Focus/Rage and Conc/Fury (for Sent/Mara) are both great for soloing/heroics and clearing world trash, and also have a role/use as a bursty pvp spec (I think they could be better, but they're at least fun/usable). However, for late game content -- HM & NM ops, any HM FP with a DPS race -- they're pretty inferior, coming in as a couple of the lowest parsing DPS specs in the game. On top of that, they don't really have any tools or party role on top of that in PvE to justify the lack of DPS. Just kinda dead weight compared to bringing one of the other two Sent/Mara specs or Vig/Ven.

I agree we're in a good place for PvE (excepting conc/fury). PvP-wise I think we need some fine tuning. We can be amazing with the right support but with limited support we collapse sometimes worse than squishier classes, simply because we're inherently exposed. It's kinda the risk of having proactive DCD's like Sent--great for PvE, good on paper for PvP but unreliable in practice. That's why all of my proposed changes are to utilities -- there's too many useless ones, too many that need to be merged with another, too many 'required' ones that should simply be a part of the ability they're modifying. Keep in mind the actually proposed changes I've made are pretty minor.

I agree, I just want to reshuffle the utilities. Transcendence non-centering every 30 second use: This should just be merged into the ability. I can't think of a reason for that to 'not' be the default mechanic for the ability other than to give us a permanently locked in talent spend. The root break + speed boost should be a utility and remain heroic. I have 0 problems with this. The blade blitz root break should be moved to skillful, imo. Shares too much competition with heroic tier utils that give much more than just a root break on a 45-50 second CD ability. In skillful it'd be an interesting alternative.

Maybe you could say we feel Sages being OP more than most as we have a rather strong obligation to deal with them? That said, my problem with transcendence is it's an obligatory 2 utility spend, just like pursuit + reach (imo said merged util should be heroic). My opinion on transcendence is that the '30 seconds/no centering' should just be the default mechanic for the skill--I don't think I've ever seen it used otherwise in either PvP or PvE. Another problem I have is that we do have another root break that applies to blade blitz that I'd really like to be able to take/use, but both of our root breaks are heroic tier, and the transcendence one is just blatantly better. Keep fleetfooted where it is and move cut loose to skillful tier. Then I would say we could have a build that looks like: Skillful: Cut Loose, Debilitation, Unwavering Resolve Masterful: Incisor/Pulse, Force Fade Heroic: Fleetfooted, Reining Pursuit The "Kite This" build.

We have one, it's just split between 2 utilities right now (1 heroic), which is stupid. I doubt you disagree on that point, though.

Snipping this only because I want to address a particular issue/concern at the moment rather than any individual point. Suffice to say I enjoy your counterpoints and agree with several of them, and on the whole appreciate intelligent discussion. As to the objective of adding self-heal, it's not a matter of short term durability. Everything I've proposed isn't going to make a significant difference in surviving a focus/burst/etc. This is long term pressure relief/nag recovery, and at should be treated as supplementary. Why? Because I think Sent/Mara needs a little more ability to lay down consistent damage in PvP. Outside of Conc/Fury, which is just bad outside of its burst and gravity vortex, the solution to this is not to add more damage or DPS--that would overtool us for PvE the same way that Sage is overtooled for PvP now. Rather, some long term recovery/pressure relief in turn means we can stick around that much longer to crank out offense where it's needed. The solution is not to modify or add to our DCD's either, because that would add to our burst/focus/short term survival, which again also risks overtooling us. I think sometimes we get a little too obsessed with seeing "big numbers right now" and selecting the utilities that solely modify that (this applies to any spec). It's not that I don't think some utils suck; quite the opposite, just check my utilities thread. Sent/Mara has a lot of stinkers. At the same time, sometimes that extra 5-10% health recovered or preserved, as little as it seems from a numbers-without-context perspective, is the difference between life and death--and how much DPS did you lose out on in the, say, half a minute that you were dead, waiting for forcefield to drop, and running back to whatever engagement? The fact is, there's not a single correct answer to this--nor should there be! Ideally, there should be a time and a place for both--sometimes the immediate damage is desirable and sometimes the staying power is desirable. I've got a little past my own "big numbers" obsession and found that even if I'm doing less total damage per game, sometimes extra durability means I'm sticking around long enough to do damage where it's needed, when it's needed. In the end, I'm in agreement with the camp that says we need a little more DPS in PvP--but I think adding to our theoretical DPS capability is the wrong way to go due to PvE balance. Likewise, adding to our (already solid) DCD's will end up being destructive (the nerf usually hits harder than the buff). Thus, the solution, in my opinion, lies in pressure relief/long term sustain, which generally = limited self heal capability. The other possibility worth discussing is our limited CC break toolkit. We aren't Guards/Juggs, but we're pretty easily and effectively kited by someone that has a decent idea of our toolkit. If you have an opinion here, I've missed it--I'm curious what you think.

If you're playing a "for the Republic!" sort of Jedi who dips dark side for a "greater good" sort of justification rather than full on "unlimited power" then he's really the only companion choice that meshes with you. Scourge hates the Republic and Jedi authority too much, T7 gets sad and confused, Kira gets angry, and Doc gets emo. I guess your ship droid is sort of an indifferent sycophant. I think Rusk is intended to be a sad/ironic character--in his zeal to serve the Republic, he betrays its ideals. The "problem" with him (outside of a somewhat bland personality) is that he doesn't really work for "full on darkside" or "full on lightside" characters, which I believe the majority of people play for min/max reasons. I like to think that due to his repeatedly stated admiration for the Jedi (or at least aspects), that my fully light side Jedi keeps him around hoping to be a good influence on him and free his noble traits from his dark side tendencies. This has the added benefit of no longer endangering people under his command. It's a shame the writing/game doesn't allow you to have a bigger impact on your companions or their outlooks/alignment--redeem Scourge, turn T7 into an Assasstromech droid, etc.

Yes! For one, it lets you play the class style that you like on both factions, so that's certainly invaluable. Also, you get to experience the Warrior story, which imo is one of the better ones in the game--particularly, it has possibly the best LS empire story. I don't know if you have a gender bias for your characters, but the female Jugg for both DS and LS options is one of my favorites in the game.

I mostly intended this for PvP. On the one hand, I agree with you about DPS--or at least in regards to the fact that certain healers (and by that I mean Sage/Sorc) need to die easier. On the other hand, why should Sent/Mara stand alone in this regard? Not like we're the only glass cannon class/specs out there.

Wow, some anger issues here, but I have addressed your points regardless.

Wow, some anger issues here, but I have addressed your points regardless.

I originally posted this in response to the below quote in another thread. Greezt, I'm not trying to call you out so my apologies for any appearance of such--rather, you point out something worth discussing that I believe deserves its own thread. Shadow -- All specs Utilities: None. Built-in: Batlte readiness, 2m cooldown, instant heal for 15%, lasts 15 seconds, saber charge ability procs a 1% heal up to 1x per second. Battle readiness also gives significant damage/rotational buffs for the duration. So guaranteed heal 15%, possible heal up to 30%, realistic heal 20-24%, every 2 minutes. Shadow/Sin also has combat-breaking stealth, phase walk, and the highly spammable force speed, so they can easily remove themselves from combat for a full heal, if necessary. Tons of CC to be able to make certain of an escape too. In addition, Kinetic is (obviously) tanky, and Serenity gets several damage-procced self-heals. Sage: Do I really need to say anything? -- Edit: Okay, in contrary to something I say below, their self heal utility is a heroic but 1) why do they need it? and 2) the return on it is frigging amazing. Guardian: Utilities: 10% heal that procs off of CC break DCD, also reducing CD of said DCD to 90 seconds. So guaranteed 20% every 3 minutes. All specs: Focused Defense, 12 charges that trigger a self heal on any damage, no timer restrictions on charge proc. CD 2 minutes, or 90 seconds w/(good) util. Enure: Temporary 30% max HP buff. 1 minute CD, 20 second duration. Scoundrel: Utilities: 5% instant heal tied to a 30s CD 10s duration damage shield. Procs on shield collapse. Built in heals on every spec as this class has a dedicated heal spec; in other words, see Sage (just not as nuts). Gunslinger Built in/all specs: No heal, per se, but has a built in damage shield usable every 30 seconds -- shields are basically "proactive heals" assuming you have any incoming damage at all. Several utilities buff this ability. 10s duration, procs on any damage, no timer on proc (it's a damage shield). Utility: 1% health every 3 seconds while in cover. Great recovery over time, and you ideally should be fighting in cover as much as possible. The cover DCD lasts 23 seconds and has either a 1 minute or 45 second CD, so assuming you can stay in cover, 7-8% heal a minute (closer to 10% if specced for 45 second CD). Requires no proc other than staying in cover. Commando: Has a heal spec, so has numerous built in self heal/bubble abilities and utilities that buff them (see Sage, Scoundrel). Vanguard Utilities: Healed 5% of max HP per Shoulder Cannon missile. Shoulder cannon gets 1 instantly, so thats 5% instant assuming you use it, and another 3 missiles over 20 seconds -- so 20% over 20 seconds. Tactics/AP gets mo' missiles (3?). CD is 90 seconds. All specs: Adrelaline Rush, lasts 60s, CD 3 minutes. When below 40% health, healed up to 40% over 8 seconds -- or if health goes over 40%, 2% HP every second over the 8 second duration. So minimum HP gain over 8 seconds without a proc is 16%, and realistically I think at least 25% can be expected in most scenarios. And finally, Sentinel/Marauder: Combat/Carnage: NONE Concentration/Fury: NONE Watchman/Annihilation: The Zen/Berserk and crit procs are useful over time, helping counteract the excessive time needed to stay in combat for the spec to be DPS effective. The Zen/Berserk also has a small but nice return to party. Utilities: Tied to 3 minute CD DCD with no cooldown reducers. Important to note that this DCD is important to save for periods of high focus/incoming damage or its usage is inefficient. Duration 12 seconds, 3% max HP heal that procs on being attacked, and can only proc 1x per second. It is also worth noting that with the exception of the (Amazing) Vanguard utility, this is the only heal utility that is Heroic tier--all of the other save Scoundrel's (masterful tier, and they have other self heals) are Skillful tier. So our heal utility has the worst proc/trigger, has the longest cooldown of any of the self-heal utilities thanks to the DCD it is tied to, and necessarily requires regular incoming damage for the entire 12s duration of the tied DCD to heal to its potential (at least 1x attack for 12 seconds is not going to be insignificant, even with the defensive bonus of Saber Ward). Additionally, it's stuck in heroic tier--the only other one stuck in heroic tier is a damned amazing utility. This is also one of the only utilities (or self heals in general) that does not have ANY guaranteed healing. Meanwhile, 2/3 of our specs are the only 2 specs in the game that do not have ANY built in bubble or heal. Conclusion: We are utterly shafted on self heal compared to every other class, with 2/3 specs having no HP gain and the worst self-heal utility in the game. Based on averaging other specs, focusing more specifically on the "squishy/high DPS/burst" specs like ours, we should be able to see something like 30% healing every 3 minutes, with at least 20% of it very easily procced if not guaranteed. We should have -some- sort of regularly/semi-regularly usable bubble or self heal on all of our specs (anywhere between 30-90) separate from our utility. Our self-heal utility, based off of other DPS specs, should be skillful tier. Finally, our self-heal utility should be tied to something that is desirable to do/something our class should be doing by default--in our case, this should be either 1) while attacking, or 2: while under the effect of zen/berserk, which is usually done simultaneously to 1. Not being hit constantly for 12 seconds, something we should avoid outside of 1) PvE emergency offtanking, or 2) when we already have guaranteed/likely healing support for the duration of that 12 seconds). Meanwhile, as we are melee DPS that specializes in dealing with backliners, we are expected to be extended and exposed to both potential periods of high bursts and regular/incidental damage and have a reasonable risk of being temporarily extended beyond support. Our self-sufficiency, if appropriately balanced, should be somewhere between Gunslinger and Guardian. Right now, it's the worst in the game (excepting Watchman, which is arguably the most exposed DPS spec in PvP). Finally, I include a link to an image that represents my opinion on this state of affairs/balance: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895_FAIL.jpg As I hate not contributing, perhaps our utility should return 1% health per charge of Zen/Berserk (so 6% from each, assuming we use all of our charges). I think this gives us a reasonable return of around 10% per minute, with possible increasing returns based off of being active/effective in melee--which should be encouraged for our class (and also carries an increased amount of risk/likely damage taken to offset the potential returns). This could replace Zealous Ward/Blood Ward altogether, because screw that utility--give the names like Tranquil Zen and Blood Lust/Blood for the Blood God/For the Emperor/something Meanwhile, if we add a non-utility self-heal (or bubble) ability to the 2 non-Watchman specs, which I also suggest (to be in line with every other spec in the game), it could be something like a minor bubble or 1% heal off of use of precision/gore, so 5-6% return per minute assuming you are constantly active in melee, and probably something similar for Conc/Fury (based off of some sort of instant crit ability proc, for instance). I also feel the need to point out that the purpose of DPS self heal is not to make us immortal or tanks--rather, it is to be able to self-recover over time from the normal "nicks and scrapes" acquired over the course of normal combat: the minor damage from stuns/cc's, passing through the occasional AoE, a quick in-passing burst, minor fall damage. Good use of DCD's and proper engagements are still necessary to survive in the short term; 30% health return over 2-3 minutes isn't going to significantly add to short term survivability when facing a focus, hard burst, stacked dots, heavy AoE, standing in fire, etc. As stated numerous times above, all classes/specs except Sent/Mara have a reasonable means of long term recovery like this. Thoughts?

Shadow -- All specs Utilities: None. Built-in: Batlte readiness, 2m cooldown, instant heal for 15%, lasts 15 seconds, saber charge ability procs a 1% heal up to 1x per second. Battle readiness also gives significant damage/rotational buffs for the duration. So guaranteed heal 15%, possible heal up to 30%, realistic heal 20-24%, every 2 minutes. Shadow/Sin also has combat-breaking stealth, phase walk, and the highly spammable force speed, so they can easily remove themselves from combat for a full heal, if necessary. Tons of CC to be able to make certain of an escape too. In addition, Kinetic is (obviously) tanky, and Serenity gets several damage-procced self-heals. Sage: Do I really need to say anything? -- Edit: Okay, in contrary to something I say below, their self heal utility is a heroic but 1) why do they need it? and 2) the return on it is frigging amazing. Guardian: Utilities: 10% heal that procs off of CC break DCD, also reducing CD of said DCD to 90 seconds. So guaranteed 20% every 3 minutes. All specs: Focused Defense, 12 charges that trigger a self heal on any damage, no timer restrictions on charge proc. CD 2 minutes, or 90 seconds w/(good) util. Enure: Temporary 30% max HP buff. 1 minute CD, 20 second duration. Scoundrel: Utilities: 5% instant heal tied to a 30s CD 10s duration damage shield. Procs on shield collapse. Built in heals on every spec as this class has a dedicated heal spec; in other words, see Sage (just not as nuts). Gunslinger Built in/all specs: No heal, per se, but has a built in damage shield usable every 30 seconds -- shields are basically "proactive heals" assuming you have any incoming damage at all. Several utilities buff this ability. 10s duration, procs on any damage, no timer on proc (it's a damage shield). Utility: 1% health every 3 seconds while in cover. Great recovery over time, and you ideally should be fighting in cover as much as possible. The cover DCD lasts 23 seconds and has either a 1 minute or 45 second CD, so assuming you can stay in cover, 7-8% heal a minute (closer to 10% if specced for 45 second CD). Requires no proc other than staying in cover. Commando: Has a heal spec, so has numerous built in self heal/bubble abilities and utilities that buff them (see Sage, Scoundrel). Vanguard Utilities: Healed 5% of max HP per Shoulder Cannon missile. Shoulder cannon gets 1 instantly, so thats 5% instant assuming you use it, and another 3 missiles over 20 seconds -- so 20% over 20 seconds. Tactics/AP gets mo' missiles (3?). CD is 90 seconds. All specs: Adrelaline Rush, lasts 60s, CD 3 minutes. When below 40% health, healed up to 40% over 8 seconds -- or if health goes over 40%, 2% HP every second over the 8 second duration. So minimum HP gain over 8 seconds without a proc is 16%, and realistically I think at least 25% can be expected in most scenarios. And finally, Sentinel/Marauder: Combat/Carnage: NONE Concentration/Fury: NONE Watchman/Annihilation: The Zen/Berserk and crit procs are useful over time, helping counteract the excessive time needed to stay in combat for the spec to be DPS effective. The Zen/Berserk also has a small but nice return to party. Utilities: Tied to 3 minute CD DCD with no cooldown reducers. Important to note that this DCD is important to save for periods of high focus/incoming damage or its usage is inefficient. Duration 12 seconds, 3% max HP heal that procs on being attacked, and can only proc 1x per second. It is also worth noting that with the exception of the (Amazing) Vanguard utility, this is the only heal utility that is Heroic tier--all of the other save Scoundrel's (masterful tier, and they have other self heals) are Skillful tier. So our heal utility has the worst proc/trigger, has the longest cooldown of any of the self-heal utilities thanks to the DCD it is tied to, and necessarily requires regular incoming damage for the entire 12s duration of the tied DCD to heal to its potential (at least 1x attack for 12 seconds is not going to be insignificant, even with the defensive bonus of Saber Ward). Additionally, it's stuck in heroic tier--the only other one stuck in heroic tier is a damned amazing utility. This is also one of the only utilities (or self heals in general) that does not have ANY guaranteed healing. Meanwhile, 2/3 of our specs are the only 2 specs in the game that do not have ANY built in bubble or heal. Conclusion: No, we are utterly shafted on self heal, with 2/3 specs having no HP gain and the worst self-heal utility in the game. Based on averaging other specs, focusing more specifically on the "squishy/high DPS/burst" specs like ours, we should be able to see something like 30% healing every 3 minutes, with at least 20% of it very easily procced if not guaranteed. We should have -some- sort of regularly/semi-regularly usable bubble or self heal on all of our specs (anywhere between 30-90) separate from our utility. Our self-heal utility, based off of other DPS specs, should be skillful tier. Finally, our self-heal utility should be tied to something that is desirable to do/something our class should be doing by default--in our case, this should be either 1) while attacking, or 2: while under the effect of zen/berserk, which is usually done simultaneously to 1. Not being hit constantly for 12 seconds, something we should avoid outside of 1) PvE emergency offtanking, or 2) when we already have guaranteed/likely healing support for the duration of that 12 seconds). Meanwhile, as we are melee DPS that specializes in dealing with backliners, we are expected to be extended and exposed to both potential periods of high bursts and regular/incidental damage and have a reasonable risk of being temporarily extended beyond support. Our self-sufficiency, if appropriately balanced, should be somewhere between Gunslinger and Guardian. Right now, it's the worst in the game (excepting Watchman, which is arguably the most exposed DPS spec in PvP). Finally, I include a link to an image that represents my opinion on this state of affairs/balance: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895_FAIL.jpg

Defense is fine. Vig/Ven is a great PvE AoE spec, definitely one of the best. Real fight parses on it are awesome. The skillcap is a little higher in PvP, but ultimately, it also holds up very well as a PvP pressure spec. It doesn't have Watchman/Annihilation's problem of needing to stay engaged as badly. Focus/Rage--honestly, it's pretty good for PvP, but I'd have absolutely 0 problems with giving it a damage buff. It badly needs it for PvE, where its DPS is abysmal. I wouldn't change its spike abilities too much--it has very solid burst. The problem lies in its filler; it just does not sustain well at all. Should it be Combat/Carnage or Watchman/Annihilation? No, but it should stand up as a single target DPS spec that can give great on demand damage and easy target switching. And if it doing more damage meant more annihilating healers I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to complain in this meta. Obviously, you don't want Focus/Rage to exceed the DPS capability of Concentration/Fury, but Conc damage sucks and needs a buff now as well. Same problem--good burst, 0 sustain with the filler. I'd be happy to see it parse 6.8k on a good 1.5m dummy parse with Conc/Fury doing about 7k -- for reference, the best of Vig/Ven does about 6.7-6.9 (the best being just shy of 7, but there's some RNG there); the best of Combat/Carnage does around 7.1-7.2, and Watchman/Annihilation is a little above that. Focus/Rage isn't that durable anyhow; limited mobility in the Guard/Jugg toolkit and limited CC/CC break make it even easier than a Mara/Sent to kite and not all that tricky to get rid of. The medium vs heavy armor difference is negligible. As the above poster noted, I actually think a well played Conc/Fury is harder to get rid of--it just has a higher skill cap. Let there be more smashing of faces.

I'm honestly for this as well. "But then we'll just get stun locked and die after our DCD wears off." Yea, welcome to the club, buddy. If you barrier without a HOT first, without team support, etc, you're just delaying the inevitable--the same as the rest of us with our DCD's. Not getting a 2nd life.