Overload of mobility-, cc-, slow- and rootskills as well as immunity

[aristrokratie]

The game engine couldn't handle leap or scamper...

The new mobility skills (mad dash etc.) weren't needed.

 

Honestly, holotraverse had me killed more than anything else (fly high, fall a looong time....)

 

The current amount of cc is incredible. Particular classes have mezzes, two hardtuns or a lot of roots etc. This is just overkill.

 

 

I really hate roots. On my merc HO has 45 seconds cooldown while juggs especially can create a rootchain every 20 seconds or so.

 

 

Atm. I think that there's too much cc. If you want more.mobile gameplay, reduce the overall amount of roots and slows instead of giving a chosen few classes stun and cc immunity and adding a crap ton of bugged mobility skills.

 

Remove some of the ranged dds kiting skills and reduce the amount of anti-kiting tools melees have these days.

 

If I do pvp I wanna play the game, not be mezzed every 20 seconds by a god damn warrior charging in the middle of the pack, mezzing everyone and then backpedaling into queshball acid and dying ( my favorite example, it really happened that way:D)

 

 

Cc should be a big part of tactics but most of the tine and because of low cd times they are just used on cooldown as part of the rotation.

 

Cc is good to exist and some classes should have better cc than others. But I think it wouldn't be that bad if we reduced the overall amount of cc and counter cc abilities.

 

Make pvp more fun by making it bug less and allowing players to actually play the game.

[Ganthen]

I agree. I feel that, in a lot of games, CC is overdone. Seems like it happens in every game. I don't know why they build it like that. I think it stems from having to build a character for PVE, in which case they may need all of those abilities, and then combining that with PVP, where those characters may not need as many of those abilities.

 

Like i've said before, balance in pvp will probably never be achievable as long as PVE and PVP exists within the same bubble. The only way you could ever truly balance pvp is if it were developed independently of pve. This means that you'd have to develop separate armor, spells, weapons etc. for the pvp game. This way, you could adjust a class without affecting it in pve.

[Hei_Atzfel]

I still don't understand the CC complaint. Mobility I understand as the line between ranged and melee classes has certainly been blurred as of late. But CC? Literally nothing has changed about amount of CC between 2.x and now. There was a shift in 3.0 where bubble break was common but that's now gone so the amount of CC is the EXACT same currently as it was during 2.x, however there are now more CC immunities than ever (Double Entrench/roll, Dark Stability, Unwavering Resolve, Gravity Vortex, etc etc). CC outside of Carbonize stacking really isn't a big deal. It certainly sucks to be targeted by two hardstuns in a row when your breaker is on CD but you can't blame coordination on game balance. Edited January 6, 2016 by Hei_Atzfel

[aristrokratie]

I still don't understand the CC complaint. Mobility I understand as the line between ranged and melee classes has certainly been blurred as of late. But CC? Literally nothing has changed about amount of CC between 2.x and now. There was a shift in 3.0 where bubble break was common but that's now gone so the amount of CC is the EXACT same currently as it was during 2.x, however there are now more CC immunities than ever (Double Entrench/roll, Dark Stability, Unwavering Resolve, Gravity Vortex, etc etc). CC outside of Carbonize stacking really isn't a big deal. It certainly sucks to be targeted by two hardstuns in a row when your breaker is on CD but you can't blame coordination on game balance.

 

cc= crowd control.

 

Roots slows etc all fall into that category.

I think because every class has a hardstun and most have at least one mezz that not many slow and root effects should coexist to mezzes and stuns.

Edited January 6, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Zoidrinali]

I still don't understand the CC complaint. Mobility I understand as the line between ranged and melee classes has certainly been blurred as of late. But CC? Literally nothing has changed about amount of CC between 2.x and now. There was a shift in 3.0 where bubble break was common but that's now gone so the amount of CC is the EXACT same currently as it was during 2.x, however there are now more CC immunities than ever (Double Entrench/roll, Dark Stability, Unwavering Resolve, Gravity Vortex, etc etc). CC outside of Carbonize stacking really isn't a big deal. It certainly sucks to be targeted by two hardstuns in a row when your breaker is on CD but you can't blame coordination on game balance.

 

Regarding your comments about double entrench/roll. As an engineering sniper I disagree with the way you say it. For me I received no new skills in 4.0, what bioware did was to give us back the resets we lost in 3.0.

 

The last time we received any new skills was back in 2.0. The best thing about having our resets back is we get them back in a heavily nerfed state, 3 min cool down compared to the 1min it used to be.

[aristrokratie]

It's quite telling if I say that you're permaslowed in pvp... almost every class got really potent slows (arsenal, smash, sage ind both specs, marksman... cough fortunatly their spec is gimped).

Those were added to make kiting easier or getting kited harder... but for classes that have few ways to get rid of those effects it it's just stupid design.

Remove kiting and antikiting tools and melee vs ranged wouldn't change much but pvp would be a lot faster because you can actually move at 100% movementspeed.

Edited January 6, 2016 by aristrokratie

[DerSchneider]

nerf juggs

 

and ops.

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by DerSchneider

[Lalainnia]

If they brought back down cleanse cd and fixed its priority system this would go a long way to helping with most cc

[Zoidrinali]

It's quite telling if I say that you're permaslowed in pvp... almost every class got really potent slows (arsenal, smash, sage ind both specs, marksman... cough fortunatly their spec is gimped).

Those were added to make kiting easier or getting kited harder... but for classes that have few ways to get rid of those effects it it's just stupid design.

Remove kiting and antikiting tools and melee vs ranged wouldn't change much but pvp would be a lot faster because you can actually move at 100% movementspeed.

 

You obviously don't play a sniper/gunslinger, removing all kiting and antikiting skills would break the class

[aristrokratie]

You obviously don't play a sniper/gunslinger, removing all kiting and antikiting skills would break the class

I was talking about all classes in general. I didn't say that snipers for example should lose legshot.

 

Snipers actually are the only class that I can think of that really needs their slows and roots (merc but they need a rework soooo)

Edited January 6, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Master-Nala]

I agree. I feel that, in a lot of games, CC is overdone. Seems like it happens in every game. I don't know why they build it like that.

 

Controlling effects (stuns, mezzes, etc.) represent an active form of both mitigation and offense and as such are favored by developers. The idea is that games work best with players have choices and are rewarded for good choices and fail when making bad choices. Controlling effects, for better or worse, provide a player with a potent tool that if used properly can be very effective. Likewise when used improperly (against a Resolve capped player for example) the player loses use of the tool for the cooldown with no benefit.

 

This is the same reason that heals and defensive cooldowns are favored over potent passive defensives.

 

The trick is that the developers need to understand when they have went too far. Now, we just have too many controlling effects in the game. We also have too many cooldowns to counter said controlling effects. It's gone from being a measure of strategy and skill to a matter of just clicking what's off cooldown. That's really, really bad. Stuns for example, have so little penalty for using them improperly that no one cares.

 

All that said, we can't lower CC without changing the defensive/offensive profile of most classes. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. For example, I think there should be a meaningful difference from having heavy armor to light armor. Whereas in PvP it's negligible.

[Hei_Atzfel]

cc= crowd control.

 

Roots slows etc all fall into that category.

I think because every class has a hardstun and most have at least one mezz that not many slow and root effects should coexist to mezzes and stuns.

 

Thank you for pointing out possibly the single most well known definition in the history of MMO's. That also doesn't change what I said. Lots of classes have some form of either partial or full CC immunity these days. And no, slows/roots should exist as they're the primary way that ranged classes kite. The problem with mobility isn't CC; the problem is how little standing still/casting ranged actually have to do anymore.

[Master-Nala]

Thank you for pointing out possibly the single most well known definition in the history of MMO's. That also doesn't change what I said. Lots of classes have some form of either partial or full CC immunity these days. And no, slows/roots should exist as they're the primary way that ranged classes kite. The problem with mobility isn't CC; the problem is how little standing still/casting ranged actually have to do anymore.

 

That really isn't much of a problem in the presence of multiple gap closers, 30m mezzes and the like. The alternative is worse. Because if you make ranged have to stand still then you need to have melee be forced to walk to them. That means a lot of slows, less gap closers, and less CC for melees until they close to melee range.

 

The game used to be much closer to that. And goodness did the melee class players complain. So now they can close the gap, but ranged don't need the gap as much. This arms race wasn't one sided.

[aristrokratie]

What exactly changes if ranged classes lose their slows to kite the melee but at the same time the melee do not have that many roots and slows to keep them in range?

 

YES both players run at higher speed and have more fun.

Edited January 6, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Master-Nala]

What exactly changes if ranged classes lose their slows to kite the melee but at the same time the melee do not have that many roots and slows to keep them in range?

 

YES both players run at higher speed and have more fun.

 

Only if there is parity in the removal. If one side loses more than the other, then you have a situation where either the ranged is often having to fight in melee range or the melee is rarely able to close. And that would just lead to more complaining on both sides.

 

It's not a simple matter, there are no easy answers with a game with this many abilities.

[aristrokratie]

Only if there is parity in the removal. If one side loses more than the other, then you have a situation where either the ranged is often having to fight in melee range or the melee is rarely able to close. And that would just lead to more complaining on both sides.

 

It's not a simple matter, there are no easy answers with a game with this many abilities.

 

Ofc it would be hard to do at first, but once the stuff is balanced out it will be very rewarding.

[Hei_Atzfel]

That really isn't much of a problem in the presence of multiple gap closers, 30m mezzes and the like. The alternative is worse. Because if you make ranged have to stand still then you need to have melee be forced to walk to them. That means a lot of slows, less gap closers, and less CC for melees until they close to melee range.

 

The game used to be much closer to that. And goodness did the melee class players complain. So now they can close the gap, but ranged don't need the gap as much. This arms race wasn't one sided.

 

Perhaps if not for the mass amount of immunities these days you would be correct, however most classes have some form of way to prevent CC.

[foxmob]

Perhaps if not for the mass amount of immunities these days you would be correct, however most classes have some form of way to prevent CC.

 

yep. all they had to do was adjust white bar so that it's relevant in combat (as opposed to spawn). instead...this.

[Lhancelot]

Perhaps if not for the mass amount of immunities these days you would be correct, however most classes have some form of way to prevent CC.

 

Yeah that's what has overdone it all. Just way too much CC on top of immunities to CC. What's the point of CC if you will simply give some classes large gaps of time when they can ignore CC? Some call it strategy, I call it CC bloat.

[aristrokratie]

Yeah that's what has overdone it all. Just way too much CC on top of immunities to CC. What's the point of CC if you will simply give some classes large gaps of time when they can ignore CC? Some call it strategy, I call it CC bloat.

While other classes are vulnerable to cc all the time. Seems fair for the mongolian melees.

Edited January 7, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Lalainnia]

Cleanse fix it. It removes 4 sec hard stuns removes most roots and slows needs its priority system fixed and its cd put back to what it used to be 6 seconds. That would help a ton on this whole "cc war"

[aristrokratie]

Cleanse fix it. It removes 4 sec hard stuns removes most roots and slows needs its priority system fixed and its cd put back to what it used to be 6 seconds. That would help a ton on this whole "cc war"

4.5 seconds

Also they should remove this force tech physical mental debuff thing. Every healer should be able to dispell any root mezz or stun.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Thank you for pointing out possibly the single most well known definition in the history of MMO's

 

There was a female singer called "CC Catch".

[AnimalPotential]

CC allows smart players to excell vs bad ones, because of different uses of CCs.

 

Bad players always want less CC, great players want more.

 

Great players who want less, play CS/Battlefield.

[Giliodor]

CC allows smart players to excell vs bad ones, because of different uses of CCs.

 

Bad players always want less CC, great players want more.

 

Great players who want less, play CS/Battlefield.

 

This is quite true, to an extent. I highly doubt that great WoW players would want more CC in WoW, though.

 

I also don't think that CC in SWTOR is a big issue at all. In WoW (which I'm playing as we speak), CC is really ridiculous at times. I can just get completely locked down for 15 seconds. In SWTOR, it's maybe 5 seconds. After that, you'll be whitebarred, and become immune for the duration, which is a really neat system.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Giliodor