other team is using lots of cleave/AoE dot spread etc.?

 

Dps mercs, healing mercs are still fubar.

[Scinald]

This thread is awesome. Everyone wants "balance" but it also shows that nobody can agree what it is.

[Lhancelot]

Dps mercs, healing mercs are still fubar.

 

lol ok. guess my healing commando will be in an indefinite suspension of inactivity then. Was hoping some new found strategy made them better or something heh.

[aristrokratie]

What I think should be the case (in a 1v1 scenario):

Dps vs tank: dps

tank vs healer: healer

Burst Dps vs healer: Over time the healer SHOULD be a ble to kill the dps via dots and stuff, if the dps lands a nice

stun+ burst dps can still win

Sustained dps vs healer: tie, the healer will not die but at the same time most sustained classes have enough selfheals

to survive the healer

Hybrid tanks should NOT exist and players need to be discouraged from playing these kinds of specs

 

 

The general balance needs:

-big buffs to merc survival and heals, buff to operative heals

-Phasewalk removed from sorcs and cd of force speed lowered to 20 seconds

-Carbonize becomes a softstun, no longer utility for 5 sec hardstun

 

Also buffs to:

-dps merc survivability, buff to dotspec

-Dot pt

-concealment damage

-lethality damage

-lightning sorc damage

(-rework of jugg defensives as they are op'd in regs and meh in arenas)optional and not that important

 

 

A lot needs to be done and tbh I don't think it will... before 5.0.

If they at least eliminated faction imbalance andadded at least a little matchmaking...

Edited February 13, 2016 by aristrokratie

[helpmewin]

Buff what i like to play, nerf everything else©. All what u will find in dis thread. Edited February 14, 2016 by helpmewin

[Kazz_Devlin]

If people are going to talk about balance they really need to identify what perspective they are commenting from.

 

If more people ran team ranked a lot of their balance concerns would totally shift.

 

Class balance is, in all honestly, one of the smallest issues with pvp in the game at the moment.

 

Biggest issues with pvp:

 

1: Lack of matchmaking in regs

 

2: Low population of active players

 

3: Large disparity between experienced/skilled players and new/less-skilled players

 

4: Player base is split due to lack of cross server, which heavily affects the three above

 

5: The existence of solo ranked creating the illusion of large class in-balance

 

6: Gimmicks such as dot spread, double carb, and tanks that have enough damage output to kill a dps/force a guard in team ranked/top dps in regs while still effectively tanking.

 

7: Stale content

 

8: Class balance (mainly weak merc and op healers, disparity in damage output among tanks, and powertechs having too much damage and utility).

 

A perfect example is that most people still think that mercs are fodder but in 4's they are actually considered to be extremely strong and relatively "tanky."

 

Actually i think it affects more than you think. Consider that #1,#2, #3, #4 are impacted by imbalance. Consider that Bioware is forcing people into PVP content in an attempt to draw in new blood and all this does is expose people to situations where it takes 3 classes to kill one other class resulting in either a complete and utter turn off or the player rolling said class so they can run around needing 3 people to kill them which ends in matches with 3-4 sorcs and 3-4 jugs hence the reason why we have #1, #2, #3. Where you to offer at least a semblance of balance you might actually be able to garner new blood into PVP.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Kazz_Devlin