Salt In The KotFE: Are We Just Hurting Ourselves?

[Calligan]

Just posted the following new article on my website:

 

http://www.iamsechari.com/2016/01/30/salt-in-the-kotfe-are-we-just-hurting-ourselves/

 

Drop by and let me know your thoughts.

 

Thanks, all!

[Callaron]

Bookmarked to read later when I've got more time. Looks promising from the brief skim I gave it.

[DarthTyranid]

I think you are missing that when a disgruntled player leaves he wants the game to fail. He wants it to die so that something else can replace it. The game has moved so far in the 'wrong' direction that it would be easier to watch it burn and start anew.

 

A Star Wars MMO set in the Movie timeline not in biowares far flung past that is more like a rip off of what people have seen and loved.

 

EA spent a lot for Star Wars rights. They will continue to put money in what makes money and cut sling on the garbage.

 

But they won't let it sit idle. They know there are people who want a Star War MMO. Just not this one.

[Toraak]

It's a good article, the problem that I've seen, is people ARE already LEAVING. my guild on Harb has had 2 raid groups collapse this past week, with people leaving for other games because of lack of new Operations. while I'm trying to give BW/EA the benefit of the doubt that they will make new Ops, even my patience is not unlimited and it has already been 14+ months since Rav/ToS came out.

 

Being Negative may hurt the game in the long run, if nothing is done to get the point across that we NEED new end game content for PvP, PvE, GSF, then we make BW/EA think they are doing everything just fine and will keep doing as they are.

[Roccobb]

I have always hated those people that come and talk on game forums, providing "feedback" rage, while not helping the community, or the game in any way. I get it. You want more ops, you are pissed that it's been x long since the last op. Yet the way this community, since even before launch, goes beyond what I have seen on most other game forums. This "salty" is nothing new. You can look at posts at launch, and see the same kinds of posts. I do believe those posts are harmful to the community at large. I do think constructive criticism is an important tool, yet that is not what we see on the forums.

 

I will disagree with you about voting with my wallet. Personally, I like where KOTFE is taking us, and am very happy with it. I do want to see a new wz more often than every 2 years, but I won't quit over that. Story is why I play this game. There are a thousand other games out there I can get my PVP fix from, so I won't quit this game because the PVP doesn't live up to my expectations. However, others should quit, if they feel the game doesn't provide them the PVP they are looking for. Others should quit if the game is not providing them whatever gameplay they feel is most important to them. I wish them luck in finding the right game, but if this one is not right for them, I would rather them quit.

 

Could voting with my wallet lead to the game shutting down? Maybe, but if I am that unhappy with the game, why should I care? If I am unwilling to pay for it because I am unhappy with it, then all I can hope is someone else is developing another SW MMO. But I will not pay for a game I do not feel is a fit, on the HOPE that they will do what I want. Especially since all hope has been shattered by the developers. They have said repeatedly, we will do better at XXX. Then they don't. As far as we can see, they don't even make a serious effort at following through on what they say they will improve on. So my money will go to wherever I feel it is best at. Again, right now, I think it's this game, and a few other MMO's I play. But, if this game ever changed it's direction away from the story telling I am here for, then I will not be paying anymore. And I wouldn't care that it shut down, because I would HOPE I would get a better game.

[gabigool]

I think putting even 1% of the blame on the community is misguided.

 

If the gameplay experience is compelling, people will stay. Nothing in the forums will change that.

[Roccobb]

I think putting even 1% of the blame on the community is misguided.

 

If the gameplay experience is compelling, people will stay. Nothing in the forums will change that.

 

I disagree. I don't want to hang out with a bunch of drama queens. If that is all the is in the forums and the game, I won't want to be there, no matter how good the game is.

[squirrelballz]

I disagree. I don't want to hang out with a bunch of drama queens. If that is all the is in the forums and the game, I won't want to be there, no matter how good the game is.

 

LOL you would let others dictate what games you play that's funny. Frankly i wouldn't give a crap as long as I'm enjoying a game and the gameplay is good. People will stay in any game if content is compelling and as for dealing with other people you have the choice to ignore or interact with them.

[Falensawino]

They know there are people who want a Star War MMO. Just not this one.

That's the heart of the issue. MMO technology isn't sufficient to create a long lasting game without any content drought cycles and other flaws that plague WoW and It's clone MMORPGs.

 

The problem is an inherent flaw with MMORPG in general.

 

Not many companies taking risks and moving outside the MMORPG box defined by Blizzard back in 2004.

 

here's a few that moved outside the mmorpg box

Warframe (cooperative shooter mmo)

Hawken, World of Tanks, War Thunder (garage mmos, with expandable garage slots and customizable vehicles)

 

not MMOs but provide persistent game

Dota 2, League of Legends. (providing persistent game experience outside of the MMO/MMORPG format)

Edited January 30, 2016 by Falensawino

[SootyTX]

Interesting read, and I agree with the overall sentiment on how criticism is provided is vital. All the hyperbolic vitriol you see on any gaming forum is basically ignored. I chatted with a CoH dev once about this - the view they take is that the kind of people that post like that will basically never be happy. Same with the 'change this or I quit' people - ok, off you go then. because if its not this issue, it'll be a different one next month.

 

Now, some folks that move from supporter to critic are likely to be taken a little more seriously - in that respect being a long time poster can carry a little weight. But it's still not much, and for good reason. We have maybe 50 or 60 regular posters in the general discussion section, maybe even less. It's few enough that you rapidly not only recognise names but also recognise posting patterns. Yes you get drop-ins fairly frequently but the simple fact is that the vast majority of subscribers, let alone players, never post here and probably rarely, if ever, visit. They are busy either playing or living a life.

 

Which leads onto the second point - that people that do post here regularly are extraordinarily invested in the game, for one reason or another, because otherwise they simply wouldn't bother. I'm sure there are a few exceptions but that general statement golds true for any online community. There are millions upon millions of people that like the Harry Potter franchise, but a tiny fraction of those spend time on HP forum sites. We know that the current subscription numbers are in excess of 500k, although we don't know by how much so I'll use that a working number. So, we have 50 odd hyper-invested regular posters 'representing' 500k overall subs and a significant additional number of Preferred and F2P players. And those regulars have a myriad of views. The majority appear to be negative but that's expected - people don't complain about something they like (more on that at the end) but even within those overall detractors there is a huge range of views of individual subjects.

 

Thirdly - threads in these forums tend to become reinforcing loops of the same people agreeing with each other. The classic "^^^ This" is an example of this. This feeds into both stifling contrary views (people are a lot less likely to voice a minority view, simple fact of social existence) as well as reinforcing the posters' own views that they represent the majority of the playerbase.

 

Lastly, to go back to the point earlier about people not complaining about something they like - it's a simple fact that the vast majority of players of these games come and go in silence. I've played in excess of 10 different MMOs, most of them for multiple years and poured gods know how many hours into them. But I've only ever been active on 2 official forums - this one and CoH. I played WoW for over 7 years but never posted once there and hardly ever even looked at the boards, similar (though less time) for AoC, ESO, EQ, EQ2, FFXIV and others. While the opinions presented here are potentially useful, we all vastly overplay our importance and influence.

[squirrelballz]

Lastly, to go back to the point earlier about people not complaining about something they like - it's a simple fact that the vast majority of players of these games come and go in silence. I've played in excess of 10 different MMOs, most of them for multiple years and poured gods know how many hours into them. But I've only ever been active on 2 official forums - this one and CoH. I played WoW for over 7 years but never posted once there and hardly ever even looked at the boards, similar (though less time) for AoC, ESO, EQ, EQ2, FFXIV and others. While the opinions presented here are potentially useful, we all vastly overplay our importance and influence.

 

I agree there is only so much weight that can be given to a player's opinion and without a doubt people who rage on the forums all the time are more often likely to be taken less seriously. Either way I feel the Devs will continue to do what they think is best for the game even if they are wrong and then will come back weeks or months later and be like well we decided to change it. This seems like the pattern and cycle that exists. One of the things I am curious about is if anyone actually does read suggestion threads and the suggestion box and even pitch some of the good ideas to the Devs and to what extent, perhaps Eric Musco can answer this?

 

Edit: for example this suggestion is something I'm wondering if the Dev's have seen or are thinking about:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=867725

Edited January 30, 2016 by squirrelballz

[SootyTX]

I agree there is only so much weight that can be given to a player's opinion and without a doubt people who rage on the forums all the time are more often likely to be taken less seriously. Either way I feel the Devs will continue to do what they think is best for the game even if they are wrong and then will come back weeks or months later and be like well we decided to change it. This seems like the pattern and cycle that exists. One of the things I am curious about is if anyone actually does read suggestion threads and the suggestion box and even pitch some of the good ideas to the Devs and to what extent, perhaps Eric Musco can answer this?

 

Its a good question. While I don't know explicitly for SWTOR, I was closely involved in early beta for CoH and ongoing for the first 18 months or so of live, and there the devs did certainly read (or most frequently get sent by community reps) ideas from suggestion box type forms.

 

As for making changes that are 'wrong' objectively - I wouldn't say that. They make changes that some players don't like for whatever reason(s) and there are some decisions made that some or all players may not understand but they aren't switching things around for giggles, changes are made for a reason. Sometimes a change may end up being more unpopular than expected, the companion nerf is a great example. The influx of players brought about by KotFE seems to have shifted the demographic of the game more than expected and that led to a far greater reaction to the nerf than was expected, leading to the un-nerf shortly afterwards.

[squirrelballz]

Its a good question. While I don't know explicitly for SWTOR, I was closely involved in early beta for CoH and ongoing for the first 18 months or so of live, and there the devs did certainly read (or most frequently get sent by community reps) ideas from suggestion box type forms.

 

As for making changes that are 'wrong' objectively - I wouldn't say that. They make changes that some players don't like for whatever reason(s) and there are some decisions made that some or all players may not understand but they aren't switching things around for giggles, changes are made for a reason. Sometimes a change may end up being more unpopular than expected, the companion nerf is a great example. The influx of players brought about by KotFE seems to have shifted the demographic of the game more than expected and that led to a far greater reaction to the nerf than was expected, leading to the un-nerf shortly afterwards.

 

Yeah I really would like to know out of curiosity to what extent they read ideas from suggestion box type forms. I also agree with you 2nd paragraph where you talk about changes being there for a reason. I most certainly was also thinking of the companion change and the NIM loot changes and I agree that no one can anticipate how a player base will react to change. It's just frustrating at times to see changes implemented alot of times without it being tested. I would love to test and give feedback for free and I'm sure some there are other players would do the same as well if they care about the game.

 

I don't want my post to be just critical so I'd like to finish off saying that I thought there were several changes that were needed. For example the streamlined leveling was a well thought out idea. I also really liked the changes to companions being usable in any role although I really do miss gearing up my companions but overall I felt it was good change. Lastly I really like the KOTFE story line and the only thing holding me back from getting all my toons into it is I want to see some real consequences for both Light side and Dark side choices. For example I want the light choices to really impact my character in the sense that even though I may be doing good by not killing this person they will go on and end up murdering 10 other people if I don't. Likewise the dark side option being that if I choose to kill someone that could come back to bite me and I could lose a companion because that person had someone who cared about them and took revenge by killing someone my character cared about.

Edited January 30, 2016 by squirrelballz

[Roccobb]

Yeah I really would like to know out of curiosity to what extent they read ideas from suggestion box type forms. I also agree with you 2nd paragraph where you talk about changes being there for a reason. I most certainly was also thinking of the companion change and the NIM loot changes and I agree that no one can anticipate how a player base will react to change. It's just frustrating at times to see changes implemented alot of times without it being tested. I would love to test and give feedback for free and I'm sure some there are other players would do the same as well if they care about the game.

 

I don't want my post to be just critical so I'd like to finish off saying that I thought there were several changes that were needed. For example the streamlined leveling was a well thought out idea. I also really liked the changes to companions being usable in any role although I really do miss gearing up my companions but overall I felt it was good change. Lastly I really like the KOTFE story line and the only thing holding me back from getting all my toons into it is I want to see some real consequences for both Light side and Dark side choices. For example I want the light choices to really impact my character in the sense that even though I may be doing good by not killing this person they will go on and end up murdering 10 other people if I don't. Likewise the dark side option being that if I choose to kill someone that could come back to bite me and I could lose a companion because that person had someone who cared about them and took revenge by killing someone my character cared about.

 

I think PTS was a valuable resource they should have never removed. It allowed us to play test things, and break them in ways that the ones who created the content would have never dreamed of. If we found an exploit on PTS, it allowed them to fix it. And in some cases, it let me play with some exploits, and have a lot of fun with them, without risking getting suspended or banned.

 

I know there are some bugs that they haven't fixed since launch. But, patches had less bugs when they went live when they still had PTS. The fact remains that players will find ways of doing things developers would have never imagined doing them.

[SootyTX]

I think PTS was a valuable resource they should have never removed. It allowed us to play test things, and break them in ways that the ones who created the content would have never dreamed of. If we found an exploit on PTS, it allowed them to fix it. And in some cases, it let me play with some exploits, and have a lot of fun with them, without risking getting suspended or banned.

 

I know there are some bugs that they haven't fixed since launch. But, patches had less bugs when they went live when they still had PTS. The fact remains that players will find ways of doing things developers would have never imagined doing them.

 

Agreed on PTS being a valuable resource. I think they are tied down by the story limiting, or more likely outright preventing, much use of the PTS at the current time unfortunately. While I'm sure it would be potentially possible to pull some of the mechanical changes out and put them on PTS, that would take significant resources and would be far from able to catch all bugs, or even most, as the live patch would be an amalgam of both PTS tested parts and not. They simply can't put each chapter on PTS as that defeats the purpose of the concept.

 

On the upside, 4.1 is supposed to contain a large number of bug fixes.

[squirrelballz]

Agreed on PTS being a valuable resource. I think they are tied down by the story limiting, or more likely outright preventing, much use of the PTS at the current time unfortunately. While I'm sure it would be potentially possible to pull some of the mechanical changes out and put them on PTS, that would take significant resources and would be far from able to catch all bugs, or even most, as the live patch would be an amalgam of both PTS tested parts and not. They simply can't put each chapter on PTS as that defeats the purpose of the concept.

 

On the upside, 4.1 is supposed to contain a large number of bug fixes.

 

I definitely don't know about the resource usage for the PTS so I will defer in this instance to what you are saying about it. I would certainly like to know more about test servers if you have any links or info. Also I am curious have they posted anywhere which bugs they will be fixing because I've come across a few recently that are annoying some alliance ones and other class mission ones?

Edited January 30, 2016 by squirrelballz

[gabigool]

I was closely involved in early beta for CoH and ongoing for the first 18 months or so of live, and there the devs did certainly read (or most frequently get sent by community reps) ideas from suggestion box type forms.

 

That was probably the best dev/community interaction I've seen.

[dscount]

Well I agree and disagree.

 

But as you stated "I'm Salty" about the whole progression of events over the last year. Much like you I have been here four years and yes pretty much did almost everything I could content wise. Story is great, but story will not keep this game afloat alone. NIMGATE was bad move by BW, but not as bad as the run around about OPS "Maybe in Q1 2016" to change to not likely in 2016 at all it seems. Waiting 2 years for new content (OPS) is pretty bad.

 

While I LOVE the Eight Stories with the excellent voice acting I'm very bitter about the scaled down version and removal of the components that (IMHO) made the game better than other MMO's on the market.

 

Our eight story lines appeared to have DIED at SoR and not likely to picked up again. I felt that was at least a TOKEN to keep voice acting alive in the game, but seems we have gone full RPG at this point. Shame as I would have loved to see how the warrior storyline continued, my bounty hunters continued fame/glory and the decisions around seeking forever power in the inquisitor line. What KOTFE did was attempt to make that same type of story continue, but with not all the same things that could have made it great. Plugging in text boxes in places we should have seen voice acting was a bad move (For me at least). I love the story, but I wanted to see those I've invested time into continue and not just drop off like Legacy Benefits, CE/VIP Vendor items and GSF did.

 

Sadly.. I've already cancelled my sub after four awesome years of playing, but I do plan on coming back for at least a month once the entire KOTFE is done. If you have NOT played all eight classes (Start 1 > 50) then you are not getting your monies worth. That is some of the best story content this game offers, but just KOTFE story line and monthly parts added is NOT (I repeat NOT) going to keep people subbed. Just my thoughts folks! Love the game and already miss lots of my guildies that have left the game, but it's time for a break and I'll be back. (So no you can't have my stuff)

Edited January 30, 2016 by dscount

[SootyTX]

That was probably the best dev/community interaction I've seen.

 

It really was, at least at the start. For me they lost the plot when they began turning it into a fantasy trinity game in tights - it lost that epic superhero feel. And to a great extent that appeared to be in reaction to vocal player feedback regarding balance and 'fairness'. There were a lot of dev team changes around the same time iirc and it felt like they had a knee jerk reaction. It was never the same again.

[Mirandel]

I think putting even 1% of the blame on the community is misguided.

 

If the gameplay experience is compelling, people will stay. Nothing in the forums will change that.

 

You are wrong, unfortunately. There are enough posts here and on reddit with loud cry "stop the hate! You make me dislike the game I love!" Because people come to forums to discuss something game-related and instead get "you are still playing that crap? Looser!" This is what all haters do, nothing else.

 

Calling hate over personal preferences "constructive criticism" is a common self-deception, not only in game-community, but most easily flourishing on game-forums.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Mirandel

[vuriosa]

Just posted the following new article on my website:

 

http://www.iamsechari.com/2016/01/30/salt-in-the-kotfe-are-we-just-hurting-ourselves/

 

Drop by and let me know your thoughts.

 

Thanks, all!

 

"To keep the Service a compliant, fun, fair and safe gaming environment for everyone, you may not engage in any of the following behavior:

 

Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including without limitation advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities."

[NuRhoPhi]

the poster is a naive, well-meaning... idiot.

 

That is probably agressive right? But it gets reaction.

Have people forgotten the H2F debacle?

The "this is a L2P issue" "make them pay" etc?

 

These game developpers have 0 respect for (paying) customers.

 

The only way to get change from such people is a riot.

It is a shame, but that is the way things are.

 

 

How often do you see pyrotech or lethality OP in pvp? How is mercenary healing doing in arena settings? Roll stills screws over enemies: repeated teleport, where did the Op go? On which level of the huttball map is he really?

Oh, but last livestream they have the NERVE to ask: which would be best "small class balance changes like last year, or fewer big ones".

What small class balance changes were done since 4.0 launched? They had 3 months. Pyrotech still supposed to channel 3s; lethality has its' own crappy dot-spread..

With each expansion, more crappy & unbalanced abilities are added to the game. Case in point: Sorc Phasewalk, vs backward round for Merc. Still haven't fixed the roll from 2.0.

 

As for the "direction" of the game:

months after the launch of 4.0, resources were allocated to...

create a new, pointless crafting tier,

so that the only way to access the new mats would be missions, or doing KOTFE.

Yup, that sounds like a priority?

 

I'll just very occasionally subscribe to see what they do with this KOTFE,

I made a level 60 char, and deleted him again. ZERO challenge, killing the "emperor" is a cutscene.

Likewise, Shadow of Revan..

Amount of communcations and quality: very subpar.

 

Devs SHOULD face a wall of critique at that point. Take a good look in the mirror; if you were a player instead of a Dev, is this what you'd want to see developped?

 

The GOOD thing 4.0 did was make every companion valid. Sadly, healer >> all; and they removed the comp-specific movesets for it..

Events are broken (bolster to 60 in a 65 operation.. lowbie pvp vs someone with expertise..)

[Calligan]

"To keep the Service a compliant, fun, fair and safe gaming environment for everyone, you may not engage in any of the following behavior:

 

Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including without limitation advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities."

 

In my opinion, "...or other commercial activities" implies that all of the aforementioned items are commercial in some way. You are right that my post was "promotional messaging" in that I wanted to put an article I had written out there ABOUT SWTOR and gather some feedback. As to it being commercial in nature, I don't make a dime from blogging and podcasting about SWTOR. Maybe my stream makes $10 every few months, but that's always a tip from a kind-hearted individual (meaning I offer my stream for free), and the tip is always channeled into giveaways. I don't see how that is commercial in nature.

 

Regardless, if the forum moderators consider my post against the forum terms of service, let them remove it. I won't be offended one bit if it is against the rules.

 

Anyway, I need to go back and look at what you all are saying. I'll comment myself here in a bit.

[Calligan]

Lastly I really like the KOTFE story line and the only thing holding me back from getting all my toons into it is I want to see some real consequences for both Light side and Dark side choices. For example I want the light choices to really impact my character in the sense that even though I may be doing good by not killing this person they will go on and end up murdering 10 other people if I don't. Likewise the dark side option being that if I choose to kill someone that could come back to bite me and I could lose a companion because that person had someone who cared about them and took revenge by killing someone my character cared about.

 

I experienced an instance of this recently not in the KotFE story, oddly enough, but in the regular Sith Warrior story line on Belsavis. There you take out Darth Ekkage with the help of Somminick Timmns, a Jedi master. I was able to force Timms to have to make the very decision you are talking about, and he opted to kill her for the greater good -but he was still conflicted about it and knew it would be something he would have to deal with forever (until I took him out too, of course).

 

But I get what you are saying, Squirrel. Bioware prides themselves on good story. I want to see some complexity! That's one of the things I love about George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thones) series. Characters are never inherently good or evil. There is only self-interest, and they do things for a myriad of reasons that often earn them reputations that are either deserved or undeserved.

 

They simply can't put each chapter on PTS as that defeats the purpose of the concept

 

I agree with this. Like you guys I would love to see them do this wherever possible (like with this pending warzone map). But posting content to the PTS for quality assurance testing also severely deflates the hype, which they are now depending on greatly to drive interest in the game -and by that I mean subscribership.

 

You are wrong, unfortunately. There are enough posts here and on reddit with loud cry "stop the hate! You make me dislike the game I love!" Because people come to forums to discuss something game-related and instead get "you are still playing that crap? Looser!" This is what all haters do, nothing else.

 

Calling hate over personal preferences "constructive criticism" is a common self-deception, not only in game-community, but most easily flourishing on game-forums.

 

I am glad to see some agreement with the gist of my post, actually (who wouldn't, right?) even if it comes as a reaction to what someone else said contrary to my opinion. One thing American Idol Rewind taught me is that people can seriously struggle with self-deception and a lack of a sober-minded grip on reality. Constructive criticism, I feel, is helpful. good-spirited feedback for the purpose of improving the game and avoiding pitfalls. In that sense, even the vitriol-filled posts can be helpful. As they say, "Just because I throw you a fish, it doesn't mean you have to eat the bones." But there is just no need for the rage, in my opinion, no matter how invested a player is. I AGREE WITH THE FRUSTRATION. I am just pointing out the spirit. People need to relax. I am an SWG refugee like many here. I have seen how bad it can get. SWTOR has many things to enjoy and focus on even if a dry spell in a given area is prevalent, bug fixes included.

[ImmortalLowlife]

Good read.

 

Me personally...I've been doing EXACTLY what you suggest since launch. 4yrs of paying a sub without interruption & asking for more story and single player friendly content. I subbed through all the content they've done since launch aimed at group players. Because this is a MMO after all.

 

I've done PvP twice in 4 years, I've never done an OP (except the one at the end of SoR). The only FP's I've done are solo versions. I didn't even do heroics until recently. I realize all these things are necessary in an MMO. But me....I've spent the last 4 years mostly leveling alts thru the vanilla storylines.

 

But swtor also has a LOT of players like me. Players who are here because I loved kotor. Players up until swtor had never touched a MMO.

 

I've enjoyed the game more since SoR than I have since launch. I'm loving KotFE. I'm sure the devs will add more OP's & PvP maps "soon". Lol