Are most new players just plain stupid?

[Jerba]

[snip]

Nice story!

[AlrikFassbauer]

Players are encouraged from character creation onward to have zero accountability towards their own survival.

 

This is what I call Bioware's "push to the end content". People get transported so insanely fast into end content that they don't even get time to learn.

 

As a new player, but one with lots of MMO experience, I understand your frustration. As experienced SWTOR players, maybe you can help me with mine.

 

I'm finding it bloody difficult to figure out how the game balances class interactions given the trivial content I'm hitting. And I'm struggling to figure out how my small family group can go through and do things that are more difficult.

 

Example: this afternoon, the wife and one kid (college age) and I go to do a flashpoint -- the next one in line, Taral V. We want to experience the content as much as we can, so we take the quest from what appears to be the "correct" questgiver (on Balmorra/republic side) and then figure out how to find the cruiser from fleet -- so far so good. But in talking with General not-Yoda each of us end up with a [sOLO] flashpoint in addition to our "complete the flashpoint" quest. And we then struggle to actually start the flashpoint -- it looks like the choices are "solo", "tactical" and "hard mode".

 

So we start it in "tactical" mode (I'm guessing that's "normal") but we have these three droids that trivially destroy anything in our path. So much for planning on tank, healer, ranged DPS and our one (melee) DPS companion. I gave up on tanking, I never could get aggro, so it seemed pointless. I can't imagine how I'd even figure out what "aggro" is if this was my first MMO.

 

Is there a way to play it "correctly" -- meaning tank, healer, 2 DPS? Is that now only for Hard Mode? Can we do Hard Mode while leveling?

 

It's just as frustrating for want-to-be-skilled-players, I promise.

 

Very good point.

 

Shows very, very, very clearly how low-level content gets destroyed to cater high-level and end-level players.

Bioware seems to severely suffer this Curse Of Knowlefdge , too.

 

Well, Bob's narrator explains that very few NiM guilds remain and those that do are on life support. Not to mention the fact that they won't take him cause he has "no NiM experience" which in itself is flawed because how do you get NiM experience to join a NiM guild if they are the only ones who can do NiM? The answer is, these raids have been cleared over and over (at tier) by these guilds and they will not tollerate failing to a 3 year old op which has been level bumped 3 times (*looks at you TFB*). Because of this NiM guild dwindle in numbers and the players that bring the community the Dulfy guides, star parse, parsely, etc. don't play this game anymore and sooner or later won't support this game anymore leaving (recently promoted) "Enlightened" Bob in a swtor world with no dulfy, no parser, no leaderboard, and likely very few successful kill videos explaining how to do said operations.

 

This is the direct result of "Pandering To The Base" :

 

So, just give the fans exactly what they want and everything will work out. Simple, huh?

 

Not quite. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans, but the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active (and louder) they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode without ever making it widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans are screaming on a web forum about how the show is now Ruined FOREVER, which can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The producers may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching (which they will often claim to be) — but "everyone" in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the other, less noisy fans want can differ drastically.

 

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have possibly been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the vocal minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and / or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

 

What has been created is a "closed circle" of NIMH raiders. No-one in, no-one out, knowledge dies out.

 

A new generation of players has to begin anew, because maybe they don't even understand the guides writrten by groups like Zorz. What did they mean with this specific term ? Maybe no-one is left to explain, after some time. Knowledge dies out. Due to NIMH raiders' selfishness to rather leave the game behind then teach a new generation of raiders. Their elitism has made them so much fault-intolerant that they have become inble to play with Newbies cynically put. Or, if they weren't then they wouldn't be so strict against people wanting to learn NIMH raiding. The Curse Of Knowledge has struck them as well.

Edited January 24, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[gabigool]

A new generation of players has to begin anew, because maybe they don't even understand the guides writrten by groups like Zorz. What did they mean with this specific term ? Maybe no-one is left to explain, after some time. Knowledge dies out. Due to NIMH raiders' selfishness to rather leave the game behind then teach a new generation of raiders. Their elitism has made them so much fault-intolerant that they have become inble to play with Newbies cynically put. Or, if they weren't then they wouldn't be so strict against people wanting to learn NIMH raiding. The Curse Of Knowledge has struck them as well.

 

I can't even begin to delve into how wrong this statement is.

 

You've referenced some of the harder-core guilds a few times now, and in some way imply they have either been at fault for the state of the game or have some sort of obligation to bring the rest of the player base up to their level.

 

That would be largely incorrect. Zorz had exactly the same accountability to teach the playerbase as you or I do.

 

None.

 

If you look at the work that went into the guides and how open and friendly all these individuals were when we had questions; how much of their own personal time they spent helping total strangers - you'd be surprised.

 

At the end of the day this is a game. It is supposed to be fun. People should leave when it becomes not-fun. For a lot of those players, the game became not-fun because there was literally nothing left to do that they found fun. How that makes them in some way selfish, I don't know.

 

Get something clear. No one can "teach" you to become a NM Raider. Yes, you can learn things from others, but the only person that can "make" you a NM Raider is you.

 

You're very categorical about people you've never spoken to and know nothing about.

 

When my group began working on Revan, I struggled the first few times on the 3rd floor call outs. I watched a number of videos and still couldn't grasp how some of them were being made. I reached out to the GM of one of these "selfish" (your word) guilds via PM and explained what I was specifically having trouble with, and asked some very specific questions.

 

His response? About 2 pages worth of how he approached it, and some useful tips and video links. In addition to answering my specific questions, he also gave some thoughts and tips on how/why he handled the callouts in a very specific manner. Without question it contributed to our kill.

 

I see this trend where somehow people blame other people/guilds for the state of this game when the blame lies in exactly one place - BW's feet. They have chosen to take a completely irrational approach to true MMO endgame content by eliminating almost the entirety of what most games have leading up to it. End of story.

[SierraBravo]

2. Athiss HM, I'm running heals. 1/3 of the way of a dps sage is throwing out heals and saying that they are both dps and heals because "their gear allows them to." Tank runs into every other mob half dead and dies 5-6 times.

 

 

That sounds like you being a baddie. If you can't keep your tank alive for trash, then maybe you should go play a different game.

[FlameYOL]

I Think So,I Was IN A Lost Island FP The Other Day With A DPS Who Had Healer Relics'-' And 105 Accuracy...We Got TO The End Boss But We Kept Wiping Because Of That Bad-DPS.

[josephinec]

I Think So,I Was IN A Lost Island FP The Other Day With A DPS Who Had Healer Relics'-' And 105 Accuracy...We Got TO The End Boss But We Kept Wiping Because Of That Bad-DPS.

 

The Introduction to Warzones mission gives you BOE implants, earpiece, and two relics, one of which is "Ephemeral Mending", and I've seen a lot of players who literally cannot heal equip it. I've seen Warriors, Knights and Snipers with that dang relic. So it may be either stupidity or just not thinking.

[ATAMIANM]

My take, as a casual player who is now tackling HM operations, is that the SM operations have been nerfed to the point where mechanics can be largely ignored by most new players, assuming they have competent raid partners who know the fights. They don't even seem to read Dulfy or become knowledgeable ahead of time. Their partners carry them and they just don't learn.

 

Last night, I was in a PUG on my healer, where we wiped twice to Draxus because the three newbies didn't understand even the most basic ideas, like interrupting corrupters and prioritizing killing them. Or not standing in front of adds that have cleaves, etc. People were patient explaining the fight to them but they just did not get it. I don't think they even knew what an interrupt was.

 

I always wondered if it were practical to have an ops training mode where the player has to successfully defeat a boss, or boss surrogate, one that forces them to learn mechanics to advance. The training mode would be role specific (healer, tank, dps). Only after defeating this boss would the player be eligible to queue for the op. Probably just a crazy idea.

[LudhaninRolgge]

The Introduction to Warzones mission gives you BOE implants, earpiece, and two relics, one of which is "Ephemeral Mending", and I've seen a lot of players who literally cannot heal equip it. I've seen Warriors, Knights and Snipers with that dang relic. So it may be either stupidity or just not thinking.

 

Consider yourself lucky. I was in a PuG some time ago where we had not one, not two, but three people with epheral mending relic. Two of them had 2 of those relics.

 

I always wondered if it were practical to have an ops training mode where the player has to successfully defeat a boss, or boss surrogate, one that forces them to learn mechanics to advance. The training mode would be role specific (healer, tank, dps). Only after defeating this boss would the player be eligible to queue for the op. Probably just a crazy idea.

 

It would be a really great idea I (and others ) have proposed a few time. But don't limit it to op and extend it to FP in general, with at least 3 levels. Like bronze and you can tag in TFP, silver you can tag in HM FP and gold you can tag in SM ops.

[Felendis]

As a returning player and getting ready to do FPS again but really feeling that bioware messed up on the role restrictions i mean i get they want everyone to get a chance to queue.

 

Just did a hammer station run where i had 3 dps and me( i was the healer), I pull hate easily seeing as i am healing and die pretty quick as the 3 dps can't seem to take the aggro away from me. it ended with just a terrible run in general. now i just feel that FPs aren't good to run anymore and should just stick to heroics to gear up

[Gelious]

This is a tale of a PvE player:

.

Holy ****. You just described me! Well except the beginning, since I played since launch and did FP before OP companions, tacticals, god-droid and solo-mode.

But the rest... the rest is spot on! Literally, exactly. I am that mildly adept bob, who found a nice helpful raiding guild, and got destroyed by HM Draxus (just last week wiped many times on him)

So shall I continue to attemp HM raiding or give up?.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Gelious

[LudhaninRolgge]

Holy ****. You just described me! Well except the beginning, since I played since launch and did FP before OP companions, tacticals, god-droid and solo-mode.

But the rest... the rest is spot on! Literally, exactly. I am that mildly adept bob, who found a nice helpful raiding guild, and got destroyed by HM Draxus (just last week wiped many times on him)

So shall I continue to attemp HM raiding or give up?.

 

Depend on what you want. If you're happy to farm EV and KP, don't bother. If you want the challenge and think you and your guild can up your game together to down Draxus and go even higher, do it.

[Joran-Koon]

So shall I continue to attemp HM raiding or give up?.

If you've never done any of the content and its still new to you and you have a good group you like to run with then I would say continue. It doesn't hurt. What will hurt you is the structure BW has given you to work with. You're going to reach a plateau and from there you'll have to decide where you want to go.

 

And to the S-key kid, I don't know what you think you know about me or anyone else in zorz, but if you whole-heartedly believe we were elitist and unwilling to help a younger, less experienced raider, There is nothing more we can do to convince you otherwise. EVERY SINGLE PERSON with a HM revan kill has it by using the floor 3 zorz strat. Yolo spent hours and hours with twitch followers helping people out. Raulos spent hours on the guides. Mari and Iaxle still do star parse and parsley, Freaky, sorvali and I (who still play the game) raid with multiple guilds and helped them in their progression. This doesn't even consider the number our members who did class guides for dulfy for everyone to use.

Figuratively done everything we could for the community and although it is appreciated BW acknowledged the individuals of the world first revan kill (both times), they have decided to focus the game away from our area of expertise. That choice does not mean we NEED to teach a new generation anything because frankly, there's nothing left to teach. The guides are there. And until there is trail blazing to do and PTS testing to be done, we're done. Now shift your blame appropriately.

[DarthZaul]

Yup.

 

I've seen a guy that doesn't even know what a rotation is. He spams death from above and sweeping blasters with a few blazing bolts on single target bosses and spams tracer missile on groups of adds.

 

That's pretty much the standard for new story players.

Edited January 25, 2016 by DarthZaul

[AlrikFassbauer]

Well, Bob's narrator explains that very few NiM guilds remain and those that do are on life support. Not to mention the fact that they won't take him cause he has "no NiM experience" which in itself is flawed because how do you get NiM experience to join a NiM guild if they are the only ones who can do NiM? The answer is, these raids have been cleared over and over (at tier) by these guilds and they will not tollerate failing to a 3 year old op which has been level bumped 3 times (*looks at you TFB*).

 

Found this reply today regarding NIMH raiding :

 

1) When doing that kind of high level play, you need players that are able to perform on that level. You don't want to waste time teaching them everything.

 

I really, really, really like the last sentence in that quote !

[Narasil]

Nah just ignorant mostly. What's stupid is to expect everyone in a group in a FP like...oh say Attack on Tython to go left, jump up a cliff and bypass content...and then have the gall to get pissed at them. THAT'S stupid....

 

If you're pugging and not in a guild group do NOT expect people to know stuff like that, moreover don't expect them to DO it even if they do know it. They might actually....well...want to do something crazy like play the content.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Narasil

[SierraBravo]

If you're pugging and not in a guild group do NOT expect people to know stuff like that.

 

Yeah! It's so hard to follow the leader. You need an IQ of at least, like, four to be able to do that and that's just expecting way too much from some people.

[Narasil]

Yeah! It's so hard to follow the leader. You need an IQ of at least, like, four to be able to do that and that's just expecting way too much from some people.

 

Because you've never got lost in an FP have you....LMFAO.

 

Besides, like I said, it doesn't matter if they can or can't. It doesn't matter if they want to or don't, to expect someone to bypass content they're not bored with to suit YOU isn't so much stupid as it is astoundingly arrogant...but your style does seem to typify that personality flaw.

[josephinec]

Nah just ignorant mostly. What's stupid is to expect everyone in a group in a FP like...oh say Attack on Tython to go left, jump up a cliff and bypass content...and then have the gall to get pissed at them. THAT'S stupid....

 

If you're pugging and not in a guild group do NOT expect people to know stuff like that, moreover don't expect them to DO it even if they do know it. They might actually....well...want to do something crazy like play the content.

 

I have no problem with skipping trash. My Commando did that with her PUG last night in Battle of Ilum. But, I paid enough attention to realize, "oh hey, we're skipping some trash mobs". Some people don't realize this( I work in retail, so I know people don't pick up on signs), or if they're lower level, they may want to clear some trash for the XP.

That being said I see both sides. Players should say whether or not to clear trash.

Heh, at least I'm not the Sentinel in the aforementioned PUG, who had a DPS Guardian PVP set bonus and two healing relics.

[SierraBravo]

Because you've never got lost in an FP have you....LMFAO.

 

Besides, like I said, it doesn't matter if they can or can't. It doesn't matter if they want to or don't, to expect someone to bypass content they're not bored with to suit YOU isn't so much stupid as it is astoundingly arrogant...but your style does seem to typify that personality flaw.

 

Hey, someone wants to clear trash for the bonus or XP? Fine. Someone wants to skip trash? Also fine. I couldn't care less since I'm a healer. My only expectation if people pull trash is that they pull multiple mobs to give me something to do. And I honestly have no idea what "style" you're referring to.

[JMCA]

This thread reeks of pseudo-elitist scrubbery.

[Overmind]

...

Answer: affirmative.

 

Some dudes wanted to to DPHM last night.

I joined them a as a H. Thought if they do DPHM they must be above average at least.

From the other 7 only 1 had any clue about the op and sufficient gear for it.

 

Tanks didnt know how to actually arrive to the op (except walking all the way). Then 1 started to pull to clear mobs.

While I stunned an interrogator, the other H shoot mob instead of using a stun.

A sent was tanking the mobs (which I appreciated and healed him). Worked fine until another shadow dmg pulled the 2 creatures that must be tanked separately or they over-buff.

 

I exited group after that.

[Torvai]

I really, really, really like the last sentence in that quote !

 

This really only applies to the highest level of playing.

My guild for example cleared most of the content at it's original level. We still took people that didn't have the experience. When we liked them and saw that they have potential. So if you're just casually raiding HM/NiM without any means of being the best/first/whatever, no one cares if you already have the experience. What these groups, like my own, care about is that you fit into the group on a social level and you show potential and are willing to learn and they gladly teach you.

But if you're going for world first kills and the like, you need people that already know what they're doing. Especially in a game like this, where the real progress race always began on the PTS and generelly, the first to log in after patch day where the first to clear the content.

It's not like you can simply apply to the FC Barcelona and expect to be taken simply because you know how a football looks like. They expect you to have the skill and experience. But if you're going to your local soccer club? They take you no problem. It's basically the same thing.

 

And this right here x10000:

I can't even begin to delve into how wrong this statement is.

 

You've referenced some of the harder-core guilds a few times now, and in some way imply they have either been at fault for the state of the game or have some sort of obligation to bring the rest of the player base up to their level.

 

That would be largely incorrect. Zorz had exactly the same accountability to teach the playerbase as you or I do.

 

None.

 

If you look at the work that went into the guides and how open and friendly all these individuals were when we had questions; how much of their own personal time they spent helping total strangers - you'd be surprised.

 

At the end of the day this is a game. It is supposed to be fun. People should leave when it becomes not-fun. For a lot of those players, the game became not-fun because there was literally nothing left to do that they found fun. How that makes them in some way selfish, I don't know.

 

Get something clear. No one can "teach" you to become a NM Raider. Yes, you can learn things from others, but the only person that can "make" you a NM Raider is you.

 

You're very categorical about people you've never spoken to and know nothing about.

 

When my group began working on Revan, I struggled the first few times on the 3rd floor call outs. I watched a number of videos and still couldn't grasp how some of them were being made. I reached out to the GM of one of these "selfish" (your word) guilds via PM and explained what I was specifically having trouble with, and asked some very specific questions.

 

His response? About 2 pages worth of how he approached it, and some useful tips and video links. In addition to answering my specific questions, he also gave some thoughts and tips on how/why he handled the callouts in a very specific manner. Without question it contributed to our kill.

 

I see this trend where somehow people blame other people/guilds for the state of this game when the blame lies in exactly one place - BW's feet. They have chosen to take a completely irrational approach to true MMO endgame content by eliminating almost the entirety of what most games have leading up to it. End of story.

 

Most of the really good players I've met ingame and on the forums are very polite and helpful if you have questions about something specific. What they're actually doing is to tell people that come to the forums and whine about just how hard anything is, to l2p. But if you're not like "X is to hard" but instead go like "I can't do X, what am I doing wrong?" they'll help you.

The people that normally display the elitism that you(Alrik) dislike so much aren't the top tier players. They're just some above average players that think they are the best.

 

Well, and some hobby trolls like me

 

 

And @thread: No, most players aren't more stupid than everyone else was when he/she first started playing swtor or MMOs(or both).

Maybe nowaydays there are more people with some "I know it all" attittude that refuse to take advise, don't know. But I highly doubt it. It's just that you remember them more than the hundreds or thousands of players you meet daylie that simply play and don't do overly stupid things.

It's like with the weird people in GF thread: It's only the bad experiences posted there. Like some german wow player and youtuber once said: "90% of all pugs aren't noteworthy. You say hi, buff the group, clear the instance and say your goodbye. It's the other 10% that everyone remembers"

Edited January 26, 2016 by Torvai

[tharbison]

Regarding skipping content in FP's, I don't get why some folks are so vocal about it. Had someone who was screaming to skip content actually leave our group last night when two others said they wanted to clear everything for xp.

 

Can almost make the argument it's quicker to clear sometimes. Or better strategy in case someone dies later on and needs to catch back up with the group. Hopefully in that scenario, a sleep dart wasn't needed to skip content, otherwise at that point the whole group has to double back to get the person who died.

 

And invariably someone in the group accidentally grabs aggro when trying to thread the needle/skip content, catching the whole group off guard and maybe causing a frustrating wipe. Just seems like it would be so much easier to just kill stuff!

Edited January 26, 2016 by tharbison

[aerockyul]

Regarding skipping content in FP's, I don't get why some folks are so vocal about it. Had someone who was screaming to skip content actually leave our group last night when two others said they wanted to clear everything for xp.

 

Can almost make the argument it's quicker to clear sometimes. Or better strategy in case someone dies later on and needs to catch back up with the group. Hopefully in that scenario, a sleep dart wasn't needed to skip content, otherwise at that point the whole group has to double back to get the person who died.

 

And invariably someone in the group accidentally grabs aggro when trying to thread the needle/skip content, catching the whole group off guard and maybe causing a frustrating wipe. Just seems like it would be so much easier to just kill stuff!

 

I've been in several situations where people want to take shortcuts and it requires "threading the needle" to not pull the mob, and what usually happens is a wipe DOES occur because someone pulls a mob that we're skipping that may be at the tail end or head of another mob, pull both mobs, and everyone is spread out too far to mitigate it quickly enough. So we now all have to run back from the start of the area, in more than the amount of time it would have taken to just kill both mobs on their own.

[PLynkes]

For my money it is almost always quicker to just kill the trash in a PUG. Someone always manages to aggro something, and you then have to clear the trash anyway, except with everyone all strung out and not in a position to quickly help out.