Is Satele Shan a failure?

[QuinlanSaathis]

So far as I can tell, Mace Windu was the Grand Master, but Yoda was the more adept at using the force. The Grand Master's function in that of most any organization is that of administrator, in the most positive sense of the term.

 

This is not correct.

Yoda is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order meaning he runs the whole show.

Mace is the leader of the Jedi Council, he runs the day to day affairs of the council while Yoda runs the entire order.

[Ghisallo]

To be fair...

 

If Yoda is 900 when Luke is a man, then we never see him younger than about 850 years old. Even if you assume he only biologically ages one year per chronological ten, he is ancient. In these twilight years, we see him take down one Sith (who has to flee to survive), go toe to toe with the Emperor, and slice through clones like a lightsaber through butter.

 

And that's when he is ancient. Satele Shan is still in her prime during the events of SWTOR, and fails to accomplish virtually anything of note.

 

She beats Darth Malgus (this universe's analogue of Darth Vader imo), blowing a hole in a mountain in the process, organizes the Jedi Resistance to the Sith over all...leads fleets into battle, shows a talent for one of the rarest of Jedi Abilities (Force Meditation) You are looking at things via a Dragon Ball Z metric.

 

If we were to use your analysis irl then Patton did not do much in his life. I mean only 46th out of over a hundred students at West Point, could catch Pancho Villa, only finished 5th in the Pentathlon in the 1912 Olympics, got shot in the thigh in WWI. Forget about the Sicily Campaign or the liberating of Bastogne, he didn't get 106 confirmed kills like Chris Kyle did so Patton did nothing in his life.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[adormitul]

Okay first of all you can not be fired from the position of grand master you can quit or die. Yeah its for life and also among all the jedi of the order she is the most accomplished jedi after the hero of tython and the JC and JC is part of the council or was after KOTFE doubt there is a council. If she dies or quits JC would probably replace her but well not anymore with KOTFE.

[Slowpokeking]

I think she's a boring character with great potential to be developed.

[Lunafox]

If Shan and Marr weren't siblings before this post, some writer had better read it and make it so. It's the only rational explanation for his force ghost to appear to her

 

That's really going to throw a wrench in my fanfic LOL

 

That would make my JK and Theron cousins...first cousins. Wow...that wouldn't bode well for the romance lol.

 

 

Anyways, that aside, I do feel like Satele hasn't amounted to much. This business of camping while everyone else is slogging is BS. I suppose it's so that our outlanders can lead, cause if she's around people might look to her...but there should have been a better way to occupy her than to roast marshmellows. At least Marr is dead, he has a good excuse to chill out, but why her...

Edited December 9, 2015 by Lunafox

[Kingsbount]

She beats Darth Malgus (this universe's analogue of Darth Vader imo), blowing a hole in a mountain in the process

 

Yes, she is... Oh wait.

She would be a pile of burned flesh if she wasn't saved:

1. By her master

2. By brave little trooper. A FREAKING TROOPER!!!

 

Seriously, dude. She wasn't even close to beat Darth Malgus. Im not gonna even talk about, what would Marr do with her...

 

 

P.S. Compare to Consular and Knight protagonists - they would look much better as leaders of Jedi Order than Satele.

[TX_Angel]

Maybe I'm misremembering this trailer, but wasn't she a padawan during that trailer? If so, I would think these "mistakes" would be forgivable considering who she was fighting, and how much more BA she was in the next trailer she's in.

 

Yep, she wasn't even a Jedi yet at that point...

 

Considering how powerful Malgus was, she did quite well, which is why her Master told her to flee, he knew the battle could not be won, he was simply buying time.

[BrianDavion]

Yes, she is... Oh wait.

She would be a pile of burned flesh if she wasn't saved:

1. By her master

2. By brave little trooper. A FREAKING TROOPER!!!

 

Seriously, dude. She wasn't even close to beat Darth Malgus. Im not gonna even talk about, what would Marr do with her...

 

 

P.S. Compare to Consular and Knight protagonists - they would look much better as leaders of Jedi Order than Satele.

 

 

yes Satele struggled to defeat someone, HOW DARE SHE!

[Ghisallo]

Yes, she is... Oh wait.

She would be a pile of burned flesh if she wasn't saved:

1. By her master

2. By brave little trooper. A FREAKING TROOPER!!!

 

Seriously, dude. She wasn't even close to beat Darth Malgus. Im not gonna even talk about, what would Marr do with her...

 

 

P.S. Compare to Consular and Knight protagonists - they would look much better as leaders of Jedi Order than Satele.

 

So blasting a hole in the side of a mountain doesn't matter? Alright then and in the first fight she was just a padawan so I would say sensing the Sith Fleet Inc when her master did not and acquiring herself as well as she did in the fight is a sign of good things. Also her rediscovery of Tython was NOT based on archeology she was drawn across the Galaxy by the Force itself.

 

Also see my Patton reference in a follow up post. This is not Dragon Ball Z, it is the Old Republic and in the EU of the Old Republic some of the greatest movers and shakers among the Jedi were not those with the most raw power/damage, but again, even then, her shattering that mountain sure as heck is a DBZ worthy moment.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ghisallo

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Yes, she is... Oh wait.

She would be a pile of burned flesh if she wasn't saved:

1. By her master

2. By brave little trooper. A FREAKING TROOPER!!!

 

Seriously, dude. She wasn't even close to beat Darth Malgus. Im not gonna even talk about, what would Marr do with her...

 

As noted, she was a padawan in the first trailer so her being saved by her master isn't exactly a knock on her. She was still training, so why are we shocked that she wasn't wrecking everything? The events of the Hope trailer (which I'll talk about next) were fourteen years later.

 

The trooper, though, that one you need some context for. Malcom didn't "save her". He distracted Malgus and gave her a reprieve, sure, but Satele had already "blocked" the attack Malgus was making at the time by repelling a stab from his lightsaber with her hand. When she and Malgus re-engaged, she didn't take him by surprise. He stood up, looked straight at her, ready to re-engage... and she promptly blew him into a mountain with the Force. She beat Malgus. The best you could do is argue that Malcom interfering "discredits" that, at which point I'd say she was holding her own with him until then so that plus her blowing him into a mountain qualifies as at least "coming close."

 

Also, it's good to note that the trooper who "saved" her was able to do so because she definitely saved him from being executed by the Sith, after racing across Alderaan to get to him. She then blew through several Sith and an Imperial War Droid on her way to Malgus to start that fight in the first place.

 

if you'd like to see this again, you're underselling her performance in this battle tremendously.

 

As for everything else, it seems like everybody is using her accomplishments in the cinematics and in game without considering anything else in between. It's not as if she helped the Republic win on Alderaan and was suddenly named Grand Master of the Order. She was on the front lines for much of the Great Galactic War (the one that was ended by the Treaty of Coruscant) and particularly in the Battle of Rhen Var where she lead the Republic to victory after defeating Darth Mekhis, a member of the Dark Council.

 

So the idea that she's accomplished nothing is looking past quite a bit of her history. The problem is that by the time the events of the game occur she's already the Grand Master of the Order which reduces her participation in things dramatically. You have to look at the material from before the game to see her accomplishments, which are nothing to scoff at in my opinion. That's not to say she's the strongest Jedi in the game or anything, but she's far from a failure. Don't take my word for it though, here's her Wookieepedia page. All this information is there if you want to read it for yourself. In my opinion, she's far from being a failure.

Edited December 9, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[iankalo]

How can she be in the Jedi Order? She slept with some random ugly trooper guy .... Isnt this against the Jedi Code ... Edited December 9, 2015 by iankalo

[Morthion]

This is not correct.

Yoda is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order meaning he runs the whole show.

Mace is the leader of the Jedi Council, he runs the day to day affairs of the council while Yoda runs the entire order.

 

Thank you for the correction.

[Raphael_diSanto]

just to point something out. jedi are not celibate and celibacy is not a prerequisite. having physical relationship is fine. what they do preach is not giving in to love, romance, attachment.

 

and given how Satelle is dealing with her own son? she is most certainly practicing what she's preaching.

 

This, totally. Jedi are perfectly allowed to do the nasty with others. Just don't get attached. NSA for all!

 

(Hell, it's probably encouraged, especially between those with a more powerful connection to the force. Gotta breed the next generation of super-powerful Jedi)

Edited December 9, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[t-darko]

As noted, she was a padawan in the first trailer so her being saved by her master isn't exactly a knock on her. She was still training, so why are we shocked that she wasn't wrecking everything? The events of the Hope trailer (which I'll talk about next) were fourteen years later.

 

The trooper, though, that one you need some context for. Malcom didn't "save her". He distracted Malgus and gave her a reprieve, sure, but Satele had already "blocked" the attack Malgus was making at the time by repelling a stab from his lightsaber with her hand. When she and Malgus re-engaged, she didn't take him by surprise. He stood up, looked straight at her, ready to re-engage... and she promptly blew him into a mountain with the Force. She beat Malgus. The best you could do is argue that Malcom interfering "discredits" that, at which point I'd say she was holding her own with him until then so that plus her blowing him into a mountain qualifies as at least "coming close."

 

Also, it's good to note that the trooper who "saved" her was able to do so because she definitely saved him from being executed by the Sith, after racing across Alderaan to get to him. She then blew through several Sith and an Imperial War Droid on her way to Malgus to start that fight in the first place.

 

if you'd like to see this again, you're underselling her performance in this battle tremendously.

 

As for everything else, it seems like everybody is using her accomplishments in the cinematics and in game without considering anything else in between. It's not as if she helped the Republic win on Alderaan and was suddenly named Grand Master of the Order. She was on the front lines for much of the Great Galactic War (the one that was ended by the Treaty of Coruscant) and particularly in the Battle of Rhen Var where she lead the Republic to victory after defeating Darth Mekhis, a member of the Dark Council.

 

So the idea that she's accomplished nothing is looking past quite a bit of her history. The problem is that by the time the events of the game occur she's already the Grand Master of the Order which reduces her participation in things dramatically. You have to look at the material from before the game to see her accomplishments, which are nothing to scoff at in my opinion. That's not to say she's the strongest Jedi in the game or anything, but she's far from a failure. Don't take my word for it though, here's her Wookieepedia page. All this information is there if you want to read it for yourself. In my opinion, she's far from being a failure.

 

Don't overwork your argument, IF the OP for 1 sec was any, but interested in a pure lore argument he would probably go about this in some other rather fashion.

 

OP is a troll nothing more ...

Edited December 9, 2015 by t-darko

[ZanyaCross]

However, not only is she a hypocrite (she preaches celibacy even though she broke it herself and even had a child)

 

Stop right there. Seriously? You're using what she did when she was, what, twenty, twenty-five, against what she's preaching in her fifties?!

 

Dude, think about what kind of person you were twenty-five years ago. How values and priorities change.

 

Also, FYI, Jedi don't preach celibacy. They preach against forming emotional attachments. Otherwise family lines strong in the force would quickly die out and the Sith, even as much as they like to kill each-other, would outnumber them over time.

 

I get that she isn't a teen anymore, but that didn't stop Mace, Palpatine or Yoda.

 

No, but considering how completely stupidly Yoda and Palpatine were handled in the prequels, I don't even see why you would bring that noise up. No matter how skilled you become as you get older, your body just can't take the same kinda beating it used to. As Charles Barkly said, "when you're young working out made you strong, At 40 it just makes you tired.

 

Best media I ever saw handle this was in The Legend of Korra, where Toph, the most powerful Earth bender in the history of anything, was basically like, "I'm too old for this crap, this is your fight."

 

George Lucas having the ancient sage Yoda jumping around like a Gummy Bear was just made a dumb movie flat out embarrassing.

 

Not only that she just sits around doing nothing, as does the whole Council. She just gives orders and let other Jedi handle it instead of actually doing something.

 

And what happened to all those council members who decided to throw themselves into the action, taking on the Emperor, the Imp player characters, etc? If anything, just surviving this long puts her in the same league as Marr. Would you call him a failure?

 

She also doesn't seem that powerful, she got her butt kicked by Malgus twice until she began using the Force the last time she faced him.

 

The first time she faced him she was a padawan and Malgus was the monster the juggernaut that killed her master (and his own).

 

In the rematch not only did she block his lightsaber with her bare hands, she hadouken'd him through a mountain so hard he needs mechanical help breathing. And if that's not enough, take a look at what both of them look like now if there's any doubt about who won that fight.

 

She would lose quite fast in a duel against the 4 Force using classes as well.

 

You mean like Malgus did?

 

Isn't the Grand Master supposed to be the most powerful Jedi of all?

 

Umm, no. This isn't an anime. Even the sith expect a little more than brute strength and raw power before letting someone sit on the high-council.

 

She also doesn't seem that wise and her incompetence almost led to the destruction of the Jedi Order, twice...

 

Citation needed.

 

...while relying on other people to the saving.

 

Again, like Malgus and Marr did for all those FPs and Ops they sent you on?

 

Also, while we're on the subject of tactical brilliance, how about how Malgus decided that...

 

 

...the perfect time for a massive civil war would be while they were already in open war with the republic. Even the idiot grand moff you were answering to realizes how insane that is. Oh and let's not forget all that info he slipped to the republic to weaken his rivals at the expense of the war effort.

 

 

Not only that, after having a son she just left him and pretended he didn't exist like a coward instead of admitting her mistakes to the Jedi.

 

Yeah, couldn't possibly have been to protect him, right? Again, Malgus had a situation where a loved one could potentially be used against him. His solution was to kill her! Also, see the thing about "not forming attachments". If she'd stayed with Theron she'd have had to leave the order (and thanks, but way too many women as it is are expected to pick family over career, don't add her to it).

 

What does everyone else think?

 

I think you want to take a step back and reexamine why you are singling out Satele when she not only managed to outlive most of her compatriots, but avoid the blunders (if not outright insanity) of her counterparts on the other side. I have a feeling it's not really because of her skills.

Edited December 9, 2015 by ZanyaCross

[adormitul]

Yeah, couldn't possibly have been to protect him, right? Again, Malgus had a situation where a loved one could potentially be used against him. His solution was to kill her! Also, see the thing about "not forming attachments". If she'd stayed with Theron she'd have had to leave the order (and thanks, but way too many women as it is are expected to pick family over career, don't add her to it).

Then do not make kids if career is more important and if you did take responsibility for your actions. She did not even told the father of Theron that she had a child. Everything else I agree with but with this well no way in hell should that be understandable. **** it.

[IslanderRebel]

Naw, Theron's either a test tube baby or the latest in "Immaculate conceptions".

She probably got knocked up when she met Jace what's his name was fighting Malgus.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Also, while we're on the subject of tactical brilliance, how about how Malgus decided that...

 

 

...the perfect time for a massive civil war would be while they were already in open war with the republic. Even the idiot grand moff you were answering to realizes how insane that is. Oh and let's not forget all that info he slipped to the republic to weaken his rivals at the expense of the war effort.

 

 

This is a bit off topic from Satele but seriously, this. This has been my problem with Malgus as a character since my first run through Ilum and the subsequent Flashpoints. It's not his plan, exactly, that I have a problem with but rather his decision to announce said plan to both sides in a live broadcast that might as well have said "Come get me, guys!"

 

He started a war with both existing factions at the same time, right at the dawn of his new Empire, practically guaranteeing that both sides would drop what they were doing and go after him before he'd even had a chance to cement his Empire's position in the galaxy. He seemed to have better tactical instincts than that throughout the game, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that broadcast was the equivalent of putting a giant target on his head.

 

I really just cannot get over that, it's one of the worst tactical decisions I remember from the game up there with... well, almost everything Saresh has done.

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[DARTHOSIRUS]

As noted, she was a padawan in the first trailer so her being saved by her master isn't exactly a knock on her. She was still training, so why are we shocked that she wasn't wrecking everything? The events of the Hope trailer (which I'll talk about next) were fourteen years later.

 

The trooper, though, that one you need some context for. Malcom didn't "save her". He distracted Malgus and gave her a reprieve, sure, but Satele had already "blocked" the attack Malgus was making at the time by repelling a stab from his lightsaber with her hand. When she and Malgus re-engaged, she didn't take him by surprise. He stood up, looked straight at her, ready to re-engage... and she promptly blew him into a mountain with the Force. She beat Malgus. The best you could do is argue that Malcom interfering "discredits" that, at which point I'd say she was holding her own with him until then so that plus her blowing him into a mountain qualifies as at least "coming close."

 

Also, it's good to note that the trooper who "saved" her was able to do so because she definitely saved him from being executed by the Sith, after racing across Alderaan to get to him. She then blew through several Sith and an Imperial War Droid on her way to Malgus to start that fight in the first place.

 

if you'd like to see this again, you're underselling her performance in this battle tremendously.

 

As for everything else, it seems like everybody is using her accomplishments in the cinematics and in game without considering anything else in between. It's not as if she helped the Republic win on Alderaan and was suddenly named Grand Master of the Order. She was on the front lines for much of the Great Galactic War (the one that was ended by the Treaty of Coruscant) and particularly in the Battle of Rhen Var where she lead the Republic to victory after defeating Darth Mekhis, a member of the Dark Council.

 

So the idea that she's accomplished nothing is looking past quite a bit of her history. The problem is that by the time the events of the game occur she's already the Grand Master of the Order which reduces her participation in things dramatically. You have to look at the material from before the game to see her accomplishments, which are nothing to scoff at in my opinion. That's not to say she's the strongest Jedi in the game or anything, but she's far from a failure. Don't take my word for it though, here's her Wookieepedia page. All this information is there if you want to read it for yourself. In my opinion, she's far from being a failure.

 

Malgus may have stood up, but he was clearly not all there yet from having a grenade blow up in his face. She buried a stunned and disoriented Malgus under a mountain with a force blast. Without the trooper's interference she would be dead. There was only so long she could block his lightsaber. At this point in time she was far from his equal, but was capable of holding her own for a while.

Edited December 9, 2015 by DARTHOSIRUS

[Isnogut]

Blabla nonsense.

 

What does everyone else think?

What I think? i think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

There is no argument ever stated, that the Grandmaster has to be the most potent foceuser of the Jedi. It mostly happened though, bechause he/she has been chosen by the ammount of wisdom. And this wisdom also comes with more knowledge in the force. More knowledge in the Force means, you are more powerfull in the Force.

 

Jedi are not forbiden to have cildren nor mariages. They are forbiden to have emotional boldaries. This is a total different thing.

 

Satele was not handled by Malgus, but otherwise around. Even the first time, while she was only a Padawan she kept up with him beeing already a Lord. But she lacked of exprience. The second time on Alderan she actually has beaten him clearly. She is known by then as a skilled forceadept and Fighter.

 

As for her tactical mind, ... well actually I think Drew Kapisyn has little understanding with that overall, so any of his creations lack of this entirely. It's not like the protagonists/antagonists are practically numnuts, the author can't make them the belivable masterminds they actually have to be. They are all great interesting heroes in their own, great fighters, but no one was ever been described as a belivable intelligent one. They all have the same persona by the way.

[Isnogut]

Malgus may have stood up, but he was clearly not all there yet from having a grenade blow up in his face. She buried a stunned and disoriented Malgus under a mountain with a force blast. Without the trooper's interference she would be dead. There was only so long she could block his lightsaber. At this point in time she was far from his equal, but was capable of holding her own for a while.

You know, that's the thing in TOR overall. It'ts always about "luck" and never about skill of the protagonist/antagonist.

 

Kinda turns me masively off. She ist the Grandmaster and a skilled duellant, still needs the help of the Trooper. He was a skilled tactician and masterduellant, still needed help from a simple Twi'lek. We are the fraking Outlander, who has a stunnig story, and need a lot of help and luck to overcome Arkann.

 

It is always "but he/she didn't handle it alone" thing.

 

Thatfore I thin otherwise. What if there were a fair and square duell between Malgus and Satele, who would have won? I don't know. I don't care. What I kow is, they were absolutely mached on Alderaan.

[ZanyaCross]

You know, that's the thing in TOR overall. It'ts always about "luck" and never about skill of the protagonist/antagonist.

 

"All great events hang by a hair, I believe in luck, and the wise man neglects nothing which contributes to his destiny." - Napoleon Bonaparte

[RayceUlrand]

I'm seeing a whole lot of, "Satele would have died if not for Jace!" when it's not implied whatsoever that her death was as imminent as it was in the Return trailer. She was holding back his saber and Malgus was pressing the advantage because he had it. Losing her saber and being put in that position doesn't mean she was going to die--not even close. I'm not saying Malgus couldn't have killed her, it's just that a lot of people think she was 100% done for. That power she used to finish him off after Jace stunned him with the grenade suggests she wasn't as helpless as people seem to believe. Edited December 9, 2015 by RayceUlrand

[lukewarcriminal]

I'm seeing a whole lot of, "Satele would have died if not for Jace!" when it's not implied whatsoever that her death was as imminent as it was in the Return trailer. She was holding back his saber and Malgus was pressing the advantage because he had it. Losing her saber and being put in that position doesn't mean she was going to die--not even close. I'm not saying Malgus couldn't have killed her, it's just that a lot of people think she was 100% done for. That power she used to finish him off after Jace stunned him with the grenade suggests she wasn't as helpless as people seem to believe.

 

she was done'zo.

[BrianDavion]

she (is) a hypocrite (she preaches celibacy even though she broke it herself and even had a child),

 

and promptly gave the child up for adoption and admits it was an error to break the code.