4.0 Lightning Sorcerer Guide

[DarthCognusSion]

Yanto-telrac's top parse for instance uses a crazy amount of TK Wave. I suspect there is some glitch going on that lets it proc more than it is supposed to?

 

Then there is Aynhand's parse which uses project 42 times. Any idea how that has worked so well?

 

Through all this I find is nice that your rotation is almost exactly what I have been using with pretty awesome success!

 

Edit: I decided just to try out my old 4-piece and in on my 4th attempt I bested myself by 141 dps. Maybe it is better on a dummy, but is it better on a boss? uggggh 315 mastery less and about 3k HP less

 

As far as the first parse goes, there is a bug/glitch that allows you to cast Chain Lighting/TK Wave as an instant without with proc. The problem with this is that there is no way of which I know or have read that actually allows you to do it on purpose. The occurrence of the bug is completely random. That is how, I believe, that parse was accomplished.

 

For the second parse, I think he was just prioritizing project over TK Burst. I don't know why he did so, and I don't know how his parse was so good. I wouldn't do that without more testing and a solid mathematical basis to do it. I'll ask Bant the next time I talk to him what he thinks. It is definitely strange.

 

As per the DM set bonus, I have seen better results on bosses as well, not just dummy. Of course if the dummy is anecdotal, the bosses are more so, but I am confident for the moment in saying that imo the DM set bonus is a dps increase.

[DarthCognusSion]

For practical purposes I discarded my 186 4 piece and exchanged for the 220 new (Don't play enough on my Sorc/Sage to justify 224 yet) 6 piece, Because I also liked to play Madness when in the mood (I'm lazy to have 2 sets of gear) and I prefer the extra Hp on fights especially on things like NiM DG first phase etc...

 

I really hate the amount of HP and Mastery that I lose while using the DM set bonus. If I played Madness I might be in your boat as well, but I just refuse to play that spec. I don't think its bad, but I just don't think it is that fun to play compared to Lightning, and I feel like the rotation is kind clunky.

[Bejujular]

I definitely find that use of TK Wave strange. If you have noticed, he put up a new mark of 6773 today using the same method. I imagine he just got lucky with the bugged procs.

 

I dabbled with Balance, but its not substantially better than TK by any means, and I find TK easier. I dont have to think about it anymore. Ill keep those four 224 armorings close by. but I guess I am going to roll with that old 4-piece for a while. How absurd that it very well could STILL be BIS, what? 2 years later?

[Zyonz]

Thank you for the guide!

[mwissie]

Yanto-telrac's top parse for instance uses a crazy amount of TK Wave. I suspect there is some glitch going on that lets it proc more than it is supposed to?

 

I can confirm there is a glitch, which currently I've only had myself inside operations, flashpoints and while dueling

my theory is that it's caused from hardcasting TKWave while taking dmg, as I've not been able to replicate the bug on a dummy.. ever..

 

also, I'd like to suggest an alternative rotation, which is similar to what Yanto-telrac uses, although it works without the glitch, has a high chance of getting the glitch to happen, and has more dps than the normal rotation (especially in aoe situations)

 

it's easy, and goes like this:

TKWave (hardcast) > turbulence > TKWave (procced) > 3 GCD fillers

filler priority: MC (procced) > tele gust > tele burst > project > force slow

 

that's it.. nothing else.. it's boringly easy and static

 

an example parse (without using any adrenals or raidbuffs): linky (as far as I could tell the top parser using this rotation, without glitch or adrenals)

 

btw, I'm not interested in any discussion saying this rotation is wrong, that you should never hardcast TKWave, blabla

I know it's not the conventional rotation, that is suffers from lack of mobility etc, but try it out, you might like it, and you might get higher dps from it (and switching between this rotation and the normal one is easy to do midfight)

 

for reference, if you get the glitch (which makes TKWave an instant, even without the buff/proc), this is the basic rotation:

TKWave > turbulence > TKWave > 4GCD fillers (same priority)

the big difference here, is that you can swap around either of the TKWaves with a filler (only MC or tele gust)

eg. TKWave > turbulence > MC (procced) > TKWave > 3GCD fillers

or TKWave > tele gust > turbulence > MC (procced) > TKWave > 2GCD fillers

 

but if you delay the procced TKWave (after turbulence) you must NOT put a filler between TKWave and turbulence; since that'd mean delaying turbulence, which is a dps loss

 

basically, if you get the glitch to work for you, you have much more room to use MC nearly on CD, which is a big dps gain, apart from having time for 1 more ability every 9ish seconds ofc

[DarthCognusSion]

I can confirm there is a glitch, which currently I've only had myself inside operations, flashpoints and while dueling

my theory is that it's caused from hardcasting TKWave while taking dmg, as I've not been able to replicate the bug on a dummy.. ever..

 

also, I'd like to suggest an alternative rotation, which is similar to what Yanto-telrac uses, although it works without the glitch, has a high chance of getting the glitch to happen, and has more dps than the normal rotation (especially in aoe situations)

 

it's easy, and goes like this:

TKWave (hardcast) > turbulence > TKWave (procced) > 3 GCD fillers

filler priority: MC (procced) > tele gust > tele burst > project > force slow

 

that's it.. nothing else.. it's boringly easy and static

 

an example parse (without using any adrenals or raidbuffs): linky (as far as I could tell the top parser using this rotation, without glitch or adrenals)

 

btw, I'm not interested in any discussion saying this rotation is wrong, that you should never hardcast TKWave, blabla

I know it's not the conventional rotation, that is suffers from lack of mobility etc, but try it out, you might like it, and you might get higher dps from it (and switching between this rotation and the normal one is easy to do midfight)

 

for reference, if you get the glitch (which makes TKWave an instant, even without the buff/proc), this is the basic rotation:

TKWave > turbulence > TKWave > 4GCD fillers (same priority)

the big difference here, is that you can swap around either of the TKWaves with a filler (only MC or tele gust)

eg. TKWave > turbulence > MC (procced) > TKWave > 3GCD fillers

or TKWave > tele gust > turbulence > MC (procced) > TKWave > 2GCD fillers

 

but if you delay the procced TKWave (after turbulence) you must NOT put a filler between TKWave and turbulence; since that'd mean delaying turbulence, which is a dps loss

 

basically, if you get the glitch to work for you, you have much more room to use MC nearly on CD, which is a big dps gain, apart from having time for 1 more ability every 9ish seconds ofc

 

I did the parsing when I first saw his parse, which is a glitch, and I did it again when I saw your posts about an alternate rotation. Quite frankly I think that it is sub-optimal and not raid viable. Let me explain why.

 

Lightning is a very RNG dependent rotation. People don't think about it much, but there is a lot of potential damage hidden behind Forked Lightning/Telekinetic Momentum and Forked Darkness/Mental Momentum. If you get lucky and get a lot of them, you will see much better damage, but relying on them is foolish. This is similar to what your rotation does. Hard casting Chain Lightning/TK Wave takes 2 gcds. I'm going to use my abilities' numbers for the sake of ease. My chain lightning does 6.4-6.k without critting while Lightning Bolt does 4.6-4.8k. In order for that hard casted Chain Lightning to be worth the extra gcd over 2 Lightning Bolts it MUST crit otherwise it is a dps loss so now you have a rotation that is even more dependent on RNG i.e crits. On top of this, in order to not delay Thundering Blast, you must use the procced Chain Lightning immediately after Thundering Blast. This means that between the hard cast and this, you are inevitably delaying either Lightning Flash or Crushing Darkness. Funnily enough, I still saw better results using the old Dread Master 4-piece with the Ultimate Exarch 2-piece. But even then the best parse I got was still over 100 dps less than my Lightning parse utilizing the traditional rotation. The sheer loss in APM alone is staggering, about 5-7.

 

Long story short, I would not recommend your rotation for anything other than parsing. It may be possible to make it work on Torque for instance, but I still would not do it. More RNG in a rotation is never a good thing. This is why I use the old DM 4-piece. You may be able to get better damage with great crits in the current 6-piece, but if you don't then you are going to have lower damage because you don't get as many abilities out. As far as the glitch goes, I will never recommend a rotation that is not legitimate, especially when you can't even trigger it intentionally. It seems to be completely random. So while you may be able to get higher dps once in a while, the dps loss on all those other parses/fights does not make it worth it. This is my opinion, but I don't see this alternate rotation being viable in any fights that really matter.

[mwissie]

I did the parsing when I first saw his parse, which is a glitch, and I did it again when I saw your posts about an alternate rotation. Quite frankly I think that it is sub-optimal and not raid viable. Let me explain why.

 

Lightning is a very RNG dependent rotation. People don't think about it much, but there is a lot of potential damage hidden behind Forked Lightning/Telekinetic Momentum and Forked Darkness/Mental Momentum. If you get lucky and get a lot of them, you will see much better damage, but relying on them is foolish. This is similar to what your rotation does. Hard casting Chain Lightning/TK Wave takes 2 gcds. I'm going to use my abilities' numbers for the sake of ease. My chain lightning does 6.4-6.k without critting while Lightning Bolt does 4.6-4.8k. In order for that hard casted Chain Lightning to be worth the extra gcd over 2 Lightning Bolts it MUST crit otherwise it is a dps loss so now you have a rotation that is even more dependent on RNG i.e crits. On top of this, in order to not delay Thundering Blast, you must use the procced Chain Lightning immediately after Thundering Blast. This means that between the hard cast and this, you are inevitably delaying either Lightning Flash or Crushing Darkness. Funnily enough, I still saw better results using the old Dread Master 4-piece with the Ultimate Exarch 2-piece. But even then the best parse I got was still over 100 dps less than my Lightning parse utilizing the traditional rotation. The sheer loss in APM alone is staggering, about 5-7.

 

Long story short, I would not recommend your rotation for anything other than parsing. It may be possible to make it work on Torque for instance, but I still would not do it. More RNG in a rotation is never a good thing. This is why I use the old DM 4-piece. You may be able to get better damage with great crits in the current 6-piece, but if you don't then you are going to have lower damage because you don't get as many abilities out. As far as the glitch goes, I will never recommend a rotation that is not legitimate, especially when you can't even trigger it intentionally. It seems to be completely random. So while you may be able to get higher dps once in a while, the dps loss on all those other parses/fights does not make it worth it. This is my opinion, but I don't see this alternate rotation being viable in any fights that really matter.

 

this rotation is viable in nearly all fights, and is even better when there are adds

One thing you miss when comparing TKW and tele burst is that TKW for some reason triggers weaken mind to hit more

Compare any of your parses to mine or even more so the top parser, the amount of extra hits is huge (it's a 196 dps gain, purely from weaken mind)

 

using 2 of my own parses, in equal gear, both trying to get max dps

ignoring all the RNG procs, because I'm lazy , crit % was nearly the same (in favor of the normal rotation actually)

link to my comparison, if you want to check

WM: +196 dps

MC: -119 dps

TKW: +677 dps

Tele Burst: -626 dps

Tele Gust: -9 dps

summing it all up, I gained a 119 dps from using this rotation VS the conventional one

(in this parse, the normal rotation version got WAAAY luckier on RNG -crit and procs both- than the alternative rotation, which is why it was only a 50 dps gain totaled up)

TKW VS Tele Burst is a small difference, so RNG can push it either way, but then there's still the HUGE increase from weaken mind (which, fyi, is not RNG dependent)

 

Indeed, you must use TKW and turbulence on CD for it to work, and thus delay MC, but it seems worth it

 

Is it viable? if it's a dps gain from a single target parse, then unless you're in a mobility heavy fight, yes, it's very viable (even more so if there's ANY adds)

 

About the glitch, it's FAR from random, I've been able to get it working for me for EVERY ops fight

I think it's a combination of hardcasting TKW and taking dmg, as using the above mentioned rotation seemed the most consistent in causing the glitch

And once you get the glitch, you must leave the normal rotation

 

Just one last thing, about it being viable for fights that matter, this rotation got me 8k dps on writhing horror nim, and glitched got me about 8.3k dps, I'd call that viable

The reason being the massive amount of aoe this rotation uses; single target it's close (I saw a consistent gain, you saw a small loss), so it's still viable, and add any additional target, even for a few seconds, and this rotation becomes superior

[DarthCognusSion]

this rotation is viable in nearly all fights, and is even better when there are adds

One thing you miss when comparing TKW and tele burst is that TKW for some reason triggers weaken mind to hit more

Compare any of your parses to mine or even more so the top parser, the amount of extra hits is huge (it's a 196 dps gain, purely from weaken mind)

 

using 2 of my own parses, in equal gear, both trying to get max dps

ignoring all the RNG procs, because I'm lazy , crit % was nearly the same (in favor of the normal rotation actually)

link to my comparison, if you want to check

WM: +196 dps

MC: -119 dps

TKW: +677 dps

Tele Burst: -626 dps

Tele Gust: -9 dps

summing it all up, I gained a 119 dps from using this rotation VS the conventional one

(in this parse, the normal rotation version got WAAAY luckier on RNG -crit and procs both- than the alternative rotation, which is why it was only a 50 dps gain totaled up)

TKW VS Tele Burst is a small difference, so RNG can push it either way, but then there's still the HUGE increase from weaken mind (which, fyi, is not RNG dependent)

 

Indeed, you must use TKW and turbulence on CD for it to work, and thus delay MC, but it seems worth it

 

Is it viable? if it's a dps gain from a single target parse, then unless you're in a mobility heavy fight, yes, it's very viable (even more so if there's ANY adds)

 

About the glitch, it's FAR from random, I've been able to get it working for me for EVERY ops fight

I think it's a combination of hardcasting TKW and taking dmg, as using the above mentioned rotation seemed the most consistent in causing the glitch

And once you get the glitch, you must leave the normal rotation

 

Just one last thing, about it being viable for fights that matter, this rotation got me 8k dps on writhing horror nim, and glitched got me about 8.3k dps, I'd call that viable

The reason being the massive amount of aoe this rotation uses; single target it's close (I saw a consistent gain, you saw a small loss), so it's still viable, and add any additional target, even for a few seconds, and this rotation becomes superior

 

As far as Weaken Mind goes, I will concede that you get more your way, but not as much as you think. The large gap in Weaken Mind hits in your 2 parses is partially explained by the fact that you did not use mental alacrity before your first Weaken Mind in the standard rotation but you did in your alternate rotation. As far as comparing anything to the top Sage parse, it doesn't matter because it utilizes a glitch therefore it is not legitimate, and regardless of how much you can make it happen, it is still a glitch and advocating it is something I will not do because it is not legitimate. Also to the point of viability, until I see some actual video and parsing evidence that shows that your way can even match the normal rotation, either this parse or this parse then I will remain unconvinced. If it is so good then it should be able to do so without a problem.

[mwissie]

As far as Weaken Mind goes, I will concede that you get more your way, but not as much as you think. The large gap in Weaken Mind hits in your 2 parses is partially explained by the fact that you did not use mental alacrity before your first Weaken Mind in the standard rotation but you did in your alternate rotation. As far as comparing anything to the top Sage parse, it doesn't matter because it utilizes a glitch therefore it is not legitimate, and regardless of how much you can make it happen, it is still a glitch and advocating it is something I will not do because it is not legitimate. Also to the point of viability, until I see some actual video and parsing evidence that shows that your way can even match the normal rotation, either this parse or this parse then I will remain unconvinced. If it is so good then it should be able to do so without a problem.

 

one question, what do you mean with viable? does it mean "best rotation" or "good enough to get nice dummy dps or get the boss down", and are we talking about ops viable or dummy viable?

 

ops viable:

it is, not glitched, nearly 8k dps, it's near impossible to link an ops parse that isn't glitched though.. since that happens on or before the first boss

 

dummy viable:

depends on which viable you mean, it's high enough to get into the leaderboards, but since you asked for another parse, here is one, 6227 dps, only 200 below the ones you linked; 200 dps below top parsers is close enough for me, don't care if you don't think the same

can't be bothered to get closer to his dps, since my gear isn't perfect, he got lucky on crits (4% more than me) and lucky on tele momentum (don't mean this stuff as an excuse btw, and I know the difference isn't that big)

(mute your sound if you don't like music )

 

If it is so good then it should be able to do so without a problem.

1. I'm not really a skilled parser, I HATE dummy parsing

2. top parses use purple adrenals, I can't be bothered with those (did use blue ones on the parse linked in this post)

3. top parses are partly lucky, and I can't be bothered to try until I get lucky

4. the single target dps is similar (though for !me! personally I always get higher dps this way), it IS "so good" if there's any add, at all, ever, like in a lot of ops fights

[DarthCognusSion]

one question, what do you mean with viable? does it mean "best rotation" or "good enough to get nice dummy dps or get the boss down", and are we talking about ops viable or dummy viable?

 

ops viable:

it is, not glitched, nearly 8k dps, it's near impossible to link an ops parse that isn't glitched though.. since that happens on or before the first boss

 

dummy viable:

depends on which viable you mean, it's high enough to get into the leaderboards, but since you asked for another parse, here is one, 6227 dps, only 200 below the ones you linked; 200 dps below top parsers is close enough for me, don't care if you don't think the same

can't be bothered to get closer to his dps, since my gear isn't perfect, he got lucky on crits (4% more than me) and lucky on tele momentum (don't mean this stuff as an excuse btw, and I know the difference isn't that big)

(mute your sound if you don't like music )

 

 

1. I'm not really a skilled parser, I HATE dummy parsing

2. top parses use purple adrenals, I can't be bothered with those (did use blue ones on the parse linked in this post)

3. top parses are partly lucky, and I can't be bothered to try until I get lucky

4. the single target dps is similar (though for !me! personally I always get higher dps this way), it IS "so good" if there's any add, at all, ever, like in a lot of ops fights

 

The 8k you linked doesn't matter because it is multi-target. What matter's is single target dps because most of the hardest fights in the game, Revan, Coratanni, Brontes, Styrak, Council, don't have adds or not enough to make AoE worth it. Also I never said it was a terrible rotation, just that it was sub-optimal. When I say this I am talking about a raiding scenario. I personally don't like dummy parsing either. As a matter of fact I hate it, but I still do it 100s of times a week because that is in the end how you improve. The rotation needs to become muscle memory so that you can do mechanics and not worry about what you need to do because you just do it. That being said I don't put a lot of stock into dummy parsing because I know that those top parses are just that one parse that had those amazing crits. That being said, when comparing 2 different rotations it can be a good starting point.

 

This is all getting away from my point about raid viability. Is it possible that this could work in raids? I cannot say that it can't work but working sometimes vs working all the time are 2 very different things. What I want, in a rotation, in gear, etc. is stability. Your rotation may have the potential to do higher dps than mine, but it is also going to go much lower if it doesn't get high crit on TK Wave/Chain Lightning. This is what happens when you sacrifice APM. High APM stabilizes the damage as you just have more consistent damage going out, but then you can still get those crits to make it great. Whereas with your rotation, when you get unlucky with crits, your damage is going to fall below what the higher APM averages.

 

Of course, everyone can use what they choose when it comes to a rotation. However, I am pointing out that yours has much higher variance than mine, which is why I would not recommend going with your way. This is why I said it is sub-optimal. Perhaps viability is a poor word choice, but when it comes to the harder more mobile fights, I just can't see this working.

[mwissie]

The 8k you linked doesn't matter because it is multi-target. What matter's is single target dps because most of the hardest fights in the game, Revan, Coratanni, Brontes, Styrak, Council, don't have adds or not enough to make AoE worth it. Also I never said it was a terrible rotation, just that it was sub-optimal. When I say this I am talking about a raiding scenario. I personally don't like dummy parsing either. As a matter of fact I hate it, but I still do it 100s of times a week because that is in the end how you improve. The rotation needs to become muscle memory so that you can do mechanics and not worry about what you need to do because you just do it. That being said I don't put a lot of stock into dummy parsing because I know that those top parses are just that one parse that had those amazing crits. That being said, when comparing 2 different rotations it can be a good starting point.

 

This is all getting away from my point about raid viability. Is it possible that this could work in raids? I cannot say that it can't work but working sometimes vs working all the time are 2 very different things. What I want, in a rotation, in gear, etc. is stability. Your rotation may have the potential to do higher dps than mine, but it is also going to go much lower if it doesn't get high crit on TK Wave/Chain Lightning. This is what happens when you sacrifice APM. High APM stabilizes the damage as you just have more consistent damage going out, but then you can still get those crits to make it great. Whereas with your rotation, when you get unlucky with crits, your damage is going to fall below what the higher APM averages.

 

Of course, everyone can use what they choose when it comes to a rotation. However, I am pointing out that yours has much higher variance than mine, which is why I would not recommend going with your way. This is why I said it is sub-optimal. Perhaps viability is a poor word choice, but when it comes to the harder more mobile fights, I just can't see this working.

 

true, there are fights where sacrificing mobility and evened out dmg VS aoe is not a good idea

but saying a rotation is sub-optimal, while only looking at single target fights is, in my opinion, stupid (no offense)

this rotation has about the same dps single target, if you don't have much movement needed, while doubling the aoe/'splash' dmg; you get my point I think

 

I've personally not tried revan or cor HM, but I can say that it works in most NiM fights, and for those where it doesn't: it's not very hard whatsoever to switch between the 2 rotations, or even only use hardcast part of the rotation when there are adds (it's worth it, the moment a 2nd target is in range of the splash)

 

about sustained dps and APM, I personally don't agree fully with with your sentiment of going for as stable dps as possible (which 'should' also mean that you take an alacrity and power heavy gearset, dropping some crit)

short version: it comes down to personal preference, I personally don't see huge variance in dps while using this rotation, but if you hate RNG, or RNG hates you, use whichever rotation you like

just remember that flattening out dps has a sweet spot, go too far and you lose dps

 

I'll give you this much though, on fights where you have targets with very low health (and thus the risk of hardcasting for nothing), this rotation is very sub-optimal; but on most other fights it depends on the player's skill and flexibility whether or not this works out for them

which is why I suggest people to try it for themselves before deciding whether or not they like it

 

that's actually the only reason I mentioned this rotation, and support it

it's a rotation that is viable (sometimes better, sometimes worse than the normal rotation), and for me personally is easier (which helps with the muscle memory thing you mentioned)

 

I think in the end we'd better just agree to disagree, we both have good points; we both know this rotation is possible, and has potentially good dps, while lacking mobility and stability; we just don't agree on whether or not the tradeoff is worth it, and I highly doubt we'll ever agree on that

 

 

I feel I should read your guide, and comment about that, not really fair/nice of me to have ignored it

well done on the guide, I think it'd be really helpful for anyone who's new to the spec, and the bit about affliction is probably new to most 'pros' as well

one thing I disagree with though, is that you give this spec a 7/10 for AoE dmg

ofc, it depends on how you grade things, but to me it feels relatively low

since lightning has THE best aoe burst, ingame, end of discussion

though for sustained aoe, I'd give the medal to sab/engi slinger/sniper, but lightning still is strong there

but that's a minor detail really, and doesn't have much to do with the actual guide

[antochx]

As far as Weaken Mind goes, I will concede that you get more your way, but not as much as you think. The large gap in Weaken Mind hits in your 2 parses is partially explained by the fact that you did not use mental alacrity before your first Weaken Mind in the standard rotation but you did in your alternate rotation. As far as comparing anything to the top Sage parse, it doesn't matter because it utilizes a glitch therefore it is not legitimate, and regardless of how much you can make it happen, it is still a glitch and advocating it is something I will not do because it is not legitimate. Also to the point of viability, until I see some actual video and parsing evidence that shows that your way can even match the normal rotation, either this parse or this parse then I will remain unconvinced. If it is so good then it should be able to do so without a problem.

 

you can call it whatever you want (glitch, bug ...) but it is not .

this is how TK work

 

how do you know it's a glitch, are you one of the dev and you know exactly how TK work ??

 

you talk about rightfulness but take a look at the parse you link before talking about it, it just has an amazing proc rate (10 proc of turndering blast, using a glitch maybe ) and I don't even mention the crit rate (50%)

 

I would also like to talk about another bug / glitche on balance / madness

with sorcerer the lightning burns are boosted and consumes deathmarck

but with sage the rippling force are not bossted and consumes no force suppression

the result is a significant loss of dps for the sage

Now, which of the 2 class are glitch / bug ?? sage or sorcerer impossible to say because I'm not a dev

[mwissie]

you can call it whatever you want (glitch, bug ...) but it is not .

this is how TK work

 

how do you know it's a glitch, are you one of the dev and you know exactly how TK work ??

 

you talk about rightfulness but take a look at the parse you link before talking about it, it just has an amazing proc rate (10 proc of turndering blast, using a glitch maybe ) and I don't even mention the crit rate (50%)

 

I would also like to talk about another bug / glitche on balance / madness

with sorcerer the lightning burns are boosted and consumes deathmarck

but with sage the rippling force are not bossted and consumes no force suppression

the result is a significant loss of dps for the sage

Now, which of the 2 class are glitch / bug ?? sage or sorcerer impossible to say because I'm not a dev

 

just to make sure

we're talking about the fact that after a period of time, TKWave suddenly becomes an instant cast (even without the proc), since the ability clearly states it has a cast time; there is only 1 proc which states that the NEXT TKWave will be instant (while the proc lasts, using TKWave consumes the proc); and since it takes some time before this happens, it's safe to say it's a glitch

this is both on rep and imp btw

 

your example of balance spec is a bug, I think for the sage, as force suppression buffs dots, and rippling force is a short dot, but you're right that it's sometimes not clear whether something is a bug or glitch, and what part of it is bugged; however, in this case it's a clear bug

 

this 'thing' is not explainable with RNG like the super high crit and proc-rates that the top parses have, and can't be explained with any passive or active buff/ability/proc; it can only be explained as a glitch

 

anyways, that was the glitch we were talking about, if you meant the alternative rotation not being a glitch? you're right, but we were agreed on that anyway

[Waferdanos]

About the glitch, it's FAR from random, I've been able to get it working for me for EVERY ops fight

I think it's a combination of hardcasting TKW and taking dmg, as using the above mentioned rotation seemed the most consistent in causing the glitch

Can you please describe what exactly you do in raid and in pvp duel to proc said glitch?

Tried to activate it with hard casting Chain Lightning, didnt work out.

 

ywith sorcerer the lightning burns are boosted and consumes deathmarck

but with sage the rippling force are not bossted and consumes no force suppression

the result is a significant loss of dps for the sage

Actually, it's other way around, this bug (and yes, it's certanly a bug) is a dps loss for Sith Sorcerer.

Thing is, Affliction, Creeping Terror or Demolish deal more damage per tick than Lightning Burns. Which means multiplication bonus from Death Marks gives you more, when it consumed by said DoTs, not by Lightning Burns.

[antochx]

just to make sure

we're talking about the fact that after a period of time, TKWave suddenly becomes an instant cast (even without the proc), since the ability clearly states it has a cast time; there is only 1 proc which states that the NEXT TKWave will be instant (while the proc lasts, using TKWave consumes the proc); and since it takes some time before this happens, it's safe to say it's a glitch

this is both on rep and imp btw

:

 

that's exactly what I'm talking

it's like clipping blade dance, 3 skil during precision windows, respecialization while in cover with gunsilnger

it's just a trick to do more and it is since the 3.0

I repeat this is not a glitch

 

Can you please describe what exactly you do in raid and in pvp duel to proc said glitch?

Tried to activate it with hard casting Chain Lightning, didnt work out.

 

it's very simple

get TKW under cooldowns

get pushback during your turbulence

 

Actually, it's other way around, this bug (and yes, it's certanly a bug) is a dps loss for Sith Sorcerer.

Thing is, Affliction, Creeping Terror or Demolish deal more damage per tick than Lightning Burns. Which means multiplication bonus from Death Marks gives you more, when it consumed by said DoTs, not by Lightning Burns.

 

it's funny to see that is the best dps who said that

there is not only 2 passive

there is also : Psychokinetic Torrent, Mental Scarring, Drain Thoughts

the result is still a significant loss of dps for the sage

[Waferdanos]

it's very simple get TKW under cooldowns get pushback during your turbulence

Sorry to ask again, just to make sure i've understood.

I sould put TW/CL on cooldown hard casting, than start casting TB/Tb and get pushback via incoming damage, right?

it's funny to see that is the best dps who said that

there is not only 2 passive

there is also : Psychokinetic Torrent, Mental Scarring, Drain Thoughts

the result is still a significant loss of dps for the sage

Unfortunatly, while i do have a sage toon, i dont play him at all, aside from crafting. So i may not know some sage specific things.

 

Are you sure that all passives, affecting DoTs, do not affect Rippling Force?

I was looking into this matter some time ago, i was under impression, that they all work.

Let's use mine parse and closest to mine sage parse (http://parsely.io/parser/view/105188/0 and http://parsely.io/parser/view/108237/3#damage-done).

On side note, this sage uses slightly more TT than i'm using FL(hence, he've got slightly more RF), but that's not that important for us. Also, i've feeling that my sorc have (had at that point at least) better gear, due to difference in damage for most abilities, and that we should keep in mind.

I've thought that the reason that LB was dealing slightly (130 on avg hit aint that much, with passives not working, the difference should be much more) more than his/her RF, is that LB actually consumes Death Marks.

Notice, that our DoTs deal pretty much same damage, while the difference should be in line with all others abilities.

 

Maybe i'm missing something, will be glad to be wrong.

Also, that all being said, if (if) you're right, the differnce in dps will be about 10. Which is not noticeble.

[antochx]

Sorry to ask again, just to make sure i've understood.

I sould put TW/CL on cooldown hard casting, than start casting TB/Tb and get pushback via incoming damage, right?

 

that's right

 

Unfortunatly, while i do have a sage toon, i dont play him at all, aside from crafting. So i may not know some sage specific things.

 

Are you sure that all passives, affecting DoTs, do not affect Rippling Force?

I was looking into this matter some time ago, i was under impression, that they all work.

Let's use mine parse and closest to mine sage parse (http://parsely.io/parser/view/105188/0 and http://parsely.io/parser/view/108237/3#damage-done).

On side note, this sage uses slightly more TT than i'm using FL(hence, he've got slightly more RF), but that's not that important for us. Also, i've feeling that my sorc have (had at that point at least) better gear, due to difference in damage for most abilities, and that we should keep in mind.

I've thought that the reason that LB was dealing slightly (130 on avg hit aint that much, with passives not working, the difference should be much more) more than his/her RF, is that LB actually consumes Death Marks.

Notice, that our DoTs deal pretty much same damage, while the difference should be in line with all others abilities.

 

Maybe i'm missing something, will be glad to be wrong.

Also, that all being said, if (if) you're right, the differnce in dps will be about 10. Which is not noticeble.

 

your exemple shows perfectly the problem

TT/FL and RF/LB have a common point, they don't have StandardHealthPercentMin/StandardHealthPercentMax

which means that the tick is not random

if i take the average tick of TT/FL : 1284/1282=1.001 it can be concluded they have the same stuff

now the average tick of RF/LB : 729/601=1.212 it can be concluded there is a differences of 21% that huge !!

[Waferdanos]

that's right

Trying it right now, does not work.

TB cast should be complited or interrupted?

 

 

your exemple shows perfectly the problem

TT/FL and RF/LB have a common point, they don't have StandardHealthPercentMin/StandardHealthPercentMax

which means that the tick is not random

if i take the average tick of TT/FL : 1284/1282=1.001 it can be concluded they have the same stuff

now the average tick of RF/LB : 729/601=1.212 it can be concluded there is a differences of 21% that huge !!

You're forgetting, that in my parse LB is consuming Death Marks, which boosts damage.

Again, In overall damage pool it's virtually nothing.

I would not even bother, seriously.

[antochx]

Trying it right now, does not work.

TB cast should be complited or interrupted?

juste make mwissie's rotation : TKWave (hardcast) > turbulence > TKWave (procced)

and get pushback during your turbulence

 

You're forgetting, that in my parse LB is consuming Death Marks, which boosts damage.

Again, In overall damage pool it's virtually nothing.

I would not even bother, seriously.

 

So you're okay there a problem that disadvantages sage

[DarthCognusSion]

I would ask that people stop discussing the glitched lightning rotation here. Though I disagree with hard cast Chain Lightning rotation, it is still legitimate, but the instant Chain Lightning without a proc is not. People are free to discuss it elsewhere, but I ask that in this thread only legitimate methods and ideas are discussed.

[mwissie]

Sorry op, this will be my last post about this

that's exactly what I'm talking

it's like clipping blade dance, 3 skil during precision windows, respecialization while in cover with gunsilnger

it's just a trick to do more and it is since the 3.0

I repeat this is not a glitch

 

saying it's not a glitch, and giving completely different examples doesn't stop it from being a glitch..

I suppose it depends on what you call a glitch; but since you have to actively try to alter the functioning of the ability, to something which is only supposed to be possible once every 10ish seconds

It's different from stopping a channel early because all ticks have happened, or using high alacrity or whatever for increased precision window ability use, don't know the gunslinger thing

I'd call it a glitch, couldn't care less what you wanna call it, as long as you don't keep saying I'm wrong, without valid arguments or a definition of "glitch"

 

And to the other guy: just use the rotation I mentioned above and it'll happen soon enough

Haven't spend time testing when it happens, but it always happened while taking dmg and with using hardcasted TKW

Getting dmg while casting turbulence seems about right (but didn't test/check it)

[antochx]

Sorry op, this will be my last post about this

saying it's not a glitch, and giving completely different examples doesn't stop it from being a glitch..

I suppose it depends on what you call a glitch; but since you have to actively try to alter the functioning of the ability, to something which is only supposed to be possible once every 10ish seconds

It's different from stopping a channel early because all ticks have happened, or using high alacrity or whatever for increased precision window ability use, don't know the gunslinger thing

I'd call it a glitch, couldn't care less what you wanna call it, as long as you don't keep saying I'm wrong, without valid arguments or a definition of "glitch"

 

And to the other guy: just use the rotation I mentioned above and it'll happen soon enough

Haven't spend time testing when it happens, but it always happened while taking dmg and with using hardcasted TKW

Getting dmg while casting turbulence seems about right (but didn't test/check it)

 

for you a glitch is something does not work correctly

if a cast is clipped you don't have to make all damage, it is not the case with clipping blade dance

if a skill make boost to other skill AFTER using it, it is not just supposed to boost skill before !

you know just a sentinel that says this is a glitch

so they are both glitch

as I said in my first post is not really able to judge whether si a glitch or not

especially since this in 3.0 there were lots of patch to fix it and there are always here

 

I would ask that people stop discussing the glitched lightning rotation here. Though I disagree with hard cast Chain Lightning rotation, it is still legitimate, but the instant Chain Lightning without a proc is not. People are free to discuss it elsewhere, but I ask that in this thread only legitimate methods and ideas are discussed.

Sorry for that

Edited January 26, 2016 by antochx

[MusicRider]

Regarding the discussion about hard-casting rotationally wave or not.

 

So time of wave ~= 2x bursts. Damage of 2x bursts > wave under pretty much all circumstances except from when wave crits and neither of 2x bursts crit.

 

Assume 40% crit rate and let's ignore extra crits and double procs (which from the top of my head are the same for both). So to get a crit wave you have 40% chance. With at least 1/2 bursts critting 2x bursts do more damage. The chance of that happening is 64%. The chance of wave critting and neither of the 2 bursts doing so is 26%, kind of unlikely.

 

Can test that empirically over many long parses by hitting only with burst+instant wave Vs hard-cast wave+burst+instant wave, since luckily bolt does proc it .

 

PS: +1 for guide to be stickied. Would save repeating the same things over and over to newcomers to the game.

Edited January 27, 2016 by MusicRider

[MusicRider]

PPS: Alternatively can be tested. 40gcds = 60s (0 alacrity) and 40% crit.

 

(a) inst cycle: 1.5+1.5+5x1.5 = 10.5s

(b) hard-cast cycle: 2.5+1.5+1.5 + 4.x1.5 = 11.5s

 

(a) fits in 60s 5 times + 7.5s

(b) fits in 60s 5 times + 2.5s.

 

(a) has 35+4=39 bursts and 5+1=6 waves

(b) has 25 bursts and 10+1=11 waves

 

(a) damage: 39*mean_burst*0.6 + 39*crit_mean_burst*0.4 + 6*mean_wave*0.4 + 6*crit_mean_wave*0.6

(b) damage: 25*mean_burst*0.6 + 25*crit_mean_burst*0.4 + 11*mean_wave*0.4 + 11*crit_mean_wave*0.6

 

Who is higher?

 

PS on PPS: Do acknowledge it depends on the cutoff of the time duration. Eg. Probably cutoff duration at 54-55s might benefit (a) while 60s might benefit (b), but over a long fight the difference should be insignificant.

Edited January 27, 2016 by MusicRider

[DarthCognusSion]

If you really want the detailed breakdown, I asked Bant to run the numbers for me. Here they are:

 

Standard Rotation: 6412 DPS

 

Input Settings:

Sorcerer - Lightning

ilvl 224, All Augment Combinations Tested, All Debuffs applied, 39.87% Operations Dummy, Output mode set to: Full Accuracy

 

5372 Mastery

6410 Endurance

2931 Power

1287 Critical

796 Alacrity

701 Accuracy

5 Critical Augments; 4 Alacrity Augments; 5 Accuracy Augments; 2 Eviscerating Crystals;

 

Calculated Stats: (without Procs)

Damage: 2644-3048

OH Damage: -

Bonus Damage: 1835.9

Accuracy: 110.19%

OH Accuracy: 76.19%

Crit Chance: 38.78%

Crit Bonus: 68.04%

Bonus Special: 2616.4

Bonus Heal: 1889.8

Special Accuracy: 110.19%

Special Crit Chance: 38.78%

Special Crit Bonus: 68.04%

Alacrity: 8.48%

Health: 80883

Armor Rating: 3987

Damage Reduction: 19.56%

Defense Chance: 10.00%

Shield Chance: 0.00%

Absorb Percent: 0.00%

Mastery Relic Uptime: 32.22%

Power Relic Uptime: 27.74%

 

Average DPS: 6412

30% of time spent sub 30% HP

48.86 APM

 

Ability, Tooltip, Average Damage, Normal Hit, Normal Crit, Crit Percent, Time between uses, DPS, Percent of Total;

Lightning Bolt, 4689-4867, 4418.59, 3453.5, 5803.15, 41.07%, 2.38s, 1857.49, 28.97%;

Thundering Blast, 5424-5603, 13563.69, 6501.24, 13563.69, 100.00%, 8.92s, 1520.51, 23.71%;

Chain Lightning, 6465-6644, 7090.34, 5211.25, 9277.93, 46.21%, 8.92s, 794.84, 12.4%;

Affliction, 980, 1464.08, 1155.78, 1942.13, 39.21%, 1.91s, 766.33, 11.95%;

Lightning Flash, 6312-6491, 6446.8, 4626.81, 8237.41, 50.41%, 14.27s, 451.68, 7.04%;

Crushing Darkness DOT, 5421, 5117.26, 653.07, 1162.7, 39.21%, 14.27s, 358.53, 5.59%;

Crushing Darkness, 3678-3857, 3556.06, 2722.95, 4847.85, 39.21%, 14.27s, 249.15, 3.89%;

Lightning Bolt (Forked Lightning), 1225-1180, 1100.69, 868.91, 1460.09, 39.21%, 7.84s, 140.47, 2.19%;

Thundering Blast (Forked Darkness), 1356-1401, 3390.92, 1625.31, 3390.92, 100.00%, 35.68s, 95.03, 1.48%;

Crushing Darkness DOT (Forked Darkness), 904, 852.88, 653.07, 1162.7, 39.21%, 9.52s, 89.63, 1.4%;

Chain Lightning (Forked Lightning), 1616-1661, 1701.42, 1302.81, 2319.48, 39.21%, 29.39s, 57.9, 0.9%;

Lightning Flash (Forked Lightning), 1479-1523, 1416.64, 1084.75, 1931.26, 39.21%, 47.02s, 30.13, 0.47%;

 

 

Hardcasting Chain Lightning: 6184 DPS

 

Input Settings:

Sorcerer - Lightning

ilvl 224, All Augment Combinations Tested, All Debuffs applied, 39.87% Operations Dummy, Output mode set to: Full Accuracy

 

5372 Mastery

6410 Endurance

2931 Power

1287 Critical

796 Alacrity

701 Accuracy

5 Critical Augments; 4 Alacrity Augments; 5 Accuracy Augments; 2 Eviscerating Crystals;

 

Calculated Stats: (without Procs)

Damage: 2644-3048

OH Damage: -

Bonus Damage: 1835.9

Accuracy: 110.19%

OH Accuracy: 76.19%

Crit Chance: 38.78%

Crit Bonus: 68.04%

Bonus Special: 2616.4

Bonus Heal: 1889.8

Special Accuracy: 110.19%

Special Crit Chance: 38.78%

Special Crit Bonus: 68.04%

Alacrity: 8.48%

Health: 80883

Armor Rating: 3987

Damage Reduction: 19.56%

Defense Chance: 10.00%

Shield Chance: 0.00%

Absorb Percent: 0.00%

Mastery Relic Uptime: 31.93%

Power Relic Uptime: 27.55%

 

Average DPS: 6186

30% of time spent sub 30% HP

42.05 APM

 

Ability, Tooltip, Average Damage, Normal Hit, Normal Crit, Crit Percent, Time between uses, DPS, Percent of Total;

Chain Lightning, 6465-6644, 6945.57, 5209.54, 9274.88, 42.70%, 4.47s, 1555.31, 25.14%;

Thundering Blast, 5424-5603, 13559.05, 6499.11, 13559.05, 100.00%, 8.93s, 1518.13, 24.54%;

Lightning Bolt, 4689-4867, 4455.41, 3452.37, 5801.24, 42.70%, 4.47s, 997.7, 16.13%;

Affliction, 980, 1463.57, 1155.4, 1941.49, 39.20%, 1.66s, 882.37, 14.26%;

Lightning Flash, 6312-6491, 6545.62, 4625.29, 8234.71, 53.20%, 17.86s, 366.44, 5.92%;

Crushing Darkness DOT, 5421, 5115.47, 652.85, 1162.31, 39.20%, 17.86s, 286.38, 4.63%;

Crushing Darkness, 3678-3857, 3554.82, 2722.06, 4846.26, 39.20%, 17.86s, 199.01, 3.22%;

Chain Lightning (Forked Lightning), 1616-1661, 1700.82, 1302.38, 2318.72, 39.20%, 14.71s, 115.62, 1.87%;

Thundering Blast (Forked Darkness), 1356-1401, 3389.76, 1624.78, 3389.76, 100.00%, 35.73s, 94.88, 1.53%;

Lightning Bolt (Forked Lightning), 1225-1180, 1100.31, 868.62, 1459.61, 39.20%, 14.71s, 74.8, 1.21%;

Crushing Darkness DOT (Forked Darkness), 904, 852.58, 652.85, 1162.31, 39.20%, 11.91s, 71.59, 1.16%;

Lightning Flash (Forked Lightning), 1479-1523, 1416.15, 1084.4, 1930.62, 39.20%, 58.84s, 24.07, 0.39%;

 

 

Long story short, unless there are adds there is no reason to hardcast chain lightning, and even then once they have the AoE debuff, Force Storm spam until CL proc is probably about as good.