BioWare You Have It Right, Don't Listen to the Raiders

[Ghisallo]

I love how people complain about all the "faults" of this game, and then proceed to back it up with evidence generated by some key monkey that probably lives in his mother's basement. If you don't like the game, un-subscribe and quit playing. Debating the merits of whether or not raiding should be a part of MMO's will never get BW/EA to change anything, and until you realized that you will have a bad time in playing any MMO ever. Welcome to the Internet kiddos.

 

Well actually most of the evidence here was speaking of the financials EA produced. As for TORstatus, all that does is copy the data from SWTORs own status site and then keeps track and creates 30-60 graphs. Only thing that "code monkey" did is write some HTML code to auto copy/paste what BW tells us.

[Mokuyobi]

Well actually most of the evidence here was speaking of the financials EA produced. As for TORstatus, all that does is copy the data from SWTORs own status site and then keeps track and creates 30-60 graphs. Only thing that "code monkey" did is write some HTML code to auto copy/paste what BW tells us.

 

Again, if you don't like it, un-subscribe. Pretty simple concept. I get you are trying to back up SWTOR and whatnot, however you are arguing with idiots in this case. They complain, and will continue to, until they die. It's rather pointless imo. Anywho, good luck and all that jazz.

[Ghisallo]

Again, if you don't like it, un-subscribe. Pretty simple concept. I get you are trying to back up SWTOR and whatnot, however you are arguing with idiots in this case. They complain, and will continue to, until they die. It's rather pointless imo. Anywho, good luck and all that jazz.

 

I did... I just had a 180 day sub recur in November before I unsubed... so I will be here using my hard earned money to express my opinion until that sub ends. I am a consumer. I gave them my money and the privileges that go along with that I retain until May of 2016 and I will use those privileges.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Ghisallo

[DawnAskham]

I would like to see these studies, interviews etc so I can see the context because some of this is news to me and I read that kinda stuff for fun (yes I need to get a life).

 

Thing is though, the main thing you mentioned, which I do agree with (sorta) is the casual transient. Here is the issue though, that casual transient is largely fueled by the f2p/f2p hybrid financial model more so than the games themselves. That model empowers the transient/locust/nomadic player. One actually has a very good "chicken or the egg" question when it comes to this issue.

 

They hop to one game, say meh, hop to another etc. but eventually (if they like MMORPGs and weren't just looking for one because of the WoW hype train) they land somewhere for the medium to long term. The entire point of the model is to get the players in the door and try to hook them on one of the revenue streams. The market is VERY saturated right now though with games, some of which, are very different from each other though.

 

Lets look at WoW (before the post Cata era). How many times did some of us to try other games, that failed and went f2p or f2p hybrid, and we stayed there, because we liked it, but other friends returned to the transient unfriendly WoW with it's subscription because they liked WoW?

 

 

I said before Cata because the problem with WoW really comes down to Cata. They did a major swing away from the formula that worked and since them have been very inconsistent in terms of development trying to regain what was lost. when you can't keep a ship traveling in a straight line bad things happen. If they had not created Panda land they likely would have stabilized BUT they made it. Now some people who said "I liked Cata" bailed annoyed and the people Cata made leave didn't come back because of their sense of betrayal. That is the danger of pendulum development.

 

 

Now you can look at FFXIV, and see a VERY casual transient unfriendly game (subscription only, lots of leveling to do, MUST do group content to pursue the main scenario storyline etc) but the 2nd most popular MMORPG in the world atm.

 

Then we have SWTOR. It makes an expac that is clearly friendly to that casual transient but then paradoxically makes it so that one requires a subscription to play in that same expansion? I think BW may be seeing what I feel is the real truth, though it is admittedly simply a theory:

 

 

The majority of MMORPGs who have designers talking about the "casual transients" being the movers and shakers are the designers of games FORCED to go to some f2p variation because the game failed hard on some level. They aren't going to say "well yeah we screwed this up design and/or execution wise", or in Rift's case "...overall Company financial wise, so we went f2p to salvage something." That would be a marketing disaster. Their loyal players would say "wait the doom sayers were right? I'm out!" and the transients would say "that game must suck, not going to bother trying it." So they speak about that casual transient population they are trying to attract in the most positive light possible and create a self-fulling prophecy.

 

Like I said just a theory but it is consistent with how MMORPGs have been working out the last 5 years since there are not only games surviving but some thriving and even growing on the "old" model.

 

 

Now I think BW HOPED they could keep existing players going here while they attracted those casual transients. They still clearly believe, and I think FFXIV shows, that story can be the 4th pillar of an MMORPG. The problem is that 4th pillar can't support a subscription based game all by itself (for existing players) and BW's plan for this expac was to do just that until at least August, likely due to budget concerns. I would not be surprised in the least if before the end of the year we see some interesting changes to the financial model here because yet again they misread the player base.

 

Interesting thoughts - also to consider is that a lot of newer F2P games are designed from the ground up as micro-transaction F2P games, with cost structures to match the revenue model.

 

While SWTOR went F2P, it is clear it was not designed as an F2P game, and it is unlikely its cost structure is in-line with an F2P game designed from the start for the transient F2P player base and associated revenue model.

 

My concern is that the developers have already put themselves in a hole with EA finance, and without something (maybe the arena thing will help) new to entice players to stay or return, the little story we are getting won't be enough to retain or attract the players required to hit the revenue targets for which their budget is based.

 

And that will lead to more budget cuts leading to lower populations and less revenue, which at some point cycles down to a level at which EA says the results are not enough and close the game (and EA will close the game even if it 'makes money' as they aren't going to tie up resources in a business that isn't materially contributing).

 

And none of that has anything to do with raids or no raids - even without raids, without more new repeatable content, I and many I know are not going to stick around as paying customers.

 

I did... I just had a 180 day sub recur in November before I unsubed... so I will be here using my hard earned money to express my opinion until that sub ends. I am a consumer. I gave them my money and the privileges that go along with that I retain until May of 2016 and I will use those privileges.

 

I'm in the same boat with some remaining time but otherwise a cancelled subscription. Most of my in-game friends have also cancelled, and with most subbing month to month, are already gone from the game (my friends list and guild lists are eerily empty when I do log into the game).

 

I do plan to return at some point and finish the story, and will check in from time to time just to see if anyone is around, but neither my time nor my money will be spent on SWTOR anywhere near the level it has in the past.

Edited January 17, 2016 by DawnAskham

[Transcendent]

No, raiding is not required for an MMO be a AAA MMO. GW2 hasn't had raiding for years and now they put them in because they could afford to. They have a formula that works for the casual transients, as LA defined them.

 

I hate to point this out to you (well actually I don't).

 

If SWTOR follows another MMO formula, yet is so far behind, why play SWTOR at all? Why not go play GW2 where the new content is being released properly now? I mean, it has got better (insert any number of factors here).

 

I may or may not return to play the story when it's all been released. Minor point here, I'm not paying a subscription monthly on the premise of 20-60 minute story. I'd be insane to do that when I can go pick up any other game (or in this case buy to play GW2 if I want to play an MMO) and have far more content to play than is being released monthly by EA Austin.

 

How many other players are going to think along those same lines? Good luck in those EA financial statements, if you think they're going to look pretty good for Q3 / Q4 onwards, I think you may need to adjust that line of thought. As others have pointed out, this is an MMO, all of the content is relevant to different demographics. At no point should development simply STOP on any part of this game for any period of time.

 

Your viewpoint is indefensible, period. That's not a AAA MMO title you're suggesting, that's a single player RPG game (and other developers do it far better - go look at Diablo 3 for what I mean on this). You don't pay a monthly subscription for things like that, that's simply stupid.

[psikofunkster]

Another troll thread why dont you delete this one too EA? oh wait do you agree in fact with the OP? ok....sigh...

[Barleron]

Raiding has been in decline for years. The obvious reality is that participation in ops in this game does not justify the cost, so by focusing on story chapters and more inclusive, smaller scale PvE, there is much greater potential than trying and failing to get people to play ops.

 

If raiding participation does not increase as a result of 4.0, where all raids were made more accessible, then just write it off and focus on content that people do want to participate in.

 

Let the metrics guide you, don't listen to an over-represented vocal minority anymore. That's what got you guys into the revenue decline mess in the first place - listening to raiders over the much larger group of people who wanted story content.

 

Please don't relapse into what you did in RotHC and SoR.

 

Do not ignore raiders. Do not ignore story players. Do not ignore PvP players. Do not ignore anyone in your player base.

 

Please make a well rounded game -- which includes story content and group PvE content, and PvP content. This game sorely needs new FPs and new OPs and new WZs to reach a balance. Although, the only part on the horizon is a new WZ.

[JMCA]

There is no justifiable reason to make new ops when most people don't even play the ones they've made.

 

Whatsoever.

[leoheart]

wow really? i cant believe the op. raids are in decline because the content hasnt been any good. they want to increase the amount of ppl doing ops then make good ops. make there be good incentive to said ops mounts drops actually decent looking armor(there is more to armor than stats bw). and why cant we have good story that leads into an op/s? raiding can be included with the story and be another incentive to do raiding. dont be stupid and get rid of raiding because i dont want to sub just to play an cpl hours worth of story and then sit around for a half a year waiting for more story.

[leoheart]

also bw you might as well ignore all your metrics since the great majority of ppl comming back to the game are doing so because of the movie.

[psikofunkster]

There is no justifiable reason to make new ops when most people don't even play the ones they've made.

 

Whatsoever.

 

But that happened not because of the lack of interest but because ea and their bugs on operations bosses, ninja looters on highlighted operations and reciclyng the same content over and over again don't be confused....

Edited January 17, 2016 by psikofunkster

[JMCA]

But that happened not because of the lack of interest but because ea and their bugs on operations bosses, ninja looters on highlighted operations and reciclyng the same content over and over again don't be confused....

 

Do you really think the numbers were all that different when there was only a relevant raid tier with each patch that provided them?

 

Why would revenue decline aggressively over the period where operations were being made as a priority?

 

Because they're popular?

 

=/

[DarkZenith]

But that happened not because of the lack of interest but because ea and their bugs on operations bosses, ninja looters on highlighted operations and reciclyng the same content over and over again don't be confused....

 

Well, then people need to start showing more interest I guess, otherwise BW won't make an effort. It's an irrelevant discussion anyway, as BW must have access to data that we do not, and have decided that adding more story is what the majority of players want. This won't change unless the data itself changes, and the only way that will happen, is if more people start raiding.

[Neglience]

Do you really think the numbers were all that different when there was only a relevant raid tier with each patch that provided them?

 

Why would revenue decline aggressively over the period where operations were being made as a priority?

 

Because they're popular?

 

=/

 

Operations never were a priority. Story was always the priority.

[Ghisallo]

Interesting thoughts - also to consider is that a lot of newer F2P games are designed from the ground up as micro-transaction F2P games, with cost structures to match the revenue model.

 

Exactly, I think people miss this. You do not design a game and then decide on a revenue model. Your budget is based on revenue projections based on a predetermined financial model. If within a year or so of your launch you are transitioning from a sub based model to a f2p model it's because your game failed to meet ROI and every game, including ESO, had issues at launch that the developers either failed to consider or underestimated the impact of or, in the case of Rift, the company itself over extended itself on other projects and so cannibalized the one profit making venture.

 

While SWTOR went F2P, it is clear it was not designed as an F2P game, and it is unlikely its cost structure is in-line with an F2P game designed from the start for the transient F2P player base and associated revenue model.

well initially they weren't even getting that., BW themselves, shortly after the transition, stated that the bulk of microtransaction purchases were coming from subscribers. They have been very silent on that though since FY 2014

 

My concern is that the developers have already put themselves in a hole with EA finance, and without something (maybe the arena thing will help) new to entice players to stay or return, the little story we are getting won't be enough to retain or attract the players required to hit the revenue targets for which their budget is based.

 

And that will lead to more budget cuts leading to lower populations and less revenue, which at some point cycles down to a level at which EA says the results are not enough and close the game (and EA will close the game even if it 'makes money' as they aren't going to tie up resources in a business that isn't materially contributing).

 

And this is the rub. in FY 2014 and 2015 they under performed according to the Earnings calls. Now this might not mean lost money all the time (they did the quarter SIMS online launched though) but if you expect a 20% ROI and only get say 10% then a CEO who is a good manager of the stock holders investments will reevaluate things. You have to keep in mind that the current CEO came up through the ranks of EA Sports. He looks and sees what AAA SP console games have done for EA, then looks at what Warhammer Online did and then SWTOR, he can easily have a "what have you done for me lately" attitude.

 

It doesn't even matter to him that in terms of accounts SWTOR is in the top 10 of the most popular MMORPGs of 2015, what matters is what money does it make on the backs of those accounts. Unlike WoW, FFXIV and EVE they only reached that popularity in terms of accounts by the free 2 play transition and that does not directly translate into the $$$$ the CEO and CFO expect.

 

And none of that has anything to do with raids or no raids - even without raids, without more new repeatable content, I and many I know are not going to stick around as paying customers.

 

Exactly. Tbh this is what I think the issue is;

 

First: you have new and returning players who see most everything as new. As such they can't relate to existing players who have issues.

 

Second: You have players who want(ed) TOR 3 that also don't care about the playable content (I qualified this because I know SP RPG fans who want good playable content.)

 

So if you can't relate or are simply happy with the change what do you do? Well all to often rather than just saying, "I don't care about what is bothering you. Even if true I am happy and that is all that matters", people will look to create the illusion of "I am right" period. When you don't have facts to base that on you need to go subjective. This usually involves creating an argument where you paint your cause as "righteous" and the other "bankrupt." How do you do that in MMORPGs? The casual vs raider/elitist trope.

[Ghisallo]

There is no justifiable reason to make new ops when most people don't even play the ones they've made.

 

Whatsoever.

 

Do you know, with 3.0 how many people were running OPs via just the group finder, let alone guilds? There was A LOT of OP activity going. Their talk of metrics, to anyone with a basic knowledge of statistics, was a loaded deck.

 

They have a weekly lock out on the "current" raid zones and the "old" raid zones done as a weekly and via the group finder were finished in like an hour, even by casual groups. At the same time they introduced 12x exp. Even if you are a "hard core elitist raider" but love a game, what are you going to do with the rest of your play time? Level alts.

 

What is even funnier is that in May of 2015 they were interviewed and specifically said the metric you referenced was a NEW metric. This was months after the planning for KOTFE was started. To be blunt, they came up with a plan that they knew would be controversial and then went in search of metrics that justified the plan. Marketing teams in companies do this ALL the time to try and make harsh medicine go down smoother with their customers.

[tejfoloslangos]

Never been in any raid. What is the exactly?

[DarkZenith]

This moron is on the reddit aswell.

 

Raiding has always been a small part of the community.

 

Also, its the part of the community that forms guilds, gets deeply involved with the mechanics and serves a community purpose which encourages other players to do so.

 

It's not like all these multi billion dollar companies have focused on raiding for no reason and just waited for this belltoss to come along. They do their research too and understand the idea of power users and their importance to the community aspect.

 

In other games, yes that is indeed the case. But something is obviously different here, or BW would not have shifted focus away from raiding, would they.

[AmadanNaBrona]

no reason to play current raids, been there done that, got the gear, no point anymore, that/s why we need new ones!

[JMCA]

This moron is on the reddit aswell.

 

Raiding has always been a small part of the community.

 

Also, its the part of the community that forms guilds, gets deeply involved with the mechanics and serves a community purpose which encourages other players to do so.

 

It's not like all these multi billion dollar companies have focused on raiding for no reason and just waited for this belltoss to come along. They do their research too and understand the idea of power users and their importance to the community aspect.

 

Not anymore. I am not going to waste my time on a "forum" completely taken over by salty people who aren't even playing the game anymore.

 

You call yourselves royalty and that the community depends so much on you, but for all your "leadership" nobody seemed to be following you did they?

 

The population has more than weathered the "mass exodus" of the salty raiders, especially with the movie.

 

Bad news, the story chapters they're releasing will be in the more exciting rising action and climax parts of the plot. Your "argument" will be further out of touch with reality than it already is.

[JMCA]

no reason to play current raids, been there done that, got the gear, no point anymore, that/s why we need new ones!

 

No point wasting money on that.

 

Also gives some insight into the staff changeover - why keep people primarily experienced with content that isn't in the best interest to the future of the game?

 

The "up to 4 players" approach is better and the numbers so far prove it.

 

I can't wait to see the big success on paper when the financials come out.

 

Believe me I will be all over spreading the word of how wrong the raiders have been about the expansion.

[Swordy]

Not anymore. I am not going to waste my time on a "forum" completely taken over by salty people who aren't even playing the game anymore.

 

You call yourselves royalty and that the community depends so much on you, but for all your "leadership" nobody seemed to be following you did they?

 

The population has more than weathered the "mass exodus" of the salty raiders, especially with the movie.

 

Bad news, the story chapters they're releasing will be in the more exciting rising action and climax parts of the plot. Your "argument" will be further out of touch with reality than it already is.

 

Funny, I'm in a guild with 180 active accounts who won conquest last week and ran several nightmare raids this week. All because we are a raiding guild.

 

I'm sure all of those people are also wrong and don't play the game.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Swordy

[JMCA]

Funny, I'm in a guild with 180 active accounts who won conquest last week and ran several nightmare raids this week. All because we are a raiding guild.

 

I'm sure all of those people are also wrong and don't play the game.

 

180 accounts is good. Good for you.

 

You're not representative of the community as a whole, but congratulations.

[psikofunkster]

Do you really think the numbers were all that different when there was only a relevant raid tier with each patch that provided them?

 

Why would revenue decline aggressively over the period where operations were being made as a priority?

 

Because they're popular?

 

=/

 

Of course they were!, i still remember when TFB was brand new, many pugs were starting all day long even at 1 AM....those were the days.

 

All the reasons i mentioned you before.

 

They are not popular anymore many factors have contributed to kill them.

[psikofunkster]

Well, then people need to start showing more interest I guess, otherwise BW won't make an effort. It's an irrelevant discussion anyway, as BW must have access to data that we do not, and have decided that adding more story is what the majority of players want. This won't change unless the data itself changes, and the only way that will happen, is if more people start raiding.

 

I'm afraid its too late for that, people are fed up with poor EA's decisions. EA won't make an effort simply because they don't want an effort. Irrelevant for you. You should remeber when this game opened had many more servers and the lack of endgme content provoked their diminish. These guys love to commit the same mistake over and over again.

Edited January 17, 2016 by psikofunkster