Why are the non force users not suited for KOTFE?

[Rhyltran]

So the one in bold its not proof that Windu is slower then Vader he also did similar things. So a blaster bolt is about 217 km/h which is embarrassingly slow. That means that Vader was faster then 217 km/h which if you ever see anything at that speed you will see that you basically stand still when then go past you. If something hits you at that speed you can not even react even if you see it but its faster then you can focus your eyes. Unless you focus on him from the beginning you will not see him. Like with the supersonic jet if one passes near you will just have heard something not see him. But if you watch him from taking the landing until he is at full speed and going you will see him. Does that makes sense?

 

Now about Sidious was there not enough time to cut him from the force when he did the point blank wormhole you are talking about?

 

I wasn't trying to prove that feat is faster than Windu. I was pointing out Vader can move at that speed as well. (The person not realizing he even shot his buddy until after vader was already gone.) Vader has FAR superior speed feats to that blaster bolt incident. The point of this exercise is to show top tier force users will be killing a non-force sensitive with their speed before they even realize they were in danger. No amount of skill is going to save them. A non-force sensitive isn't going to beat Vader, Windu, etc.

 

As for Sidious? Realize Luke was fast enough to match Sidious. So his reflexes were capable of doing so. As I mentioned before, they were both moving so quickly that Leia couldn't see them. So while yes he did a point blank wormhole with little prep time Luke had the reflexes to counter said attack.

 

A non-force sensitive.. would be obliterated.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

It was Luke and Leia who cut him from the force does she also knew force speed?

But I wanna add something you know we are overlooking the fact that the non force users have high tech equipment and are enhanced humans you know have the implants that might give them better perception and I might even say reflexes. The problem is that one of them does not have high tech equipment and the is the smuggler which lets say he has modified blaster like Han Solo and its a fast shot it not enough his armor is not light saber resistant he defeats his enemies trough well a lot of great shooting and hiding. But the only time he fought a force user in his story it was with another one on his side so I do not know if he has any chance he is the weakest among all it terms of skill and equipment granted he knows how to adapt fast and tons of luck but yeah I do not think he can defeat a force user on his own without another one helping him.

The other ones have high tech gear that can make up for their lack in the force. The BH can fly, has flame trowers, carbonite freezing, the agent has access to satelites that can track his opponents and has poison, grenades, electro nets and all kinds of tech that can slow down a opponent. Then we have the trooper he has mega high firepower if there is someone who can do constant firing is him and I mean constant and heavy quite heavy.

Edited February 11, 2016 by adormitul

[Rhyltran]

It was Luke and Leia who cut him from the force does she also knew force speed?

But I wanna add something you know we are overlooking the fact that the non force users have high tech equipment and are enhanced humans you know have the implants that might give them better perception and I might even say reflexes. The problem is that one of them does not have high tech equipment and the is the smuggler which lets say he has modified blaster like Han Solo and its a fast shot it not enough his armor is not light saber resistant he defeats his enemies trough well a lot of great shooting and hiding. But the only time he fought a force user in his story it was with another one on his side so I do not know if he has any chance he is the weakest among all it terms of skill and equipment granted he knows how to adapt fast and tons of luck but yeah I do not think he can defeat a force user on his own without another one helping him.

The other ones have high tech gear that can make up for their lack in the force. The BH can fly, has flame trowers, carbonite freezing, the agent has access to satelites that can track his opponents and has poison, grenades, electro nets and all kinds of tech that can slow down a opponent. Then we have the trooper he has mega high firepower if there is someone who can do constant firing is him and I mean constant and heavy quite heavy.

 

Given that it's a common ability? Yes.

[adormitul]

Given that it's a common ability? Yes.

 

I will ask you again did she used it?

[Rhyltran]

I will ask you again did she used it?

 

You do realize force speed is so common in the mythos they don't always mention it's happening, right? You realize, especially in this incident, that what you're doing is considering reaching? Look, fact is Luke and Sidious fought and were moving so quickly Leia couldn't even see them. Satellites, turrets, grenades, it doesn't matter. If the BH fought Luke he would die before he could even think "Who is this guy?" He would die before he could move one finger towards his gun (if Luke wanted to go all out.) A non-force sensitive what are they going to do against someone like vader or someone with TK close to his level? In real life even without jedi reflexes it takes less time to point my hand at you than it would for you to reach down, grab a gun, pull it out, and aim. Pointing a hand at you is all it would take for top tier jedi to kill you. Literally one motion. That's it.

 

Here's the deal. Top tier jedi and Sith have never, in the entire mythos, lost to a non-force sensitive. You don't hear Obi Wan Kenobi or Yoda saying "If Luke fails maybe some really skilled guy will take them down." No. The entire galaxy's hope rests on the shoulders of Luke. A force sensitive. Not any force sensitive but Anakin's son. Likewise, the only shot at beating the first order in the new movie? Lies on a force sensitive. The only one with a chance to beat Exar Kun? A force sensitive. The only one who has a chance at beating Krayt? Cade Skywalker. This is a parallel in most star wars mediums. The greatest Sith and Jedi fear only their counterparts.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

No but its not Luke or Sidious we are talking about nobody thinks Arcann is even close to any of this 2 in power they where pinnacle of what a force user can reach they where the strongest force users in the entire SW lore. You know the Vong who where immune to the force well they where not immune the Luke's force attacks that big was the difference between him a average jedi. While a normal jedi with a force push could just slightly nudge a Vong Luke Skywalker could force push a entire army of Vong. How did Leia got as fast as Luke in that scenario she barely had any training.

Darth Sidious was so strong that he managed to defeat 3 council jedi masters in seconds and as you know there where quite powerful ones yes you probably will put them in the 50 or 60 ranking but can you honestly say that Arcann is even close to his level. Do not forget this guy lost one arm and leg against a bomb which he could have easily avoided if he was near as fast as Sidious or Luke Skywalker or not be trown by a piece of metal down who knows how many thousands of miles until he has caught by a fighter or something.

This 2 are so strong that Arcann is a small fry compared to him. By the way did you knew that Darth Vader was almost killed by a huge army of non force sensitives. That is also a way overwhelming numbers until the enemy gets to tired.

Edited February 11, 2016 by adormitul

[Rhyltran]

No but its not Luke or Sidious we are talking about nobody thinks Arcann is even close to any of this 2 in power they where pinnacle of what a force user can reach they where the strongest force users in the entire SW lore. You know the Vong who where immune to the force well they where not immune the Luke's force attacks that big was the difference between him a average jedi. While a normal jedi with a force push could just slightly nudge a Vong Luke Skywalker could force push a entire army of Vong. How did Leia got as fast as Luke in that scenario she barely had any training.

Darth Sidious was so strong that he managed to defeat 3 council jedi masters in seconds and as you know there where quite powerful ones yes you probably will put them in the 50 or 60 ranking but can you honestly say that Arcann is even close to his level. Do not forget this guy lost one arm and leg against a bomb which he could have easily avoided if he was near as fast as Sidious or Luke Skywalker or not be trown by a piece of metal down who knows how many thousands of miles until he has caught by a fighter or something.

This 2 are so strong that Arcann is a small fry compared to him. By the way did you knew that Darth Vader was almost killed by a huge army of non force sensitives. That is also a way overwhelming numbers until the enemy gets to tired.

 

Arcann is theoretically in the top 20 force users of all time. Not to mention he's often compared to Cade Skywalker. You know, the only one capable of going against Darth Krayt, Arcann is not that far behind. You also forget that he relied a lot on his brother originally which hampered him. It was through his fight with the republic and Empire that he reached his true power. We see this in that he was struggling in most of his confrontations. We see a brand new Arcann as he completely dominates Darth Atroxia. He also defeats his brother rather easily (who defends himself against his attacks) who was always more powerful than him. Time skip 5 years later and he's no undoubtedly improved even further.

 

Cade level jedi are not going to be beaten by non-force users either aside from PIS.

[adormitul]

Arcann is theoretically in the top 20 force users of all time. Not to mention he's often compared to Cade Skywalker. You know, the only one capable of going against Darth Krayt, Arcann is not that far behind. You also forget that he relied a lot on his brother originally which hampered him. It was through his fight with the republic and Empire that he reached his true power. We see this in that he was struggling in most of his confrontations. We see a brand new Arcann as he completely dominates Darth Atroxia. He also defeats his brother rather easily (who defends himself against his attacks) who was always more powerful than him. Time skip 5 years later and he's no undoubtedly improved even further.

 

Cade level jedi are not going to be beaten by non-force users either aside from PIS.

 

But why do you com[are him with Cade? Really why?

[Master-Nala]

I don't think it's a simple issue of yes or no. In some ways I think the non-force users are MORE suited than the force users.

 

With respect to the differential in power shown, it makes a lot more sense for an non-force user to need Valkorian's power in most of the instances where its offered. However, and this is just my opinion, all 4 of the force using classes should have been able to easily

save Lana, defeat the scion leader, and beat Arcann.

I am simply unable to suspend my disbelief on that point. However, for the non-force users, each of those scenarios there is a plausible need for powers held only by force users.

 

Now with respect to the overall story though, no it makes no sense for Valkorian to care this much about the non-force using classes. The Trooper, BH, Smuggler and Agent are all exemplars of their profession no doubt. But we're talking about fights against force users.

 

In Star Wars, no matter how talented a non-force user is, they aren't in the same league as Jedi/Sith. In Ep.1 when Darth Maul appears near the end, the Queen and her troops leave him to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. In Ep. 6 Luke goes alone to confront Vader and the Emperor. Take either of those scenarios, remove the Jedi and put the non-force using main characters in their place. Would it still make sense?

 

Take the fight against Darth Maul. Who is legitimately significantly weaker than Arcann. What would have happened if Padme and her troops engaged him without Qui-Gonn or Obi-Wan? It would have been a slaughter. And if it wasn't it would have seemed silly. Well, for me that is why I just can't get into KOTFE with a non-force user. Even with all their talent, this is supposed to be a fight with space wizards using lightsabers.

 

Just my 2 credits. Others can have different opinions which are completely legitimate.

[Rhyltran]

But why do you com[are him with Cade? Really why?

 

Why? Because he was able to contend with Valkorion's lightning (if you take that option) for a significant length of time before falling off. Falling off a skyscraper so large you can't even see the bottom. To which he recovers from without so much as a scratch. Because he's able to rag-doll the outlander (who is most likely the HOT and Wrath) despite their various feats. Because a blast from the emperor that completely takes the outlander out of commission? Arcann simply stands back up. Oh, and a lightning attack that kills Marr just knocks Arcann down. Marr who can move faster than a DARTH could see. Marr who was able to take on small armies. Etc

 

Because Vaylin, as much as it's clear she doesn't like her brother, still takes orders from him and while she has more potential it's clear at the moment Arcann is still more powerful. More powerful than Vaylin who can rip bulkheads apart. Remember, this is the same guy that was holding back an attack that was casually destroying any ship and pilot it touched. The smuggler, bounty hunter, etc don't have anymore resistance than those poor pilots. Nor do they have anymore resistance than those poor bulkheads had against Valyin (ergo she can do that to a player.)

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

Why? Because he was able to contend with Valkorion's lightning (if you take that option) for a significant length of time before falling off. Falling off a skyscraper so large you can't even see the bottom. To which he recovers from without so much as a scratch. Because he's able to rag-doll the outlander (who is most likely the HOT and Wrath) despite their various feats. Because a blast from the emperor that completely takes the outlander out of commission? Arcann simply stands back up. Oh, and a lightning attack that kills Marr just knocks Arcann down. Marr who can move faster than a DARTH could see. Marr who was able to take on small armies. Etc

 

Because Vaylin, as much as it's clear she doesn't like her brother, still takes orders from him and while she has more potential it's clear at the moment Arcann is still more powerful. More powerful than Vaylin who can rip bulkheads apart. Remember, this is the same guy that was holding back an attack that was casually destroying any ship and pilot it touched. The smuggler, bounty hunter, etc don't have anymore resistance than those poor pilots. Nor do they have anymore resistance than those poor bulkheads had against Valyin (ergo she can do that to a player.)

 

Yeah that is true but why Cade are there not others with similar resistance to death delivering attacks like Darth Maul who was cut in half and fell in a shaft in water but high heights and falling in water does not bode well or better Darth Malgus who had a cliff fell on him and hours later a mountain of rubles on him? I still think that was for camouflage not force speed and I told you why. It was to long until he was behind her as she had the time to try to sense him which is about 2 seconds if we factor she was surprised which is more then enough time.

Really that sounds a lot as force camouflage.

[Rhyltran]

Yeah that is true but why Cade are there not others with similar resistance to death delivering attacks like Darth Maul who was cut in half and fell in a shaft in water but high heights and falling in water does not bode well or better Darth Malgus who had a cliff fell on him and hours later a mountain of rubles on him? I still think that was for camouflage not force speed and I told you why. It was to long until he was behind her as she had the time to try to sense him which is about 2 seconds if we factor she was surprised which is more then enough time.

Really that sounds a lot as force camouflage.

 

Actually it wasn't camouflage there's no evidence for that. Not to mention it wouldn't explain how he got behind her. Given the fact that he was infront of her quite a bit aways. Also just as she began to try to sense him she heard his voice behind her. Not to mention he displayed superior speed when she actually fought him and was dropped. Not that it matters. It's accepted on just about every star wars forum as a display of speed. Plus Jedi and Sith can think astronomically fast. Her attempt to sense him wouldn't take two seconds. Sith and Jedi perceive and think quicker than that.

 

The closest in that list was Maul. Maul happens to be considered around the player character's level. (TCW maul anyway.) who Arcann is ragdolling. You have a habit of picking out one thing I say and trying to use it to refute my entire paragraph. Except, you fail to take into account all of the feats I mentioned. Also there's very very few non-force sensitives to begin with who can take on the likes of Maul. Maul proceeded to trash the leader of death watch using strictly hand to hand combat. Maul, who is considered around the player character's level, who was also being ragdolled by Arcann. There's some serious power scaling right there.

 

If you're not talking about the fall but the lightning? No. None of those attacks are close to Valkorion's power or lightning. Not even remotely on the same level. Not even in the same classification. Valkorion has the power to vaporize non-force sensitives with his lightning.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[adormitul]

Actually it wasn't camouflage there's no evidence for that. Not to mention it wouldn't explain how he got behind her. Given the fact that he was infront of her quite a bit aways. Also just as she began to try to sense him she heard his voice behind her. Not to mention he displayed superior speed when she actually fought him and was dropped. Not that it matters. It's accepted on just about every star wars forum as a display of speed. Plus Jedi and Sith can think astronomically fast. Her attempt to sense him wouldn't take two seconds. Sith and Jedi perceive and think quicker than that.

 

The closest in that list was Maul. Maul happens to be considered around the player character's level. (TCW maul anyway.) who Arcann is ragdolling. You have a habit of picking out one thing I say and trying to use it to refute my entire paragraph. Except, you fail to take into account all of the feats I mentioned. Also there's very very few non-force sensitives to begin with who can take on the likes of Maul. Maul proceeded to trash the leader of death watch using strictly hand to hand combat. Maul, who is considered around the player character's level, who was also being ragdolled by Arcann. There's some serious power scaling right there.

 

If you're not talking about the fall but the lightning? No. None of those attacks are close to Valkorion's power or lightning. Not even remotely on the same level. Not even in the same classification. Valkorion has the power to vaporize non-force sensitives with his lightning.

 

Are you kiding me its a mountain of rubble made of steel and duracrete. He can make people ash with their lighting where did I saw that oh yeah Darth Bane so he should be there up with Valkorian. I swear Darth Malgus killed 3 jedi with his lighting unbelievable it seems Valkorion is not the only one who can kill with his lighting or make people ash with it.

[Rhyltran]

Are you kiding me its a mountain of rubble made of steel and duracrete. He can make people ash with their lighting where did I saw that oh yeah Darth Bane so he should be there up with Valkorian. I swear Darth Malgus killed 3 jedi with his lighting unbelievable it seems Valkorion is not the only one who can kill with his lighting or make people ash with it.

 

Except Valkorion can do more than turn people to ash and destroy people on a much larger scale. (See Ziost.) If you're going to argue Bane or Malgus are seriously on Valkorion's level I'm just going to walk away. Malgus is closer to Arcann I'll give you that but Malgus > Bane.

 

Though, Malgus wouldn't lose one on one to a non-force sensitive either. Pre-prime Malgus took a point blank grenade and survived in good enough condition to keep fighting.

 

Prime Malgus took on four of the PC heroes at once and was only defeated by being knocked off the ledge. At least top 20 material has finally been mentioned.

 

Look, Star Wars evidence points to the fact that those amongst the top Jedi/Sith should not be losing to non-force sensitives. Likewise, Arcann belongs up there with the showings he's presented. This is why some people have trouble with the story.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[Wolfninjajedi]

A non-force sensitive what are they going to do against someone like vader or someone with TK close to his level? In real life even without jedi reflexes it takes less time to point my hand at you than it would for you to reach down, grab a gun, pull it out, and aim. Pointing a hand at you is all it would take for top tier jedi to kill you. Literally one motion. That's it.

 

Tbh the Force User doesn't even really need to be on Vader's level at all.

 

Example, Lycan a Dark Jedi(who's vastly inferior to someone like Vader) didn't even need to gesture(or barely had to) to crush the arteries of several guys at once.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/127594/4928479-4220679346-67_zp.png

 

Your typical Dark Jedi can pretty much disarm and kill Non-Force Users without hardly any effort.

 

One Lekauf clone, the name "NELE" stenciled on his chest place, brought his staff round in a low arc to upend his opponent. But as soon as the man fell flat on his back, he sprang to his feet in one move and threw the Lekauf clone almost the full width of the training hall with a massive Force Push. The other 5 Cuis Clones laid aside their staffs and sent their opponents' weapons spinning from their hands with a single gesture.

 

All the Lekauf clones were knocked flat on their backs and pinned down by an invisible hand.

 

- Taken from Two-Edged Sword

 

This changes however because the Non-Force User has to keep attacking to prevent such attacks from happening, this is where the variety of gear they have come into play.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Wolfninjajedi

[adormitul]

Except Valkorion can do more than turn people to ash and destroy people on a much larger scale. (See Ziost.) If you're going to argue Bane or Malgus are seriously on Valkorion's level I'm just going to walk away. Malgus is closer to Arcann I'll give you that but Malgus > Bane.

 

Though, Malgus wouldn't lose one on one to a non-force sensitive either. Pre-prime Malgus took a point blank grenade and survived in good enough condition to keep fighting.

 

Prime Malgus took on four of the PC heroes at once and was only defeated by being knocked off the ledge. At least top 20 material has finally been mentioned.

 

Look, Star Wars evidence points to the fact that those amongst the top Jedi/Sith should not be losing to non-force sensitives. Likewise, Arcann belongs up there with the showings he's presented. This is why some people have trouble with the story.

 

Of course Valkorian is above Malgus and Bane after all he is one of the 3 force users who where capable of destructions on that scale but as I said he is far far above Arcann but thing is Arcann was shot and while he was victorious in the end he did not defeated our non force user without injuries as far as I know. But maybe he held back so he will not kill the outlander so his father will not get away or because we had 2 droid helpers on our side for most of the fight and tried to play it safe so no bolt will get to him because he was not careful. Until he did not care anymore and if not for Valkorian or Lana or Koth we would have died. Yeah that makes sense.

[Rhyltran]

Of course Valkorian is above Malgus and Bane after all he is one of the 3 force users who where capable of destructions on that scale but as I said he is far far above Arcann but thing is Arcann was shot and while he was victorious in the end he did not defeated our non force user without injuries as far as I know. But maybe he held back so he will not kill the outlander so his father will not get away or because we had 2 droid helpers on our side for most of the fight and tried to play it safe so no bolt will get to him because he was not careful. Until he did not care anymore and if not for Valkorian or Lana or Koth we would have died. Yeah that makes sense.

 

Read Wolfninja's post for an idea of how well non-force sensitives stack up against any powerful jedi/sith.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Rhyltran

[Wolfninjajedi]

Read Wolfninja's post for an idea of how well non-force sensitives stack up against any powerful jedi/sith.

 

Tbh the ones listed above aren't all that powerful. Well they are powerful when compared to Non-Force Users sure, as even lowly Force Adepts(the lowest of the low of Force Users) can overtake entire tribes and command beasts of nature.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Wolfninjajedi

[Rhyltran]

Tbh the ones listed above aren't all that powerful. Well they are powerful when compared to Non-Force Users sure, as even lowly Force Adepts(the lowest of the low of Force Users) can overtake entire tribes and command beasts of nature.

 

No, I know. I was just giving him example of feats. I just didn't have any examples off hand from lesser named characters. I was just pointing out "This guy can do this. People below him can do it to a lesser degree.." but yeah. Your example was the best one yet and isn't really capable of being argued against. This is why some people find the whole KOTFE story using Non-force sensitives ridiculous because Arcann not doing anything similar is a good example of PIS.

[Wolfninjajedi]

No, I know. I was just giving him example of feats. I just didn't have any examples off hand from lesser named characters. I was just pointing out "This guy can do this. People below him can do it to a lesser degree.." but yeah. Your example was the best one yet and isn't really capable of being argued against. This is why some people find the whole KOTFE story using Non-force sensitives ridiculous because Arcann not doing anything similar is a good example of PIS.

 

Well there is also morals coming into play here and actions. But yeah...plus doesn't Arcann want the Outlander alive?

[adormitul]

Tbh the Force User doesn't even really need to be on Vader's level at all.

 

Example, Lycan a Dark Jedi(who's vastly inferior to someone like Vader) didn't even need to gesture(or barely had to) to crush the arteries of several guys at once.

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/127594/4928479-4220679346-67_zp.png

 

Your typical Dark Jedi can pretty much disarm and kill Non-Force Users without hardly any effort.

 

 

 

This changes however because the Non-Force User has to keep attacking to prevent such attacks from happening, this is where the variety of gear they have come into play.

 

Interesting even Vader used hand gestures to crush arteries assuming that is what that choking was and he was the superior one. Hell I do not remember if Sidious was able to do that?

How come he was able to do that and the ones I mentioned could not and so fast?

Oh checked the scan wow that dude was fast I never saw any other force user do such a thing he was amazing. I mean really fast and quite effective why did other force user never thought of that.

Edited February 11, 2016 by adormitul

[blendedseal]

Well in my humble opinion to answer OP's question, non force users have no business surviving either of the 1 vs 1 fights with Arcann unless Valkorian decides to just say "Screw it, I'm taking over and you can't stop me lol." Everything up until those points I can understand, but the two 1 on 1 fights with Arcann are stretching it to far, and that's before you get into the ranged classes like the Commando and Sniper which need distance and not some guy in their face swinging a lightsaber at them to get abilities off. Actually deleted my Sniper because of how immersion breaking it felt to have Arcann hacking at me with his Saber from 1 foot away while I use my sniper rifle on him.

 

If they had something where you are more susceptible to possession because you are not a force user and not versed in the ways of guarding your mind from other force users, which allows Valk to possess you and hulk out without permission whenever, I could understand. Right now though its to much.

 

Non force users feel like they'd be great filling in the roles of Hylo and the Bothan dude, but I won't go in to how I'd organize that because it would be a big *** wall of text.

[adormitul]

That is actually a great idea I wish the technology for that to happen existed. Well it does they did it in DAI but that is a different engine.