Concentration/Fury PVE Info

[Strref]

I've dug around a bit and it's a real pain in the rear to find detailed PVE info on this spec in 4.0. I'm assuming given what appears to be relatively minor changes from 3 to 4 that much of the 3-related info still applies. However, I have a number of questions as to its workability.

 

The suggested strengths of this spec seem to be the following:

 

Instantly accessible, very hard bursts.

Mobility

AOE

 

The spec is beautiful for world PVE/soloing/leveling. I respecced out of Combat, as I was finding its rotations too slow to ramp up for trash mobs, and haven't regretted it since. Leap, press a couple buttons, half the trash in the map has evaporated. It's beautiful (okay, I may be exaggerating slightly).

 

The usefulness for PVP is also quite obvious with the hard bursts, higher defenses and mobility. This is quite well-covered.

 

The questions I have remaining are the following.

 

1) The design and stated flavor of the spec seem to suggest it is the spec for Sentinel/Marauder AOE. Does it parse higher than Combat AOE? What about in comparison to other classes? I can certainly see utility for a hard hitting AOE class that can also quickly shift paradigms to burst down a single target, but only if raid/instance design has been set up in such a way where this sort of ability is valuable.

 

2) Is this Sent/Mara's sleeper semi-tank? It certainly has defensive advantages over the other specs, and both easily accessible large AOE and instantly accessible high single target burst can be useful for grabbing aggro. The defensively oriented utility skills also seem to synergize nicely with it. While I imagine you want a 'real' tank in the most demanding of content, have others had good luck using this as a high damage 'pseudo tank'?

 

Thanks!

[Ioue]

Beautiful? Idk, but I do love playing as my Fury.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a lot of people playing as a Fury class; mostly Anni & Carnage. And a lot of people ask "which is better, Anni or Carnage?" given that mara and its specializations are nothing but dps. Personally, I haven't played all of the specialization to make a 100% informed opinion, however, I chose Fury because it seemed the most "hardy" and with high survival on paper (but this was before 4.0 when I chose it).

 

Now that I'm really into the class, I am very much agreeing with the proposed strengths: AoE, hard bursts, and instant rage use. There is also a lot of skills that debuffs and a bit of range to the attacks that I really like, useful for mobs in PvE.

 

Fury also has that one skill that does a 10% boost to Ops groups, but I haven't done any Ops/FP with my Fury yet, so I can't tell its usefulness. I think Fury would work well in situations where there's a lot of mobs and adds, but not against bosses. Don't think it's a sleeper semi-tank/pseudo tank - my Fury is pretty weak without heals and tanks.

[Ardarell_Solo]

 

1) The design and stated flavor of the spec seem to suggest it is the spec for Sentinel/Marauder AOE. Does it parse higher than Combat AOE? What about in comparison to other classes? I can certainly see utility for a hard hitting AOE class that can also quickly shift paradigms to burst down a single target, but only if raid/instance design has been set up in such a way where this sort of ability is valuable.

 

It's actually the lowest sustained parsing AoE spec of the three. The best sustained AoE is Watchman via "jumping" Dotspread (i.e. Dots jumping back and forth between mobs in a group without ever having to reapply them). Second best is Combat via automatic Ataru hits from spammable AoE. Combat has the best burst AoE. Concentration has better burst AoE than Watchman (as you rightly pointed out there is no setup time) but worse than Combat and it has the lowest sustained AoE - though it's still pretty good sustained AoE.

 

One thing in favour of Concentration is that it is more unfogiving concerning positioning: It's easier to hit mobs correctly with Force Sweep than it is with Combat's spammable frontal cone AoE cleave and easier than Watchman dotspread that demands you to constantly track which of the mobs has dots and when they run out so you now from which mob to spread back to which mob.

 

2) Is this Sent/Mara's sleeper semi-tank? It certainly has defensive advantages over the other specs, and both easily accessible large AOE and instantly accessible high single target burst can be useful for grabbing aggro. The defensively oriented utility skills also seem to synergize nicely with it. While I imagine you want a 'real' tank in the most demanding of content, have others had good luck using this as a high damage 'pseudo tank'?

 

That would be Watchman, simply because of its self healing capability. For that reason it is also the best spec to do more difficult solo content (like heroic star fortress or Eternal Championship coming up). Combat is most squishy, Concentration is a little bit better.

 

But generally you're an ok tank substitute for short periods of time if you know how to handle your Defensive Cooldowns correctly. And we have lots ot them: Rebuke should be used on Cooldown when tanking, Saber Ward for periods of strong continuous damage incoming, Pacify to completely negate the opponents strongest (white damage) attacks (even possible with a lot of adds in ops), of course interrupt if possible, if not sometimes hard stunning via stasis or Awe help, Force Camouflage to drop aggro and mitigate 50% incoming damage and last but not least Guarded by the Force as a last resort.

 

If you're good at handling those correctly it doesn't matter much which spec you're in :-)

 

Have fun!

[teclado]

Yeah, Fury/Conc has a very small niche: solo queue pvp and solo leveling mob smashing. For everything else, Anni/Watch and Carnage/Combat are better.

 

For group pvp (with a healer), Carnage/Combat has higher burst and better sustained damage. Anni/Watch can put a lot of sustained dps pressure on an opposing healer.

 

For operations, Anni/Watch parses highest, followed by Carnage/Combat. Fury/Conc is significantly behind.

 

Since the people who write most of the guides are into operations, you won't find a guide for Fury/Conc - nobody brings a Fury/Conc to an operation and expects to do well. It's one of the lowest parsing specs in the game. It's workable for SM and maybe some HM, but you are gimping yourself, and at some point you will have to switch.

 

With all that said, I mostly play Fury/Conc in pvp. When you are playing solo, you really need that 6 second CC immunity. I really enjoy the spec, but I play Anni or Carnage when I am running operations.

[E-Zekiel]

It's actually the lowest sustained parsing AoE spec of the three.

 

Wanted to point out something on this note - while on sustained fights, this is true, on burst fights...well, concentration has the highest AOE burst, courtesy auto crits.

 

I really dislike watchman/annihilation because its burst is so awful, which to me makes it useless outside of raiding and hard mode bosses. To me, unless you're a dedicated raider, the spec isn't worth it.

 

I would also argue that it does not outweigh the other two for most fights for survivability. For sustained solo boss fights, the healing will come in handy. For your average fight, trash fights, etc, having the burst to kill them quickly will save your more time and help you survive more than the ability to slowly heal over time, given how abysmal watchman burst is, relative to the other specs.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Wanted to point out something on this note - while on sustained fights, this is true, on burst fights...well, concentration has the highest AOE burst, courtesy auto crits.

 

That's what I thought, too, until I parsed it out both in planetary leveling content and ops (best example is Revanite Commanders HM): Cyclone Slash with Precision and Zen surpasses Concentration's burst AoE, partly because under Zen Cyclone Slash only costs 1 focus and is extremely fast, so you can do 5 or 6 of them in very short time. In Concentration your AoE after that one Smash autocrit is actually not that great. So yeah, if we're talking mobs that die from that first Smash it would be true. But with level sync these days that's hardly the case anymore. And anything that lives for at least 5 secs is actually burnt down quicker in Combat. I came to that conclusion after saying the same you did and was told otherwise by fellow Sents. Trying out both I had to admit they're right.

 

But: I personally enjoy Concentration a lot more than I enjoy Combat (partly because, as I pointed out, positioning for Smash is easier than for Cyclone Slash). So when I do fun stuff where it doesn't really matter (speaking everything non HM Ops) I rather go Concentration for burst than Combat. But on bosses like e.g. Calphayus NiM and the burst requirement there, you should definitely go Combat, it's just stronger in burst as well as in sustained AoE.

 

Meaning:

 

Burst AoE:

1. Combat

2. Concentration

3. Watchman

 

Sustained AoE:

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

Single Target Burst:

1. Concentration (Yes, better than Combat, that's because no setup time at all. Combat is bursty after 3 GCDs, admitting that what comes next is stronger than Concentration)

2. Combat

3. Watchman

 

Single Target Sustained:

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

My favourite Sent specs:

(0. Watchman 2.X.)

1. Concentration

2. Watchman

3. Combat

 

My actually most played Sent PvE specs (ops):

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

My favourite specs to play across all classes (dps):

1. Sentinel Concentration

2. Sage Telekinetics

3. Shadow Infiltration

4. Gunslinger Sabotage

5. Guardian Vigilance

6. Sentinel Watchman

7. Gunslinger Virulence

8. Commando Gunnery

9. Vanguard Tactics

10. Gunslinger Marksman

11. Scoundrel Scrapper

12. Sentinel Combat

13. Commando Assault Specialist

14. Shadow Serenity

15. Sage Balance

[Asaxor]

For group pvp (with a healer), Carnage/Combat has higher burst and better sustained damage. Anni/Watch can put a lot of sustained dps pressure on an opposing healer.

How much burst does Carnage have? I only play fury mara (never played this class before so I don't know the other specs yet) and burst seems good with for instance 10k obliterate + 17k slice + 15k burst. Delivery time: 3s. 40-42k dmg in that timeframe seems like pretty good burst, especially because you're going to repeat that a few seconds later.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Asaxor

[g_mK]

That's what I thought, too, until I parsed it out both in planetary leveling content and ops (best example is Revanite Commanders HM): Cyclone Slash with Precision and Zen surpasses Concentration's burst AoE, partly because under Zen Cyclone Slash only costs 1 focus and is extremely fast, so you can do 5 or 6 of them in very short time. In Concentration your AoE after that one Smash autocrit is actually not that great. So yeah, if we're talking mobs that die from that first Smash it would be true. But with level sync these days that's hardly the case anymore. And anything that lives for at least 5 secs is actually burnt down quicker in Combat. I came to that conclusion after saying the same you did and was told otherwise by fellow Sents. Trying out both I had to admit they're right.

 

But: I personally enjoy Concentration a lot more than I enjoy Combat (partly because, as I pointed out, positioning for Smash is easier than for Cyclone Slash). So when I do fun stuff where it doesn't really matter (speaking everything non HM Ops) I rather go Concentration for burst than Combat. But on bosses like e.g. Calphayus NiM and the burst requirement there, you should definitely go Combat, it's just stronger in burst as well as in sustained AoE.

 

Meaning:

 

Burst AoE:

1. Combat

2. Concentration

3. Watchman

 

Sustained AoE:

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

Single Target Burst:

1. Concentration (Yes, better than Combat, that's because no setup time at all. Combat is bursty after 3 GCDs, admitting that what comes next is stronger than Concentration)

2. Combat

3. Watchman

 

Single Target Sustained:

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

My favourite Sent specs:

(0. Watchman 2.X.)

1. Concentration

2. Watchman

3. Combat

 

My actually most played Sent PvE specs (ops):

1. Watchman

2. Combat

3. Concentration

 

My favourite specs to play across all classes (dps):

1. Sentinel Concentration

2. Sage Telekinetics

3. Shadow Infiltration

4. Gunslinger Sabotage

5. Guardian Vigilance

6. Sentinel Watchman

7. Gunslinger Virulence

8. Commando Gunnery

9. Vanguard Tactics

10. Gunslinger Marksman

11. Scoundrel Scrapper

12. Sentinel Combat

13. Commando Assault Specialist

14. Shadow Serenity

15. Sage Balance

 

People tend to underestimate combat's AOE. One thing I will note is that depending on fight, combat AOE is better than watchman. If you have a group with already strong AOE component then your watchman DOT's will not run their full duration (commanders HM comes to mind). If on the other hand your group lacks AOE or the adds simply have lots of HP then Watchman is better. As always don't listen to me since I will sing praises about combat as the best all around spec (opinion not fact:D) with good sustained, AOE and burst.

[Ardarell_Solo]

As always don't listen to me since I will sing praises about combat as the best all around spec (opinion not fact:D) with good sustained, AOE and burst.

 

That made me lol! You know, I really like how passionate you are about Combat - kinda the same I used to be about Watchman :-)

 

You're right though, by sustained AoE I meant mobs like the trash pulls you get in ToS up until Sword Squadron and in the room leading to Revan. Watchman's a bit ahead of Combat on those (tried both there several times, was curious). To surpass Combat AoE Watchman Dots not only have to run their full duration: You need to ge the chance to spread back again at least once, so you can spam Cyclone without refreshing dots again and thus making the most of the "Dot refreshment without reapplying Dots"-trick. Which means we're talking 22ish seconds at least. Meaning Watchman AoE is best ONLY on those ridiculous ToS mobs ^^

Edited January 19, 2016 by Ardarell_Solo

[Ardarell_Solo]

How much burst does Carnage have? I only play fury mara (never played this class before so I don't know the other specs yet) and burst seems good with for instance 10k obliterate + 17k slice + 15k burst. Delivery time: 3s. 40-42k dmg in that timeframe seems like pretty good burst, especially because you're going to repeat that a few seconds later.

 

I just checked one of my good Combat parses. In the opener it was:

36675 from Blade Dance + Dot + Ataru Hits

21805 from Clashing Blast

 

That's 58480, delivered in 2.81 secs

 

A few things to note about that: Zen buffing Alacrity significantly shortens the GCD for Combat, which is a big contribution to its "burstiness".

 

Also you'd need to define what you mean by "bursty": Are we talking about how much DPS you can do from the very first moment of engaging an enemy? In that case Concentration is ahead, you just pop Zen, go Zealous Leap, Concentrated Burst, Concentrated Slice.

 

However, if we're talking about how much DPS you can deliver midfight if you prepare for certain windows? Than it would be Combat by saving Precision, Zen and Blade Dance to release them on command. In that area Combat is way ahead of Concentration.

[Strref]

I just checked one of my good Combat parses. In the opener it was:

36675 from Blade Dance + Dot + Ataru Hits

21805 from Clashing Blast

 

That's 58480, delivered in 2.81 secs

 

A few things to note about that: Zen buffing Alacrity significantly shortens the GCD for Combat, which is a big contribution to its "burstiness".

 

Also you'd need to define what you mean by "bursty": Are we talking about how much DPS you can do from the very first moment of engaging an enemy? In that case Concentration is ahead, you just pop Zen, go Zealous Leap, Concentrated Burst, Concentrated Slice.

 

However, if we're talking about how much DPS you can deliver midfight if you prepare for certain windows? Than it would be Combat by saving Precision, Zen and Blade Dance to release them on command. In that area Combat is way ahead of Concentration.

 

I have to admit that I think of burst as immediately available hard damage on demand. Combat/Carnage definitely has earth-shattering kabooms but requires buildup and specific timing within rotations for optimal output rather than just hammer a couple keys and boom, damage done. As such, it's my personal preference to think of it as spike-heavy DPS rather than true 'burst', as the applications are quite different.

 

Good things about up front burst like Concentration/Fury:

 

Instant threat removal (if your burst rotation can get the job done faster than the long term DPS)

Instant pressure/panic (PvP)

Simplicity (Usually)

Resilience to interrupts/rotation breaking/target switching

 

Good things about spike-heavy DPS like Combat/Carnage:

 

Removal of tough adds or specific non-boss targets quickly

Inflicting large amounts of damage during vulnerability windows (if a fight uses such mechanics)

Being able to drive momentum shifts (PvP)

 

The difference between the two is more stark in world PvE/leveling. I find that, even in heroics/leveling where you run into more elite mobs, while Combat/Carnage has good up front damage Concentration/Fury is just better. Throw in two jump abilities on very forgiving CDs for mobility and the ability to keep constant focus uptime with Zen and you can literally hop between encounter to encounter and explode them within seconds. Meanwhile in a lot of world/leveling PvE content Combat/Carnage isn't even into the fun part of its rotation by the time the encounter is over.

 

PvP also shows this advantage to an extent, though a well-played type like Combat/Carnage with good group synergy also has a defined niche.

 

That said, I still haven't changed my opinion that Sentinel/Marauder is trying to stretch too much of the same roles over 3 different specs, but that's a discussion for another topic.

 

Anyhow, the information here has been most helpful. Thanks!

[Ardarell_Solo]

I have to admit that I think of burst as immediately available hard damage on demand. Combat/Carnage definitely has earth-shattering kabooms but requires buildup and specific timing within rotations for optimal output rather than just hammer a couple keys and boom, damage done. As such, it's my personal preference to think of it as spike-heavy DPS rather than true 'burst', as the applications are quite different.

 

Good things about up front burst like Concentration/Fury:

 

Instant threat removal (if your burst rotation can get the job done faster than the long term DPS)

Instant pressure/panic (PvP)

Simplicity (Usually)

Resilience to interrupts/rotation breaking/target switching

 

Good things about spike-heavy DPS like Combat/Carnage:

 

Removal of tough adds or specific non-boss targets quickly

Inflicting large amounts of damage during vulnerability windows (if a fight uses such mechanics)

Being able to drive momentum shifts (PvP)

 

The difference between the two is more stark in world PvE/leveling. I find that, even in heroics/leveling where you run into more elite mobs, while Combat/Carnage has good up front damage Concentration/Fury is just better. Throw in two jump abilities on very forgiving CDs for mobility and the ability to keep constant focus uptime with Zen and you can literally hop between encounter to encounter and explode them within seconds. Meanwhile in a lot of world/leveling PvE content Combat/Carnage isn't even into the fun part of its rotation by the time the encounter is over.

 

PvP also shows this advantage to an extent, though a well-played type like Combat/Carnage with good group synergy also has a defined niche.

 

That said, I still haven't changed my opinion that Sentinel/Marauder is trying to stretch too much of the same roles over 3 different specs, but that's a discussion for another topic.

 

Anyhow, the information here has been most helpful. Thanks!

 

I agree. That's why somebody said Concentration has a niche in clearing up mobs in planetary levelling and PvP In Ops it's always about creating dps spikes on demand while having done "normal" dps in the phases prior to that. Fury's zero setup opening burst is just not relevant in ops, but creating dps spikes and exact moments in the fight is very often.

 

However, I wish it wasn't so, as I like Concentration a lot more than Combat :-)