Why are the non force users not suited for KOTFE?

[Wolfninjajedi]

Luke states that using the dark side or light is just a matter of preference and it's how those powers are used that define a Jedi. This is completely wrong considering in the books this is what Luke has to say on the subject..

 

"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."

 

The effort it takes a jedi or sith to blow away a bunch of droids is no different than blowing away a non-force sensitive. It's why the most powerful sith and jedi in the lore have never been killed by a "Normal guy." in a one on one straight up fight. A droid, even a skilled droid, against top tier force users isn't going to make a lick of difference. See Grievous versus Windu and remember Windu instantly crushed grievous chest. Windu, if he wanted to, could do the same to Jango with just as little effort. Jango pulled off a good fight against Obi Wan (Who is pretty powerful in his own right) but still falls short to people like Arcann.

 

Just noting it was Kyle Katarn that said the Force is a preference and he was proven wrong later anyway as I recall.

 

Jango at best pulled a BFR stalemate and that really was only because Boba also helped out with Slave 1s guns. His weapons didn't really do much other than the missile, his whipcord all he did was drag him around. These things would hardly affect Arcann who could just crush an artery and kill him instantly.

[Rhyltran]

Just noting it was Kyle Katarn that said the Force is a preference and he was proven wrong later anyway as I recall.

 

Jango at best pulled a BFR stalemate and that really was only because Boba also helped out with Slave 1s guns. His weapons didn't really do much other than the missile, his whipcord all he did was drag him around. These things would hardly affect Arcann who could just crush an artery and kill him instantly.

 

Nope. Luke says it in the game too. Just played it. He states it when between missions.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Nope. Luke says it in the game too. Just played it. He states it when between missions.

 

Oh...meh I haven't played it in awhile. /Shrug

[Rhyltran]

Oh...meh I haven't played it in awhile. /Shrug

 

Nope. You're right. It is only kyle that says it. I just looked up all the dialogue in the game to be sure. I don't like posting misinformation. I must have misheard.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

People argue that it doesn't make sense because with fighters on the caliber of Arcann can move faster than most non-force sensitives can even see. Not to mention in the cut scenes he pushes around the force sensitive classes. Using the same effort that can send the HOT flying would absolutely destroy a non-force sensitive. Also when using moves like force crush etc by some of the strongest force users it doesn't take a lot of concentration or precision. As for Jedi Knight Jedi Academy?

 

In the old system it's secondary canon which means only certain events and cut scenes are canon. Gameplay mechanics are not. Not to mention it isn't the most well-researched game to begin with considering in that game Luke states that using the dark side or light is just a matter of preference and it's how those powers are used that define a Jedi. This is completely wrong considering in the books this is what Luke has to say on the subject..

 

"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."

 

The effort it takes a jedi or sith to blow away a bunch of droids is no different than blowing away a non-force sensitive. It's why the most powerful sith and jedi in the lore have never been killed by a "Normal guy." in a one on one straight up fight. A droid, even a skilled droid, against top tier force users isn't going to make a lick of difference. See Grievous versus Windu and remember Windu instantly crushed grievous chest. Windu, if he wanted to, could do the same to Jango with just as little effort. Jango pulled off a good fight against Obi Wan (Who is pretty powerful in his own right) but still falls short to people like Arcann.

 

That being said, they need to make the story work for non-force sensitives and bioware isn't going to suddenly look to people who play them and go "lol no you die." I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it but yes. Logically in the lore our non force sensitives would be pasted by someone like Arcann.

 

Okay his caliber hmm what calibers is it? Tell me 30 force users that can move faster then someone can see if you can not then 20 if you can not then 10. Really now how many force users where where that fast in this immense franchise. You know we can see a supersonic jet at full speed?

Oh and I know what you mean you are talking about force speed but people can see force users that use force speed it might be blur but they can see as they can see a blaster bolt which has the speed of 135mph by the way and you can dodge them lets say a force user is even faster even if they break the sound barrier we can still see them and way way faster then that. Mara Jade once said that using force speed she can catch one between her fingers which is possible at the speed of sound the problem is even that is not fast enough that we can not see them.

Edited February 8, 2016 by adormitul

[Rhyltran]

Okay his caliber hmm what calibers is it? Tell me 30 force users that can move faster then someone can see if you can not then 20 if you can not then 10. Really now how many force users where where that fast in this immense franchise. You know we can see a supersonic jet at full speed?

 

Count Dooku, Exar Kun, Yoda, Darth Vader, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker, Jaina Solo, Jacen Solo, Palpatine, Krayt, Cade, Starkiller, Darth Marr and I can go on but I think I made my point. Realize that Arcann here was holding back an attack that casually touching pilots resulted in their death. Senya sends a hibernation sickness outlander flying and going by simple physics a non force user would not be in good shape for even landing in that fall. Likewise, the class doesn't matter so if a force user would be flung that far it'd be even easier and further (not to mention harder) to fling a non-force sensitive.

 

As for the bold? I'm aware. This is why we claim that from a logical standpoint non-force sensitives against the strongest jedi/sith is a ridiculous notion. There are sith and jedi who can move faster than a "Supersonic speed" jet. Heck, there are (very few but they exist) Sith/Jedi that can destroy planets. Star Wars might be science fiction but it's also very high fantasy as well.

 

In the star wars universe capability of holding back an attack means that the user has to be either that strong or at least semi close to it. Realize that arcann, after being blown back from the attack, then fell so far we couldn't even see the bottom and survived said fall in good health. Arcann is implied to be more powerful than Marr who didn't just move faster than a non-force sensitive could see but moved faster than Darth Lachris can see. This means, even with the aid of the force, Lachris, a Darth, could not follow him with her force senses or enhanced normal senses.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

As I mentioned in the edit you are talking about force speed where people still can see them its blurr but they can see them. You know that also so lets not exagerate.

[Rhyltran]

As I mentioned in the edit you are talking about force speed where people still can see them its blurr but they can see them. You know that also so lets not exagerate.

 

No. They can't see them. The most powerful force sensitives don't move in a blur. They are invisible. I can provide COUNTLESS comic book sources, novel sources, etc.

[adormitul]

No. They can't see them. The most powerful force sensitives don't move in a blur. They are invisible. I can provide COUNTLESS comic book sources, novel sources, etc.

 

I can do the same thing that show that they move in a blur.

[Rhyltran]

I can do the same thing that show that they move in a blur.

 

Nope. You can show "some" move in a blur. Not all.

 

"Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. 'I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it.'

 

'I see no reason to.'

 

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

 

'You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."

[adormitul]

Nope. You can show "some" move in a blur. Not all.

 

"Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. 'I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it.'

 

'I see no reason to.'

 

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

 

'You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."

 

Have you read shatterpoint? I one of his battles with 2 force sensitive one untrained Mace Windu a top tier force user had to use force speed in fight with that untrained force sensitive well strange but found a lot there first force speed is exhausting second he was seen.

Now how do you know that was force speed not http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_cloak. I mean really a instant is considered to be 10000 the speed of light and she had time to think?

Edited February 8, 2016 by adormitul

[Rhyltran]

Have you read shatterpoint? I one of his battles with 2 force sensitive one untrained Mace Windu a top tier force user had to use force speed in fight with that untrained force sensitive well strange but found a lot there first force speed is exhausting second he was seen.

 

You mean..

 

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

 

- Source : Shatterpoint

 

Notice the descript there. Mace's strikes were invisible. Vastor's strikes were blinding but Mace Windu's strikes couldn't even be seen by the naked eye. So how would a non-force sensitive go about dodging attacks that are so quick they are invisible? How would a non-force sensitive go about keeping out of windu's reach when he has this kind of speed?

 

Or how about..

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4227232-star+wars+tales+13-055.jpg

 

If you want a visual indicator. Note that he moves so quickly it appears the blaster bolt went right through him and with her gun still raised and the blaster bolt in the air.. he has elbowed her in the back.

 

Oh, and Windu isn't even close to one of the strongest force users. Probably top 20-30 material but there's force users more powerful and faster too.

 

I mean really a instant is considered to be 10000 the speed of light and she had time to think?

 

There was no indication it was force cloak, not to mention, as soon as her nostrils flared as she "Tried to sense him" he was speaking to her from behind.

 

I can give way more examples. I can do this all day but I think I've posted enough evidence already. Thing is they have to make it work for the other classes. So when non-force sensitives face Arcann you have to head canon that either

 

A) They are force sensitive

B) You are only capable of surviving due to valkorion's influence or

C) PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity.)

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

You mean..

 

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

 

- Source : Shatterpoint

 

Notice the descript there. Mace's strikes were invisible. Vastor's strikes were blinding but Mace Windu's strikes couldn't even be seen by the naked eye. So how would a non-force sensitive go about dodging attacks that are so quick they are invisible? How would a non-force sensitive go about keeping out of windu's reach when he has this kind of speed?

 

Or how about..

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4227232-star+wars+tales+13-055.jpg

 

If you want a visual indicator. Note that he moves so quickly it appears the blaster bolt went right through him and with her gun still raised and the blaster bolt in the air.. he has elbowed her in the back.

 

Oh, and Windu isn't even close to one of the strongest force users. Probably top 20-30 material but there's force users more powerful and faster too.

 

Really faster and stronger force users not there not he is not he is one of 2 defeated Sidious. Unless you say now that Sidious is not close to being one of the strongest force users.

Oh yeah I do not remember if its the first or the second battle between them but I know it was not enough to defeat Vastor is not that true? Now yes he had no lightsaber but a tough body can take a lot of punishment.

But do you think Arcann is stronger and faster then Windu?

Now about Darth Marr I ask why do you think he used force speed and not force cloak do you know the distance between him and her at when he went invisible what if he was really close to her? This is the thing how was it so she was surprised that he was invisible lets say 1 second, she tried to detect him another 1 second so about 2 seconds. More then enough.

You also forget the drawback of force speed it exhaust you it really does.

About your last edit

1: Number 1 its not possible it was confirmed that they do not have force sensitivity.

2. Number 2 might be

3: The third well the it will be boring since if we use logic he should have been able to avoid being trown by using force speed to get away from his fathers powers or the thing that made him fall.

 

It might be another thing what if he does not know force speed? Have you ever saw him use it. It would have been so useful in avoiding the bombs that fell on him. Just because Marr probably knows it does not mean Arcann knows it.

I think Mace was the character in all Star Wars that used force speed the most or Luke Skywalker one of the 2.

Edited February 8, 2016 by adormitul

[Rhyltran]

Really faster and stronger force users not there not he is not he is one of 2 defeated Sidious. Unless you say now that Sidious is not close to being one of the strongest force users.

Oh yeah I do not remember if its the first or the second battle between them but I know it was not enough to defeat Vastor is not that true? Now yes he had no lightsaber but a tough body can take a lot of punishment.

But do you think Arcann is stronger and faster then Windu?

Now about Darth Marr I ask why do you think he used force speed and not force cloak do you know the distance between him and her at when he went invisible what if he was really close to her? This is the thing how was it so she was surprised that he was invisible lets say 1 second, she tried to detect him another 1 second so about 2 seconds. More then enough.

You also forget the drawback of force speed it exhaust you it really does.

About your last edit

1: Number 1 its not possible it was confirmed that they do not have force sensitivity.

2. Number 2 might be

3: The third well the it will be boring since if we use logic he should have been able to avoid being trown by using force speed to get away from his fathers powers or the thing that made him fall.

 

It might be another thing what if he does not know force speed? Have you ever saw him use it. It would have been so useful in avoiding the bombs that fell on him. Just because Marr probably knows it does not mean Arcann knows it.

I think Mace was the character in all Star Wars that used force speed the most or Luke Skywalker one of the 2.

 

In the EU there's a lot of circumstances for him beating Sidious. First of all he was using Vaapad and was drawing on Sidious darkness as well as Anakin's darkness. Second, he only won the lightsaber duel. Just as Windu was going to "drop" his lightsaber Sidious stopped. Third, Sidious became even more powerful after Revenge of the Stih until he was dropped down a reactor shaft. When he came back as Palpatine Reborn he was far more powerful than he was in ROTJ.

 

Yes Arcann is faster and more powerful than Windu. If you check out the "most powerful" thread many of us are not alone in thinking this. In fact we're trying to come up with the 15 strongest force users and Windu isn't even being considered for Top 15.

 

Arcann couldn't avoid his father's lightning because.. his father is more powerful than him. Likely faster too. The game makes that clear. Valkorion eclipses Arcann in power. Also every Jedi and Sith know force speed but not all are at the same level. How far you push it determines how tired it makes you. On some level ALL jedi and Sith when they fight they use the force to enhance their body, reflexes, and speed. The degree that they can do it depends on the sith/Jedi in question.

 

There's Jedi and Sith who can enhance their strength enough to punch through steel.

 

Realize Palpatine Reborn going back to that could break the space/time contiuum and create wormholes capable of destroying the surface of worlds and annihilating entire starfleets. Of course that's Sidious but yeah. Valkorion comes close to Sidious reborn and is stronger than ROTS Sidious as well.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rhyltran

[Slowpokeking]

Depend on the class really. I don't feel too much problem with my agent be able to be possessed by the Emperor, but having trouble to play a totally different role, to take the mantle of a public alliance's command and fight Arcann hand to hand, rather than do what agents should do, infiltrate and fight Force users only when necessary.

[adormitul]

In the EU there's a lot of circumstances for him beating Sidious. First of all he was using Vaapad and was drawing on Sidious darkness as well as Anakin's darkness. Second, he only won the lightsaber duel. Just as Windu was going to "drop" his lightsaber Sidious stopped. Third, Sidious became even more powerful after Revenge of the Stih until he was dropped down a reactor shaft. When he came back as Palpatine Reborn he was far more powerful than he was in ROTJ.

 

Yes Arcann is faster and more powerful than Windu. If you check out the "most powerful" thread many of us are not alone in thinking this. In fact we're trying to come up with the 15 strongest force users and Windu isn't even being considered for Top 15.

 

Arcann couldn't avoid his father's lightning because.. his father is more powerful than him. Likely faster too. The game makes that clear. Valkorion eclipses Arcann in power. Also every Jedi and Sith know force speed but not all are at the same level. How far you push it determines how tired it makes you. On some level ALL jedi and Sith when they fight they use the force to enhance their body, reflexes, and speed. The degree that they can do it depends on the sith/Jedi in question.

 

There's Jedi and Sith who can enhance their strength enough to punch through steel.

 

Realize Palpatine Reborn going back to that could break the space/time contiuum and create wormholes capable of destroying the surface of worlds and annihilating entire starfleets. Of course that's Sidious but yeah. Valkorion comes close to Sidious reborn and is stronger than ROTS Sidious as well.

 

Yeah not gonna read 500 and something pages to know why Windu was not put in the first 15 I will assume that is force users not duelists and there not enough force using feats for him to be there and was outclassed by the incredible force using feats that Sidious and Vitiate had which by the way are not that useful in a duel as they take some time who gives you that much time in a duel.

But I will give you something to think just because one has the potential in the force it does not mean he reached it. You say that Arcann is stronger as a force user then Darth Marr and could be but it does not mean its in all areas. As I said why did he not used his force speed if you think he is that good at it to escape the bomb that maimed him or the ship that made him fall?

Again no proof he is that fast hell the proof is against it look at how maimed he is.

[MadDutchman]

I don't think Arcann is actually all that strong. Arrogant enough sure, but we don't really se him doing anything amazing

 

Vaylin... now that's another matter entirely, but we haven't fought her yet.

[Codedrago]

I don't think Arcann is actually all that strong. Arrogant enough sure, but we don't really se him doing anything amazing

 

Vaylin... now that's another matter entirely, but we haven't fought her yet.

 

Well, he kicked the Outlander's Arse. And while I don't hype up the PC's talents that much, that is a sign of a good amount of power. Plus, he's still the son of the Emperor, trained from childhood by the best Zakuul had to offer. He is a force to be reckoned with for sure.

 

Vaylin is a threat...When she's not being an absolute idiot.

[Slowpokeking]

I don't think Arcann is actually all that strong. Arrogant enough sure, but we don't really se him doing anything amazing

 

Vaylin... now that's another matter entirely, but we haven't fought her yet.

 

My SI was having a lightsaber duel with him...

[SteveTheCynic]

A droid, even a skilled droid, against top tier force users isn't going to make a lick of difference. See Grievous versus Windu and remember Windu instantly crushed grievous chest.

Fuss, fuss. Grievous is a cyborg, not a droid. (Somewhere in there there's a couple of kilos of Kaleesh left.)

 

Or so sayeth Wookieepedia.

[cool-dude]

the non-force users on the imperial side stopped making sense pre-kotfe, when they entered the Sith temple and did not become possessed. It's one thing to ward off a jedi/sith mind trick, it's another ball game when we are talking about possession from a Sith Lord ghost. hell, even force users were possessed.

 

Edit:

This whole game revolves around force users, and some force users more than others. The KOTFE story was specifically written for the JK and SW, as these guys are both the iconic movie classes with the JK representing Luke, and SW representing Vader.

Edited February 9, 2016 by cool-dude

[SteveTheCynic]

the non-force users on the imperial side stopped making sense pre-kotfe, when they entered the Sith temple and did not become possessed. It's one thing to ward off a jedi/sith mind trick, it's another ball game when we are talking about possession from a Sith Lord ghost. hell, even force users were possessed.

 

Edit:

This whole game revolves around force users, and some force users more than others. The KOTFE story was specifically written for the JK and SW, as these guys are both the iconic movie classes with the JK representing Luke, and SW representing Vader.

OK, you go on believing that, and ignoring the otehr iconic movie class, the one they call "Smuggler".

 

And the other one, because it's possible to argue that Alec Guiness was a Shadow. (He spent time using the Force to sneak around, duh.)

 

And the other one, called Bounty Hunter.

 

(I'm not sure quite where Imperial Agent comes from, and in any event it isn't from the main movies. Trooper, well, duh, soldiers are everywhere in the films.)

[cool-dude]

OK, you go on believing that, and ignoring the otehr iconic movie class, the one they call "Smuggler".

 

And the other one, because it's possible to argue that Alec Guiness was a Shadow. (He spent time using the Force to sneak around, duh.)

 

And the other one, called Bounty Hunter.

 

(I'm not sure quite where Imperial Agent comes from, and in any event it isn't from the main movies. Trooper, well, duh, soldiers are everywhere in the films.)

 

ok, I will.

[Rhyltran]

Yeah not gonna read 500 and something pages to know why Windu was not put in the first 15 I will assume that is force users not duelists and there not enough force using feats for him to be there and was outclassed by the incredible force using feats that Sidious and Vitiate had which by the way are not that useful in a duel as they take some time who gives you that much time in a duel.

But I will give you something to think just because one has the potential in the force it does not mean he reached it. You say that Arcann is stronger as a force user then Darth Marr and could be but it does not mean its in all areas. As I said why did he not used his force speed if you think he is that good at it to escape the bomb that maimed him or the ship that made him fall?

Again no proof he is that fast hell the proof is against it look at how maimed he is.

 

Vader was maimed and is faster than Windu. He has superior speed feats. He was shot at with another guy behind him. Leaped after the guy had already fired, landed behind the guy who fired at him, and in the panel the guy has the same expression while his buddy was shot in the chest. Vader's leap was so quick he completely missed and shot his buddy and Vader was already behind him. Of course, Vader has more speed feats than that.

 

As for Sidious? Sidious too was moving so fast when fighting Luke (as well as Luke fighting Sidious) that Leia outright stated that she could NOT SEE them. She could just feel the light clashing against the dark and feel that the light was winning. She could also feel the clashes each time coming from different parts of the ship. Also most of Sidious best force feats could be used instantaneously. Same with Vitiate (such as his life drain.) Sidious released a point blank wormhole on Luke in an instant as well.

 

Fuss, fuss. Grievous is a cyborg, not a droid. (Somewhere in there there's a couple of kilos of Kaleesh left.)

 

Or so sayeth Wookieepedia.

I mentioned droids and closed it with a period. My point still stands. He had a machine body (99% of him was machine) and it still took no effort for Windu to force crush his chest. He could do it even easier with a non-force sensitive.

 

While the smuggler is an iconic class, Han Solo was not capable in any capacity to take down top tier force users.

 

Let's not forget that Boba Fett, the greatest bounty hunter the galaxy has ever seen, (such an accolade puts him above the PC hunter.) couldn't beat Jaden. Jaden is not the top Jedi of luke's order.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

Vader was maimed and is faster than Windu. He has superior speed feats. He was shot at with another guy behind him. Leaped after the guy had already fired, landed behind the guy who fired at him, and in the panel the guy has the same expression while his buddy was shot in the chest. Vader's leap was so quick he completely missed and shot his buddy and Vader was already behind him. Of course, Vader has more speed feats than that.

 

As for Sidious? Sidious too was moving so fast when fighting Luke (as well as Luke fighting Sidious) that Leia outright stated that she could NOT SEE them. She could just feel the light clashing against the dark and feel that the light was winning. She could also feel the clashes each time coming from different parts of the ship. Also most of Sidious best force feats could be used instantaneously. Same with Vitiate (such as his life drain.) Sidious released a point blank wormhole on Luke in an instant as well.

So the one in bold its not proof that Windu is slower then Vader he also did similar things. So a blaster bolt is about 217 km/h which is embarrassingly slow. That means that Vader was faster then 217 km/h which if you ever see anything at that speed you will see that you basically stand still when then go past you. If something hits you at that speed you can not even react even if you see it but its faster then you can focus your eyes. Unless you focus on him from the beginning you will not see him. Like with the supersonic jet if one passes near you will just have heard something not see him. But if you watch him from taking the landing until he is at full speed and going you will see him. Does that makes sense?

 

Now about Sidious was there not enough time to cut him from the force when he did the point blank wormhole you are talking about?