Tank's doing some dps is good but...

[James_Mcturney]

Tanks can overperform (be more effective, not dps numbers) some dps in PvP or do just as good, while redirecting loads of damage + being 2x harder to kill.

Does BW want PvP to be only tank + healer (sage mostly) groups with the eventual sniper+ merc/commando for debuffs or something?

 

The current gameplay is the epitome of boredom, pvp is about action, quick thinking, quick reaction, creativity, juking, coordination... but atm the game is like hitting parse dummies-"month"-flavored that don't really need to move, therefore people with the most boredom-resilience + best parse player/class will win matches. Some very slow, repetitive and stalemated matches that can go for hours (hypergate, denova..).

The most fun matches i ever had in pvp were 4v4's KILL OR BE KILLED, DpS only, hope more people agree to this.

A possible solution is to nerf guard PvP protection, which won't affect PvE obviously. Another option is to nerf sage's, specially healing spec, but the problem can return later in a similar way because guard is very strong. Currently an obnoxious 50% of all damage.

 

Second you must improve how shielding/absorption works for PvP, while maybe changing defense overall,

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=857264 on this thread there is a solution which makes lots of sense (imho haha xD). Beause atm only dps geared tanks are worth anything in PvP, and by doing so, the old 1 tank = 1 dps is not true anymore even in a non healer-scenario, while allied with healers, it might as well be 2.5 dps worth (not talking damage numbers, but effectiveness).

 

People can come and say "but the most skilled, most godlike and pro ubber players with perfect dps kill those healers and win matches easy on my server, for i am one of them". Well, confreakingrats, the point in here is, sage healers (when properly guarded) can faceroll the keyboard while healing awesome numbers, i.e. they don't require the ammount of skill needed for a select group of dps to kill them, and it's not a small diference: That is the definition of unbalanced gameplay.

 

For ranked solo, btw, ppl don't want to be queued with the non-sage healer*, which brings another common sense that anyone with the brains/experience knows (if they are not biased...), and that has enough threads to talk for.

*Just check ranked season's average scores; conclusion - last balance patch was decent but we need more changes ASAP.

Edited December 15, 2015 by James_Mcturney
pease let me edit the tittle so i don't get any more trolls or stupid people that only read the tittle...

[NikSunrider]

Blah blah tanks 2 stronk blah blah.

 

With the latest patch, tanks got a not-insignificant nerf.

 

That was less then a week ago.

 

I have been in the position of out-doing DPS as a tank. Yes. There is something bad about this. There is no way my tank Shadow should be doing more damage than a slinger, mando and sage combined. But it happened a few times

 

No, this is not because the other classes are underpoerforming, or I am overperforming - the issue is that people do not know how to play their classes.

 

If a tank is better then you with DPS, you really need to practice your class and gear up.

 

I get 1.3mil on a good game. If that is a good game, the DPS do 1.5mil+. When DPS do 200k and I do 800k, that's just peope needing to learn how to play them.

[alexsamma]

Blah blah tanks 2 stronk blah blah.

 

With the latest patch, tanks got a not-insignificant nerf.

 

That was less then a week ago.

 

I have been in the position of out-doing DPS as a tank. Yes. There is something bad about this. There is no way my tank Shadow should be doing more damage than a slinger, mando and sage combined. But it happened a few times

 

No, this is not because the other classes are underpoerforming, or I am overperforming - the issue is that people do not know how to play their classes.

 

If a tank is better then you with DPS, you really need to practice your class and gear up.

 

I get 1.3mil on a good game. If that is a good game, the DPS do 1.5mil+. When DPS do 200k and I do 800k, that's just peope needing to learn how to play them.

 

Tanks outdpsing dps should only happen when they have superior uptime and are allowed to spread their damage out while the dps on their team have less uptime/are being taunted/controlled/etc, otherwise you are playing with unskilled dps.

 

THAT being said, tank dps is over the top, especially when you consider that they are also spreading an aoe trauma debuff, you can literally make a premade of 1 healer and 3 tanks in dps gear and win the majority of your matches because tanks are capable of pumping out 2-2.5k dps with ease, and in matches where they are allowed to concentrate on aoeing into groups 3-4k is possible and all of this is on top of the trauma debuff + superior control + superior defenses.

[NikSunrider]

And 3 tanks will be easily counterd by 2 slingers, 1 tank and 1 healer. Becuase the value of a tank is guarswap, and they can't guardswap with 3 tanks.

[DarrelK]

Who needs guard when you are a tank... Tank dps is overtoned, considering how easy it is. VG tanks have been broken like that even pre-4.0 (see leaderboards), 4.0 shadow tanks had too much dps, and now guardian tanks have high dps. Combine that with the fact that burst dps classes do not burst hard enough anymore, and bam, there you go. Nobody cares about guard. Edited December 14, 2015 by DarrelK

[James_Mcturney]

Who needs guard when you are a tank... Tank dps is overtoned, considering how easy it is. VG tanks have been broken like that even pre-4.0 (see leaderboards), 4.0 shadow tanks had too much dps, and now guardian tanks have high dps. Combine that with the fact that burst dps classes do not burst hard enough anymore, and bam, there you go. Nobody cares about guard.

 

I like the fact that tanks are doing nice damage when geared for it.

 

Problem 1 is: gearing as dps is the only viable option considering how absorption/defense works.

 

Problem 2 is: sage healer + tank dps is a very strong combo, only very good dps/team can deal with this, and imo it requires 3 or maybe 4 depending on the class combination (net +healing debuff should make it easy, but again, this is only a regs cenario) if their skill level is equivalent to destroy the tank+healer combo... problem is, how long does it take? reinforcements will arrive and anihilate what is left of the dps if they don't have tank + healers themselves to back it up. Or if it's 4's, the game will mostly end in acid - sudden death, which, i don't know, is a huge sign that something is wrong!?

 

Anyway, i don't know, seems like you guys like stalemates so much, playing lowbies is awesome because how fast people die... it doesn't need to be that fast in 65's but nor so slow/immortal in the current metagame.

 

maybe i just screwed up another good thread/idea i had with a bad tittle? since people are not adressing my main points again lmao.

Edited December 14, 2015 by James_Mcturney

[Jadescythe]

I've seen some very good tanks recently in PvP. None of them come close to my output in a DPS spec. If this is happening to you, you may need to evaluate your play to ensure you are doing everything you need to.

[James_Mcturney]

I've seen some very good tanks recently in PvP. None of them come close to my output in a DPS spec. If this is happening to you, you may need to evaluate your play to ensure you are doing everything you need to.

 

geezus =d not its not happening to me

[Jadescythe]

geezus =d not its not happening to me

 

Are you looking for serious responses with this thread? If you want deaths more often, then functional defense and absorbtion stats won't help. If you think Sorc/Sage healers are just afk healing their lives away, then you've never played one. If you think anything is hard to kill, then you've never played a PT/VG.

 

The ONLY reason healers (and the people they are healing) are hard to kill currently is because the people PvPing are garbage tier. Literally players in the hundreds for DPS and wondering why nothing will die. Shockingly, 500 DPS into a 70k health pool isn't killing anyone.

[ilektro_logos]

Blah blah tanks 2 stronk blah blah.

 

With the latest patch, tanks got a not-insignificant nerf.

 

That was less then a week ago.

 

I have been in the position of out-doing DPS as a tank. Yes. There is something bad about this. There is no way my tank Shadow should be doing more damage than a slinger, mando and sage combined. But it happened a few times

 

No, this is not because the other classes are underpoerforming, or I am overperforming - the issue is that people do not know how to play their classes.

 

If a tank is better then you with DPS, you really need to practice your class and gear up.

 

I get 1.3mil on a good game. If that is a good game, the DPS do 1.5mil+. When DPS do 200k and I do 800k, that's just peope needing to learn how to play them.

 

No my friend ure wrong. its not about classes and players its about surviveability in a wz's given time. U stay alive longer, with a good healer on ur back forever, so u deal those 1.3 and 1.5 mils at an ordinary warzone. More on that lets think that dps classes are focus magnets and basically struggling to do their part even with a good healer supporting them,in compare to you who actually play Pve in a zone with Pcs.

So if a tank is better than me in dps in a warzone, its more like that IM actually the tank taunting e1- giving u the option to do ur 1.5 mils dps.

Edited December 14, 2015 by ilektro_logos

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Blah blah tanks 2 stronk blah blah.

 

With the latest patch, tanks got a not-insignificant nerf.

 

That was less then a week ago.

 

I have been in the position of out-doing DPS as a tank. Yes. There is something bad about this. There is no way my tank Shadow should be doing more damage than a slinger, mando and sage combined. But it happened a few times

 

No, this is not because the other classes are underpoerforming, or I am overperforming - the issue is that people do not know how to play their classes.

 

If a tank is better then you with DPS, you really need to practice your class and gear up.

 

I get 1.3mil on a good game. If that is a good game, the DPS do 1.5mil+. When DPS do 200k and I do 800k, that's just peope needing to learn how to play them.

 

Jugg Tanks got the **** buffed out of them, and Powertech Tanks got a really annoying and un-needed gimp.

 

Seriously 11% reduction to Firestorm? That's like, nothing... Sure, Sin tanks got a big gimp, but that was because Shock was doing 17k Supercrits as a Tank...

[Snotrq]

If a tank does 1,5M damage in a warzone, I assume it had nearly 100% uptime and spammed aoe all day long within a packed team. In this exact same setup Hatred sin will do > 12k dps

 

Uptime is the key word here, warzone numbers don't show it but think about it a minute. A tank spamming aoe in the hearth of the fight during 10mn, and a dps nodeguarding: which one will have the best numbers in the end?

 

But this dps, with same uptime and aoeing the same will do more far more damage (assuming he's as skilled as the tank). Another explanation for tank having better uptime: they are healed in priority because they are likely guarding a heal or a carry, when dps lose uptime when they go h2f or whatever.

[Beyrahl]

But.. I like dpsing as darkness, plus guarding my sorc healer. ;^]

Don't ruin the fun.

 

Hit a 21k Shock so far. 6-8k Dep volt ticks, it's a lot of fun.

[MasterFeign]

I got into an arena with my jugg tank, and there were 3 other jugg tanks on my team. I think all 4 of us were wearing some amount of dps gear.

 

Anywho, we were against 4 dps. We didn't guard each other. By the end of the first round, we had lost 1 tank, but had ultimately won, with the rest of us having more than 75% of our health.

 

The 2nd round no one on my team died.

 

Of course we also completely out DPSed them as well. I thought I had taken a screenshot too, but it did not save as normal.

 

I don't think it's the DPS that's so much the issue (just a little bit, since the change of crit and accuracy too) but to do with the active CDs of a jugg. Not sure how this translates with the other tanks though.

[James_Mcturney]

Are you looking for serious responses with this thread? If you want deaths more often, then functional defense and absorbtion stats won't help. If you think Sorc/Sage healers are just afk healing their lives away, then you've never played one. If you think anything is hard to kill, then you've never played a PT/VG.

 

The ONLY reason healers (and the people they are healing) are hard to kill currently is because the people PvPing are garbage tier. Literally players in the hundreds for DPS and wondering why nothing will die. Shockingly, 500 DPS into a 70k health pool isn't killing anyone.

 

Of course, game is perfectly balanced, the only reason everyone is playing multiple tanks with dps gear ONLY (a mix i would understand but, FULL DPS GEAR, except maybe for the set bonuses) + multiple sage healers all the time is because they have the hardest skill cap and therefore the most funny.

 

Maybe the dps in my server are bad, The Ebon Hawk is a RP server, but if the most played classes are well known 1 or 2, amongst 8, then something is wrong.

[MasterFeign]

Granted, I've also been noticing an influx of bad dpsers. People not attacking the healer, people not interrupting, people calling very late. I mean, this has always been a problem, but I think it's grown since there have been the 60 tokens, among other things.

[Jadescythe]

Of course, game is perfectly balanced, the only reason everyone is playing multiple tanks with dps gear ONLY (a mix i would understand but, FULL DPS GEAR, except maybe for the set bonuses) + multiple sage healers all the time is because they have the hardest skill cap and therefore the most funny.

 

Maybe the dps in my server are bad, The Ebon Hawk is a RP server, but if the most played classes are well known 1 or 2, amongst 8, then something is wrong.

 

Let me know when your tank in DPS gear starts doing 3k DPS and I'll care. Until then, I'm far surpassing the damage Jugg/Guardian tanks do when I run Vig/Veng.

[AlrikFassbauer]

playing lowbies is awesome because how fast people die...

 

So ... You are a farmer ?

[AlrikFassbauer]

I got into an arena with my jugg tank, and there were 3 other jugg tanks on my team. I think all 4 of us were wearing some amount of dps gear.

 

Anywho, we were against 4 dps. We didn't guard each other. By the end of the first round, we had lost 1 tank, but had ultimately won, with the rest of us having more than 75% of our health.

 

The 2nd round no one on my team died.

 

Of course we also completely out DPSed them as well. I thought I had taken a screenshot too, but it did not save as normal.

 

I don't think it's the DPS that's so much the issue (just a little bit, since the change of crit and accuracy too) but to do with the active CDs of a jugg. Not sure how this translates with the other tanks though.

 

I'm seeing a similar thing more and more often.

 

I guess we have reached a new Age Of Hybrids.

[Dethla-Hadyn]

...now they're crying about jug tank dps?

 

Go get a life people, lmao, this is priceless.

[MasterFeign]

I'm seeing a similar thing more and more often.

 

I guess we have reached a new Age Of Hybrids.

 

Myself, I gear my jugg tank with high endurance dps mods and enhancements, and use fortitude augs and the stim. I use the one absorb relic (I end up with 84.2k health). A friend of mine, just went full dps gear and had the usual 71k health. It was a Novare Coast and we did at least have one or two healers (so there's the uptime/survivability), with that being said, it was a moderately fast game, and I ended up with something around 1.1-1.3 mill dps while my friend broke 2 mill. With both of us having high protection. I was the runner and occasional guard too.

 

I've also been noticing that a lot of people are attacking my tank in general, instead of, say, the healer. I think a 4 tank with full dps gear team would be interesting in group ranked though. They get the enemy team together and they can easily have consecutive 12k aoes. 48k damage (+/- protection) to 4 players while the healer is stunned, would certainly send the healer into a panic.

[Jadescythe]

Myself, I gear my jugg tank with high endurance dps mods and enhancements, and use fortitude augs and the stim. I use the one absorb relic (I end up with 84.2k health). A friend of mine, just went full dps gear and had the usual 71k health. It was a Novare Coast and we did at least have one or two healers (so there's the uptime/survivability), with that being said, it was a moderately fast game, and I ended up with something around 1.1-1.3 mill dps while my friend broke 2 mill. With both of us having high protection. I was the runner and occasional guard too.

 

I've also been noticing that a lot of people are attacking my tank in general, instead of, say, the healer. I think a 4 tank with full dps gear team would be interesting in group ranked though. They get the enemy team together and they can easily have consecutive 12k aoes. 48k damage (+/- protection) to 4 players while the healer is stunned, would certainly send the healer into a panic.

 

The effectiveness of 4 tanks is severely diminished when you can only use 2 guards and it's difficult to swap those guards (1 has to be removed before they can guard). You also have no burst, so while you can do decent sustained damage through AoE (if they are melee heavy I guess), any healer/tank combo who can't keep up with you probably shouldn't be in ranked.

[MasterFeign]

The effectiveness of 4 tanks is severely diminished when you can only use 2 guards and it's difficult to swap those guards (1 has to be removed before they can guard). You also have no burst, so while you can do decent sustained damage through AoE (if they are melee heavy I guess), any healer/tank combo who can't keep up with you probably shouldn't be in ranked.

 

Though a 4 man team focusing on 1 tank at a time would also take a long time. I don't think taunts stack though, but I don't think guarding would be an issue.

 

Now if it was 4 jugg tanks in dps gear vs. 4 madness sorcs... xD

 

But yeah, a guarded healer should pretty much have no issue. Unless if they use their stun break at the wrong time and the tank team managed to stun both the healer and tank, before blowing up a dps.

[XyriusSES]

Sounds like a case of DPS playing poorly.

[James_Mcturney]

...now they're crying about jug tank dps?

Go get a life people, lmao, this is priceless.

 

I never complained about dps, it's funny with the ammount of ad hominen falacies.. \/

So ... You are a farmer ?

and bad interpretations, or people that use this forums but don't freaking read the mainthread AT THE VERY LEAST....

 

If a tank is using full dps gear, then ok, the numbers are reasonable. Problem is when they can outperform dps because they don't die, while at the same time making 1 healer (sage probably/mostly) invulnerable, thus, by doing that, they also become raid boss level diehard.

Let me know when your tank in DPS gear starts doing 3k DPS and I'll care. Until then, I'm far surpassing the damage Jugg/Guardian tanks do when I run Vig/Veng.

 

PROBLEM is not about dps. GOD how the hell could i screw up this thread so much because of the tittle, it seems like it's the only thing people READ. :mad:

Edited December 15, 2015 by James_Mcturney